All of you who are so traumatized…

[DT_PITT]

Yeah I think having a good showing the rest of the way is important. But I also think keeping key players is just as important. If we win five or six games but Hugely transfers I would consider moving on. Hugely is critical.

I don't know if there is a particular "number" of wins needed to keep his job. Some of this is made muddy by a bad ACC this year.

This much I will say ...

If we go 2-9 the rest of the way, I just can't see how how you in any way one can support keeping a coach who's four year win percentage in the ACC is .270.

But if we do go something like 6-5 the rest of the way, meaning 9-11 in the ACC, this is just such a more complicated decision.

 

[KennyHeisman8]

I think this is a very fair take. We have 11 games left. Our results should and will dictate Capel’s future. As much as I’m pleased with better results, it would not be sincere for me to suggest that I think the next 11 games will demonstrate something different than what we’ve already seen to this point. But I will wait for the actual evidence.

What do you think the magic ACC win number is? I think 6 or 7 and he is back,

 

[KennyHeisman8]

I don't know if there is a particular "number" of wins needed to keep his job. Some of this is made muddy by a bad ACC this year.

This much I will say ...

If we go 2-9 the rest of the way, I just can see how how you in any way one can support keeping a coach who's four year win percentage in the ACC is .270.

But if we do go something like 6-5 the rest of the way, meaning 9-11 in the ACC, this is just such a more complicated decision.

If we end up 9-11 he honestly deserves consideration for ACC coach of the year.

 

[pittzip]

What do you think the magic ACC win number is? I think 6 or 7 and he is back,

6 or 7 out of 11? He better be back if thats the number.
6 or 7 wins total? Then no.

And the games are gonna get harder guys are gonna get worn down.

 

[KennyHeisman8]

6 or 7 out of 11? He better be back if thats the number.
6 or 7 wins total? Then no.

And the games are gonna get harder guys are gonna get worn down.

I think if they go 7-13, given the fact that several things were out of his control that happened this year, I'd give him another year.

Remember, that even though they had a few ugly losses they are extremely close to being 5-4 in the ACC and the narrative being exceptionally different right now.

 

[pittzip]

I think if they go 7-13, given the fact that several things were out of his control that happened this year, I'd give him another year.

Remember, that even though they had a few ugly losses they are extremely close to being 5-4 in the ACC and the narrative being exceptionally different right now.

That doesn't pay the bills
And keeping him will be a deserted Pete.

Need butts in seats. Thats the name of the game

They lost money every game this year. Thats another consideration

 

[KennyHeisman8]

That doesn't pay the bills
And keeping him will be a deserted Pete.

Need butts in seats. Thats the name of the game

They lost money every game this year. Thats another consideration

Then you better make a flashy hire and not Medved because that won't put any butts in the seat.

Capel, at the time, was a pretty damn flashy hire and he got a lot of people back in the building. A mid major coach that frankly 90% of PIttsburgh has never heard of is not going to move the needle like getting a guy who was considered the top assistant in the country, who had previously recruited Blake Griffin, and sat next to coach K for 9 years.

Frankly, you would need to hire someone on Nate Oats level, and not some dude from Colorado State, even if I think it would be a good hire.

 

[pittzip]

Medved has proven he can build it though
DeVries is also good

I like DeVries a little more though


It won't be immediate results though ,but delaying it one year won't help.

The financial losses to the athletic department here are substantial.

 

[TheSpecialSauce]

Medved has proven he can build it though
DeVries is also good

I like DeVries a little more though


It won't be immediate results though ,but delaying it one year won't help.

The financial losses to the athletic department here are substantial.

Personally, I like Medved better. If he can bring some of his current guys (especially Roddy)then he will hit the ground running.

 

[pittzip]

Personally, I like Medved better. If he can bring some of his current guys (especially Roddy)then he will hit the ground running.

Yea its just a crazy that people think retaining capel another year is a good idea.

Its going to get tough

Let's just see


2 to 3 wins won't do it.

 

[Franb]

Yea its just a crazy that people think retaining capel another year is a good idea.

Its going to get tough

Let's just see


2 to 3 wins won't do it.

I want to see how the season plays out before deciding whether keeping him is a good idea. There is no need to make that choice now.

