OT: Pens Epitaph Of Sorts....the core!!

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Relax folks! The "CORE" is not going anywhere. No matter what happens, at least we will always have "THE CORE". Other than ticket sales (and trust me, that is hugely important to a mostly gate driven league) is keeping "THE CORE" all that necessary.

I purposely waited almost a week to write this, to let the sting of another early playoff dismissal wear off. But trust me, I don't really consider this year's playoff exit to be premature. It was basically fait accompli in late March as the Pens limped and backed into the 8th spot, to face probably the worst possible opponent. So the 4-1 closer than it seems but not really series loss to the Rangers was expected. By all. This was not a playoff failure. 8th seeds are supposed to lose to #1 seeds.

But how they lost. Marc Andre Fleury for the second losing series in a row, deserved a better fate. Perhaps if he played like this in 2010 or 2012, the Pens may have had another cup. But these numbers don't lie.....in fact, I think they speak nothing but the truth, and that truth is not kind to the TWO HEADED MONSTER. 2013, Lost to Boston in a 4 Game Sweep. In 2014 up 3 games to 1, lost the last 3 games, scoring a total of 3 goals. And this year, in a 4-1 series loss to the Rangers, the Pens scored exactly 4 goals (makes for easy math) in their 4 losses. That is let me count....9 goals in.....11 games. Not by the TWO HEADED MONSTER, but by the Pens, the team. The one game they won this year 4-3, Sid scored 2 goals. The PP actually scored 2 goals, but it was the SECOND PP that scored them.

In the last 7 OT games in the playoffs, the Pens are 0 fer 7, despite having two of the best offensive players on the planet. Geno Malkin is scoreless in his last 19 games. He has 1 PP goal in his last 50 games. I think Steve Downie had at least 1. Sid Crosby until game 2 of this series had 1 goal in 13 playoff games. The PP was bad with these guys or without them. Yet, it is always about their teammates. Their teammates didn't get it done. They need wingers! Okay, agree. Agree with all of the flaws and how they were constructed by previous and current regime. Poor drafting, bad trades, live for the moment, win now, worry later, etc....

Still, the TWO HEADED MONSTER doesn't shoot enough. Not on 5 on 5, not on the PP. Perhaps if they would shoot more, if they would take the puck to the net to borrow a basketball term, they wouldn't always have to rely on wingers finishing perimeter passes. I am sure Bylsma, Johnston, Shero, Rutherford, Lemieux, the fans, have implored these two to SHOOOOOOT, but they refuse to. Add Letang who has all the skills, but questionable hockey IQ, at least on the PP...and skill is no longer the preferred method of success in this league.

It is an ugly hockey league. Depth, crashing the net, speed, physicality and depth, did I mention depth? The Pens don't have this. They don't have it on the farm. This free agent class is pathetic. They have little trade chips. The game has changed since 87 and 71 came into the league. It has slid back to the trap era, and even beyond. Am I advocating trading Sid or Geno? Maybe. But what is ludicrous is to outright dismiss it, because the results aren't there. IT IS NOT WORKING! We can dismiss this year to injuries, but what about last year? Or the year before? Or the year before that? Sid and Geno should be the X factor, the two guys that push us over the top. Come playoff time, at least against the tougher defensive teams, they are almost invisible most of the time. Where are the big goals? All that happens is the sycophant Pens friendly media make excuses and blame everyone BUT these two guys. It is always "injured".

I am not comparing them to Mario Lemieux, no one can compare to him aside from 99, but a big goal to win a playoff game would be nice. $18 million in cap room, but we blame a Kunitz or the 3rd line, why can't these other guys convert these wondrous passes from the TWO HEADED MONSTER into goals? How about why can't the TWO HEADED MONSTER put some shots on goal and score a goal themselves?

Sid was okay in the Ranger series this year, a bit unlucky as he hit some posts. Geno was invisible. Geno was okay last year in the Ranger series, Sid was invisible. Both were invisible against the Bruins in 2013. TRADE THEM! Well the problem is, trade them to whom? For what? You are not going to get like in return? I am not sure they are tradeable at this point. There in lies the problem. I am tired of the excuses for these two guys. It is time they stop playing on the perimeter, stop trying to be pretty and focus on the end result and only the end result. If that means Geno taking 10 shots a game and Sid 10 shots a game, so be it.

The Pens are in this situation because of those two specifically and the CORE definitely. Time for them to do some soul searching and leadership.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

One other thing, I would advocate trading one of the two (Malkin) if they could. But I doubt if they can. Why? Because it has not worked. And hasn't worked for awhile.

 

[JohnnyGossamer]

I wouldn't trade either. Injuries seemed to plague the roster this season. And, with the cap, it's more competitive than ever. Unlike the NBA, having a few freak ballers isn't answer. And, unfortunately, Malkin and Crosby are not Lebron James. Aside from capturing the cup, Pens are starting to smell like the OKC Thunder. Crap injuries at bad times are hindering their ability to make a real run. The real question is becoming will Sid and/or Geno participate in another SCF? I think so. But, I'm not nearly as confident as I once was...

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

Well, it's certainly no surprise that you have ended up on this narrative. After all, you announced to all of us this would be your conclusion weeks before the first game was played.

We've been through this before. People can blame the big guns all they like but Pittsburgh won't trade the core players and nor should they because it would be imbecilic to do so unless one's aim is to position the franchise well for next year's draft lottery.

Let's be real, Pittsburgh is not going to trade Crosby pretty much no matter what. He remains the sport's best player and trading him would be catastrophically stupid on basically every level. If Pittsburgh trades Malkin, given the salary cap restrictions, what realistically are they going to get back in return? I'm guessing LESS than what they got for Jagr when they dumped him for a back of pucks and some windex.

People say, "Trade them all. It's not working." How would anyone know what Johnston can do with a healthy team? He has never had one in his stay in Pittsburgh.

That is especially true on the heels of a playoff ouster in which Pittsburgh lost four 2-1 games against a relatively healthy Rangers team; while Pittsburgh was without three of its top four defensemen and without one of its few productive wingers. And that is without even getting into Malkin's injuries or the loss of Pouliot.

