Bush League

[Pitt79]

Nah, Slovis sucked. He bailed so appreciation not forthcoming...Pitt had a winning season in spite of him not because of him.. btw, not the first kid to get banged up in a game..No warm and fuzzies for portal mercenaries.

I remember watching the spring game and thinking ais that all he's got?

 

[pittdan77]

1) if people can’t see that this is bush league, they need to take the shades off

2) if this is/was his attitude toward Slovis, why did they never see what Patti could do?

Those two things weren't connected. Slovis lost the locker room. Some might say he never really tried to be a leader. That was the biggest problem. Nothing to do with talent. Patti wasn't healthy enough to start and to be fair, even though Yarnell is a great kid that bleeds Pitt colors, he wasn't going to be an improvement if both guys were down. Slovis did enough to get to the end of the season.

Other thing, Duzz does this pretty often. It's part of the psychology of what he's selling. Plays the underdog role and preaches about only wanting kids that want to be there. He's created a culture that is working for him. I will guarantee these comments played very well in the locker room and that's all he cares about.

 

[gary2]

Those two things weren't connected. Slovis lost the locker room. Some might say he never really tried to be a leader. That was the biggest problem. Nothing to do with talent. Patti wasn't healthy enough to start and to be fair, even though Yarnell is a great kid that bleeds Pitt colors, he wasn't going to be an improvement if both guys were down. Slovis did enough to get to the end of the season.

Other thing, Duzz does this pretty often. It's part of the psychology of what he's selling. Plays the underdog role and preaches about only wanting kids that want to be there. He's created a culture that is working for him. I will guarantee these comments played very well in the locker room and that's all he cares about.

Yep - After reflection, I think you are on to something here.

 

[Pitt79]

Hmmmm, yet Big Ben will be inducted into the HOF in few short years.....

He did lead them to 3 Super Bowls and WON TWO. Where you on any of those teams? INSIDE THAT locker room to confirm his lack of leadership?

 

[cashisking884]

Other thing, Duzz does this pretty often. It's part of the psychology of what he's selling. Plays the underdog role and preaches about only wanting kids that want to be there. He's created a culture that is working for him. I will guarantee these comments played very well in the locker room and that's all he cares about.

Maybe. But how many transfers actually want to be at any of the schools they transfer to?
Generally they have failed at the school they actually wanted to be at, and you take them as a kind of paid mercenary, with the trade off that they get guaranteed playing time to prove they don’t actually suck.

Which is why it’s silly to blame a senior transfer for failing to live up to *your* culture. They by definition aren’t part of your culture.

There’s a reason why a lot of coaches that come into a program and want to change the culture, run the upperclassmen. They are too tainted. You can’t reach them.

Which is why I go back to the idea: if you want the QB to be the bearer of the Pitt/Narduzzi way, stop striking out in high school recruiting. Get somebody you can mold from the beginning.

 

[pittdan77]

Maybe. But how many transfers actually want to be at any of the schools they transfer to?
Generally they have failed at the school they actually wanted to be at, and you take them as a kind of paid mercenary, with the trade off that they get guaranteed playing time to prove they don’t actually suck.

Which is why it’s silly to blame a senior transfer for failing to live up to *your* culture. They by definition aren’t part of your culture.

There’s a reason why a lot of coaches that come into a program and want to change the culture, run the upperclassmen. They are too tainted. You can’t reach them.

Which is why I go back to the idea: if you want the QB to be the bearer of the Pitt/Narduzzi way, stop striking out in high school recruiting. Get somebody you can mold from the beginning.

You haven't spent much time in a locker room at a higher level if you think that a guy can't come in and buy into the culture. Doesn't matter whether you're a green HS kid or a 6th year senior. It's expected.

And yeah, it would be awesome to always rely on your HS recruiting but it's not like it's 100% necessary. We've seen a lot of programs strike gold with transfer QB's. Why should Pitt be any different?

 

[cashisking884]

You haven't spent much time in a locker room at a higher level if you think that a guy can't come in and buy into the culture. Doesn't matter whether you're a green HS kid or a 6th year senior. It's expected.

And yeah, it would be awesome to always rely on your HS recruiting but it's not like it's 100% necessary. We've seen a lot of programs strike gold with transfer QB's. Why should Pitt be any different?

A lot is *expected.* That doesn’t mean it happens. As I said, it’s not uncommon for new coaches to clean house. That at least has to tell you that it’s not really a task that even big time coaches enjoy trying to engage in.

