Barnes Q&A
- Thread starter TIGER-PAUL
- Start date
If 53,775 is the goal and they need to sell 9,770K new season tickets plus have a 93% season ticket renewal rate to get there, it sounds like Pitt had approximately 47,317 season ticket holders in 2015.
What is interesting is that reported attendance last season was below 47K for 4 of the 6 games strongly suggesting that actual attendance, not tickets sold, is what was reported.
We've supposedly been reporting turnstile count for a number of years. Pederson would just inflate the numbers.
Pederson wasn't around last year so is Barnes inflating the numbers too or is Pitt basing the attendance on tickets sold? It's great to have people show up for each game, but I'm sure the athletic department doesn't mind some no shows if the tickets were already paid for.
If you were a ups fan or a notre dame fan last year and wanted to go to the game, would you buy tickets at $90 for the game or buy season tickets for $147 & try to make up the cost for one game on stubhub?
Suggest you stop reading PG. They have a not so hidden agenda.
It is fairly clear that they aren't reporting tickets sold, and that they haven't been for years as numerous prior posts on this board have strongly suggested with math. But you forgot the most important possibility: attendance estimating savants posting on message boards (or even writing columns in newspapers) aren't as accurate as they think.
The three components of growing the base is winning, schedule and marketing. Pitt fighting for shelf space is not as big a deal as may make it out to be. Pitt can be a unique sports position as the big time college program. Pitt BB did prove win and be a factor and fans will come. Narduzzi will win more, the ACC will offer named teams and the OCC schedule will add one or two home games of import. ND, PSU, Oklahoma ST in the near term. All in all, Pitt can average some 50K to 60K and raise ticket pricing incrementally to drive revenue.
I think most schools pad the numbers a little bit, but SP took it to new heights. If you remember the Wednesday night game vs UConn when graham was here, we had 51,000 tickets out, a turnstile count of 17,000, and we listed the attendance at 40,000. No one bought that we had 40k in the house so all you do is look bad when you put that out.
As noted many times before, the ncaa allows 'attendance' to be reported based on several different convoluted scenarios almost all of which do not represent the actual number of people in the stadium. But I agree, SP was an expert at it.
Which is akin to being an expert in self mutilation.
When he was in his prime of being a scoundrel, Charlie Sheen was a cinch to make someone else look like Beaver Cleaver!
Speaking of Beaver Cleaver.
Happily, today PSU has become king of the attendance hill in attendance inflation.
They "announced" 107,000 for the Army game in 2015. These photos qare from BWI. You tell me where the 107,000 people are to be found.
I assume mini-plan holders are not considered season ticket holders. But I don't know that for sure.
Which is akin to being an expert in self mutilation.
When he was in his prime of being a scoundrel, Charlie Sheen was a cinch to make someone else look like Beaver Cleaver!
Speaking of Beaver Cleaver.
Happily, today PSU has become king of the attendance hill in attendance inflation.
They "announced" 107,000 for the Army game in 2015. These photos qare from BWI. You tell me where the 107,000 people are to be found.
And remember, the designated seats on the metal bleachers are quite small, so when it is not full, the fans are actually spread out. Very different than seat backs, and likely even less of a % capacity than it looks.
It will definitely be interesting to see the outcome of Barnes' discussions with the Steelers about improving Pitts branding on the field. From his response, with him saying they already do a lot and that the surface makes it challenging, I'm thinking that nothing changes and he already knows it.
Q: One of the common themes at the town hall a few weeks back was Pitt's branding within Heinz Field on game days. Can you elaborate or give specific plans about improvements there?
SB: We have already begun conversations on the with the Steelers, in terms of what that might look like. And, really, I think we do, overall, a really good job in a lot of areas of making it our own on game day. We need to do more on the field, and that becomes, quite candidly, with a natural surface and the wear and tear on that, it's more of a challenge than it would normally be. But we are having some conversations, and I'm confident that we can make some progress there.
Q: One of the common themes at the town hall a few weeks back was Pitt's branding within Heinz Field on game days. Can you elaborate or give specific plans about improvements there?
SB: We have already begun conversations on the with the Steelers, in terms of what that might look like. And, really, I think we do, overall, a really good job in a lot of areas of making it our own on game day. We need to do more on the field, and that becomes, quite candidly, with a natural surface and the wear and tear on that, it's more of a challenge than it would normally be. But we are having some conversations, and I'm confident that we can make some progress there.
