Big 12 TV deal wasnt that great

Sean Miller Fan

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$31.67 million per year per school with ESPN/Fox. This is a per year per school increase over the Texas/OU Big 12 but that is the result of the incredible explosion in sports TV rights revenue. The Big Ten got $62.5 million per year per school but that doesn't include BTN revenue, for which they are a 49% owner of.

The ACC's problem is and always has been they didnt go to the open market in 2010 when they did their TV deal back then. A big reason for that is they wanted Raycom to have a package of games and ESPN agreed to sublicense them a package. So they got $12.9 million per year per school. Then they added Pitt and Syracuse and got a small bump. Then Louisville and ND with another small bump. Then another small bump for ACCN which puts them somewhere around $25-30 million per year per school I believe. I would estimate that on the open market, right now, the ACC is worth somewhere in the neighborhood of $40 million to $45 million per year per school NOT including ACCN revenue. But they'll never see "market revenue" because of their original sin in 2010.
 

HailtoPitt

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$31.67 million per year per school with ESPN/Fox. This is a per year per school increase over the Texas/OU Big 12 but that is the result of the incredible explosion in sports TV rights revenue. The Big Ten got $62.5 million per year per school but that doesn't include BTN revenue, for which they are a 49% owner of.

The ACC's problem is and always has been they didnt go to the open market in 2010 when they did their TV deal back then. A big reason for that is they wanted Raycom to have a package of games and ESPN agreed to sublicense them a package. So they got $12.9 million per year per school. Then they added Pitt and Syracuse and got a small bump. Then Louisville and ND with another small bump. Then another small bump for ACCN which puts them somewhere around $25-30 million per year per school I believe. I would estimate that on the open market, right now, the ACC is worth somewhere in the neighborhood of $40 million to $45 million per year per school NOT including ACCN revenue. But they'll never see "market revenue" because of their original sin in 2010.

Football budgets will be mostly the same for schools in the ACC, B12 and Big Ten. Most of that extra revenue goes to support the overall athletic departments for sports people don't watch.
 

Sean Miller Fan

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Football budgets will be mostly the same for schools in the ACC, B12 and Big Ten. Most of that extra revenue goes to support the overall athletic departments for sports people don't watch.
Well, not really. Football budgets in the B10 will be double the ACC but because the schools cant pay the players out of that money, the only thing they can spend all the extra money on is coaching and facilities. And while yes, a school like Rutgers or Indiana would probably be able to pay Dabo more than Clemson can, it doesn't mean the Big Ten and SEC will have the 32 best coaching staffs. Yes, they'll poach more coaches from the ACC but in the grand scheme of things that wont matter that much. And the extra stuff they do with facilities isn't going to be the difference of a kid picking Maryland over NC State. Basically, from a competitive standpoint, the extra money does very little.
 

pittdan77

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$31.67 million per year per school with ESPN/Fox. This is a per year per school increase over the Texas/OU Big 12 but that is the result of the incredible explosion in sports TV rights revenue. The Big Ten got $62.5 million per year per school but that doesn't include BTN revenue, for which they are a 49% owner of.

The ACC's problem is and always has been they didnt go to the open market in 2010 when they did their TV deal back then. A big reason for that is they wanted Raycom to have a package of games and ESPN agreed to sublicense them a package. So they got $12.9 million per year per school. Then they added Pitt and Syracuse and got a small bump. Then Louisville and ND with another small bump. Then another small bump for ACCN which puts them somewhere around $25-30 million per year per school I believe. I would estimate that on the open market, right now, the ACC is worth somewhere in the neighborhood of $40 million to $45 million per year per school NOT including ACCN revenue. But they'll never see "market revenue" because of their original sin in 2010.
The ACC is getting a pretty sizeable bump from ESPN based on contract escalation and the ACCN revenue has tripled in just a few years. Conference is already back at the table with ESPN because there are a lot of open spots ESPN needs to fill that the B1G will be vacating.

The valuation of the Big12 proves that TV doesn't want to get rid of the P5. Just proves that the people who cover CFB are full of crap.
 