I'm sorry but if the shoe were on the other foot and Pittsburgh came in completely healthy and New York was without McDonaugh, Girardi, Staal, and say Stepan, I would like our chances against them an awful lot. Hell, they lost Zucarello - who is comparable to Dupuis, IMHO - and the media is treating it like a catastrophe.

The Islanders lost Hamonic, Visnovski, and de Hann - their three, four and six - and people are bending over backwards to give them a pass. However, Pittsburgh plays most of its season without its one, three and four and that's just how it goes? Injuries are no excuse?

Bullshitt. Of course injuries were the primary reason for Pittsburgh's struggles all season long. That is not to say they were our only issues but the line forms behind the injury factor.

At some point people around this town - even the esteemed hockey geniuses among us - are going to finally piece together the great mystery that hockey - like football - is all about depth. Look around the league and you will find that the teams that advance have scoring depth. That, in turn, frees up the top players - like Crosby and Malkin - to dominate like they always have when given the opportunity. However, when you only have three or four guys in the lineup even capable of scoring - 16, 71, 72, and 87 is our entire list - it is not difficult to figure out how to defend your team. Sell out on those four guys and take your chances with everyone else. That is what they did and it obviously worked like a charm.

In a salary cap league, when you have two players on such large contracts as we do (and a third big ticket with Letang), you need some entry level deals on the ledger to counterbalance those deals. Chicago is also about to learn that lesson.

Unfortunately, our IDIOT former GM - who really skates far too often for too many fans - screwed up all of those things. His successor inexplicably then traded away three of our top four picks for this year's draft, which means we still haven't learned our lesson.

While Chicago is bringing in guys like Andrew Shaw and Bandon Saad on very club friendly deals, we were overpaying for guys like Jarome Iginla, David Perron and Alexei Ponikarovski, all of whom basically did nothing.

Beau Bennett is not an NHL forward and may never become one. He should have definitely stayed in WBS for at least another year or two. He is still way too thin to win puck battles at this level and he simply doesn't compete hard enough consistently enough. Just gifting him a top six role - as they tried to do - was a HUGE mistake because he is clearly not ready for that responsibility.

Winnik did little and Perron did less. I hated both of those trades at the time and I hate them more in retrospect. Perron was playing on Edmonton's third line when we gave them a first round pick for him. That is unreal. Winnik was overrated by virtue of the fact that he was one of the few Leafs who had not quit on Carlyle. Again, Pittsburgh played him a lot on its TOP line. These guys were bottom six forwards on two of the worst teams in the NHL and here they each saw a ton of top six minutes. If that doesn't SCREAM depth problems, I don't know what does?

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

Finally, I will fault Johnston for one thing: the team's lack of discipline - which was a season-long issue. We led the league in PIMs and that is unacceptable for a team that has two of the best players in the league on its roster but neither of whom kills penalties (which they should).

If anyone can convince me of Steve Downey's value, I'd love to hear it because for the life of me I just cannot fathom what a guy like that brings to a team other than the opportunity to frequently work on its penalty kill?

People say he makes the Pens tougher to play against. However, that simply isn't true unless you somehow believe that teams like it when Malkin and Crosby are on the ice more frequently and that they hate having the man advantage. He is a MORON - one of the dumbest Penguins in team history - and he should be gone immediately. If Tocchet protests, send him packing too. It was his idea to bring that idiot aboard because he could control him. Well, the guy led the league in PIMs so how well did that experiment work out?

Don't get me wrong, I am all for having chippy forwards in your bottom six who make like miserable for their opponents and goad them into mistakes and penalties. However, that requires discipline and Downey displayed absolutely no discipline whatsoever this year. He would be traded away immediately if it were up to me. I'd take a low draft pick for the guy just to get rid of him.

Perron is another guy who would have to go. He is slow, selfish and HORRENDOUS in his own end. He doesn't fit this team or this system in any way and if he is back next year I predict it will look a lot like it did for most of this year.

Also, it is time to offer CBO's to Scuderi and Kunitz. Scuderi was not bad this year until he was forced to play too many minutes. However, he makes too much money for a bottom six D and we need that money. With so many young D knocking at the door, it is time to move on.

Kunitz has lost a step or two and it is also time for him to go. He is still a smart player and unlike Downey, he really is tough to play against. However, he is no longer a top six winger at this level; and if he's not in our top six, he makes too much money to justify keeping around.

My hope is that Kapanen and Sundqvist are ready to contribute and I think the latter might be ready. I am not so sure about the Finn - at least not yet. I fear he may still be another year or two away from being ready.

 

[vegasgreed]

JR will not be able to fix this.

What has the "CORE" done in the last several years?

 

[pittdan77]

Malkin was hurt that's why he played so bad, right? But Russia needs him to win another World Championship so he goes. Nothing to see here...

 

[Pitt79]

Malkin was hurt that's why he played so bad, right? But Russia needs him to win another World Championship so he goes. Nothing to see here...

I'm glad he's going, hopefully he'll play well and get some confidence back.

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

JR will not be able to fix this.

What has the "CORE" done in the last several years?

They made the conference finals two years ago and last year they lost in seven games to the league's runner up. Their struggles have been grossly exaggerated.

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

Malkin was hurt that's why he played so bad, right? But Russia needs him to win another World Championship so he goes. Nothing to see here...

Yeah, Malkin was clearly healthy. That is why he missed all those games. The fact that he's playing in the World Championships proves that he was healthy all along. We should run him out of town and take our chances with a bunch of prospects.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Well, it's certainly no surprise that you have ended up on this narrative. After all, you announced to all of us this would be your conclusion weeks before the first game was played.

We've been through this before. People can blame the big guns all they like but Pittsburgh won't trade the core players and nor should they because it would be imbecilic to do so unless one's aim is to position the franchise well for next year's draft lottery.

Let's be real, Pittsburgh is not going to trade Crosby pretty much no matter what. He remains the sport's best player and trading him would be catastrophically stupid on basically every level. If Pittsburgh trades Malkin, given the salary cap restrictions, what realistically are they going to get back in return? I'm guessing LESS than what they got for Jagr when they dumped him for a back of pucks and some windex.