And what programs? OU, but that’s largely because they have gotten their pick of the transfer QBs, and so have landed the relatively few elite ones in the portal. Who are these other programs living off the transfer portal for QB, and doing it successfully? And using these guys to build their culture?

And one reason why Pitt should be different from these other alleged programs, is because Pitt has been different.

Transfer QBs under Narduzzi with a sample size at Pitt:

Peterman
Brown
Yellen
Slovis

He’s 1/4. Which honestly, is probably about the QB hit rate in the portal, due to the crop of candidates one has to work with.

If this is what you’re relying on on a yearly basis, you’re going to not have a ton of success. And when you don’t have that success, the fault is yours for having to rely on such a bad bet.

 

[gary2]

A lot is *expected.* That doesn’t mean it happens. As I said, it’s not uncommon for new coaches to clean house. That at least has to tell you that it’s not really a task that even big time coaches enjoy trying to engage in.

And what programs? OU, but that’s largely because they have gotten their pick of the transfer QBs, and so have landed the relatively few elite ones in the portal. Who are these other programs living off the transfer portal for QB, and doing it successfully? And using these guys to build their culture?

And one reason why Pitt should be different from these other alleged programs, is because Pitt has been different.

Transfer QBs under Narduzzi with a sample size at Pitt:

Peterman
Brown
Yarnell
Slovis

He’s 1/4. Which honestly, is probably about the QB hit rate in the portal, due to the crop of candidates one has to work with.

If this is what you’re relying on on a yearly basis, you’re going to not have a ton of success. And when you don’t have that success, the fault is yours for having to rely on such a bad bet.

Yarnell was not a transfer

 

[Pitt79]

Maybe. But how many transfers actually want to be at any of the schools they transfer to?
Generally they have failed at the school they actually wanted to be at, and you take them as a kind of paid mercenary, with the trade off that they get guaranteed playing time to prove they don’t actually suck.

Seems like there are just as many who were stars in the MAC or Sun Belt who want to try to jump up a level to the P5.

 

[cashisking884]

Yarnell was not a transfer

Whoops. Meant Yellen.

 

[cashisking884]

Seems like there are just as many who were stars in the MAC or Sun Belt who want to try to jump up a level to the P5.

Not really. Look at 247 transfer player rankings. It’s dominated by P5.

 

[Gunga_Galunga]

A lot is *expected.* That doesn’t mean it happens. As I said, it’s not uncommon for new coaches to clean house. That at least has to tell you that it’s not really a task that even big time coaches enjoy trying to engage in.

And what programs? OU, but that’s largely because they have gotten their pick of the transfer QBs, and so have landed the relatively few elite ones in the portal. Who are these other programs living off the transfer portal for QB, and doing it successfully? And using these guys to build their culture?

And one reason why Pitt should be different from these other alleged programs, is because Pitt has been different.

Transfer QBs under Narduzzi with a sample size at Pitt:

Peterman
Brown
Yellen
Slovis

He’s 1/4. Which honestly, is probably about the QB hit rate in the portal, due to the crop of candidates one has to work with.

If this is what you’re relying on on a yearly basis, you’re going to not have a ton of success. And when you don’t have that success, the fault is yours for having to rely on such a bad bet.

The whole new coach cleaning house and culture analogy doesn't fit this example. The Pitt example is an established culture that isn't broken, unlike a coach getting fired and complete upheaval.

I think it's hard to survive with one year transfers at QB, and if you look, the one winner of the bunch was a 2 year guy Peterman. However, there's probably 20 or more schools grabbing starting QBs out of the portal. That tells you how hard it is to recruit the position.

 

[pittdan77]

A lot is *expected.* That doesn’t mean it happens. As I said, it’s not uncommon for new coaches to clean house. That at least has to tell you that it’s not really a task that even big time coaches enjoy trying to engage in.

And what programs? OU, but that’s largely because they have gotten their pick of the transfer QBs, and so have landed the relatively few elite ones in the portal. Who are these other programs living off the transfer portal for QB, and doing it successfully? And using these guys to build their culture?

And one reason why Pitt should be different from these other alleged programs, is because Pitt has been different.

Transfer QBs under Narduzzi with a sample size at Pitt:

Peterman
Brown
Yellen
Slovis

He’s 1/4. Which honestly, is probably about the QB hit rate in the portal, due to the crop of candidates one has to work with.

If this is what you’re relying on on a yearly basis, you’re going to not have a ton of success. And when you don’t have that success, the fault is yours for having to rely on such a bad bet.

