Chamberlain and Russell

[Pitt5593]

The question is often asked if guys who played in the 1960s and 1970s could compete today. I saw both Chamberlain and Russell play in their prime. These guys were both great defensive players Who would be absolute stalwarts in today’s game. In their time, the game consisted of a lot more outside shooting and a lot of fast breaks.

In today’s game, everyone drives to the hoop. Chamberlain was so big and so quick, even by today’s standards, our current stars would have a lot of their shots swatted back at them. Russell, though not as big but A step quicker, would be just as tough on the defensive end. Both were great rebounders. Chamberlain average 22 boards a game for his entire career. Think about that. Guys today getting 13 to 14 boards a game are superstars. Granted, Chamberlain would not average 22 but 18 to 20 wouldn’t be too bad.

Offensively, Russell did not do too much. His big contribution here was his quick outlet passes.
Chamberlain on the other hand had a lot of answers. Fadeaway jumpshot from 15 feet. Finger roll. And a great great passer. One year he led the league in assists with over eight points a game. Add in the fact that one year he averaged 50 points a game is quite impressive. In addition, he was as strong As anyone in the game today.

Just some additional facts. Russell won 10 titles. Chamberlain average 46 minutes a game for his entire career. Last stat on these two. Chamberlain never fouled out of his game his entire career. And again, 46 minutes a game.

Kareem was an entirely different player. He wasn’t nearly as good on the defensive End but that skyhook was the greatest shot in the history of basketball

 

[MarshallGoldberg]

I feel like we have at least some sense of how Wilt would do today: Young Shaq before he gained weight.

I agree with Stan Van Gundy that you take Kareem over Shaq or Wilt though because you don't have to pull him in the last five minutes to avoid missed foul shots/hack a shaq tactics.

Russell is hardest to project and out of respect for him as the best all time winner, I'll leave it at that.

 

[bayardstreet]

Wilt still holds the record for sleeping with the most women

 

[Saboteur]

The question is often asked if guys who played in the 1960s and 1970s could compete today. I saw both Chamberlain and Russell play in their prime. These guys were both great defensive players Who would be absolute stalwarts in today’s game. In their time, the game consisted of a lot more outside shooting and a lot of fast breaks.

In today’s game, everyone drives to the hoop. Chamberlain was so big and so quick, even by today’s standards, our current stars would have a lot of their shots swatted back at them. Russell, though not as big but A step quicker, would be just as tough on the defensive end. Both were great rebounders. Chamberlain average 22 boards a game for his entire career. Think about that. Guys today getting 13 to 14 boards a game are superstars. Granted, Chamberlain would not average 22 but 18 to 20 wouldn’t be too bad.

Offensively, Russell did not do too much. His big contribution here was his quick outlet passes.
Chamberlain on the other hand had a lot of answers. Fadeaway jumpshot from 15 feet. Finger roll. And a great great passer. One year he led the league in assists with over eight points a game. Add in the fact that one year he averaged 50 points a game is quite impressive. In addition, he was as strong As anyone in the game today.

Just some additional facts. Russell won 10 titles. Chamberlain average 46 minutes a game for his entire career. Last stat on these two. Chamberlain never fouled out of his game his entire career. And again, 46 minutes a game.

Kareem was an entirely different player. He wasn’t nearly as good on the defensive End but that skyhook was the greatest shot in the history of basketball

My brother schooled me. Russell first and always.
As for Wilt, he was underrated IMO. No one roots for Goliath.
I loved Kareem and his sky hook.

 

[Saboteur]

Wilt still holds the record for sleeping with the most women

I don't think he did much sleeping.

 

[BargeDog]

In my lifetime...

Russell was the best pro center ...so smart, great on D, great passer and rebounder...a perfect fit on the Celtics, made their fast break, and he won--a lot.

Wilt was an amazing athlete and great player. But that fade-away jumper was like he was trying to prove he didn't have to overpower you to be great. He didn't make his teams better like Russell and his foul shooting was an abyss.

Walton was the best college center.

Kareem is second in both categories

Finally, Rick Barry is the most underrated. Not a great personality But what a great passer...and scorer. If only Wilt had taken his advice and stuck with the underhand foul shoot.

 

[oldpantherfan]

Wilt was the best period.
Out played kareem in Lakers vs bucks games.
Would be a monster in today's game with no D.

 

[oldpantherfan]

And please stop comparing hall of farmers who are two of the greatest to play the game to today's players as there is none.

 

[MarshallGoldberg]

Wilt was the best period.
Out played kareem in Lakers vs bucks games.
Would be a monster in today's game with no D.

When Kareem was a first and second year player. Yeah maybe Wilt gets an edge in those match-ups, I only ever watched one on YouTube, the Bucks broke the Lakers 32 game win streak in it, not much film exists from then. Anyway, their primes didn't overlap though, who knows how 66-67 Wilt does against 79-80 Kareem. But all-time I'd take Kareem became you get a steady leader who gives you 20 high level seasons and who you couldn't use hack-a-Wilt tactics against.

