OT Best Athlete to come out of Western PA?

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

On another Pitt site, there is a debate on the best athlete to come out of Western PA. I understand to make a "debate" you have to have choices. So the OP brought up Terrelle Pryor because he was so dominant in so many sports. Of which I respond "in HS, and two sports". No doubting Pryor's pure athletic ability which is immense. The blockhead wrestling faction were nominating wrestlers. Again, no knocking their training and discipline, their dedication to their craft. Lb for Lb maybe the strongest and most fit athletes. But ever see them try and play BB? Or golf?

A lot of people brought up guys like Ditka, Clancy, track stars John Woodward and Clinton Davis, Brian Davis, Major Harris. Marino and Montana also were noted. And of course, Tony Dorsett.

But there is only one choice. In fact, any topic or debate should always be prefaced with "Other than XXXXXXXX, who is the best athlete to come out of Western PA?" And that XXXXXXXXX is none other than Dick Groat.

Think back to the OP's choice of Terrelle Pryor, who "excelled at many sports". Really? Where? In Jeannette HS? He was a fine college QB, but was he a Heisman trophy winner?

Dick Groat was two time All American at Duke. At PG. He was player of the year. He was the #3 OVERALL pick in the NBA draft. His number is retired and hangs from the rafters at Duke.

He was a 5 time All Star, and NL MVP at Shortstop in MLB, part of the 1960 World Champion Pittsburgh Pirates.

Now that is excelling at multiple sports at the highest of levels. Because of that, and granted the PG and SS position in each sport are probably the most demanding and athletic. It is no debate, it is no contest. Everyone else is vying for second place.

 

[wbrpanther]

Great minds think alike. As I started reading your post the name Dick Groat popped into my mind. The guy was a NL MVP and played shortstop on 2 World Series winners with two different teams in his second best sport.

At Duke he was an AA twice and National player of the year. Terrell Pryor? Give me a break.

 

[TheOldPanther]

Who could argue with your choice, I wouldn't, I never saw him play BB but did see him play at old Forbes field and he excelled period.

 

[King Of All Message Boards]

I'd agree with Groat as well. Very accomplished. Off the top of my head Major Harris would be in the mix for second. He was a much better basketball player than a lot of people know or remember (could have played D1). And probably less known was the he was also a helluva baseball player but gave it up fairly early.

 

[Las Panteras]

Dick Groat, going away.

The real discussion should be, "who is the second greatest athlete" to come out this area.

 

[Pitt79]

Sam Clancy was great at two major sports as well, basketball at Pitt, then played in the USFL and NFL after not playing football in high school.

 

[Las Panteras]

Originally posted by King Of All Message Boards:
I'd agree with Groat as well. Very accomplished. Off the top of my head Major Harris would be in the mix for second. He was a much better basketball player than a lot of people know or remember (could have played D1). And probably less known was the he was also a helluva baseball player but gave it up fairly early.

No, Major Harris would not be in the discussion

Stan Musial is one of the 10 greatest baseball players of all time. What most do not know is he was one of the best basketball players to come out of Pennsylvania......and he was going to play basket ball at Pitt.

His father....from the old country...knew the value of education and demanded his son go to Pitt.

It was only when a trusted friend of the family convinced Musial's father that his son wasnt just another baseball hopeful that he relented....and let his son sign with the Cards.

As an aside, When Musial enlisted in the service, one of the guys in his squad...who became Musial's closest friend in the military was the uncle of future National League MVP Keith Hernandez.

 

[WpialHSFB]

Joe Montana?

Great athlete (pretty sure he had D1 offers in basketball), but obviously focused only on football. Joe Montana is in discussion as one of the greatest NFL players of all time. Montana is more highly regarded in football than Groat was in any sport he played. Not saying I disagree because what defines the "best athlete" is highly subjective, but you'd have to include Joe Montana in the discussion.

 

[Las Panteras]

Re: Joe Montana?

