Boston College Game & Other Dribbles ...

[pitt-girl]

I know I'm clearly in the minority, but I'm okay with this season. It's more of a gut feel that the players are being coached and are TRYING. I feel certain our Panthers will be much better in a couple of years.

Beyond that, I'll leave the teeth gnashing to others. Hail to Pitt.

 

[pittbb80]

I get the feeling of disappointment.....and I was one of the folks who thought they would pull off a minor miracle after the FSU and VIlle wins and make the NIT. But the reality is this

Our best players are true frosh.....I think we all knew it at the time but relying on three frosh to carry the team in the ACC is asking way too much. The young pups dont have a lot of support and are pressing.

Beyond the three frosh the other three key contributors are Syd, JWF, and Brown. Syd was hurt but is playing well. I've come to really respect JWF for being a stand up guy but he just is not talented enough to carry the team. Hes more of a role player. Brown I think we'll be a very consistent and solid contributor perhaps even next year, but he's still on the early part of his development curve (which is typical for most bigs)

I also like Kham a lot because he plays with heart but kham is again a role player at this point.

OTher than the three frosh this team is not that talented now and certainly not very deep. When X who has carried the team has an off night they are not going to win many games. When X and Trey are off...........it will be ugly.

I think its important to put that in perspective and not get down on the team or the staff. What they;ve done is still impressive and they will be poised with this years additions to make a run at the NCAAs next year. IMO, that is all you can ask for after the dumpster fire that Stallings and Bozo Barnes left behind.

 

[pittjas]

I've never been one to buy into the concept of physical fatigue over the course of the season (injuries notwithstanding). All teams play lots of minutes, and more importantly, all teams PRACTICE tons of minutes over the course of the season.

But the concept of "mental fatigue" may be something different. That is ... winning teams "look energized," while losing teams "look tired." And one must recognize that when you no longer have a "shot at the title," deep down, even without knowing, a team may not be giving it their all.

And despite whether or not you believe in any type of fatigue at all and think this is just perspective and perception, it's hard not to think that our team is playing with just a little bit less "pep in their step" that they were, even just a month ago.

I also believe that our “pep in our step” varies based on the opponent.

The Wake and BC games, we just don’t seem to have the same “urgency” we do against some of the better teams.

When we have the chance to build a 6-8 point lead, we seem to coast and be content with keeping it around a tie. The problem is, the end of the game comes and other other team who’s at home and/or slightly more talented pulls ahead.

It’s not necessarily effort exactly. This team always plays hard, or at least intends to. But watching how they’ve played against Louisville twice, NC State twice, Syracuse at home, even Duke, tells me they are capable of more than they showed the last two Tuesdays.

 

[Pitt5593]

Xavier will add that part of his game. We need a backup and we need a post player.

Brown is so frustrating. He plays one good game and then disappears for two weeks. Just no basketball instincts.

 

[TD_6082]

I know I'm clearly in the minority, but I'm okay with this season. It's more of a gut feel that the players are being coached and are TRYING. I feel certain our Panthers will be much better in a couple of years.

Beyond that, I'll leave the teeth gnashing to others. Hail to Pitt.

The results were expected. Everyone knew this team was bad going in. They desperately need an infusion of talent. It's not going to happen overnight, although I was hopeful for much more from Capel in recruiting.

Imo, this team appears to be poorly coached and I see little evidence they are making any kind of improvement.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

Quit watching the ball and find your man!!!!

That's actually the opposite of Brown's problem. Brown ALWAYS looks for someone to box out, even if there isn't anyone there. To the point where he stops paying attention to where the ball is and where the ball is going. So if the ball doesn't come right to him he doesn't get it. Because he has no idea where it is.

Good rebounders pay way more attention to where the ball is going rather than where the other players are. In fact Sam Clancy had some good quotes about that the other day. He wasn't a great rebounder because he was great at boxing out. He was a great rebounder because he figured out where the ball was going and he went after it hard. No one on this team, with the exception of Toney on occasion, does anything like that.

 

[Bethlehemjohn]

I've never been one to buy into the concept of physical fatigue over the course of the season (injuries notwithstanding). All teams play lots of minutes, and more importantly, all teams PRACTICE tons of minutes over the course of the season.

But the concept of "mental fatigue" may be something different. That is ... winning teams "look energized," while losing teams "look tired." And one must recognize that when you no longer have a "shot at the title," deep down, even without knowing, a team may not be giving it their all.