Yes, do they consider them in last year's totals that they are trying to improve on? My original assumption was no, they did not, as they are not season ticket plans. But it hasn't been specifically stated anywhere.
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Most sports teams that sell partial season ticket plans normally give their season ticket base in full season ticket equivalents. In other words with a six game home schedule if you sell three game partial ticket plans and you end up selling 5,000 of them that is the equivalent of 2,500 full season tickets. So if that team sold 30,000 season tickets and 5,000 partial season tickets they would consider that to be a 32,500 season ticket base.
Of course with the way Pitt counts tickets who knows?
You've done it now. When I've posted in the past that there were less than 20,000 people there that day I was called all sorts of names by the people who have always thought that the numbers that Pitt announces are the real, actual attendance.
As I've said before, they ought to do one of two things. Announce the actual, real attendance. The turnstile count. After all, that is how many people are actually at the game. Or, conversely, announce the total number of tickets sold (or distributed). Tell everyone what the policy is going to be going forward. And then stick to it. If you sell 50,000 tickets and 20,000 people show up, announce 50,000. If someone says that number isn't right, tell them that it is the actual number of ticket sold, not the number of people there. And leave it at that.
Instead, for years Pitt has done exactly what you are alluding to. They almost always made up a number that was somewhere in between the total number of tickets sold (or distributed, if you want to count freebies) and the actual number of people who were at the game. Sometimes to a comical extent. For instance there were basketball games earlier this season where there is no way there were even 4,000 people there. No way. So why announce a number such as 7,500 like Pitt did? And since that number isn't the number of season tickets sold, and it's not the number of people actually there, where do numbers like that come from? I can tell you under the previous administration those numbers came straight from the guy at the top of the department. I wonder whose job it is to make those numbers up now?
http://triblive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/sports/college/pitt/s_465583.html
From 2006, but explains some-
Different definitions
Most people would define attendance the same way the dictionary does: "the number of persons that are present."
In sports biz lingo, that's called the turnstile count (also known as the drop count) -- the actual number of bodies in the seats.
But when teams announce their "attendance," the figure usually is something other than the turnstile count.
It could be paid attendance (the number of people present who paid for their seats).
It could be tickets sold (regardless of whether or not the fans actually came to the game).
It could be tickets distributed (the drop count, plus freebies and unused paid tickets).
It could be total attendance (everyone in the venue, regardless of whether they have a ticket).
Inflated numbers
The NCAA asks its members for year-end attendance numbers for football and basketball. Until last summer, football programs that did not have an average turnstile count of 15,000 at home games could have been stripped of Division I-A status.
However, the NCAA relaxed that rule in August 2005. Now, a college must average 15,000 in either paid or actual attendance for all home games once every two years.
The NCAA allows its member schools to set their own methods for calculating attendance.
"We want to portray the attendance in the best possible light," said Jim Wright, the NCAA's director of statistics. "We don't care if a school lets in 3,000 students for free or if they charge everyone half price. We only care about how many people watched the game."
So it's no surprise that the area's three biggest Division I football programs employ different systems. West Virginia uses the turnstile count. Pitt announces tickets sold. Penn State records tickets distributed.
"We're trying to get as accurate a number as we can for the total number of people in the stadium," said Greg Myford, Penn State associate athletic director for marketing and communications.
Beaver Stadium is the second-largest college venue in the country, with a capacity of 107,282. The Nittany Lions drew crowds of 100,000-plus for five of their seven homes games in 2005 -- including three games with more than 109,000.
Penn State has ranked among the top four in Division I-A football attendance for 15 consecutive years. But keep in mind that its total attendance stats are inflated a bit by pom-pom girls, reporters and the Blue Band.
Myford said Penn State does not track the drop count at Beaver Stadium.
"We do not differentiate between paid and comp (tickets) because the people are in the stadium, regardless of their ticket type," he said.
Pitt plays in 65,000-seat Heinz Field, across town from the Oakland campus. The school includes comp tickets in its count, but excludes media and staff passes, band members and such.
Last year, Pitt drew a standing-room crowd of 66,451 for its season-opener against Notre Dame. For the other five games at Heinz Field, the average crowd, based on tickets sold, was 35,036 -- and at some games, the actual crowd appeared to be much smaller than the number announced.