People say, "Trade them all. It's not working." How would anyone know what Johnston can do with a healthy team? He has never had one in his stay in Pittsburgh.

That is especially true on the heels of a playoff ouster in which Pittsburgh lost four 2-1 games against a relatively healthy Rangers team; while Pittsburgh was without three of its top four defensemen and without one of its few productive wingers. And that is without even getting into Malkin's injuries or the loss of Pouliot.

I'm sorry but if the shoe were on the other foot and Pittsburgh came in completely healthy and New York was without McDonaugh, Girardi, Staal, and say Stepan, I would like our chances against them an awful lot. Hell, they lost Zucarello - who is comparable to Dupuis, IMHO - and the media is treating it like a catastrophe.

The Islanders lost Hamonic, Visnovski, and de Hann - their three, four and six - and people are bending over backwards to give them a pass. However, Pittsburgh plays most of its season without its one, three and four and that's just how it goes? Injuries are no excuse?

Bullshitt. Of course injuries were the primary reason for Pittsburgh's struggles all season long. That is not to say they were our only issues but the line forms behind the injury factor.

At some point people around this town - even the esteemed hockey geniuses among us - are going to finally piece together the great mystery that hockey - like football - is all about depth. Look around the league and you will find that the teams that advance have scoring depth. That, in turn, frees up the top players - like Crosby and Malkin - to dominate like they always have when given the opportunity. However, when you only have three or four guys in the lineup even capable of scoring - 16, 71, 72, and 87 is our entire list - it is not difficult to figure out how to defend your team. Sell out on those four guys and take your chances with everyone else. That is what they did and it obviously worked like a charm.

In a salary cap league, when you have two players on such large contracts as we do (and a third big ticket with Letang), you need some entry level deals on the ledger to counterbalance those deals. Chicago is also about to learn that lesson.

Unfortunately, our IDIOT former GM - who really skates far too often for too many fans - screwed up all of those things. His successor inexplicably then traded away three of our top four picks for this year's draft, which means we still haven't learned our lesson.

While Chicago is bringing in guys like Andrew Shaw and Bandon Saad on very club friendly deals, we were overpaying for guys like Jarome Iginla, David Perron and Alexei Ponikarovski, all of whom basically did nothing.

Beau Bennett is not an NHL forward and may never become one. He should have definitely stayed in WBS for at least another year or two. He is still way too thin to win puck battles at this level and he simply doesn't compete hard enough consistently enough. Just gifting him a top six role - as they tried to do - was a HUGE mistake because he is clearly not ready for that responsibility.

Winnik did little and Perron did less. I hated both of those trades at the time and I hate them more in retrospect. Perron was playing on Edmonton's third line when we gave them a first round pick for him. That is unreal. Winnik was overrated by virtue of the fact that he was one of the few Leafs who had not quit on Carlyle. Again, Pittsburgh played him a lot on its TOP line. These guys were bottom six forwards on two of the worst teams in the NHL and here they each saw a ton of top six minutes. If that doesn't SCREAM depth problems, I don't know what does?

Good hockey talk Doc. Lots to digest. Again, I am not focusing strictly on the Ranger series, but the last 3 year's specifically with arguably 2 of the 5 best offensive hockey players in the world and scoring 9 goals (as a team) in 11 losing games in those series. I am sorry, you can make a lot of excuses, but that is just way too hard to ignore. Way to hard to ignore, excuse and dismiss. And way too hard to blame the other players. They get paid because they are the talents. Right now, they are Bonds/Bonilla from the 90-92 Bucco playoff years. YOU, or ANYONE ELSE cannot refute this. And you can't excuse this.

As for the hockey stuff.....yeah. Agree lots of what you say. What I would do is in another upcoming post.

I wouldn't trade Sid., I would trade Geno, but you can't. Not now, not anymore. There just is no viable trade partners that would make sense. The return, even not expecting a player close to his talent in return would not make sense. So you can't. But that is how you get depth. As to why we don't have more depth, well you have highlighted a lot of that above. But you know. We all do. Again, another post. But Doc, you are making excuses for this year. What about last year? What about the year before? I mean this Sid and Geno, 87 and 71. I don't care if other defenses are geared to stop them. If they are the superstars we believe them to be, they have to sometimes work through it and score some big goals. I have what Owt would do if he is in charge later on. But I appreciate your thought out responses on this, I really do.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Malkin was hurt that's why he played so bad, right? But Russia needs him to win another World Championship so he goes. Nothing to see here...

Hey, if Malkin goes over there and recruits Russian winger Artemi Panarin then it might be worth it.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

They made the conference finals two years ago and last year they lost in seven games to the league's runner up. Their struggles have been grossly exaggerated.

9 goals in 11 losing games in their final series. That is not grossly exaggerating anything.

 

[SoufOaklin4Life]

Von yinzer with the only rational thoughts so far.
#cloneHorndquist

 

[SoufOaklin4Life]

If downie would attempt to cripple anyone who takes a shot at our stars , I could see his value , since he actually has some skills.

But he doesn't , he takes bad selfish penalties .

He's an undisciplined version of Matthew barnaby.

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

I just watched Tampa Bay defeat Detroit. Steven Stamkos, one of the game's top two snipers, was held off the scoresheet for all seven games of that series. Detroit literally assigned a guy to hook and hold Stamkos wherever he went on the ice. It was blatant obstruction, which for some reason is never called in the playoffs.

However, the Lightning prevailed anyway. Why? Because they have tremendous scoring depth, that's why.

Now, people will laud Stamkos for being a great leader and willing his team to victory through intangibles and all this other horseshit. However, the truth is the difference between him now and in previous years is he now has guys like Johnson and Palat and Killorn and Hedman and a bunch of other guys to help them win even when the other team focuses all of its energies on shutting down the Tampa Bay star.

I wish Pittsburgh had the depth that Tampa Bay possesses. If it did, they would still be playing and would be a real threat to come out of the East and play for the Stanley Cup.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

I just watched Tampa Bay defeat Detroit. Steven Stamkos, one of the game's top two snipers, was held off the scoresheet for all seven games of that series. Detroit literally assigned a guy to hook and hold Stamkos wherever he went on the ice. It was blatant obstruction, which for some reason is never called in the playoffs.