And despite whether or not you believe in any type of fatigue at all and think this is just perspective and perception, it's hard not to think that our team is playing with just a little bit less "pep in their step" that they were, even just a month ago.

I agree. I don't buy the physical fatigue thing, but I do believe in mental fatigue.

 

[Cincypittfan]

That's actually the opposite of Brown's problem. Brown ALWAYS looks for someone to box out, even if there isn't anyone there. To the point where he stops paying attention to where the ball is and where the ball is going. So if the ball doesn't come right to him he doesn't get it. Because he has no idea where it is.

Good rebounders pay way more attention to where the ball is going rather than where the other players are. In fact Sam Clancy had some good quotes about that the other day. He wasn't a great rebounder because he was great at boxing out. He was a great rebounder because he figured out where the ball was going and he went after it hard. No one on this team, with the exception of Toney on occasion, does anything like that.

That comment was for the whole team but if you have 5 guys trying to anticipate where a jump shot is going you are going to be in for a long season.
You don't stay on your man like a grade school box out drill but you get between him and the ball...that is what is most critical
We have been the victim of numerous stick backs because of guys just wandering around the hoop without a clue.
Been coaching for 25 years...Ball, You, Man principles

 

[thebadby2]

I know I'm clearly in the minority, but I'm okay with this season. It's more of a gut feel that the players are being coached and are TRYING. I feel certain our Panthers will be much better in a couple of years.

Beyond that, I'll leave the teeth gnashing to others. Hail to Pitt.

I'm with you. We have maybe 2 P5 level players, and they're both freshmen. Trey has played like a freshman. Toney may become one as well. How any reasonable person could expect this team to be able to beat any team in the ACC is hard to fathom.

This season, who cares?

Next season--hopefully a little better although no guarantees-losing Wilson-Frame and replacing him with a true frosh or grad transfer may hurt worse than people think. Season after that? We need to be seeing a major leap.

 

[ScrantonicityIII]

I'm with you. We have maybe 2 P5 level players, and they're both freshmen. Trey has played like a freshman. Toney may become one as well. How any reasonable person could expect this team to be able to beat any team in the ACC is hard to fathom.

This season, who cares?

Next season--hopefully a little better although no guarantees-losing Wilson-Frame and replacing him with a true frosh or grad transfer may hurt worse than people think. Season after that? We need to be seeing a major leap.

Agree, I have been saying this all season. This season is about our freshman, and the current recruiting class. People wringing their hands whether we get 3 wins or 5 wins. At the end of the day, who the heck cares? The arrow is pointing up, just takes a bit of patience.

 

[DT_PITT]

Agree, I have been saying this all season. This season is about our freshman, and the current recruiting class. People wringing their hands whether we get 3 wins or 5 wins. At the end of the day, who the heck cares? The arrow is pointing up, just takes a bit of patience.

I agree. What we do want to see however, is the group playing their best basketball, and I don't think we've seen that over this losing streak.

 

[ScrantonicityIII]

I agree. What we do want to see however, is the group playing their best basketball, and I don't think we've seen that over this losing streak.

We're a one dimensional team without the depth in talent or skills to adjust. As the competition got stronger, I don't feel that the results of our play are really that unexpected. If this recruiting class addresses some of these issues, I think next year we could see 6-8 wins.

 

[DC_Area_Panther]

I agree. What we do want to see however, is the group playing their best basketball, and I don't think we've seen that over this losing streak.

Maybe so.

But we need to remember that in any endeavor the learning curve is not smooth, it is staggered like a staircase. The freshmen have taken a step backward in part because other teams have adjusted to the way we play and taken away or at least reduced what those freshmen do best offensively. On top of that, we have had a series of injuries to an already thin team (N'Dir, then Toney and now Ellison). Also, just losing game after game to teams with better overall talent and depth is very emotionally discouraging to the players as well as to the fans. Further, we need to remember that our ACC schedule this season was and is highly unfavorable. It gave us away games against the two teams we should have had the best chance of beating (Wake and B.C.).

Many of us got overly enthused at our unexpected upsets of Louisville and Florida State at home and began to expect too much. In retrospect, IMHO, we were lucky to win those two because we caught both those teams when they were not yet playing at the higher level they are now playing at (they were playing below their talent level back then, IMO) and they had not yet adjusted game plans to counter the dribble drive threat posed by Johnson and MacGowens.