Borghetti said Pitt keeps track of the turnstile count for football games, but he refused to release those figures to the Tribune-Review.
"Gee, I wonder why?" said Jackson, the Temple professor. "How many comps are they giving away• They're trying to get fans in the seats. I bet if you were able to compare the gate receipts to the actual number of people in the stands, the numbers wouldn't match up.
"How would you like to be the CEO of Heinz, and find out the average attendance in the stadium that has your name on it is only a few thousand people?"
John Abrams, Pitt's director of facilities and operations, declined to be interviewed for this story.
The crowds at Pitt men's basketball games are among the best in the Big East. Last season, the Panthers ranked 34th nationally with an average attendance of 10,624, and the Petersen Events Center has been sold out of season tickets since it opened in 2002.
"There are some instances, typically during November and December non-conference (basketball) games, when the crowd is obviously not to capacity," Borghetti said. "In those cases, rather than using the tickets sold number (12,508), we use the turnstile count."
From 2006, but explains some-
Different definitions
Most people would define attendance the same way the dictionary does: "the number of persons that are present."
In sports biz lingo, that's called the turnstile count (also known as the drop count) -- the actual number of bodies in the seats.
But when teams announce their "attendance," the figure usually is something other than the turnstile count.
It could be paid attendance (the number of people present who paid for their seats).
It could be tickets sold (regardless of whether or not the fans actually came to the game).
It could be tickets distributed (the drop count, plus freebies and unused paid tickets).
It could be total attendance (everyone in the venue, regardless of whether they have a ticket).
Inflated numbers
The NCAA asks its members for year-end attendance numbers for football and basketball. Until last summer, football programs that did not have an average turnstile count of 15,000 at home games could have been stripped of Division I-A status.
However, the NCAA relaxed that rule in August 2005. Now, a college must average 15,000 in either paid or actual attendance for all home games once every two years.
The NCAA allows its member schools to set their own methods for calculating attendance.
"We want to portray the attendance in the best possible light," said Jim Wright, the NCAA's director of statistics. "We don't care if a school lets in 3,000 students for free or if they charge everyone half price. We only care about how many people watched the game."
So it's no surprise that the area's three biggest Division I football programs employ different systems. West Virginia uses the turnstile count. Pitt announces tickets sold. Penn State records tickets distributed.
"We're trying to get as accurate a number as we can for the total number of people in the stadium," said Greg Myford, Penn State associate athletic director for marketing and communications.
Beaver Stadium is the second-largest college venue in the country, with a capacity of 107,282. The Nittany Lions drew crowds of 100,000-plus for five of their seven homes games in 2005 -- including three games with more than 109,000.
Penn State has ranked among the top four in Division I-A football attendance for 15 consecutive years. But keep in mind that its total attendance stats are inflated a bit by pom-pom girls, reporters and the Blue Band.
Myford said Penn State does not track the drop count at Beaver Stadium.
"We do not differentiate between paid and comp (tickets) because the people are in the stadium, regardless of their ticket type," he said.
Pitt plays in 65,000-seat Heinz Field, across town from the Oakland campus. The school includes comp tickets in its count, but excludes media and staff passes, band members and such.
Last year, Pitt drew a standing-room crowd of 66,451 for its season-opener against Notre Dame. For the other five games at Heinz Field, the average crowd, based on tickets sold, was 35,036 -- and at some games, the actual crowd appeared to be much smaller than the number announced.
Borghetti said Pitt keeps track of the turnstile count for football games, but he refused to release those figures to the Tribune-Review.
"Gee, I wonder why?" said Jackson, the Temple professor. "How many comps are they giving away• They're trying to get fans in the seats. I bet if you were able to compare the gate receipts to the actual number of people in the stands, the numbers wouldn't match up.
"How would you like to be the CEO of Heinz, and find out the average attendance in the stadium that has your name on it is only a few thousand people?"
John Abrams, Pitt's director of facilities and operations, declined to be interviewed for this story.
The crowds at Pitt men's basketball games are among the best in the Big East. Last season, the Panthers ranked 34th nationally with an average attendance of 10,624, and the Petersen Events Center has been sold out of season tickets since it opened in 2002.
"There are some instances, typically during November and December non-conference (basketball) games, when the crowd is obviously not to capacity," Borghetti said. "In those cases, rather than using the tickets sold number (12,508), we use the turnstile count."