However, the Lightning prevailed anyway. Why? Because they have tremendous scoring depth, that's why.

Now, people will laud Stamkos for being a great leader and willing his team to victory through intangibles and all this other horseshit. However, the truth is the difference between him now and in previous years is he now has guys like Johnson and Palat and Killorn and Hedman and a bunch of other guys to help them win even when the other team focuses all of its energies on shutting down the Tampa Bay star.

I wish Pittsburgh had the depth that Tampa Bay possesses. If it did, they would still be playing and would be a real threat to come out of the East and play for the Stanley Cup.

Again, we loaded up in 2013 and were shut out by the Bruins. Almost literally. Again, "the TWO HEADED MONSTER" has to be better in big games/series. That is why they are here and why they are paid.

And Toews and Kane are the top scoring forwards in the post season since 2009. And their success has shown.

 

[geeman2001]

Fairness dictates they give this management group a chance with all the tier 1 players healthy for a full season.

That said, Malkin has increasingly become marginalized in his effectiveness and would be a good candidate to move for the right mix of picks and role players.

However, star players are important for selling tickets here as you said, and if Letang and Maatta and Depuis all appear to be iffy to return, Malkin may be valuable to keep for that reason. If yinzers can't crow about their team being #1, they demand that they at least can crow about having "the best" players.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

IF I WAS THE GM/DECISION MAKER FOR THE PENS......Here is what I would do, within reason and the likely decisions the Pens have made. Meaning I am Jim Rutherford.

1) Establish a rule first and foremost to NOT offer term on contracts over 35 years of age. Meaning, I am not signing a 33 year old to a 4 year contract. I may make ONE exception, but not multiple exceptions. As I was traveling this week and a Caps fan told me we were "foolish" for letting Orpik go, and I told him that that contract looks good right now, and maybe next year, but see me in 3-4-5 years. We saw that with Kunitz.

2) Pens UFA's: Really, there are no musts to sign here. I look at Comeau and Lapierre, but only at reasonable salary and term. I cannot believe a hack writer like Rob Rossi would assail the Penguins management for getting backed into a corner on the salary cap, and how they cannot build around 87 and 71, then suggest they should bring back Paul Martin. That is like saying an obese person should lose weight, then suggest he dines at McDonalds to do so.

3) UFA Class. Just horrible. Sure, would love a guy like Matt Beleskey, but because of a weak class, likely he will be way overpriced, but he is definitely a guy I would target for the top 6. Sure, you are going to have to get 1 or 2 for bottom 6 forward duty, but see rule above. If you can sign Carl Soderburg for a reasonable salary then that opens up a Brandon Sutter trade possibility. As I mentioned above, there is a 23 year old Russian free agent in the KHL named Artemi Panerin who could be signed for an entry level contract. Maybe fellow country man Geno Malkin could help recruit him to Pittsburgh.

4) Powerplay. Here's the deal, I loved Rick Tocchet as a player, don't see his worth as an Assistant Coach. He brought nothing as promised, nothing changed. The PP didn't change over now two administrations. I tell Sid this is it, you are not playing the right side half wall. You will play along the goal line. Geno plays the half wall. Geno, you get set up for one times and pass them up, you are no longer on the half wall. In other words, coach the players, don't let the players coach you. Obviously we hear more "shot volume" and it makes sense. Hornquist is not James Neal, he is Johan Franzen. Franzen (Hornquist) score on deflections and traffic in front of the net. Get the puck to the net. Sounds simple, but this group refuses to do that. So you start out with Pouillot/Letang on the back end, 87, 71 and 72 up front. I would look to what Philly does and copy it as best possible, including how they use their own Sid and Geno. But someone needs to coach this and hold the players accountable. And the players need to do what they are coached to do.

5) Youth. We can blame Shero on poor drafts, we can blame Bylsma for lack of developing young players, but this has carried on to the current staff. Beau Bennett is a hot button topic. We don't know if he is Robert Dome, Aleksey Morozov or Markus Naslund. I think the middle guy is most likely. But goddamnit, PLAY HIM! Play him in a role where he either can thrive or you know he is a bust. He is a RW, play him on his natural wing. Far too often you push him to his off wing in favor of a hack like Steve Downie. PLAY Kasperi Kapanen. On a top 6 role. He is bigger than Tyler Johnson with similar skills. Play a Scott Wilson or Oscar Sundqvist. The thing with playing with these younger guys, they are cheap. Also, they could (should) get better. They have fresh legs. And if the only downside is you find out they aren't NHLers, well at least you learn something.

6) Sid needs to be on the PK. He is good enough defensively, Toews plays the PK, Giroux does, so does Taveres. One way to get Sid free of checkers and also put some pressure on the opposing pointmen.

7) Current Contracts. I would buy out Scuderi. Ray Shero what were you thinking? I would try and trade Kunitz, if not, don't over use him so he is spent down the stretch. Dupuis is a question mark, but despite the wishings of Sid, he maybe now better suited for 3rd line duty. I would look to trade Nick Spaling. He wasn't bad, but really is there anything he did that someone else could do for less than $2.2 million? I would seriously look at trading Brandon Sutter. He is an UFA to be.

8) This team has no identity. It is no longer a skilled team, it is not a fast team, it is not a physical or heavy team. It is a top heavy, aging team. That needs to change. I just know it won't change in this free agency crop.

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

Again, we loaded up in 2013 and were shut out by the Bruins. Almost literally. Again, "the TWO HEADED MONSTER" has to be better in big games/series. That is why they are here and why they are paid.

And Toews and Kane are the top scoring forwards in the post season since 2009. And their success has shown.

Their success has shown because they are surrounded by much better talent. Compare Chicago's D corps to Pittsburgh's. It is not even close.

Now compare their forward depth to ours - again, not close.

Remember how great Sidney Crosby was when he played with Marian Hossa? Isn't it amazing how that works?

Next year, Toews and Kane will eat up about $21 million in Chicago's salary cap. That will mean the loss of some talent around them. As such, I am going to go way out on a limb and predict their production will go down because they will have less room with which to work.