Bottom line, IMO, we are now playing at a level where we should be in the ACC given our roster and schedule; and, if it were not for the coaches keeping the team encouraged, we would be getting blown out early and often given roster limitations. Things will change dramatically, IMO, when we add the talent that will provide a strong inside game to go with our guard play. Not only will opponents be more limited in getting second chance points (while we get more of them) but our guards will have more success feeding bigs off the dribble drive and this threat will in turn yield an increased number of better looks from the outside. Hopefully we will land a couple of those bigs for next season to make it happen.

 

[DT_PITT]

Maybe so.

But we need to remember that in any endeavor the learning curve is not smooth, it is staggered like a staircase. The freshmen have taken a step backward in part because other teams have adjusted to the way we play and taken away or at least reduced what those freshmen do best offensively. On top of that, we have had a series of injuries to an already thin team (N'Dir, then Toney and now Ellison). Also, just losing game after game to teams with better overall talent and depth is very emotionally discouraging to the players as well as to the fans. Further, we need to remember that our ACC schedule this season was and is highly unfavorable. It gave us away games against the two teams we should have had the best chance of beating (Wake and B.C.).

Many of us got overly enthused at our unexpected upsets of Louisville and Florida State at home and began to expect too much. In retrospect, IMHO, we were lucky to win those two because we caught both those teams when they were not yet playing at the higher level they are now playing at (they were playing below their talent level back then, IMO) and they had not yet adjusted game plans to counter the dribble drive threat posed by Johnson and MacGowens.

Bottom line, IMO, we are now playing at a level where we should be in the ACC given our roster and schedule; and, if it were not for the coaches keeping the team encouraged, we would be getting blown out early and often given roster limitations. Things will change dramatically, IMO, when we add the talent that will provide a strong inside game to go with our guard play. Not only will opponents be more limited in getting second chance points (while we get more of them) but our guards will have more success feeding bigs off the dribble drive and this threat will in turn yield an increased number of better looks from the outside. Hopefully we will land a couple of those bigs for next season to make it happen.

I agree with the idea that the learning curve is not smooth. Actually, I agree with just about everything you say. However, I do believe we are playing at a level a little below what we are capable of. Not a great deal, but some. But even if we can't back get to that place anymore this year, I do agree that this is still all part of the process.

 

[gary2]

Maybe so.

But we need to remember that in any endeavor the learning curve is not smooth, it is staggered like a staircase. The freshmen have taken a step backward in part because other teams have adjusted to the way we play and taken away or at least reduced what those freshmen do best offensively. On top of that, we have had a series of injuries to an already thin team (N'Dir, then Toney and now Ellison). Also, just losing game after game to teams with better overall talent and depth is very emotionally discouraging to the players as well as to the fans. Further, we need to remember that our ACC schedule this season was and is highly unfavorable. It gave us away games against the two teams we should have had the best chance of beating (Wake and B.C.).

Many of us got overly enthused at our unexpected upsets of Louisville and Florida State at home and began to expect too much. In retrospect, IMHO, we were lucky to win those two because we caught both those teams when they were not yet playing at the higher level they are now playing at (they were playing below their talent level back then, IMO) and they had not yet adjusted game plans to counter the dribble drive threat posed by Johnson and MacGowens.

Bottom line, IMO, we are now playing at a level where we should be in the ACC given our roster and schedule; and, if it were not for the coaches keeping the team encouraged, we would be getting blown out early and often given roster limitations. Things will change dramatically, IMO, when we add the talent that will provide a strong inside game to go with our guard play. Not only will opponents be more limited in getting second chance points (while we get more of them) but our guards will have more success feeding bigs off the dribble drive and this threat will in turn yield an increased number of better looks from the outside. Hopefully we will land a couple of those bigs for next season to make it happen.

Excellent post - everything you included is accurate - with our talent level, I think we should have one more win - in the scheme of things that is pretty insignificant - eliminate the Louisville and FSU wins and replace them with wins over Wake, NC St and BC

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

That comment was for the whole team but if you have 5 guys trying to anticipate where a jump shot is going you are going to be in for a long season.
You don't stay on your man like a grade school box out drill but you get between him and the ball...that is what is most critical
We have been the victim of numerous stick backs because of guys just wandering around the hoop without a clue.
Been coaching for 25 years...Ball, You, Man principles

Brown's problem is that he does a well enough job of boxing out, but he doesn't find the ball and he doesn't attack the ball. When the ball comes to him he generally gets it. But when it doesn't he doesn't.

The best rebounders, guys like Clancy and Lane and Dennis Rodman, aren't great rebounders because they are good at boxing out. They are great rebounders because they figure out where the ball is most likely to go and they get there first.

