ACC Basketball: Just a down year, or is what we’re seeing a troubling trend?

[WillFerrell]

ACC needs to up its coaching game.

Augusta Free Press
Link:

ACC Basketball: Just a down year, or is what we’re seeing a troubling trend?

 

[PittMan2003]

"The SEC has had the NIL for years. It's simply legal now." Sad but true.

 

[PittMan2003]

ACC needs to up its coaching game.

Augusta Free Press
Link:

ACC Basketball: Just a down year, or is what we’re seeing a troubling trend?

Pitt could be part of the solution by getting rid of Capel and finding a good fit.

 

[BballinsiderfromPitt]

As much as i spar and hate to agree with @Sean Miller Fan he is absolutely correct in that the SEC has hired better and simply decided to be good at hoops. Will be interesting to see who Georgia and Mizzou get this time around. Wonder if Georgia will go with Jonas Hayes from Xavier. Lottery ticket, some may say

 

[WillFerrell]

As much as i spar and hate to agree with @Sean Miller Fan he is absolutely correct in that the SEC has hired better and simply decided to be good at hoops. Will be interesting to see who Georgia and Mizzou get this time around. Wonder if Georgia will go with Jonas Hayes from Xavier. Lottery ticket, some may say

Just in time for Valentine's day.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

I posted something to this a week or so ago. I think here is where we are seeing a lot of the big difference in revenue from the football conferences now bleed into the other sports. The SEC is awash in cash. And are now spending it on basketball too. It used to be limited to Kentucky, Florida and Vandy, maybe Arkansas and LSU, but now you got the two football centric Alabama schools doubling down on hoops.

The Big Ten has always been hoops centric (never at the expense of football however) and again are awash with cash. The Big 12 with Kansas and schools like WVU, OK State, Texas and now Baylor..

I think another issue is the ACC used to have key contacts and some of the biggest prep schools. But they did well in NYC, the NE and DC/Balt along with Atlanta and Florida. Now? A lot of this doesn't matter. How many of Rivals 150 kids actually attend their local high schools? 25%? 30%? My point here is these kids are used to being recruited by the time they are 13-14 years old.

The ACC is no longer "cool" anymore as a basketball league.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

As much as i spar and hate to agree with @Sean Miller Fan he is absolutely correct in that the SEC has hired better and simply decided to be good at hoops. Will be interesting to see who Georgia and Mizzou get this time around. Wonder if Georgia will go with Jonas Hayes from Xavier. Lottery ticket, some may say

You can cite a lot of things but it all comes down to coaching. In other posts, I said the ACC has only 4 programs out of 15, who are in "good shape" with their coaching situation and you could even argue those 4:

Duke - idiot-proof at this point
VT/Wake - seem to have hit on SoCon lottery tickets
UVa

Others
Pitt/NC State/Clem/GT - will be looking for new coaches in the next 13 months
Syr/FSU/Miami - old dudes with a few years left and none lighting it up
ND - Brey is hit or miss
UNC - who knows with Davis
Lou - looking
BC - lottery ticket

If the ACC spent money and cared about basketball like the SEC, these would be the hires:

Pitt - Medved
Lou - Oats
Clem - Wade (he played there)
BC - Pitino
UNC - a sitting Top 10 coach

The SEC is hiring guarantees:
Pearl
Oats
Musselman
Barnes
Buzz

Heck, they were talking about the Auburn/Arkansas game on Morning Joe last week, an MSNBC political morning show. The SEC has simply decided to be big-time and dont give me that it comes down to football money. ACC schools have enough money to have hired an Oats or Musselman. It came down to trying to be cheap

 

[FrogmoreZeke]

I posted something to this a week or so ago. I think here is where we are seeing a lot of the big difference in revenue from the football conferences now bleed into the other sports. The SEC is awash in cash. And are now spending it on basketball too. It used to be limited to Kentucky, Florida and Vandy, maybe Arkansas and LSU, but now you got the two football centric Alabama schools doubling down on hoops.

The Big Ten has always been hoops centric (never at the expense of football however) and again are awash with cash. The Big 12 with Kansas and schools like WVU, OK State, Texas and now Baylor..

I think another issue is the ACC used to have key contacts and some of the biggest prep schools. But they did well in NYC, the NE and DC/Balt along with Atlanta and Florida. Now? A lot of this doesn't matter. How many of Rivals 150 kids actually attend their local high schools? 25%? 30%? My point here is these kids are used to being recruited by the time they are 13-14 years old.