Originally posted by WpialHSFB:
Great athlete (pretty sure he had D1 offers in basketball), but obviously focused only on football. Joe Montana is in discussion as one of the greatest NFL players of all time. Montana is more highly regarded in football than Groat was in any sport he played. Not saying I disagree because what defines the "best athlete" is highly subjective, but you'd have to include Joe Montana in the discussion.

Absolutely agree.

Montana was part of some really good Ringgold hoops teams and a pretty good baseball player as well.

In fact, Montana gets my vote as number 2 behind Groat

 

[NTOP]

My vote is for Dwight Collins from Beaver Falls.

FB, hoops (Dapper Dan PG), baseball, track. Gifted, but a bit goofy.

Groat was before my time here, but he was a great MLB player. Don't recall his hoops career....too Philly-centric back then, I guess.

 

[Pitt79]

Is this about high school? or is it about pro accomplishments? or what? How could Major Harris be in the mix,he never made it pro in anything, except 2 years of Arena Football.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Originally posted by Pitt79:

Sam Clancy was great at two major sports as well, basketball at Pitt, then played in the USFL and NFL after not playing football in high school.

He was good at two major sports. Groat again was National Player of the year and the #3 overall pick in the NBA in baskerball and 5 time all star and MVP in baseball.

Sam Clancy merely being good is not close. Not close.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Re: Joe Montana?

Originally posted by Las Panteras:

Originally posted by WpialHSFB:
Great athlete (pretty sure he had D1 offers in basketball), but obviously focused only on football. Joe Montana is in discussion as one of the greatest NFL players of all time. Montana is more highly regarded in football than Groat was in any sport he played. Not saying I disagree because what defines the "best athlete" is highly subjective, but you'd have to include Joe Montana in the discussion.

Absolutely agree.

Montana was part of some really good Ringgold hoops teams and a pretty good baseball player as well.

In fact, Montana gets my vote as number 2 behind Groat

I can go for that. But the key word is "behind Groat".

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Re: My vote is for Dwight Collins from Beaver Falls.

Originally posted by NTOP:
FB, hoops (Dapper Dan PG), baseball, track. Gifted, but a bit goofy.

Groat was before my time here, but he was a great MLB player. Don't recall his hoops career....too Philly-centric back then, I guess.

That is a stupid argument. Before your time, hell he is before all our time. You watch Pitt BB, right? You have seen Groat's number hanging from the rafters at Cameron? There is a tool called "GOOGLE", Google Dick Groat and Google Dwight Collins.

Come back to me with the argument of DC over Groat?

 

[Las Panteras]

Re: My vote is for Dwight Collins from Beaver Falls.



This post was edited on 3/27 1:26 PM by Las Panteras

 

[King Of All Message Boards]

Re: My vote is for Dwight Collins from Beaver Falls.

Major is certainly in the discussion of you're including Pryor if this is just about great athletes. If being a pro is the bar then certainly he's out. But I saw him up close many times and he was unbelievable. I believe he'd have played pro football had he changed positions. One of the big reasons he went to WVU was that they'd allow him to play QB. He had a huge windup which cost him in the pros. But purely on athletic ability he was something else.

This post was edited on 3/27 1:32 PM by King Of All Message Boards

This post was edited on 3/27 1:39 PM by King Of All Message Boards

 

[King Of All Message Boards]

Re: Joe Montana?

Originally posted by WpialHSFB:
Great athlete (pretty sure he had D1 offers in basketball), but obviously focused only on football. Joe Montana is in discussion as one of the greatest NFL players of all time. Montana is more highly regarded in football than Groat was in any sport he played. Not saying I disagree because what defines the "best athlete" is highly subjective, but you'd have to include Joe Montana in the discussion.

I think your last statement nails it. When I think of great athlete I think of speed,arm, jumping ability and just overall physical abilities. Pryor and Major were sick athletes. Clearly the specific skills to make them pro QBs weren't there. But there are tons of guys who played a lot of years in the NFL that weren't half the athletes these 2 were in the way I think of athlete in my mind.

 

[FreeportPanther]

Best Hoops player: Pistol Pete Maravich......