 

[DT_PITT]

Brown's problem is that he does a well enough job of boxing out, but he doesn't find the ball and he doesn't attack the ball. When the ball comes to him he generally gets it. But when it doesn't he doesn't.

The best rebounders, guys like Clancy and Lane and Dennis Rodman, aren't great rebounders because they are good at boxing out. They are great rebounders because they figure out where the ball is most likely to go and they get there first.

Rodman was also incredibly quick getting off the floor.

 

[Chescat]

Brown's problem is that he does a well enough job of boxing out, but he doesn't find the ball and he doesn't attack the ball. When the ball comes to him he generally gets it. But when it doesn't he doesn't.

The best rebounders, guys like Clancy and Lane and Dennis Rodman, aren't great rebounders because they are good at boxing out. They are great rebounders because they figure out where the ball is most likely to go and they get there first.

You and Cincy are both making good points. Boxing out is important, but so is
finding the ball and getting to it. Much of being a great or good rebounder is
instinctive. Tracking the bal and sensing where it's going to come off the rim
is more instinctive. Some players are uncanny at that, some never can grasp
it. That doesn't mean that great rebounders like Lane and Clancy never box out...they do. It's just that instincts and feel trump basic boxing out.
As for the ball-you-man concept....I totally subscribe to that manner of
defense. However, that comes later, AFTER players are taught basic man
to man principles of staying between your man and the basket. Once that is
learned, playing the passing lanes, and going ball-you-man can be taught.
It then becomes more of a feel both on D and in rebounding. It requires
always seeing the ball, and having a feel where your man is. Brown by the
way is light years away from doing this.

 

[gary2]

You and Cincy are both making good points. Boxing out is important, but so is
finding the ball and getting to it. Much of being a great or good rebounder is
instinctive. Tracking the bal and sensing where it's going to come off the rim
is more instinctive. Some players are uncanny at that, some never can grasp
it. That doesn't mean that great rebounders like Lane and Clancy never box out...they do. It's just that instincts and feel trump basic boxing out.
As for the ball-you-man concept....I totally subscribe to that manner of
defense. However, that comes later, AFTER players are taught basic man
to man principles of staying between your man and the basket. Once that is
learned, playing the passing lanes, and going ball-you-man can be taught.
It then becomes more of a feel both on D and in rebounding. It requires
always seeing the ball, and having a feel where your man is. Brown by the
way is light years away from doing this.

I am starting to lean to the position that we might be better off without Brown ( if Capel will not use him as a finesse big) no matter who we replace him with.

 

[Chescat]

Well, I wouldn't give up on him yet, but you do make a good point. the problem
with him as I see it, is he hasn't had a lot of real basketball experience. He is
co ordinated and somewhat athletic. His ability to block shots is above
average. However, he has very little court awareness. On top of that he has
weak hands, and as we all know sometimes has no motor. A redshirt would
have been really helpful, even this year if we had a couple of real Bigs. He
has improved, and I'm hoping he plays behind one or two legitimate Bigs
next season. You make another good point with the "finesse Big" idea,
however we are in no position personell wise to be able to do that.

 

[pittjas]

I am starting to lean to the position that we might be better off without Brown ( if Capel will not use him as a finesse big) no matter who we replace him with.

I actually agree with this.

I think we’d be better off with a more athletic, physical big than Brown even if he’s only 6’9” or so.

Brown is just so... lackadasical at times it just doesn’t seem to fit into the rest of the team.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

You and Cincy are both making good points. Boxing out is important, but so is
finding the ball and getting to it. Much of being a great or good rebounder is
instinctive. Tracking the bal and sensing where it's going to come off the rim
is more instinctive. Some players are uncanny at that, some never can grasp
it. That doesn't mean that great rebounders like Lane and Clancy never box out...they do. It's just that instincts and feel trump basic boxing out.

This is what I am saying. I'm not arguing that you should never box out or something silly like that. I'm saying that if you want to be an elite rebounder, or heck, even an good rebounder, boxing out simply is not enough. Terrell Brown is actually pretty good at boxing out. And his rebounding percentages, while slipping lately, are still reasonably good. Because when the ball comes his way he gets it more often than not, because he has his guy boxed out. What I'm saying is that that isn't good enough. If you want to be a good rebounding team you need someone who doesn't worry as much about boxing out as he does with just getting the ball. See the shot, figure out where it's most likely to go, go there.