The ACC is no longer "cool" anymore as a basketball league.

aging and retiring coaches.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

I posted something to this a week or so ago. I think here is where we are seeing a lot of the big difference in revenue from the football conferences now bleed into the other sports. The SEC is awash in cash. And are now spending it on basketball too. It used to be limited to Kentucky, Florida and Vandy, maybe Arkansas and LSU, but now you got the two football centric Alabama schools doubling down on hoops.

The Big Ten has always been hoops centric (never at the expense of football however) and again are awash with cash. The Big 12 with Kansas and schools like WVU, OK State, Texas and now Baylor..

I think another issue is the ACC used to have key contacts and some of the biggest prep schools. But they did well in NYC, the NE and DC/Balt along with Atlanta and Florida. Now? A lot of this doesn't matter. How many of Rivals 150 kids actually attend their local high schools? 25%? 30%? My point here is these kids are used to being recruited by the time they are 13-14 years old.

The ACC is no longer "cool" anymore as a basketball league.

Kids moving out of their geographic area at 15 has hurt ACC recruiting as these kids become, essentially "national AAU" kids instead of that hometown star from the local public or Catholic HS. But its just made it harder. The ACC hasn't adjusted but it again, it comes down to who your coach is. Kids used to stay home for HS and stay within their footprint for college. Now, you have a kid from NJ, playing at BB factory HS in Georgia deciding between Pitt, NC State, Mississippi State, Texas Tech, and Washington. It makes no sense.

However, the name of the program has very little meaning anymore in college basketball. HS players dont sign up for facilities, or campus life, or the conference affiliation, or the historical status of the program. They sign up to play for the Head Coach. Its gotten to the point where the networks might as well just call the teams like Team Oats vs Team Musselman like they do in youth sports rec leagues. It makes no difference if they're at Arkansas, Alabama, DePaul, or Pitt.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Kids moving out of their geographic area at 15 has hurt ACC recruiting as these kids become, essentially "national AAU" kids instead of that hometown star from the local public or Catholic HS. But its just made it harder. The ACC hasn't adjusted but it again, it comes down to who your coach is. Kids used to stay home for HS and stay within their footprint for college. Now, you have a kid from NJ, playing at BB factory HS in Georgia deciding between Pitt, NC State, Mississippi State, Texas Tech, and Washington. It makes no sense.

However, the name of the program has very little meaning anymore in college basketball. HS players dont sign up for facilities, or campus life, or the conference affiliation, or the historical status of the program. They sign up to play for the Head Coach. Its gotten to the point where the networks might as well just call the teams like Team Oats vs Team Musselman like they do in youth sports rec leagues. It makes no difference if they're at Arkansas, Alabama, DePaul, or Pitt.

This is really spot on. No other sport, even football, where the coach has more of an impact on the team/program.

 

[Duneaux Harm]

It is pretty clear at this point that the Big East teams have effected the ACC and not in a good way. They haven’t really provided the mixology that was going to make the league different but greater. The two elite elitey elite schools still had their way but the ACC was no longer that “genteel southern society” anymore. The ACC is a person who wanted it both ways. Stay the same but change. I think they have just been confused for many years.

Even with their tourney. No way it ever moves from North Carolina if the Big East teams had not come in.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

It is pretty clear at this point that the Big East teams have effected the ACC and not in a good way. They haven’t really provided the mixology that was going to make the league different but greater. The two elite elitey elite schools still had their way but the ACC was no longer that “genteel southern society” anymore. The ACC is a person who wanted it both ways. Stay the same but change. I think they have just been confused for many years.

Even with their tourney. No way it ever moves from North Carolina if the Big East teams had not come in.

Rutgers, SHU, Providence, Creighton + the SEC having good coaches has really hurt. There's only so many players and so many good teams to go around.

 

[Duneaux Harm]

Rutgers, SHU, Providence, Creighton + the SEC having good coaches has really hurt. There's only so many players and so many good teams to go around.

But many of these ACC teams shouldn’t have to worry about those teams. SEC going all in with all sports is a different story.

 

[pittjas]

Pitt is going to bring back Capel just to save a few million… which is the opposite of what the SEC schools /Louisville /etc would do.

 

[Duneaux Harm]

Pitt is going to bring back Capel just to save a few million… which is the opposite of what the SEC schools /Louisville /etc would do.