Sean Miller Fan

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The ACC is getting a pretty sizeable bump from ESPN based on contract escalation and the ACCN revenue has tripled in just a few years. Conference is already back at the table with ESPN because there are a lot of open spots ESPN needs to fill that the B1G will be vacating.

The valuation of the Big12 proves that TV doesn't want to get rid of the P5. Just proves that the people who cover CFB are full of crap.
The ACC has and will continue to get small bumps but these bumps do not equate to "market value." If the ACC went to market today, they would get a ton more than what their current contract pays them. ESPN is under no obligation to pay them a fair market rate. They are obligated to pay them what is in their old contract.

Also, off subject, there is talk that the P12 TV contract, which Amazon is likely to be part of will surpass the B12. So much for the B12 raiding the P12.
 

pittdan77

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The ACC has and will continue to get small bumps but these bumps do not equate to "market value." If the ACC went to market today, they would get a ton more than what their current contract pays them. ESPN is under no obligation to pay them a fair market rate. They are obligated to pay them what is in their old contract.
It's not ironclad and locked down. If it was the Big12 wouldn't have been able to go back to market early, either. You were saying a few months ago that the ACC can't every achieve a competitive market value and that it had better get some sort of merger going to save itself. Now you're trying to argue it is undervalued because it didn't do a new TV deal 12 years ago? Come on.
 

Sean Miller Fan

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It's not ironclad and locked down. If it was the Big12 wouldn't have been able to go back to market early, either. You were saying a few months ago that the ACC can't every achieve a competitive market value and that it had better get some sort of merger going to save itself. Now you're trying to argue it is undervalued because it didn't do a new TV deal 12 years ago? Come on.
The Big 12 didn't go back to market early. Their deal is expiring soon.

And I stand by what I have always said:

- the ACC has never and likely will never get a fair market value TV deal because they didnt go to the open market in 2010. Because of this, their current deal is undervalued
 

pittdan77

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The Big 12 didn't go back to market early. Their deal is expiring soon.

And I stand by what I have always said:

- the ACC has never and likely will never get a fair market value TV deal because they didnt go to the open market in 2010. Because of this, their current deal is undervalued
They did go back early and you've changed lanes a couple times on the ACC so you should probably go back to making terrible posts that the world can mock.
 
Feb 9, 2007
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Keep in mind, this agreement is only for 1st and 2nd tier rights. Big 12 schools bid out their 3rd tier rights so this isn’t the full picture. Overall a pretty good deal considering Texas and Oklahoma are leaving.
 

Sean Miller Fan

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Keep in mind, this agreement is only for 1st and 2nd tier rights. Big 12 schools bid out their 3rd tier rights so this isn’t the full picture. Overall a pretty good deal considering Texas and Oklahoma are leaving.
Holy sh!t are you people stupid. I hope this is a joke. And if it is, its sure to wind up on Message Board geniuses like my jokes normally do
 

prez41

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Big 12 people beat off to tier 3 rights in the same way fat 10 people beat off about attendance. Really weird obsessions.
 

HailtoPitt

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Well, not really. Football budgets in the B10 will be double the ACC but because the schools cant pay the players out of that money, the only thing they can spend all the extra money on is coaching and facilities. And while yes, a school like Rutgers or Indiana would probably be able to pay Dabo more than Clemson can, it doesn't mean the Big Ten and SEC will have the 32 best coaching staffs. Yes, they'll poach more coaches from the ACC but in the grand scheme of things that wont matter that much. And the extra stuff they do with facilities isn't going to be the difference of a kid picking Maryland over NC State. Basically, from a competitive standpoint, the extra money does very little.

I don't know. If Pitt joined the Big Ten or SEC tomorrow, and saw an additional $20 million per year in revenue per yar, then I think 90% of it would go to other sports.

These dollars really should be going towards reducing the burden on the state governments (in most cases) in funding the academic institutions. But instead... the next coaching failure needs another huge buyout.
 

Sean Miller Fan

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You hope what’s a joke? The Big 12 has bid out their 3rd tier rights for about a decade now.
#1 3rd tier rights have very close to $0 value. How much do you think AT&T SportsNet pays to televise WVU vs Towson? Probably less than $100K.