A new coach cleaning house is very different.

I also wouldn't call Slovis a complete failure despite the fact he never bought into the culture. Maybe he cost Pitt a couple of wins but the program still managed 9 wins with three different starting QB's. That's not too shabby. When blue bloods do something like that, we hear all of the reasons why it was such a gutsy season.

Slovis didn't want to be here and bailed. Duzz is just being Duzz and playing to the 100 guys that are in the program. He went and got what he saw was the best option in the portal and also landed a plan B that was good enough for the blue blood up the road.

 

[cashisking884]

The whole new coach cleaning house and culture analogy doesn't fit this example. The Pitt example is an established culture that isn't broken, unlike a coach getting fired and complete upheaval.

I think it's hard to survive with one year transfers at QB, and if you look, the one winner of the bunch was a 2 year guy Peterman. However, there's probably 20 or more schools grabbing starting QBs out of the portal. That tells you how hard it is to recruit the position.

But that wasn’t really my point with the clean house example. It was only that it’s difficult to have senior guys, who have been molded by a different culture, be the ambassador for your culture.
It was foreseeable that Slovis wouldn’t be that guy. He spent 3 years under Clay Helton. So he spent 3 years in a country club. And we’re holding it against him that he wasn’t the Rudy of the 2022 team?

Younger guys are who you mold. And then they set the standard and mold the younger guys that come after them. If you want to immerse a starting QB in your culture, and have him be the bearer of it, you really need to get him at an early age. So he can be indoctrinated in it.
Narduzzi has failed to do that. And should take responsibility for it.

And yeah, in any random year, there’s probably going to be a decent sample size of teams looking to grab a transfer QB.

The issue is when you’re looking for your 5th one in 8 years. When you a constant in that random team list.

 

[NCPitt]

But that wasn’t really my point with the clean house example. It was only that it’s difficult to have senior guys, who have been molded by a different culture, be the ambassador for your culture.
It was foreseeable that Slovis wouldn’t be that guy. He spent 3 years under Clay Helton. So he spent 3 years in a country club. And we’re holding it against him that he wasn’t the Rudy of the 2022 team?

Younger guys are who you mold. And then they set the standard and mold the younger guys that come after them. If you want to immerse a starting QB in your culture, and have him be the bearer of it, you really need to get him at an early age. So he can be indoctrinated in it.
Narduzzi has failed to do that. And should take responsibility for it.

And yeah, in any random year, there’s probably going to be a decent sample size of teams looking to grab a transfer QB.

The issue is when you’re looking for your 5th one in 8 years. When you a constant in that random team list.

How has Narduzzi failed to take responsibility for QB recruiting?

Let's be clear that QB recruiting hasn't failed because he doesn't offer good QBs and then failed to recruit them hard. But top QBs just are NOT coming to Pitt when they also have offers from the elite schools. So when the HS QB talent available is diminished he does the smart thing and dips into the transfer market.

 

[The Ole Six-Fiver]

A new coach cleaning house is very different.

I also wouldn't call Slovis a complete failure despite the fact he never bought into the culture. Maybe he cost Pitt a couple of wins but the program still managed 9 wins with three different starting QB's. That's not too shabby. When blue bloods do something like that, we hear all of the reasons why it was such a gutsy season.

Slovis didn't want to be here and bailed. Duzz is just being Duzz and playing to the 100 guys that are in the program. He went and got what he saw was the best option in the portal and also landed a plan B that was good enough for the blue blood up the road.

Pitt can’t afford to lose a couple winnable games like Slovis lost. 11 wins vs 9 wins means little to blue bloods but enormously important to a program like ours.

But it was more Duz fault for not lifting Slovis when he clearly should’ve. I can’t blame the player himself for going back out there repeatedly no matter how half hearted and indifferent he seemed after returning from injury. That’s on the coach. In such situations even Yarnell would have been better, if Patti was too hobbled at the time.

Huge opportunity lost.

 

[Gunga_Galunga]

But that wasn’t really my point with the clean house example. It was only that it’s difficult to have senior guys, who have been molded by a different culture, be the ambassador for your culture.
It was foreseeable that Slovis wouldn’t be that guy. He spent 3 years under Clay Helton. So he spent 3 years in a country club. And we’re holding it against him that he wasn’t the Rudy of the 2022 team?

Younger guys are who you mold. And then they set the standard and mold the younger guys that come after them. If you want to immerse a starting QB in your culture, and have him be the bearer of it, you really need to get him at an early age. So he can be indoctrinated in it.
Narduzzi has failed to do that. And should take responsibility for it.