If they had the 3 point shot when he played, he'd have a scoring record no one could touch. He was a magician with the ball, and may have been a better passer than shooter. His teammates had bruises where his no look passes hit them when they weren't ready.

 

[mdpitt]

Lavar Arrington was incredible as a running back.I think if he

stayed on offense, he would win.

I can honestly say he was a Freak in High School like I have never witnessed since. Incredible college player but never really was a team player in the NFL. He hit like a Tank.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Again... the guys you are bringing up are no doubt great athletes, but none made impacts on two major sports at such high levels.

You aren't getting this. NL MVP and 5 Time All Star. 2 time All American and Player of the year.

Think Andrew McCutcheon and Jason Williams (Duke).

Dick Groat was both of these guys.

 

[NTOP]

Owt...take your meds. All I said was I didn't recall Groat's .

hoops career from personal observation.

And I'll stick with Collins......anybody else go All-State in 3 sports + maybe in baseball?? 2nd round NFL pick, after a shortened Pitt career. 4-year starter at center (6-0) for BF, all-state, there. Picked to run the point for the PA vs. US Dapper Dan squad. I believe he led the PA team in scoring. Won a couple PIAA golds in the 100 & 220. I think he just spoofed around in baseball, but was really good.

The question wasn't "most-decorated athlete", or most loved, or most recent. Collins was an outstanding 4-sport athlete. Hell, #13 was all-conference in hoops & a MLB draftee. He deserves to be in the conversation.

Sorry if I had an opinion based on ACTUAL observation.

 

[King Of All Message Boards]

Larry Zbyszko is going into the hall of fame this weekend.

 

[Somerset Panther]

you can only say one thing to that......WOOOOOOOWWWW

nm

 

[TempleBAPittMPA]

What's been ignored in the Groat discussion is that in basketball, he was not only an All-American, but he also played in the NBA (several seasons with the Pistons before they moved to Detroit). He was actually juggling two pro sports before it eventually became too demanding and he opted for baseball.

 

[HunkyPanther]

Clinton Davis...although not the best athlete, but a freak of track talent cut short when he broke both legs in a car wreck. Haven't heard that name in a long time.

 

[dchst23]

I know he is a Nitter and he did not have much of a pro career, but Lavar Arrington needs to be in the discussion.

 

[KTP]

One thing that must be taken into consideration and it's not a knock on Groats accomplishments but the time that this happened. That was 50-60 years ago sports have changed. Specialization has taken over focus on one sport year around practice expanded overlapping schedules. All of these need to be taken into consideration. A kid like Pryor we will never know what he could have accomplished on the basketball court because it is impossible now on the D1/P5 level to be a multi sport athletes. And this doesn't even consider the influence of the international athlete on professional sports and the competition that this adds. The percentage of baseball players from foreign countries in MLB has raised the competitive bar to even reach the majors to such a high level there is no comparison to MLB for half a century ago. And now the same thing is happening in the NBA with European players.

So while I will agree that what DG accomplished in his era was amazing and we have to remember that he accomplished this in the situation that was established in that era against the best available of that era. To not take into consideration the changes in sports and demands and competition placed on the modern athlete it makes the argument a moot point.

 

[pittjd06]

Re: Joe Montana?

Recalling the biography project I did on joe Montana in 8th grade, he had an offer to play hoops at NC state which he strongly considered.

Groat wins the discussion, but Montana is close. He doesn't have the accolades in a second sport because he gave it up, but his single-sport supremacy makes it a tight race. IMO, and I think the consensus (though probably not on this Board where Marino is the sentimental choice) is that Montana is the GOAT, and that goes a long way.

Originally posted by WpialHSFB:
Great athlete (pretty sure he had D1 offers in basketball), but obviously focused only on football. Joe Montana is in discussion as one of the greatest NFL players of all time. Montana is more highly regarded in football than Groat was in any sport he played. Not saying I disagree because what defines the "best athlete" is highly subjective, but you'd have to include Joe Montana in the discussion.