#2 The Big 12's new TV deal with ESPN/FOX is for ALL Big 12 content. ALL OF IT.
 

Sean Miller Fan

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I don't know. If Pitt joined the Big Ten or SEC tomorrow, and saw an additional $20 million per year in revenue per yar, then I think 90% of it would go to other sports.

These dollars really should be going towards reducing the burden on the state governments (in most cases) in funding the academic institutions. But instead... the next coaching failure needs another huge buyout.
No, what you are going to see is coaching salaries go through the roof and Pitt would have to keep up. These schools are running out of places to spend this money since they cant pay the players with it. So you're going to see a drastic increase in coaching salaries. You'll probably have head coaches making $10 million/year and some Coordinators making $5 million/year.
 
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Big 12 people beat off to tier 3 rights in the same way fat 10 people beat off about attendance. Really weird obsessions.

What’s wrong with adding proper context to the “wasn’t that great” deal that was announced? I guarantee you 99 out of 100 people on this board didn’t know the whenever the Big 12 announces a deal like this, that they are only announcing 2/3 (at best) revenue numbers. Every other league announces a deal like this and it contains all 3 tiers. An apples to apples comparison to any other league would include the additional $10-$12 million we get for 3rd tier rights, for example, that we bid out.

Fans of other conferences (PAC and ACC specifically) jump on these announcements without having any knowledge and full context of the deal. PAC fans think we just got shafted when, in reality, our revenue numbers just for TV rights will far exceed $40 MM per school. It will exceed $50MM in totality.
 
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#1 3rd tier rights have very close to $0 value. How much do you think AT&T SportsNet pays to televise WVU vs Towson? Probably less than $100K.

#2 The Big 12's new TV deal with ESPN/FOX is for ALL Big 12 content. ALL OF IT.

#1 WVU alone earns $10-$12 MM for 3rd tier rights annually.

#2 No it’s not. 3rd tier media (radio and advertising, etc) rights are separate from this. TV, yes.
 

Joe the Panther Fan

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What’s wrong with adding proper context to the “wasn’t that great” deal that was announced? I guarantee you 99 out of 100 people on this board didn’t know the whenever the Big 12 announces a deal like this, that they are only announcing 2/3 (at best) revenue numbers. Every other league announces a deal like this and it contains all 3 tiers. An apples to apples comparison to any other league would include the additional $10-$12 million we get for 3rd tier rights, for example, that we bid out.

Fans of other conferences (PAC and ACC specifically) jump on these announcements without having any knowledge and full context of the deal. PAC fans think we just got shafted when, in reality, our revenue numbers just for TV rights will far exceed $40 MM per school. It will exceed $50MM in totality.


Actually in the story about this on line yesterday it explicitly said that the third tier rights ARE included as a part of the deal.

WVU only gets anywhere close to $10-$12 million per year in 3rd tier rights because they count pretty much everything that isn't a part of the television deals as 3rd tier rights. Sure, that one football and a couple basketball games every year, but the large majority of the money is for things like radio rights and athletic department sponsorships. And I'm going to let you in on a little secret. Everyone else sells things like radio right and athletic department sponsorships too. EVERYONE gets money from those right, not just Big 12 schools.

The difference is that the Big 12 schools like pretending that that's something different than what everyone else does, so they could make their deal look not quite as bad as it was.
 
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Joe the Panther Fan

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For instance, from ESPN's article on the deal yesterday:

"This extension will mark the end of what's known as third-tier rights for the Big 12, in which schools controlled certain game inventory. Instead, those third-tier rights will be distributed to ESPN, which means the schools no longer have to sell them."

In other words, those games are all included, and instead of ending up on places like AT&T Pittsburgh they will all be on ESPN+.
 
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Sean Miller Fan

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#1 WVU alone earns $10-$12 MM for 3rd tier rights annually.

#2 No it’s not. 3rd tier media (radio and advertising, etc) rights are separate from this. TV, yes.
You are an embarrassment to humanity. I can't believe I am taking the time to explain something that is so easy and basic to understand.