I honestly do not believe she will. If you look at Pitt from a really high level, right now we are athletically doing as well as we ever have in multiple sports. To let a basketball team drag the whole ship down is not something she wants to do. Yes, perhaps finding the money for a buyout becomes exorbitant to the point you have to bite down hard and just live with it, but I truly believe she is not wanting any high profile team tarnish the current image of Pitt. And there is no spin that can sale basketball right now. I think she has zero choice but may just be forced to deal with econ9mic realities she wishes sehe didn’t have to.

 

[pittjas]

I honestly do not believe she will. If you look at Pitt from a really high level, right now we are athletically doing as well as we ever have in multiple sports. To let a basketball team drag the whole ship down is not something she wants to do. Yes, perhaps finding the money for a buyout becomes exorbitant to the point you have to bite down hard and just live with it, but I truly believe she is not wanting any high profile team tarnish the current image of Pitt. And there is no spin that can sale basketball right now. I think she has zero choice but may just be forced to deal with econ9mic realities she wishes sehe didn’t have to.

I agree with you 100% but I think he’ll be back. Seems to be what everybody with any connections is saying at this point.

 

[HailToPitt1985]

Since Dixon was pushed out, this Pitt basketball program is all about really bad choices. One of these days, hopefully in the not too distant future, they'll start making a few good choices and decisions.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

I honestly do not believe she will. If you look at Pitt from a really high level, right now we are athletically doing as well as we ever have in multiple sports. To let a basketball team drag the whole ship down is not something she wants to do. Yes, perhaps finding the money for a buyout becomes exorbitant to the point you have to bite down hard and just live with it, but I truly believe she is not wanting any high profile team tarnish the current image of Pitt. And there is no spin that can sale basketball right now. I think she has zero choice but may just be forced to deal with econ9mic realities she wishes sehe didn’t have to.

Were you the one whose logic was the basketball team would prevent the football team from winning games?

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

Were you the one whose logic was the basketball team would prevent the football team from winning games?

Or was he the one whose logic was that building facilities for the Olympic sports would keep the football team and the basketball team from winning games?

 

[Duneaux Harm]

Were you the one whose logic was the basketball team would prevent the football team from winning games?

No. You dumb ass. Having a bad product like basketball DOES drag down other sports given time.

 

[Ski11585]

Were you the one whose logic was the basketball team would prevent the football team from winning games?

Your lack of self awareness is astounding.

 

[JD1976]

“Or was he the one whose logic was that building facilities for the Olympic sports would keep the football team and the basketball team from winning games?”

SMF walks into another L

 

[PittPharm2002]

Pitt is going to bring back Capel just to save a few million… which is the opposite of what the SEC schools /Louisville /etc would do.

Want to compare the donations to athletics from pitt to those schools ?
I’ll give you a hint -
Even wvu out donates pitt 2 to 1

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

No. You dumb ass. Having a bad product like basketball DOES drag down other sports given time.

How? How does bad basketball prevent football from winning. Can you explain this phenomenon. Will Kedon Slovis be so depressed about the basketball team that he won't play as well?

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

Or was he the one whose logic was that building facilities for the Olympic sports would keep the football team and the basketball team from winning games?

Much different. Every dollar spent on Olympic sports facilities is a dollar that could have been spent on a legit basketball coach. Ok, well not every dollar as Pitt cannot debt finance a coach salary but every dollar besides that such as money from the university general fund and donors. Donor money isn't infinite. If someone donates $50K to volleyball, that is money that could have gone elsewhere. And Pitt will have to make bond interest payments for volleyball from non-volleyball money since volleyball doesn't make money. Where do those payments come from? General university fund? Maybe. But the money would be better spent hiring a legit coach and having the volleyball continue to win at historic rates at the FH

 

[JD1976]

Much different. Every dollar spent on Olympic sports facilities is a dollar that could have been spent on a legit basketball coach. Ok, well not every dollar as Pitt cannot debt finance a coach salary but every dollar besides that such as money from the university general fund and donors. Donor money isn't infinite. If someone donates $50K to volleyball, that is money that could have gone elsewhere. And Pitt will have to make bond interest payments for volleyball from non-volleyball money since volleyball doesn't make money. Where do those payments come from? General university fund? Maybe. But the money would be better spent hiring a legit coach and having the volleyball continue to win at historic rates at the FH

So in your mind, if someone is willing to write a check for $50k to volleyball it is taking away from fundraising for basketball or football.

How do you not understand that the Olympic sports have hundreds, and in some cases, thousands of living alumni and their families who often could care less about supporting football or basketball? Their experience is within that given sport and program and they want their money to stay in the sport that they themselves or their son or daughter competed in.