I have said this before and I will say it again. People do not have to believe me or agree with me but I know I am right on this.

Sidney Crosby and Evgeni Malkin are literally the very least of Pittsburgh's worries. Pittsburgh's problems have been health and depth related.

Because we lack depth, when we encounter a spate of injuries, as happened this year, it devastates our chance to compete against the best teams in the league because we lack the depth to step in and compensate for those losses.

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

Recruits, I agree with many of your points, most especially No. 8. This was the team that definitely lacked an identity.

Again though, part of the reason for that is because everyone was playing out of slot all season long. Blake Comeau doesn't belong on the second line. Nick Spaling doesn't belong in a top six role. Guys like that were misplaced all season long. I would like to see what they could do when slotted properly.

As for Bennett, I think his biggest problem is his inability to stay healthy. Remember, he was constantly banged up at the University of Denver as well. Therefore, he is about three or four years younger than his listed age from a development perspective.

If Pittsburgh trades David Perron, I suppose you could put Bennett on the right wing on the second line. However, if Pittsburgh was thinking that way, they never would've traded for Perron in the first place.

Hornqvist has that right wing on the first line locked down and there's no reason to displace him for a guy who has never done anything ever.

I think Pittsburgh should have left Bennett in Wilkes-Barre for two more seasons before bringing him up. The way it should work is the prospect should find you, not the other way around. His play, not his pedigree, should dictate his role.

At this point, I think Pittsburgh is going to have to trade Bennett and give him a fresh start somewhere else. I hope he flourishes at his next stop because it is not going to happen here. Also, he is going to command very little value in a trade.

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

As for Pascal Dupuis, I think he is clearly the most underrated player on the entire team.

Pittsburgh has felt the loss of Dupuis in each of the past two seasons.

Dupuis is a tenacious forechecker on a team that has very few such players. Also, he is one of the few players who can play with speed. That is an enormous thing to consider when pairing any winger with Sidney Crosby.

I do not care how old Dupuis is, I welcome him back with open arms and hope that he has his blood clots under control. We have not replaced him in the two years he's been out.

Now, will he have anything left in the tank given his injuries and the fact that he is been out for basically two seasons now? I have no idea.

However, if you're asking me to make a choice between Dupuis returning to form or Bennett finding a form that has consistently eluded him, my money is on the veteran because he has actually proven himself at this level.

Maybe next year, as the season wears along, Bennett's younger legs will overtake those of Dupuis. I sure hope that happens because that would be a good thing for the Pittsburgh Penguins. However, I have my doubts.

I don't think Beau Bennett has demonstrated much of anything at this level. He's a pretty good skater and he has silky smooth hands. He has 12 goals and nearly 40 points in approximately 120 NHL games.

However, he loses every 50-50 battle and he doesn't go to the tough areas on the ice. Also, there are times when he looks timid out there – probably related to his previous injuries. I think he has bust written all over him.

Now, I do agree that Pittsburgh shares some of the blame and how poorly they have developed him. However, at this point that is all water over the damn. It does not matter how we arrived at this point, only that we are here now.

The organ-eye-zation has already cleaned house and they are not going to do it for a second time in two years. That is fantasyland talk.

Bennett will probably get one more shot at this thing as a member of the Penguins and I believe he will most likely fail. I hope I am wrong because I hear he is an incredibly nice kid. Also, he is not without talent.

However, I think "Champagne Beau" will be tickling the ivories in a different area code by the middle of next season as I just don't think it is going to work out for him as a member of the Pittsburgh Penguins.

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

The day Pittsburgh traded for David Perron, my first thought was about Beau Bennett.

Here Bennett is, a right-handed shot who prefers to play on the right wing in a top six role. Yet Pittsburgh goes out and trades for another right-handed shot to play on the right wing in a top six role.

To make matters worse, the guy was playing on the third line in Edmonton – one of the worst teams in the NHL.

Prior to the trade, Pittsburgh tried a host of internal options (Comeau, Spaling, Downey, etc), all of whom had spent their entire careers playing on middling teams in bottom six roles.

If that does not spell it out for you, I don't know what will?

Pittsburgh has lost faith in Bennett and frankly, I agree with their assessment. To be honest, aside from draft pedigree, I am not sure how anyone could possibly disagree with their evaluation?

As I said, from a team-wide perspective, Pittsburgh's best hope is that Bennett comes into camp in the best shape of his life – 20 pounds heavier and full of muscle – and with a fire in his belly to compete. I sincerely hope he lights it up. That would be ideal. I just have never seen anything approaching a competitive spirit in Bennett. Mostly what I've seen is a guy who skates pretty well and who has really soft mitts but only uses them sparingly and basically does nothing else for your team.

Who knows, maybe some other team out there will give us a third round pick for the guy? I would take that in a heartbeat.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Recruits, I agree with many of your points, most especially No. 8. This was the team that definitely lacked an identity.

Again though, part of the reason for that is because everyone was playing out of slot all season long. Blake Comeau doesn't belong on the second line. Nick Spaling doesn't belong in a top six role. Guys like that were misplaced all season long. I would like to see what they could do when slotted properly.

As for Bennett, I think his biggest problem is his inability to stay healthy. Remember, he was constantly banged up at the University of Denver as well. Therefore, he is about three or four years younger than his listed age from a development perspective.

If Pittsburgh trades David Perron, I suppose you could put Bennett on the right wing on the second line. However, if Pittsburgh was thinking that way, they never would've traded for Perron in the first place.

Hornqvist has that right wing on the first line locked down and there's no reason to displace him for a guy who has never done anything ever.

I think Pittsburgh should have left Bennett in Wilkes-Barre for two more seasons before bringing him up. The way it should work is the prospect should find you, not the other way around. His play, not his pedigree, should dictate his role.

At this point, I think Pittsburgh is going to have to trade Bennett and give him a fresh start somewhere else. I hope he flourishes at his next stop because it is not going to happen here. Also, he is going to command very little value in a trade.

Doc, the mindblowing thing is in preseason the Sutter/Downie/Bennett line was lauded. Then.......yep, he got hurt. But what blows my mind is when he came back, he was always miscast. I mean why not reunite that line, moving Downie to the LW and putting Bennett back on RW. And if he goes pointless 2-3 games, so what. Give him a chance. I am worried we will do the same circle jerking with Kapanen. HE is exactly the type of top 6 forward we need.