One of the dirty "secrets" of Pitt athletics is that season tickets tend to sell pretty well. There are a lot of no-shows but older alumni renew religiously. I'm not sure if that's good or bad because while it's a steady source of revenue, I would think other money spent on game day would move to the bottom line in larger percentages.
The tickets are cheap, but Pitt fans do not have a culture of going to the games. This is Pitt's fault. The tickets need to be more valuable, which will not happen at Heinz outside one or two good seasons every 10-20 years. The renewed importance placed on football by the admin needs to be combined with a lack of seats, either by tarping them at Heinz or building a new stadium with fewer seats.
Reality
Sell no season tickets for upper end zone which SHOULD be tarped except for Notre Dame. Penn State and West Virginia. For those games you will not tarp and sell game day tickets.
Pitt student body ( present and future alums) is only about 40% of Penn State (Includes 21 Branch campuses) . You should expect Penn State to have more attendance because of the relative size of the two Universities.
HAIL TO PITT!!!!
Everyone reports tickets sold. I have no idea why anyone on here has an issue with that? I mean, when people at state penn dress as blue seats its ok, but if pitt fans dress as yellow seats it is not ok?
Tickets sold is revenue for the school and tickets that cant be sold to the public. Why does it matter if they are no shows? You report tickets sold, that is that.
I would like to get season tickets this year, but live far away, if someone else wants to split a season ticket package, I will certainly go in.
Tickets sold is revenue for the school and tickets that cant be sold to the public. Why does it matter if they are no shows? You report tickets sold, that is that.
I would like to get season tickets this year, but live far away, if someone else wants to split a season ticket package, I will certainly go in.
As has been said before, Pitt most certainly DOES NOT announce tickets sold. We have had years in the past when the Petersen Center was sold out with season tickets. That means that even if the visitor's allotment went totally unused and no students at all got a ticket for the game and Pitt didn't sell even one single game ticket to that game the minimum that Pitt could possibly announce would have still been over 11,000. Yet there have been games every single year at the Pete that had announced crowds several thousand smaller than that. The year that we sold the most season tickets ever at Heinz that we are trying to top this year we had several announced crowds many thousands of people less than the number of season tickets we sold.
In short, you can only think that Pitt announces tickets sold (or tickets distributed) if you completely ignore the facts.
In short, you can only think that Pitt announces tickets sold (or tickets distributed) if you completely ignore the facts.
Ugh.
If you're going to tarp, tarp for all games.
Taking it off for certain teams - especially those ones - is the ultimate bush move.
do you get a share of the money?? I know I don't, cant imagine too many fans see any of this money. Call me greedy but I prioritize the gameday experience much more than Pitt getting more money, but that's just me..
How does opening 10,000 endzone bleacher seats that might not normally be open and making a quarter million off of them negatively impact your experience?
The primary role of an A.D. is to maximize revenues in this day and age, whether through ticket sales, donations, or merchandising. No good A.D. is going to sit there and look at enough money to endow a freaking scholarship in one shot and turn it down. Nor should he.
The primary role of an A.D. is to maximize revenues in this day and age, whether through ticket sales, donations, or merchandising. No good A.D. is going to sit there and look at enough money to endow a freaking scholarship in one shot and turn it down. Nor should he.
So you want to reduce Pitts home field advantage by bringing in fans of the other team?
That, and announce to everybody that our fans only come out to see certain teams, not our own?
well I think you could offer "overflow" game tickets to you season ticket holders first, like we do with PSU and Notre Dame. As far as fans coming to see certain teams, I know it's not ideal but it is the truth, demand is higher for some teams than others. We can't fill 69,000 seats routinely. We never have and likely never will, and as long as we're in Heinz we should look at tarping off the end zone bleachers.
The problem with opening up seats for "the big games" is that people know that you are going to open up seats to "the big games" so there is less incentive to buy season tickets. For instance if you think that the Penn State game this year is enough of an incentive to buy a season ticket but then you find out that at some point in time Pitt is going to put 10,000 single game tickets for that game on sale you have less of an incentive to buy season tickets. The idea behind the tarps is (or at least ought to be) to help create a scarcity of tickets which will drive people to buy season tickets rather than the one game every year that they want to see the most. Removing the tarps at some games removes the incentive to buy season tickets.