Case in point: My next door neighbor and his wife have given more than a million dollars lifetime to his major D1 university’s gymnastics, soccer and field hockey programs. Not a penny to football outside of two club football seats. He’s made it clear that if he didn’t support those programs, his money certainly wouldn’t go to football.

So you can absolutely improve facilities for non-revenue sports through fundraising without taking away from the revenue sport fundraising.

I’m not sure why that is so hard for you to see.

 

[MarshallGoldberg]

What SMF is saying makes a lot of sense, which is why the best Olympic sports programs of all time like USC and UCLA are so historically bad at football and basketball respectively. UNC hoops has always been held back by the spending on Fetzer Field as well as the women's soccer and men's Lacrosse teams. A shame Arizona basketball has been such an afterthought due to reckless spending on baseball and swimming. UVA could have had a nice basketball run under Bennett, but they blew the cash on baseball and elite tennis.

 

[Pitt FreeBob]

What SMF is saying makes a lot of sense, which is why the best Olympic sports programs of all time like USC and UCLA are so historically bad at football and basketball respectively. UNC hoops has always been held back by the spending on Fetzer Field as well as the women's soccer and men's Lacrosse teams. A shame Arizona basketball has been such an afterthought due to reckless spending on baseball and swimming. UVA could have had a nice basketball run under Bennett, but they blew the cash on baseball and elite tennis.

What hurts SMF is the lack of traffic on the Board. The amazing amount of stupid he posts doesn’t get lost with volume of BBall posts. There are too many people that call him out and he doubles down on trying to look somewhat intelligent. Which for him is a lost cause.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

So in your mind, if someone is willing to write a check for $50k to volleyball it is taking away from fundraising for basketball or football.

How do you not understand that the Olympic sports have hundreds, and in some cases, thousands of living alumni and their families who often could care less about supporting football or basketball? Their experience is within that given sport and program and they want their money to stay in the sport that they themselves or their son or daughter competed in.

Case in point: My next door neighbor and his wife have given more than a million dollars lifetime to his major D1 university’s gymnastics, soccer and field hockey programs. Not a penny to football outside of two club football seats. He’s made it clear that if he didn’t support those programs, his money certainly wouldn’t go to football.

So you can absolutely improve facilities for non-revenue sports through fundraising without taking away from the revenue sport fundraising.

I’m not sure why that is so hard for you to see.

I have no confidence Pitt is going to find new donors for volleyball. As people have mentioned, Pitt has one of the worst athletics alumni giving rates.

And where do the bond payments come from? It can't come from the volleyball budget because that sport loses money.

 

[MarshallGoldberg]

I have no confidence Pitt is going to find new donors for volleyball. As people have mentioned, Pitt has one of the worst athletics alumni giving rates.

And where do the bond payments come from? It can't come from the volleyball budget because that sport loses money.

Pitt has to spend a lot of on sports like volleyball whether or wants to or not because of Title IX/lack of a female collegiate sport nearly as popular as football. If it's a path to a first ever team NCAA national title and facility upgrades, all the better.

 

[Duneaux Harm]

How? How does bad basketball prevent football from winning. Can you explain this phenomenon. Will Kedon Slovis be so depressed about the basketball team that he won't play as well?

Dumbass where did I say prevent? Go back to your masturbatory fantasy of Jon Stamos you perv.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

Dumbass where did I say prevent? Go back to your masturbatory fantasy of Jon Stamos you perv.

I need you to explain how bad basketball affects football. You said it. Now explain it.

 

[PittMiamiRivalry]

Much different. Every dollar spent on Olympic sports facilities is a dollar that could have been spent on a legit basketball coach. Ok, well not every dollar as Pitt cannot debt finance a coach salary but every dollar besides that such as money from the university general fund and donors. Donor money isn't infinite. If someone donates $50K to volleyball, that is money that could have gone elsewhere. And Pitt will have to make bond interest payments for volleyball from non-volleyball money since volleyball doesn't make money. Where do those payments come from? General university fund? Maybe. But the money would be better spent hiring a legit coach and having the volleyball continue to win at historic rates at the FH

You

What SMF is saying makes a lot of sense, which is why the best Olympic sports programs of all time like USC and UCLA are so historically bad at football and basketball respectively. UNC hoops has always been held back by the spending on Fetzer Field as well as the women's soccer and men's Lacrosse teams. A shame Arizona basketball has been such an afterthought due to reckless spending on baseball and swimming. UVA could have had a nice basketball run under Bennett, but they blew the cash on baseball and elite tennis.