And obviously totally agree that Comeau and Spaling were completely miscast in top 6 roles. But you know what, I don't need to pay a 4th liner $2.2 million, right? So that is why I would try and move him. Honestly, I think Pascal Dupuis is miscast as a top line winger, he is the perfect 3rd line guy, but he has (had?) the wheels to play with Sid.

 

[pittdan77]

I love how Pittsburgh pro sports fan always defends their players to the bitter end despite the fact one or more of them looks disinterested and unwilling to go all out. Whether it's a sandbagging Russian hockey player or a damaged superstar that never really recovered from his head injury, it's all good as long as they wear black and gold. Must be the turds around them that can't play, right? Trade away players and fire the coach because of "locker room chemistry" but heck, it's fun to watch for eighty odd games, isn't it? Let's go blow a couple hundred bucks to watch them blow three goal leads and lose in overtime!

Not saying it can't be fixed but somebody has to at least offer a plausible solution that doesn't involve some fantasy what-if's and tons of maybe's. The organization is a train wreck and makes one poor decision after another. No reason to believe that staying the course is even close to correct when you read that things were screwed up all the way down to the medical staff.

Sorry, not drinking that Kool-Aid.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

The day Pittsburgh traded for David Perron, my first thought was about Beau Bennett.

Here Bennett is, a right-handed shot who prefers to play on the right wing in a top six role. Yet Pittsburgh goes out and trades for another right-handed shot to play on the right wing in a top six role.

To make matters worse, the guy was playing on the third line in Edmonton – one of the worst teams in the NHL.

Prior to the trade, Pittsburgh tried a host of internal options (Comeau, Spaling, Downey, etc), all of whom had spent their entire careers playing on middling teams in bottom six roles.

If that does not spell it out for you, I don't know what will?

Pittsburgh has lost faith in Bennett and frankly, I agree with their assessment. To be honest, aside from draft pedigree, I am not sure how anyone could possibly disagree with their evaluation?

As I said, from a team-wide perspective, Pittsburgh's best hope is that Bennett comes into camp in the best shape of his life – 20 pounds heavier and full of muscle – and with a fire in his belly to compete. I sincerely hope he lights it up. That would be ideal. I just have never seen anything approaching a competitive spirit in Bennett. Mostly what I've seen is a guy who skates pretty well and who has really soft mitts but only uses them sparingly and basically does nothing else for your team.

Who knows, maybe some other team out there will give us a third round pick for the guy? I would take that in a heartbeat.

Then they should have traded him. Maybe they could have included him with Despres for Ben Lovejoy. Ahem........

Doc, what scares me moving forward is some smart moves this team could be really good again. But it is complicated moves. What worries me about Rutherford is the following:

1) He traded for a soon to be UFA (Jordan Staal) for Brandon Sutter, #8 pick (Derrick Pouillot though could have been Filip Forsberg) and Brian Dumolin. He could have waited a year, had all 3 of those guys AND Jordan Staal.

2) He gave Alexandre Semim (which I believe is Russian for Complete Dog) that ridiculous contract.

3) His drafts at Carolina have been spotty.

4) I thought he could get a bit more for James Neal. That trade seemed rushed.

5) The Perron trade in hindsight looks really bad. The first 15 games where he had 9 goals, it looked genius. now? In a deep draft, we don't have a first.

6) The Winnick trade looks like JR's version of the Douglas Murray or Brendan Morrow trades.

7) The Despres trade was horrid. To at least not get a 2nd, hell even a 3rd rd pick thrown in there is mindboggling.

I am just not confident he has the chops to make the moves. And then onto Mike Johnston, yeah injuries make judging him incomplete. But again, someone needs to tell Sid what is up and Geno too, and they seem to be still freelancing (at least on the PP) and the discipline was poor all year. So I am not sure how much respect he has within the room.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

By the way, your comments on Stamkos is noted Doc. But.....have you watched these playoffs? It is played in a complete quagmire of muck and grind. Thankfully these games have been close, because they aren't particularly compelling as far as action and drama is concerned.

Part of the underlying point of my original post is not just openly questioning Sid and Geno's performance in the playoffs, but if it is even worth having two guys like that if they cannot perform their wares. It doesn't matter if the Pens add "depth", those two are still going to command the top D and checking centre's (Canadian spelling intended).

For them to earn that money, they need to score. Simple as that. They need to score. I KNOW I AM RIGHT ON THIS!

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

I love how Pittsburgh pro sports fan always defends their players to the bitter end despite the fact one or more of them looks disinterested and unwilling to go all out. Whether it's a sandbagging Russian hockey player or a damaged superstar that never really recovered from his head injury, it's all good as long as they wear black and gold. Must be the turds around them that can't play, right? Trade away players and fire the coach because of "locker room chemistry" but heck, it's fun to watch for eighty odd games, isn't it? Let's go blow a couple hundred bucks to watch them blow three goal leads and lose in overtime!

Not saying it can't be fixed but somebody has to at least offer a plausible solution that doesn't involve some fantasy what-if's and tons of maybe's. The organization is a train wreck and makes one poor decision after another. No reason to believe that staying the course is even close to correct when you read that things were screwed up all the way down to the medical staff.

Sorry, not drinking that Kool-Aid.

Okay, then offer me a plausible scenario in which we get back anything remotely worth Malkin or Crosby. I am all ears.

The easy part is saying that we need to trade one of the two superstars. The hard part is coming up with a realistic trade scenario that makes sense for all involved and which fits under the salary cap.

With the salary cap restrictions in place, we are not going to get back anything remotely approaching equal value for either one of those guys.

I don't think people understand what trading one of those guys means. Basically, in a best case scenario, we would get back a middle of the road top six forward, a minor-leaguer, and maybe a couple of first-round picks. Is that worth it? To me that is not even close to being worth it.

However, if you think it is time to blow everything up and start from scratch then maybe that is something you consider.