Every college program owns their own "3rd tier rights." You mention that WVU owns its own radio and advertising as 3rd tier rights. Who the eff do you think owns Pitt's radio broadcasting or Clemson's radio advertising? Yea, uh, the schools, not ESPN. If you say that WVU makes $10-$12 million off 3rd tier media revenue, first of all, no effing way. Second of all, if they do, then Clemson, UNC, FSU, etc would make more than that from their "3rd tier media revenue."

What the old Big 12 TV deal did was give the schools the rights to 1 football game and 5 basketball games. They called this "3rd tier rights." Texas used that to sell a network to ESPN. Everyone else sold those games to local regional sports networks for next to nothing. Again, WVU vs Towson probably made WVU about $50K from ATTSN. Big 12 propogandists then lumped in other things like ticket sales, stadium signage, corporate sponsorships, etc as "3rd tier rights" and said "we make $10-$12 million off 3rd tier rights." Great, $11,900,000 of that is from stuff every program owns its own rights to. $100,000 of it is from the annual B12 vs FCS Labor Day weekend game that is sold to an RSN. And FWIW, 9 of the 10 Big 12 schools sold those games to ESPN+ about 5 years ago so its been awhile since they've even owned them.

And for the last time, this new contract is for EVERY Big 12 hosted game. No Big 12 programs will own any live game content that they can sell on their own.
 

Joe the Panther Fan

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Again, WVU vs Towson probably made WVU about $50K from ATTSN.


To be technically correct, that isn't even the way that WVU's deal with ATT worked. ATT does not pay West Virginia for those rights. West Virginia BUYS airtime from ATT, West Virginia produces the games (or more likely pays someone to do it for them), West Virginia sells the advertising for the games, and then after expenses West Virginia splits the profits from those games with ATT.

And the deal works that way because ATT knew that there really wasn't any money to be made from those games. It's the same reason that they dropped the ACC football and basketball packages. They can't really make any money on them. From a financial sense it makes them more money to just sell the airtime and let West Virginia worry about everything else.
 
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HailtoPitt

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#1 WVU alone earns $10-$12 MM for 3rd tier rights annually.

#2 No it’s not. 3rd tier media (radio and advertising, etc) rights are separate from this. TV, yes.

Lol. It's been years since WVU fans have been on the Lair touting their "third tier" rights. Takes me back!

Maybe we can get RutgersAl to post next?
 

Sean Miller Fan

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To be technically correct, that isn't even the way that WVU's deal with ATT worked. ATT does not pay West Virginia for those rights. West Virginia BUYS airtime from ATT, West Virginia produces the games (or more likely pays someone to do it for them), West Virginia sells the advertising for the games, and then after expenses West Virginia splits the profits from those games with ATT.

And the deal works that way because ATT knew that there really wasn't any money to be made from those games. It's the same reason that they dropped the ACC football and basketball packages. They can't really make any money on them. From a financial sense it makes them more money to just sell the airtime and let West Virginia worry about everything else.

Yea, I forgot about that part. A couple things though. I dont think WVU actually had to buy airtime from ATTSN for live games. I think it was more like "we'll produce and televise these shitty games but selling commercials is on you and we get X% of the commercial revenue." Now, the coaches' and highlight shows, that they do buy airtime for.

I cant imagine WVU made more than $100K/year off of these games.
 

Joe the Panther Fan

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Yea, I forgot about that part. A couple things though. I dont think WVU actually had to buy airtime from ATTSN for live games. I think it was more like "we'll produce and televise these shitty games but selling commercials is on you and we get X% of the commercial revenue." Now, the coaches' and highlight shows, that they do buy airtime for.

I cant imagine WVU made more than $100K/year off of these games.


But here's the question. Does West Virginia even have a deal the AT&T anymore, or are they a part of the ESPN+ group?
 