 

[pittzip]

I agree @Franb

would love nothing more to crush it and keep Capel, TBH.
But the schedule is daunting, we only played one top 50 team in Kenpom and theyre all coming at once.

Plus, every win people are like "Capel back" and noone knows besides HL.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

Your whole point comes down to you'd rather be mediocre or maybe if everything falls right a little better than medicore next year and then completely rebuild the year after next then just get on with it and start rebuilding next year.

And you are certainly entitled to that opinion, but in the long run it's a dumb way to run a program.

I want the CHANCE at an NCAAT with a potential AA in Hugley, 2 key transfers, and modest-moderate improvements from the others. I need to be semi-excited for a Pitt season and to have hope. I need that as a fan. We can hire the MM guy any time. They're a dime a dozen. We can hire a monkey to throw darts at a wall and maybe it lands on a great coach's name to hire. Give me this team next year UNLESS you can get a guarantee.

 

[pittzip]

I want the CHANCE at an NCAAT with a potential AA in Hugley, 2 key transfers, and modest-moderate improvements from the others. I need to be semi-excited for a Pitt season and to have hope. I need that as a fan. We can hire the MM guy any time. They're a dime a dozen. We can hire a monkey to throw darts at a wall and maybe it lands on a great coach's name to hire. Give me this team next year UNLESS you can get a guarantee.

With all due respect, the ACC is not going to be down next year. Cuse has a top 15 class, UVA does too.
So 2 out of our 3 wins are from Cuse and LVille right now. Im pretty convinced if Mack didnt coach the game we would have lost, players hated Mach.
Regardless, Lville will hit the ball rolling and make an amazing hire. They're one of the most profitable athletic departments in the country.
So where does that leave us this year? We lose the production of Mo, which is bad. Sibande is not an ACC player.
It will be the same result next year. If they cant get it done NOW, when the ACC is down, they wont do it next year.
Everyone will improve and will be back to square one.
Not to mention the Pete will be empty.

edit: and no, Medved wont wait around for another year. He will be gone. This is the year to make a change.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

With all due respect, the ACC is not going to be down next year. Cuse has a top 15 class, UVA does too.
So 2 out of our 3 wins are from Cuse and LVille right now. Im pretty convinced if Mack didnt coach the game we would have lost, players hated Mach.
Regardless, Lville will hit the ball rolling and make an amazing hire. They're one of the most profitable athletic departments in the country.
So where does that leave us this year? We lose the production of Mo, which is bad. Sibande is not an ACC player.
It will be the same result next year. If they cant get it done NOW, when the ACC is down, they wont do it next year.
Everyone will improve and will be back to square one.
Not to mention the Pete will be empty.

edit: and no, Medved wont wait around for another year. He will be gone. This is the year to make a change.

Medved isnt a MM coach. He will also be the "Nate Oats" of this year's carousel so I doubt we land him. We wouldn't pay Oats his asking and settled for Capel.

 

[pittzip]

Medved isnt a MM coach. He will also be the "Nate Oats" of this year's carousel so I doubt we land him. We wouldn't pay Oats his asking and settled for Capel.

So if he's the Nate oats coach why would that be bad?

And no we never even offered oats so you're wrong.

 

[KennyHeisman8]

So if he's the Nate oats coach why would that be bad?

And no we never even offered oats so you're wrong.

You are claiming to be some great insider but yet you didn't even know the team hadn't left Pittsburgh yet today?

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

So if he's the Nate oats coach why would that be bad?

And no we never even offered oats so you're wrong.

Medved would be good but I meant he will be the Oats as in the #1 "moving up" candidate in college basketball.

And we did offer Oats. Could have had him for $4 million per.

Sean Miller 'not a candidate' for Pitt; sources say he and Heather Lyke discussed job

Miller just finished his ninth season as Arizona head coach, and this year has been more tumultuous than most.

www.post-gazette.com

 

[TD_6082]

Then you better make a flashy hire and not Medved because that won't put any butts in the seat.

Capel, at the time, was a pretty damn flashy hire and he got a lot of people back in the building. A mid major coach that frankly 90% of PIttsburgh has never heard of is not going to move the needle like getting a guy who was considered the top assistant in the country, who had previously recruited Blake Griffin, and sat next to coach K for 9 years.

Frankly, you would need to hire someone on Nate Oats level, and not some dude from Colorado State, even if I think it would be a good hire.