I am more along the lines of Rivals. I believe that with a few good decisions here in there, and significantly better health, they are as good as any other team in the Eastern Conference. I think blowing everything up right now would be a tragic mistake.

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

Rivals, the point of depth is that it keeps you alive when your big guns are not scoring. And the way the game is played right now ensures that nobody can consistently score. It is just not possible.

Toews and Kane have played in almost the exact same number of postseason games during their respective careers as have Malkin and Crosby and have not scored nearly as many points in those games as the Pittsburgh duo.

Toews and Kane will definitely go through scoring droughts during this postseason too. However, when they do, historically, guys like Shaw and Saad, and Hossa, and Sharp, and Keith, and Seabrook have picked up the slack and kept the train rolling against some formidable competition.

I know that Jonathan Toews is the new Mark Messier and that he shitts leadership. I get that he has become the guy that every time anyone on Chicago does anything well, it is all a testament to Toews because of his "leadership intangibles."

Of course it's all bullshitt but most media narratives are.

However, I remember Toews completely melting down in the playoffs a few years ago against Detroit and Seabrook literally went into the penalty box to calm down his high-strung captain - who is a magnificent player but can still at times be grossly overrated.

Later in that series Seabrook scored a huge game in overtime of game seven to win it. And Seabrook is not even their top defenseman and is probably not among their top three defenseman.

Pittsburgh has had no such luxury and from where I sit that is the difference between the two teams.

Every game is extremely tight and there's no room out there for anyone. However, wouldn't it be nice to have a series where Crosby goes completely goalless and we still win in seven games against a good team because someone else stepped up? That is exactly what happened with Tampa over the past two weeks.

Malkin and Crosby will excel again in the postseason whenever the talent around them allows them to excel. As long as guys like Daniel Winnik and Nick Spaling are seeing first-line minutes, obviously, the lines that they play on are going to struggle to score regardless of how brilliant and talented Nos. 71 and 87 are.

 

[deepelemblues]

It's not just Crosby and Malkin they all could stand to shoot the puck a little more. Watching it is so frustrating when they're clearly looking for a screened shot or a re-direct when they should be pulling the trigger and crashing the net. It's no wonder the Pens look tired and slow so often in the playoffs, they're getting pounded down in front of their net and not pounding enough on the other end. I've heard over and over again for the last two-three years from coaches and everybody else how they want 'shot volume' yet the players just don't seem to be listening.

 

[ratking17]

Shot volume is a misnomer. Shots from the point with no bodies in front of the goalie is meaningless. Until the Pens clone hornqvist and have at least one winger per line that wants to park his ass in the crease, the criticism of shot volume is not addressing the real flaw

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

Rivals, your concerns about Rutherford are noted and somewhat shared by me. I never was impressed with what he did in Carolina and I was not exactly doing cartwheels when we hired him.

I could not believe how well we did in the Staal trade considering Carolina had us by the scruff of our neck. That was Shero's best move as our GM, IMHO and it came with the direct expense of Jim Rutherford.

The problem is that Shero then used that pick on Derrick Pouliot. I think Pouliot is going to be a good offensive defenseman in the NHL. However, you pointed out, there are other players still available that would've been more useful to this team. Forsberg was one but the guy I wanted at the time – and still would have preferred – was Jacob Trouba. I think he is going to be a stud defenseman in the NHL. He is much more of a three zone guy than Pouliot and I think he has almost the same offensive upside. I think we're going to regret that miss.

 

[deepelemblues]

Shot volume is a misnomer. Shots from the point with no bodies in front of the goalie is meaningless. Until the Pens clone hornqvist and have at least one winger per line that wants to park his ass in the crease, the criticism of shot volume is not addressing the real flaw

I should have said I wasn't talking about the point necessarily, lots of times against the Rangers where someone had the puck at the bottom of the circle or the goal-side halfway up the circle and tried to pass it to the other circle or across the crease which would either end in more passing or a turnover or a fight in the corner for the puck. They had the bodies in front of the goalie, admittedly too often not in the greatest position, and maybe because of that is why they didn't shoot more often. Waiting for and trying to create better shots ended up not working, again.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Rivals, your concerns about Rutherford are noted and somewhat shared by me. I never was impressed with what he did in Carolina and I was not exactly doing cartwheels when we hired him.

I could not believe how well we did in the Staal trade considering Carolina had us by the scruff of our neck. That was Shero's best move as our GM, IMHO and it came with the direct expense of Jim Rutherford.

The problem is that Shero then used that pick on Derrick Pouliot. I think Pouliot is going to be a good offensive defenseman in the NHL. However, you pointed out, there are other players still available that would've been more useful to this team. Forsberg was one but the guy I wanted at the time – and still would have preferred – was Jacob Trouba. I think he is going to be a stud defenseman in the NHL. He is much more of a three zone guy than Pouliot and I think he has almost the same offensive upside. I think we're going to regret that miss.

I like what I see of Pouliot, but he may just be Mike Green and not Drew Doughty. At the time, because of the dearth of wingers, I thought Forsberg was a no brainer. But we passed on him, what is worse, is Washington traded him for Martin Erat. Egads, on that note, George McPhee can really draft forwards. My god, the Caps are loaded with homegrown depth and they could have Forsberg in their stable also!

I do like what I see of Trouba, loved him in the World Jrs for the US team. That was a really deep draft with the Pens also picking up Olli Maata with the 22nd pick and Tanner Pearson going to the Kings with the 30th pick.

Man, Forsberg would be what the doctor ordered for 87 and/or 71.

And on your thing with Kane and Toews, the fact is though, they have scored more points that 87 and 71 the last 5 years in the playoffs and they have scored big goals. But the Hawks Cap problems are approaching aren't they/ It starts next year when their contracts kicked in, plus they way overpaid Crawford (IMO). Saad is an RFA this year. They are going to become the new Pens. But like you have said, they have had late round picks like Andrew Shaw and such to help bail them out. Memo to Mario (owner of the Pens), the Hawks can put young guys and rookies on their already deep roster, so too could the Kings. Why are you letting your management continue with veteran, overpriced curtain jerkers to fill key roles. Play guys like Bennett and Kapanen next year, Sundquist too if he shows he can do it and stop effing around.