Sean Miller Fan

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But here's the question. Does West Virginia even have a deal the AT&T anymore, or are they a part of the ESPN+ group?
No. I said that in my prior post. ESPN+ bought (or probably more accurate to say were given) those games from 9 of the 10 B12 programs about 5 years ago. So, yea, the B12 schools dont even own "3rd tier" games any longer.
 

pittdan77

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To be technically correct, that isn't even the way that WVU's deal with ATT worked. ATT does not pay West Virginia for those rights. West Virginia BUYS airtime from ATT, West Virginia produces the games (or more likely pays someone to do it for them), West Virginia sells the advertising for the games, and then after expenses West Virginia splits the profits from those games with ATT.

And the deal works that way because ATT knew that there really wasn't any money to be made from those games. It's the same reason that they dropped the ACC football and basketball packages. They can't really make any money on them. From a financial sense it makes them more money to just sell the airtime and let West Virginia worry about everything else.
And the funky math behind the "big value" was that they treated what they paid for most of it as sunk cost.
 

recruitsreadtheseboards

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$31.67 million per year per school with ESPN/Fox. This is a per year per school increase over the Texas/OU Big 12 but that is the result of the incredible explosion in sports TV rights revenue. The Big Ten got $62.5 million per year per school but that doesn't include BTN revenue, for which they are a 49% owner of.

The ACC's problem is and always has been they didnt go to the open market in 2010 when they did their TV deal back then. A big reason for that is they wanted Raycom to have a package of games and ESPN agreed to sublicense them a package. So they got $12.9 million per year per school. Then they added Pitt and Syracuse and got a small bump. Then Louisville and ND with another small bump. Then another small bump for ACCN which puts them somewhere around $25-30 million per year per school I believe. I would estimate that on the open market, right now, the ACC is worth somewhere in the neighborhood of $40 million to $45 million per year per school NOT including ACCN revenue. But they'll never see "market revenue" because of their original sin in 2010.
It's amazing that this conference which pulled off the bold raid of the Big East in the early 2000's just seems to be so backwards in everything else it has done since.
 

Sean Miller Fan

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It's amazing that this conference which pulled off the bold raid of the Big East in the early 2000's just seems to be so backwards in everything else it has done since.
Its really just that ONE decision....to not go to market in 2010. But we are actually in the ACC due to that decision. The ACC is very "traditional." They value relationships, partners, etc. They wanted to stay with ESPN and Raycom and ESPN said we'll pay you and let you keep Raycom and the ACC said "that's all we ever wanted."

What they should have done is gone to market with 2-3 different packages and allowed ESPN, Raycom, and Fox to bid for each. If Raycom saw so much value in the ACC, they could have outbid the others for an ACC B or C package.
 
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Not that great? The Big 12 saw a 73% increasexin total revenue and a 5 million per member raise in payout putting it at 47 million minimum. A likely between 50 to 55 million due to the Tier 3 being rolled in and creating a defacto digital conference network. The Big 12 also has a per year escalator (probably at 4%) making it the 3rd highest paid conference per payout ahead of the ACC even with the ACCN. And the Big 12 will be able to go to market again after 6 years.
 
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I find it interesting when in June 2021 when Texas and Oklahoma announced their departure people everywhere predicted the demise of the 8 remaining schools. Predictions were that the remaining 8 schools would be relegated to the AAC and be looking at somewhere around 12m per year on their income from TV rights. Now instead they are looking at an agreement that is equal to the ACC and greater than the PAC. To boot the Big 12 can go to market again in 2030 and be looking at another increase in value. People with vision were thankfully employed by the conference.
Also I saw a report that the Big 12 contract is the only one of the power conferences to have both ESPN & Fox involved in their rights agreement.
 
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Sean Miller Fan

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Not that great? The Big 12 saw a 73% increasexin total revenue and a 5 million per member raise in payout putting it at 47 million minimum. A likely between 50 to 55 million due to the Tier 3 being rolled in and creating a defacto digital conference network. The Big 12 also has a per year escalator (probably at 4%) making it the 3rd highest paid conference per payout ahead of the ACC even with the ACCN. And the Big 12 will be able to go to market again after 6 years.
THERE

IS

NO

TIER

3

THERE

IS

NO

TIER

THREE

Big 12 fans' belief of magical Tier 3 revenue remind me of Qanon folks, Election deniers/conspiracy theorists, etc. I mean these are truly some of the dumbest people on the planet. I can't fathom how dumb you have to be to believe that the ESPN can pay a B12 school $31 million/year for all of its best games but then somehow, they get this extra $20 million for 1 football game vs an FCS team and a few bad non-con basketball teams. Its insane.
 