And yeah, in any random year, there’s probably going to be a decent sample size of teams looking to grab a transfer QB.

The issue is when you’re looking for your 5th one in 8 years. When you a constant in that random team list.

He walked into a shit QB room with a guy who ended up 2 string at Ark St and another guy who ended up at Findlay. That was the QB room he inherited from Chryst. It was too late to get anyone decent in 2015, so we got Dinucci and he got Peterman who started 2 years.

MacVittie in 2016, Pickett 2017, Patti 2018, 2019, Yarnell 2020. Pickett played 4 years, Patti played some games and the other two were stiffs. Sprinkle in some transfers stiffs and an average Slovis.

The only years they really struggled with transfer QBs were 2017 and I guess you can say 2022. Looking back in retrospect, maybe you need to bring in more young guys and separate the wheat from the chaff.

 

[Parkview57]

INSIDE THAT locker room to confirm his lack of leadership?

Nor was i anywhere near the Pirates locker rooms in the late 70's to see Stargell's leadership, are you saying you are unable to a difference by way of teammates reactions to each. I would say then that you sir are blind to team leadership.

 

[gary2]

Nor was i anywhere near the Pirates locker rooms in the late 70's to see Stargell's leadership, are you saying you are unable to a difference by way of teammates reactions to each. I would say then that you sir are blind to team leadership.

Yep - Stargell was the leader in the clubhouse when it came to dispensing the goodies.

STARGELL AND MADLOCK ACCUSED BY BERRA (Published 1985)

www.nytimes.com

 

[Parkview57]

Yep - Stargell was the leader in the clubhouse when it came to dispensing the goodies.

The baseball drug trials /scandal in Pittsburgh as pointed out by your own articles refers to the Pirates being a strong organization in '79 (Stargell reired in '82) but by '85 the scandal had killed baseball there. Here are the players involved, please note the players not involved. John Milner implicated
Willie Mays and Stargell as supplying "speed" (my term) nothing came of it, it is presumed he didn't mention Jackie Robinson because, well he was dead for over a decade. Baseball Drug trials

 

[Pitt79]

Nor was i anywhere near the Pirates locker rooms in the late 70's to see Stargell's leadership, are you saying you are unable to a difference by way of teammates reactions to each. I would say then that you sir are blind to team leadership.

Well, he did have the 2nd best Super Bowl resume for an NFL QB after Brady this century, that's good enough leadership IMO.

 

[Buck19041]

View embedded media

Slovis delivered another winning season. Show some appreciation.

Who knows how well he might have played if we didn't get him nearly killed in the first game and a half?

QB is a reflection of the coach.

 

[NCPitt]

Pitt can’t afford to lose a couple winnable games like Slovis lost. 11 wins vs 9 wins means little to blue bloods but enormously important to a program like ours.

But it was more Duz fault for not lifting Slovis when he clearly should’ve. I can’t blame the player himself for going back out there repeatedly no matter how half hearted and indifferent he seemed after returning from injury. That’s on the coach. In such situations even Yarnell would have been better, if Patti was too hobbled at the time.

Huge opportunity lost.

There is no evidence that supports your claim that he "clearly should have" replaced Slovis with a result of 2 more wins.

That is only your opinion based on nothing.

 

[NCPitt]

QB is a reflection of the coach.

It is weird that the QB over time for any long-term coach is not a constant reflection of that coach. Was Tom Brady a reflection of Belicek? Or was Drew Bledsoe? Or Mac Jones? Or Bernie Kosar?

 

[pittdan77]

Pitt can’t afford to lose a couple winnable games like Slovis lost. 11 wins vs 9 wins means little to blue bloods but enormously important to a program like ours.

But it was more Duz fault for not lifting Slovis when he clearly should’ve. I can’t blame the player himself for going back out there repeatedly no matter how half hearted and indifferent he seemed after returning from injury. That’s on the coach. In such situations even Yarnell would have been better, if Patti was too hobbled at the time.

Huge opportunity lost.

No argument about the bad loss but there isn't any evidence that he had that option with Patti. Not even clear that was a great option but he didn't have anyone better.

You may have noticed that he made an attempt to rectify that issue this year.

 

[pittdan77]

The only years they really struggled with transfer QBs were 2017 and I guess you can say 2022. Looking back in retrospect, maybe you need to bring in more young guys and separate the wheat from the chaff.