Capel wasn't a flashy hire. He was booted fron OU after losing control of the program there and had been an assistant for several years. He lost the team at Duke when filling in as an interim for K when he was out with one of his ailments. Capel was a back up plan after Pitt whiffed on Danny Hurley.

Just my opinion, but I think the thought process was that Capel could boost recruiting and give Pitt an identity in the ACC, something which the program has lacked since becoming a member.

I'm all for giving a coach every opportunity to build their program and have success, so I don't have a problem with Capel getting another year. But I don’t think Pitt will be very good next year if the entire roster returns, regardless of the coach.

If they decide to keep Capel, it's simply because they are making an emphasis to support their coach and believe that approach will pay dividends over the long haul. However, and this is just my opinion, but I think the Pitt brass probably feels that trust was violated in the way last year played out (and the way this year started) & this year is basically his mulligan which he gets to hang himself.

 

[KennyHeisman8]

Capel wasn't a flashy hire. He was booted fron OU after losing control of the program there and had been an assistant for several years. He lost the team at Duke when filling in as an interim for K when he was out with one of his ailments. Capel was a back up plan after Pitt whiffed on Danny Hurley.

Just my opinion, but I think the thought process was that Capel could boost recruiting and give Pitt an identity in the ACC, something which the program has lacked since becoming a member.

I'm all for giving a coach every opportunity to build their program and have success, so I don't have a problem with Capel getting another year. But I don’t think Pitt will be very good next year if the entire roster returns, regardless of the coach.

If they decide to keep Capel, it's simply because they are making an emphasis to support their coach and believe that approach will pay dividends over the long haul. However, and this is just my opinion, but I think the Pitt brass probably feels that trust was violated in the way last year played out (and the way this year started) & this year is basically his mulligan which he gets to hang himself.

He was considered a slam dunk. Don’t play revisionist.

 

[TD_6082]

He was considered a slam dunk. Don’t play revisionist.

Sure. The guy that bombed at OU was considered a slam dunk at Pitt.

Perhaps Pitt fans thought it was a slam dunk. Others in the national media were happy Capel got the opportunity and gave lip service to it being a great hire. I think that has more to do with Capel's background as a player and the program he was associated with more than anything. Perhaps also being the son of a coach and his dad's fight with ALS made him an easy guy to root for.

But let's be real here, there is absolutely nothing in his resume or background that suggested Capel was a slam dunk hire for Pitt.

 

[DC_Area_Panther]

Sure. The guy that bombed at OU was considered a slam dunk at Pitt.

Perhaps Pitt fans thought it was a slam dunk. Others in the national media were happy Capel got the opportunity and gave lip service to it being a great hire. I think that has more to do with Capel's background as a player and the program he was associated with more than anything. Perhaps also being the son of a coach and his dad's fight with ALS made him an easy guy to root for.

But let's be real here, there is absolutely nothing in his resume or background that suggested Capel was a slam dunk hire for Pitt.

To be completely fair regarding the perception of the Capel hire, most Pitt fans hope was based more on the perceived recruiting piece he was expected to bring to the table than on the X's and O's part of coaching. Also, anything decent after the Stallings debacle looked very good because----

(1) The Stallings hire was hated by the fan base from the day he was announced. He was immediately regarded as step down from Dixon.
(2) Stallings took what many (most?) Pitt fans believed was a halfway decent amount of talent left behind by Dixon that could/should be a foundation to be built upon. Instead (whether or not this was Stallings' fault has been, and can be, debated) everthing blew up (or was deliberately blown up) resulting in a PITT team that was constantly being blown out and couldn't even reach a ten win season.

Then, Capel added the three players (Johnson, McGowens and Toney) as late recruits and the team moved from Stallings' 8-24 (0-18 ACC) to Capel's 14-19 (3-15 ACC) and there was a glimmer of hope that things had begun to be turned around. Unfortunately, things have plateaued since then to bring us to where we are today.

Based on this history, it is no surprise that Capel looked like a slam-dunk hire compared to what had transpired before. Slam-dunk hire or not, he has proven to be far less bad at Pitt than Stallings.