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Jun 8, 2007
15
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Te
THERE

IS

NO

TIER

3

THERE

IS

NO

TIER

THREE

Big 12 fans' belief of magical Tier 3 revenue remind me of Qanon folks, Election deniers/conspiracy theorists, etc. I mean these are truly some of the dumbest people on the planet. I can't fathom how dumb you have to be to believe that the ESPN can pay a B12 school $31 million/year for all of its best games but then somehow, they get this extra $20 million for 1 football game vs an FCS team and a few bad non-con basketball teams. Its insane.
Technically you are both correct and incorrect SMF, it is true that the extra games money was rolled into the main agreement but all of the other extras (radio, advertising at the venues, product licensing etc) are still separate income as tier 3
 

NKSplitter

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I don't know. If Pitt joined the Big Ten or SEC tomorrow, and saw an additional $20 million per year in revenue per yar,
If ECU could join a conference where they got an extra $20 million per yar, they would by far be the most valuable program in the nation.
 

Joe the Panther Fan

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Technically you are both correct and incorrect SMF, it is true that the extra games money was rolled into the main agreement but all of the other extras (radio, advertising at the venues, product licensing etc) are still separate income as tier 3


They get all the other "extras" that literally, and I do mean literally, every other program in the country gets.

The only people who ever pretended that the "tier 3" money was something above and beyond were Big 12 apologists trying to make it seem like their deal wasn't as bad as it actually was. And as you can see here, some of those people haven't stopped.
 

pittdan77

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I believe the correct evaluation is, they did better than a lot of people thought but not as good as the Big12 apologists thought.

I think what we've learned is this:
  • The reasonable thinking is that the G5 additions plus the loss of the two top brands pulled the overall value of the conference down.
  • Nobody else was worth moving to another conference right now.
  • It is a comparatively short deal so they could, theoretically, build the brand up with these G5 schools and make the conference worth more in ten years.
  • There is a chance the Pac12 does better than this but that's certainly not a given.
The caveat -- and there always is one with the schools that have inhabited whatever they're calling that group -- is that as soon as the product gains some traction, someone bolts.
 

Sean Miller Fan

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Technically you are both correct and incorrect SMF, it is true that the extra games money was rolled into the main agreement but all of the other extras (radio, advertising at the venues, product licensing etc) are still separate income as tier 3
Why would you even talk about "Tier 3" revenue then since its individual athletic department-related revenue that everyone gets? So WVU gets revenue from its radio broadcasts. All other 120 D1 programs do also. WVU gets revenue from t-shirt sales? Fantastic. Do you think ESPN, not Pitt, gets revenue from Pitt t-shirt sales?
 
Dec 8, 2010
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$31.67 million per year per school with ESPN/Fox. This is a per year per school increase over the Texas/OU Big 12 but that is the result of the incredible explosion in sports TV rights revenue. The Big Ten got $62.5 million per year per school but that doesn't include BTN revenue, for which they are a 49% owner of.

The ACC's problem is and always has been they didnt go to the open market in 2010 when they did their TV deal back then. A big reason for that is they wanted Raycom to have a package of games and ESPN agreed to sublicense them a package. So they got $12.9 million per year per school. Then they added Pitt and Syracuse and got a small bump. Then Louisville and ND with another small bump. Then another small bump for ACCN which puts them somewhere around $25-30 million per year per school I believe. I would estimate that on the open market, right now, the ACC is worth somewhere in the neighborhood of $40 million to $45 million per year per school NOT including ACCN revenue. But they'll never see "market revenue" because of their original sin in 2010.
The greed of all of these schools and their "conferences" is ruining the sport. Until ALL OF THEM agree to unite and develop a system that works for the entire sport, they are full participants in its demise.