There were obvious struggles last year but I still can't call it a failure. Nine wins isn't a failure.

 

[cashisking884]

Looking back in retrospect, maybe you need to bring in more young guys and separate the wheat from the chaff.

Which has been my only point.

Young guys are how you get players that are the embodiment of your culture and the Narduzzi way. Not senior transfers.

And the inability or refusal to recruit those guys (whichever the case for purposes of this discussion) is a Narduzzi failure, not a Slovis failure.

 

[cashisking884]

There were obvious struggles last year but I still can't call it a failure. Nine wins isn't a failure.

Is 8 regular season wins a failure?

I predicted 9 regular wins all summer. 8 was pretty close. But if you told me Miami would completely collapse before the season, I probably would have said 10 is more likely than 8.

If you’re someone that doesn’t care about bowl outcomes, win or lose, and has consistently defended Narduzzi’s bowl record for that very reason, is 8 regular season wins a disappointment?

I still don’t think so.

 

[The Ole Six-Fiver]

No argument about the bad loss but there isn't any evidence that he had that option with Patti. Not even clear that was a great option but he didn't have anyone better.

You may have noticed that he made an attempt to rectify that issue this year.

I did, and I’m glad he recognizes the need

 

[Pitt79]

Is 8 regular season wins a failure?

I predicted 9 regular wins all summer. 8 was pretty close. But if you told me Miami would completely collapse before the season, I probably would have said 10 is more likely than 8.

If you’re someone that doesn’t care about bowl outcomes, win or lose, and has consistently defended Narduzzi’s bowl record for that very reason, is 8 regular season wins a disappointment?

I still don’t think so.

ALL WINS ARE EQUAL, if you go 9-4 because you beat YSU, Akron, Vanderbilt and Tulsa in a bowl game it's as good as being 9-4 with a really hard schedule, because by the start of the next season, nobody remembers anything about it but THE NINE.

 

[pittdan77]

Is 8 regular season wins a failure?

I predicted 9 regular wins all summer. 8 was pretty close. But if you told me Miami would completely collapse before the season, I probably would have said 10 is more likely than 8.

If you’re someone that doesn’t care about bowl outcomes, win or lose, and has consistently defended Narduzzi’s bowl record for that very reason, is 8 regular season wins a disappointment?

I still don’t think so.

That's probably adjusting the goal posts a little. Was a top 25 season for a program that hasn't had many. Not sure what the expectations are supposed to be for a program you think can't recruit and is relying on the poral too much.

 

[pittmeister]

QB is a reflection of the coach.

Same goes for 2021, right????

SCRAM!

 

[JohnnyGossamer]

Where have you seen that Nick ever planned to come back for his “Covid” year in 2023?

Oh, I'm sure when Pitt quickly grabbed Jurk and Veilleux it was obvious that the HC, OC, QBC, etc. did not think he was the answer. Pretty one or both were committed before the Sun Bowl. I imagine if he was extremely likely to be the starting QB, he'd be back or at least mulled it over long and hard.

 

[303vND]

Narduzzi comes off as a scorned little school girl way too often for a person in a position of leadership and mentoring young men. Leave the quips to the pundits - and stop the backhanded whining.

 

[cashisking884]

ALL WINS ARE EQUAL, if you go 9-4 because you beat YSU, Akron, Vanderbilt and Tulsa in a bowl game it's as good as being 9-4 with a really hard schedule, because by the start of the next season, nobody remembers anything about it but THE NINE.

I think that’s a fine perspective to have. It’s just not mine.

 

[4Mark_Marty]

Maybe. But how many transfers actually want to be at any of the schools they transfer to?
Generally they have failed at the school they actually wanted to be at, and you take them as a kind of paid mercenary, with the trade off that they get guaranteed playing time to prove they don’t actually suck.

Which is why it’s silly to blame a senior transfer for failing to live up to *your* culture. They by definition aren’t part of your culture.

There’s a reason why a lot of coaches that come into a program and want to change the culture, run the upperclassmen. They are too tainted. You can’t reach them.

Which is why I go back to the idea: if you want the QB to be the bearer of the Pitt/Narduzzi way, stop striking out in high school recruiting. Get somebody you can mold from the beginning.

Just look at the Pitt basketball team. Cummings, Hinson, Federico, Elliott all came here last year and bought in to the culture that was established by Capel, Burton and Sibande.

 

[Parkview57]

Well, he did have the 2nd best Super Bowl resume for an NFL QB after Brady this century, that's good enough leadership IMO.

I can't argue with that.