 

[TD_6082]

To be completely fair regarding the perception of the Capel hire, most Pitt fans ope was based more on the perceived recruiting piece he was expected to bring to the table than on the X's and O's part of coaching. Also, anything decent after the Stallings debacle looked very good because----

(1) The Stallings hire was hated by the fan base from the day he was announced. He was immediately regarded as step down from Dixon.
(2) Stallings took what many (most?) Pitt fans believed was a halfway decent amount of talent left behind by Dixon that could/should be a foundation to be built upon. Instead (whether or not this was Stallings' fault has been, and can be, debated) everthing blew up (or was deliberately blown up) resulting in a PITT team that was constantly being blown out and couldn't even reach a ten win season.

Then, Capel added the three players (Johnson, McGowens and Toney) as late recruits and the team moved from Stallings' 8-24 (0-18 ACC) to Capel's 14-19 (3-15 ACC) and there was a glimmer of hope that things had begun to be turned around. Unfortunately, things have plateaued since then to bring us to where we are today.

Based on this history, it is no surprise that Capel looked like a slam-dunk hire compared to what had transpired before. Slam-dunk hire or not, he has proven to be far less bad at Pitt than Stallings.

Exactly my point. You spent a lot of time writing about Stallings and said practically nothing as to why Capel was a good hire. There was nothing in his resume that suggested he would.

Stallings & Capel are two totally different type of coaches. Stallings is a program builder. He recruits high character guys he can work with that often have to be developed and the payout is rarely immediate. And once he does have his guys in place, there is nothing in his resume that suggest that he can do better than where Jamie had Pitt his last 5 years. Capel targets guys you see in your Rivals rankings, but his teams rarely seem to mesh and almost always underachieve. Capel is a poor man's Will Wade and Will Wade basketball is a mostly underachieving collection of talent that is painful to watch.

There isn't really much of a place for either type in today's game. The best fit for today's game is a guy that can go out and get fresh ingredients every year and get it to mesh. They should also be comfortable at flipping an entire roster over every year. Not that they will have to every year, but they need to be comfortable doing it.

 

[PittPharm2002]

I was fully on board the fire capel train earlier this year. But I am in wait-and-see mode. I think the buyout factors in and I also think the ability to keep these players for another year factors in. Mark Whipple should have been fired before 2021 but kept his job because we wanted to keep Kenny Pickett. And that worked out well. It’s not exactly the same, but it could be similar for capel if that means keeping the key players.

There is no doubt it is a sad state of affairs when keeping a coach as unsuccessful as capel is is even a consideration. But I think the reality is it might not be worth pulling the plug on him after this year just yet.

I would still be willing to fire him though if key players transfer out after the year. Even if they are respectable down the stretch and win some games here. To me having a decent roster next year is critical and we could have that if key pieces stay.

You’ve summarized my feelings pretty well

 

[pittzip]

The last 11 games will determine Capel's future.
I think thats a fair way to judge the situation too.

 

[gary2]

Pitt under Capel resembles Duquesne under Dambrot.

Both coaches seem to enjoy a level of respect, I suspect they don’t deserve.

Both secure good players but can’t seem to maintain a roster. There is a constant churn.

Something is wrong and don’t tell me it is just the age of the portal.

 

[PittPharm2002]

Exactly my point. You spent a lot of time writing about Stallings and said practically nothing as to why Capel was a good hire. There was nothing in his resume that suggested he would.

Stallings & Capel are two totally different type of coaches. Stallings is a program builder. He recruits high character guys he can work with that often have to be developed and the payout is rarely immediate. And once he does have his guys in place, there is nothing in his resume that suggest that he can do better than where Jamie had Pitt his last 5 years. Capel targets guys you see in your Rivals rankings, but his teams rarely seem to mesh and almost always underachieve. Capel is a poor man's Will Wade and Will Wade basketball is a mostly underachieving collection of talent that is painful to watch.

There isn't really much of a place for either type in today's game. The best fit for today's game is a guy that can go out and get fresh ingredients every year and get it to mesh. They should also be comfortable at flipping an entire roster over every year. Not that they will have to every year, but they need to be comfortable doing it.

Nothing needs said about Stallings .
Worst coach we ever had , stole 2 years of salary - got a show cause penalty from the ncaa - because despite cheating was terrible

 

[pittzip]

So whats everyone guesses for wins in this group?
anywhere from 2-4 is my guess.