 

[pittdan77]

Let's review a few of the plausible options that don't require trading a superstar and gets this mess turned around quickly...

Build through the draft? Oh, right, traded all of those premium picks away and even in the best case, anybody you pick this year isn't going to be ready right away.

Dump and trade salary? Yeah, got too many fat contracts and you'd have to get by on prospects for a few years and you really don't have a few years. Not only that but the rest of the league knows your backs are up against it.

So how about those prospects? Well, you're either out of options or they're not even close to being ready. (admittedly I know nothing about what's in the pipe but it's telling that they played with five d-men for a month and are perpetually trading for "a winger for Sid" so it probably isn't going that well in that department). Not to mention Beau Bennet has been a disaster.

Trade your way back into contention with the "bit" players? With what? Bennet might be a solid reclamation project but you're not getting anything back for him. Same with anybody who has been injury prone or coming off injury.

Guess you could try to blow up the front office and bring in some fresh blood? Yes, they made it look like that happened last summer but pretty much only changed two people (GM and Coach) and left the rest alone.

I understand where you're coming from Dr. and you obviously know hockey better than me. But I just don't see a way to do anything that even smells like a step in the right direction without seriously considering blowing something up. And let's face it, there isn't much of value left to pawn off and make a legitimate hockey move.

I personally think that they've sunk into a business model that rides the backs of the cult like following they've developed that keeps people streaming through the turnstiles at $100 a pop and selling RC cola at a premium (FREE REFILL!!!). Very Pirate like.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

However, if you're asking me to make a choice between Dupuis returning to form or Bennett finding a form that has consistently eluded him, my money is on the veteran because he has actually proven himself at this level.

GMs in all sports have been making that mistake since, well, the beginning of organized sports. While Bennett may or may not ever become a good player, there is very little chance at this point that Dupuis ever becomes anything more than a bit part ever again, at least on a good team. If he's playing on a top two line next season this will have been a horrible off season for the Pens.

Someone in that organization needs to understand that sometimes you have to throw the young guys into the deep end of the pool and see if they can swim. Sometimes they can't, and you move on. But sometimes they can, and you'll never find that out if you are afraid to play them.

 

[SoufOaklin4Life]

Bennett goes on the IR while blowing his nose, if the tissues aren't soft enough .

If he's a lynchpin player the pens are competely effed

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

I guess it just depends on one's view of Bennett's ceiling. I agree that we know what Dupuis is and Bennett's profile is less well defined. Also, who knows, with more responsibility and an off-season to heal and get stronger, maybe Beau will finally blossom? I sure hope so.

I just think a healthy Dupuis is most likely a significantly better player than Bennett is right now or likely will ever become.

People say "play the young guys," and in spirit I am with those folks. However, Pittsburgh made the playoffs this past year by the hair on its chinny chin chin. What happens if we play all these young guys and they aren't ready and it puts us on the wrong side of that razor's edge? Will people be understanding because of how much we developed young players?

Ha! Yeah, right.

I think people want things both ways.

Also, I think the onus is on Bennett to earn more playing time, not on Pittsburgh to gift it to him because of how highly he was once drafted.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

Actually can't you say exactly the opposite? The Penguins valued age over youth at nearly every turn this past season, and all it got them was a near epic collapse and only making the playoffs by the hair of their chinny chin chin. And then a five game stay in the playoffs. The notion that that performance was some sort of success and that preferring age over youth was the correct decision is patently absurd. Obviously some of this (but most certainly not all of it) is using 50-50 hindsight, but this actually would have been a perfect year to prefer youth to age when the choice arose.

As far as Bennett goes, like everyone else he absolutely should earn more playing time. But, like everyone else, young players are pretty much "gifted" playing time all the time. Because by definition until you start playing you can't actually earn any playing time. The Penguins problem is that too often they take a guy like Bennett and play him out of position and in a role that he is ill suited for, and then when the player inevitably doesn't perform well in that role that's pretty much the end of it.

If you want to find out if Bennett (or any other forward) can handle a top six role the one and only way to know for sure is to put them in a top six role. And then leave them there for a long time, even if things don't go well at the beginning. If the Penguins could "afford" to play guys like Spalling and Comeau in a role like that, they certainly could have put Bennett there for an extended time. If they had put him there he hardly could have done worse than Kunitz did in that role. Had they done so they'd have a much better idea if they had something with him or not. Instead where they are is essentially at the same place with him that they were at this time last year. And after a season like this one, that's dumb. Really dumb.

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

1.) Right, I agree with you. So if you can tell me how next season will play out ahead of time I will then tell you if it is time to flush out all these veterans and play the young guys. Projections are so easy when you do them in hindsight.

As I said, people want to have it both ways.

2.) As far as Bennett goes, I don't think it was a matter of youth versus age. I think it was a matter of talent versus less talent.

Again, Bennett is ideally a top six forward. He was also, at the time, one of the few right-handed shots available to them. They ignored all that and went out and traded their first round pick for Edmonton's third line right wing.

That does not sound to me like an organization that has a lot of faith in a prospect's potential.

Now, maybe that is because they don't value youth. However, Olli Maatta played last year as a 19-year-old. Derrick Pouliot played this year as a 20-year-old. Maybe it is not the Penguins' philosophy that is the problem. Maybe Bennett is simply not developing like we had all hoped he would?

3.) As for using him in a role in which he cannot possibly succeed, again I do not agree...at all.

...at all.

I keep hearing this nonsense but it doesn't make any sense.

The Penguins are not asking the kid to play defense or goaltender, they are simply using him in a bottom six role. Incidentally, they are using him in the bottom six role because when they have tried him on either of their top two lines he has been horrible and has looked woefully out of place.

They are not asking him to shadow anyone and they are not even asking him to be overly physical.

They are asking him to do most of the same things he would've done on the first or second line. The problem is he can't win any 50-50 battles, he is not good at getting in on the forecheck and he cannot get to the dirty areas of the ice to score goals.

That is not all going to magically change if you put him next to Sidney Crosby.

I do agree that Beau Bennett is ideally suited for a top six role. However, I think that should be in Wilkes-Barre, Pennsylvania, not Pittsburgh.