I agree but the Olympic sports fans are crybabies and will always want to see as much money spent on their sports which if 1000 fans show up is a miracle. Their sports never pay for themselves.

I don't think Lyke had anything to do with the great football season which depended upon the chemistry of the offensive coordinator, the QB and Narduzzi. Finally the program had luck and was fortunate not to have to play Notre Dame. Please remember the coach everyone wants extended never beat Notre Dame, is 1-6 vs. Miami, and 1-3 vs. Penn State. His bowl record is abysmal at 1-5. As far as basketball, Lyke didn't do her homework because Capel's flaws were there for everyone to see.

I don't know who the powers behind the scenes are who want Capel to return. At this point, gross mismanagement of the program has turned me into a disinterested fan. I'll jump back on the bandwagon when I see progress or a new coach, I don't believe Capel will ever win enough to justify his tenure or his money. Narduzzi has a chance to build on his success and make Pitt a national power for a while. I hope he doesn't blow it. Cignetti was a good hire.

 

[PittMiamiRivalry]

So in your mind, if someone is willing to write a check for $50k to volleyball it is taking away from fundraising for basketball or football.

How do you not understand that the Olympic sports have hundreds, and in some cases, thousands of living alumni and their families who often could care less about supporting football or basketball? Their experience is within that given sport and program and they want their money to stay in the sport that they themselves or their son or daughter competed in.

Case in point: My next door neighbor and his wife have given more than a million dollars lifetime to his major D1 university’s gymnastics, soccer and field hockey programs. Not a penny to football outside of two club football seats. He’s made it clear that if he didn’t support those programs, his money certainly wouldn’t go to football.

So you can absolutely improve facilities for non-revenue sports through fundraising without taking away from the revenue sport fundraising.

I’m not sure why that is so hard for you to see.

Can you show us evidence to disprove your generous neighbor is not an outlier? Why do you think universities drop Olympic sports to help pay the bills? When Duquense plays a major power in football, does anyone cry baby for their baseball program?

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

Lyke is clueless but at least she appears to stay out of football's way.

Yes, she is obviously to blame for ever athletic department failure and clearly has nothing at all to do with any of the successes.

All because she sits when she pees.

 

[JD1976]

Can you show us evidence to disprove your generous neighbor is not an outlier? Why do you think universities drop Olympic sports to help pay the bills? When Duquense plays a major power in football, does anyone cry baby for their baseball program?

There are plenty of examples of Olympic sports facilities being funded by alums or family of alums of that sport who didn’t give to football. Like literally 100s of examples. Pitt is using this new facility for gymnastics, volleyball and wrestling. They should easily be able to fundraise a majority of the cost from supporters and alums of those sports, many of whom aren’t giving to football.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

There are plenty of examples of Olympic sports facilities being funded by alums or family of alums of that sport who didn’t give to football. Like literally 100s of examples. Pitt is using this new facility for gymnastics, volleyball and wrestling. They should easily be able to fundraise a majority of the cost from supporters and alums of those sports, many of whom aren’t giving to football.

And yet they aren't. They are paying for it with bonds and general university funds. While you are correct that there are some donors only interested in giving 6-7 figures to Olympic Sports, its highly likely Pitt has any of those

 

[Voice of Danno]

Football and Basketball pays the bills but the Olympic sports really don't cut in to their budgets. Tell me what Pitt football or basketball needs. Facilities are top notch. Coaches are paid well (we don't lose too many assistants each year). Recruiting budgets seem to be on par with other schools. So if some of the football money is put in to WVB and MSOC instead of diamond encrusted warm ups it's what is best for the athletic department and the school in general. Unless you don't think having WVB and MSOC on ESPN playing in the national semi's is good for the school.

 

[Voice of Danno]

As for the future of the ACC. The top six conferences ebb and flow, One is up and then down for a year. But the ACC could be in trouble. With the star coaches retiring. SEC getting serious about hoops and increasing the competition for top recruits in the south. The BE not sucking keeping northeast home (within the BE footprint) I can see the ACC being consistently in the bottom 2 of the power six conferences.

 

[MarshallGoldberg]

I don't think Lyke had anything to do with the great football season which depended upon the chemistry of the offensive coordinator, the QB and Narduzzi. Finally the program had luck and was fortunate not to have to play Notre Dame. Please remember the coach everyone wants extended never beat Notre Dame, is 1-6 vs. Miami, and 1-3 vs. Penn State.

She had something to do with it: she extended Narduzzi in 2017 to help give us some stability after years of absurd turnover. And offensive coordinator hiring under Narduzzi has been mostly really good.