 

[gary2]

So whats everyone guesses for wins in this group?
anywhere from 2-4 is my guess.

I can’t see anyone being encouraged with anything less than 2-2 in the next 4.

 

[TD_6082]

Nothing needs said about Stallings .
Worst coach we ever had , stole 2 years of salary - got a show cause penalty from the ncaa - because despite cheating was terrible

Stallings was 3-13 in the SEC in his 4th year at Vandy. The way he builds, it takes a lot of patience to get results. He went to 7 NCAAs in his last 13 years at Vandy with only one losing season during that span. I hav little doubt he would have probably done about the same thing at Pitt if given time.

The worst part of the Stallings hire at Pitt, is that even if they did have the patience to let him build his type of program, his ceiling is still only somewhere between 20 & 25 wins with little to no chance of deep runs in the NCAA tourney. That won't cut it very long. Nor should it.

 

[KennyHeisman8]

Stallings was 3-13 in the SEC in his 4th year at Vandy. The way he builds, it takes a lot of patience to get results. He went to 7 NCAAs in his last 13 years at Vandy with only one losing season during that span. I hav little doubt he would have probably done about the same thing at Pitt if given time.

The worst part of the Stallings hire at Pitt, is that even if they did have the patience to let him build his type of program, his ceiling is still only somewhere between 20 & 25 wins with little to no chance of deep runs in the NCAA tourney. That won't cut it very long. Nor should it.

lol. More stallings defending.

 

[pittjas]

lol. More stallings defending.

Stallings is a better coach than Capel. Capel just more likable. Neither gave Pitt their best effort

 

[TD_6082]

lol. More stallings defending.

I'm not defending anything. His 2 years st Pitt were terrible, and he was never going to win enough at Pitt to keep a job long term.

That said, he did win enough to hold a job for 17 years at Vanderbilt before being nudged out.

Much like Jamie at Pitt, when the fanbase doesn't believe their veteran coach is capable of much more than a .500 conference record and 1st weekend exit from the NCAAs going forward, it's probably time to move on.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

Stallings was 3-13 in the SEC in his 4th year at Vandy. The way he builds, it takes a lot of patience to get results. He went to 7 NCAAs in his last 13 years at Vandy with only one losing season during that span. I hav little doubt he would have probably done about the same thing at Pitt if given time.

The worst part of the Stallings hire at Pitt, is that even if they did have the patience to let him build his type of program, his ceiling is still only somewhere between 20 & 25 wins with little to no chance of deep runs in the NCAA tourney. That won't cut it very long. Nor should it.

Stallings probably would have got Pitt back to somewhere close to Dixon II level but it would have taken 4-5 years.

 

[gary2]

Stallings is a better coach than Capel. Capel just more likable. Neither gave Pitt their best effort

More likable? if the water wasn’t poisoned here, I guarantee you he is much more likeable than Capel.

Who likes Capel? Certainly not his first batch of players. What is likable about Capel?

 

[DC_Area_Panther]

Most Pitt fans didn't want a tear it down and rebuild from scratch scenario when Dixon left. They wanted the new coach to build on what Dixon left without going south of 0.500 in Ws vs Ls. They didnt believe Stallings could or would do that--and they were proven right!

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

More likable? if the water wasn’t poisoned here, I guarantee you he is much more likeable than Capel.

People who steal your money generally aren't considered to be very likeable.

 

[HailToPitt1985]

He needs Hugley plus 3 of the 4. No one else matters.

I doubt Hugley is back next year. Possibly others will be gone. Capel will have to replace at least 3 starters.

 

[King Of All Message Boards]

More likable? if the water wasn’t poisoned here, I guarantee you he is much more likeable than Capel.

Who likes Capel? Certainly not his first batch of players. What is likable about Capel?

Please. That presser certainly didn’t do him any favors but this board was apoplectic the night it came out they were hiring that bum. Maybe it poisoned it somewhat for some casuals, but very few if any wanted anything to do with Stallings to begin with. And while he wasn’t given a chance in your eyes, and that’s probably accurate to some degree, that was the case before that presser even occurred for a very large majority of Pitt hoops fans.

It was a garbage lazy hire, and he stunk out loud.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

I doubt Hugley is back next year. Possibly others will be gone. Capel will have to replace at least 3 starters.

Hugley gone = Capel gone.