 

[daytonpanther]

OT Best Athlete to come out of Western PA? Ditka excelled at his sports

and all of PA would begin with Jim Thorpe. I am assuming we are discussing Male athletes. Modern era might include Montana, Marino, Groat, and Dorsett. I think Joe Schmidt played multiple-sports.

One could add best W. PA born coach at national level?

 

[Coultr77]

Kurt Angle? Read his Wikipedia page before you say no.

 

[anon_vmuicqnzlyp3u]

Gotta go with Dick Groat.

 

[daminals76]

Brian Davis

Brian Davis going away... Nobody else is even close.

 

[wbrpanther]

So if it was easier back then why didn't more guys do it? The point is he didn't just play two major sports as many athletes today could. He EXCELLED at two major sports, getting to the very top in each.

 

[quip]

It has to be Aliquippa native Pistol Pete Maravich. He averaged over 40 points per game for his career without the 3 point shot at LSU!

 

[KTP]

And I'm not saying he wasn't a great athlete but to say it was just as difficult then as now just isn't true. It's like looking at babe Ruth's numbers and not aknowleding that he never played against an African American player isn't being honest. Every era has it's distinct differences that make it unique. How could anyone now play NBA and MLB at the same time. NBA season runs to June for the finals. And with cross country travel and conflicting schedules it would be impossible. It's impossible to do it in college. It's one of those things that will never be duplicated and one can argue it's because of the players but I would argue we will never know because no franchise would allow it anymore.

And to your second point as to why no one else did it if it was so easy. I never said it was easy to do back then just it was much less difficult to do then than now also financially back then most professional athletes held down off season jobs just to support their families.

 

[ricflair4LIFE]

Billy Conn. Boxing.

 

[Joe Pa Thetic]

Nothing against Billy Conn, but if you are going to list a boxer, Harry Greb ("The Pittsburgh Windmill") was a far more accomplished Pittsburgh boxer. The Ring magazine rated Greb as the fifth greatest boxer of all time. Bert Sugar has Greb rated No. 1 all-time at middleweight and No. 5 all-time pound for pound. Greb was the only man to defeat Gene Tunney.

Greb is almost always listed among the top 5-10 all-time pound for pound by boxing historians. Conn was light-heavyweight champion and became iconic for getting knocked out while ahead on points in the first Louis fight, but he was not as big an all-time great as Greb.




This post was edited on 3/28 4:20 PM by Joe Pa Thetic

 

[Las Panteras]

Originally posted by quip:
It has to be Aliquippa native Pistol Pete Maravich. He averaged over 40 points per game for his career without the 3 point shot at LSU!

Question......

How many high school games did Maravich play in western Pa?

Since he left this area at age 10.....and starred at a high school in south Carolina......the answer is zero.

I would say that pistol Pete was every bit as much the greatest from this area as I was.. Which is to say he isn't even in the discussion.

D minus
This post was edited on 3/28 4:32 PM by Las Panteras

 

[Pitt is #1]

Does professional wrestling even count as a sport?...lol

 

[ricflair4LIFE]

Originally posted by Joe Pa Thetic:
Nothing against Billy Conn, but if you are going to list a boxer, Harry Greb ("The Pittsburgh Windmill") was a far more accomplished Pittsburgh boxer. The Ring magazine rated Greb as the fifth greatest boxer of all time. Bert Sugar has Greb rated No. 1 all-time at middleweight and No. 5 all-time pound for pound. Greb was the only man to defeat Gene Tunney.

Greb is almost always listed among the top 5-10 all-time pound for pound by boxing historians. Conn was light-heavyweight champion and became iconic for getting knocked out while ahead on points in the first Louis fight, but he was not as big an all-time great as Greb.




This post was edited on 3/28 4:20 PM by Joe Pa Thetic

Joe, you're correct. Greb was better. I was thinking about the Joe Louis fight which he could have one. That was against one of the best heavyweights of all time.

My first thoughts were to name Larry Holmes or Bernard Hopkins. But they're from E. PA. Never thinking about Grebs.