Great rebounders all do that. Maybe not even consciously, they just do it. Those are the guys that we talk about being good rebounding out of their area. Brown surely isn't that.

 

[Chescat]

This is what I am saying. I'm not arguing that you should never box out or something silly like that. I'm saying that if you want to be an elite rebounder, or heck, even an good rebounder, boxing out simply is not enough. Terrell Brown is actually pretty good at boxing out. And his rebounding percentages, while slipping lately, are still reasonably good. Because when the ball comes his way he gets it more often than not, because he has his guy boxed out. What I'm saying is that that isn't good enough. If you want to be a good rebounding team you need someone who doesn't worry as much about boxing out as he does with just getting the ball. See the shot, figure out where it's most likely to go, go there.

Great rebounders all do that. Maybe not even consciously, they just do it. Those are the guys that we talk about being good rebounding out of their area. Brown surely isn't that.

Basically we're saying the same thing, so we agree. I think we both see
boxing out as basic, and more importantly great rebounding as instinctive, or
what you called "not even consciously." I know that boxing out can be
taught and learned. I see it more as a rote activity. The great rebounders
do more than just box out. They're on a different level. They have a nose, or
better yet a sense or feel for the ball and go and get it.

 

[DC_Area_Panther]

Basically we're saying the same thing, so we agree. I think we both see
boxing out as basic, and more importantly great rebounding as instinctive, or
what you called "not even consciously." I know that boxing out can be
taught and learned. I see it more as a rote activity. The great rebounders
do more than just box out. They're on a different level. They have a nose, or
better yet a sense or feel for the ball and go and get it.

Boxing out has another benefit. It guards and wings effectively box out it helps your primary rebounder (your post big) from needing to contend for the rebound against multiple players instead of just his man.

 

[MajorMajors]

You guys know more about this than me, but frankly, I’m not buying the rebounding by ESP business. You rebound, it seems to me, either by being in better position (boxing out), or by out-quicking the other guys.

Brown is not a quick leaper. The guys who are quick off the floor, and can go back up quick if need be, control the most space...

My .02.

Go Pitt.

 

[Chescat]

You guys know more about this than me, but frankly, I’m not buying the rebounding by ESP business. You rebound, it seems to me, either by being in better position (boxing out), or by out-quicking the other guys.

Brown is not a quick leaper. The guys who are quick off the floor, and can go back up quick if need be, control the most space...

My .02.

Go Pitt.

ESP...that's funny, I like it. It's not all ESP as you put it. If you re read the posts,
boxing out is important, getting and maintaining position is important. Nobody is denying that. All we're saying is besides boxing out, the elite rebounders...a Clancy, a Blair, a Rodman, a Jerome Lane, etc. seem to have an instinctive sixth sense
(Brown obviously does not). These elite rebounders also can kick in a higher
gear...a kind of sixth sense or a nose for the ball so to speak. And you're right about
"going up quick for the ball." The elites also seem to do that as well.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

You guys know more about this than me, but frankly, I’m not buying the rebounding by ESP business.

It's not ESP. Actually, if you know where the shot is being taken from you can figure out where the most likely place the rebound will end up. Teams that play a 2-3 zone frequently figure out which "handed" the opponent's offense tends to be and then they put their best rebounding forward on the other side. Because shots taken from the right side tend to rebound more often to the left hand side. And vice versa. Guy who are top level rebounders combine that along with seeing if the shot is going short or long and go to where the ball is likely to end up, short shots being more likely to rebound back the way they came and long shots being likely to rebound off to the other side.

And again, I'm not saying they are standing there figuring all that out. It's more like Ches is saying, an instinct. They see the ball and the way that it was shot and they "know" where it's likely to go. So they go there.

 

[SoufOaklin4Life]

It's not ESP. Actually, if you know where the shot is being taken from you can figure out where the most likely place the rebound will end up. Teams that play a 2-3 zone frequently figure out which "handed" the opponent's offense tends to be and then they put their best rebounding forward on the other side. Because shots taken from the right side tend to rebound more often to the left hand side. And vice versa. Guy who are top level rebounders combine that along with seeing if the shot is going short or long and go to where the ball is likely to end up, short shots being more likely to rebound back the way they came and long shots being likely to rebound off to the other side.

And again, I'm not saying they are standing there figuring all that out. It's more like Ches is saying, an instinct. They see the ball and the way that it was shot and they "know" where it's likely to go. So they go there.

Plus ball rotation etc help you identify where the miss will be.

Frankly it’s not something that’s very complicated. They watch film of opponents.