 

[Coachkirsch]

I loved all these centers. Russell was on better teams than the.others mostly Kareem was certainly great but no one and I include all the others mentioned as well as every other NBA player in the period could excite the audiences like Wilt. The best center that ever played the game. Wilt the stilt. He was by far the most exciting player of his era. no doubt!!!

 

[below0w]

Wilt still holds the record for sleeping with the most women

Shawn Kemp would have disputed that record a long time ago, but he's been too busy trying to figure out how many kids he has.

 

[wbrpanther]

The question is often asked if guys who played in the 1960s and 1970s could compete today. I saw both Chamberlain and Russell play in their prime. These guys were both great defensive players Who would be absolute stalwarts in today’s game. In their time, the game consisted of a lot more outside shooting and a lot of fast breaks.

In today’s game, everyone drives to the hoop. Chamberlain was so big and so quick, even by today’s standards, our current stars would have a lot of their shots swatted back at them. Russell, though not as big but A step quicker, would be just as tough on the defensive end. Both were great rebounders. Chamberlain average 22 boards a game for his entire career. Think about that. Guys today getting 13 to 14 boards a game are superstars. Granted, Chamberlain would not average 22 but 18 to 20 wouldn’t be too bad.

Offensively, Russell did not do too much. His big contribution here was his quick outlet passes.
Chamberlain on the other hand had a lot of answers. Fadeaway jumpshot from 15 feet. Finger roll. And a great great passer. One year he led the league in assists with over eight points a game. Add in the fact that one year he averaged 50 points a game is quite impressive. In addition, he was as strong As anyone in the game today.

Just some additional facts. Russell won 10 titles. Chamberlain average 46 minutes a game for his entire career. Last stat on these two. Chamberlain never fouled out of his game his entire career. And again, 46 minutes a game.

Kareem was an entirely different player. He wasn’t nearly as good on the defensive End but that skyhook was the greatest shot in the history of basketball

Wilt and Russell could have dominated today, tomorrow or next decade. People underestimate what a fantastic athlete Wilt was.

 

[NTOP]

The question is often asked if guys who played in the 1960s and 1970s could compete today. I saw both Chamberlain and Russell play in their prime. These guys were both great defensive players Who would be absolute stalwarts in today’s game. In their time, the game consisted of a lot more outside shooting and a lot of fast breaks.

In today’s game, everyone drives to the hoop. Chamberlain was so big and so quick, even by today’s standards, our current stars would have a lot of their shots swatted back at them. Russell, though not as big but A step quicker, would be just as tough on the defensive end. Both were great rebounders. Chamberlain average 22 boards a game for his entire career. Think about that. Guys today getting 13 to 14 boards a game are superstars. Granted, Chamberlain would not average 22 but 18 to 20 wouldn’t be too bad.

Offensively, Russell did not do too much. His big contribution here was his quick outlet passes.
Chamberlain on the other hand had a lot of answers. Fadeaway jumpshot from 15 feet. Finger roll. And a great great passer. One year he led the league in assists with over eight points a game. Add in the fact that one year he averaged 50 points a game is quite impressive. In addition, he was as strong As anyone in the game today.

Just some additional facts. Russell won 10 titles. Chamberlain average 46 minutes a game for his entire career. Last stat on these two. Chamberlain never fouled out of his game his entire career. And again, 46 minutes a game.

Kareem was an entirely different player. He wasn’t nearly as good on the defensive End but that skyhook was the greatest shot in the history of basketball

I liked Ramon's gamewinner better.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Wilt and Russell could have dominated today, tomorrow or next decade. People underestimate what a fantastic athlete Wilt was.

Exactly. They are transcendent talents. It is like saying "would Willie Mays and Mickey Mantle be good in today's MLB". Of course they would. They would be great then, now, next week, next year, next decade.....

 

[JS School]

Russell is the greatest winner in the history of team sports. He was something like 24-0 in championship games where you either won or went home (NBA game 7s, NCAA championship finals, Olympic gold medal game).

Nevertheless, Wilt was the most dominant individual athlete I ever saw. I can't imagine Jordan or Lebron averaging 50.4 pts per game for an entire season. Or 27.2 rebounds. Maybe not even 8.6 assists.

 

[TempleBAPittMPA]

Finally, Rick Barry is the most underrated. Not a great personality But what a great passer...and scorer. If only Wilt had taken his advice and stuck with the underhand foul shoot.

The most amazing thing about Chamberlain was his 100 point game. Not the 100 points in and of itself, but the fact that one of the worst free throw shooters in the history of mankind . . . went 28 for 32 from the line that night.

 

[wbrpanther]

Russell is the greatest winner in the history of team sports. He was something like 24-0 in championship games where you either won or went home (NBA game 7s, NCAA championship finals, Olympic gold medal game).

Nevertheless, Wilt was the most dominant individual athlete I ever saw. I can't imagine Jordan or Lebron averaging 50.4 pts per game for an entire season. Or 27.2 rebounds. Maybe not even 8.6 assists.

Russel was a great player, especially defensively. But he would have been remembered as a great player only had he been drafted by the St. Louis Hawks or the Rochester Royals.

 

[DC_Area_Panther]

Russel was a great player, especially defensively. But he would have been remembered as a great player only had he been drafted by the St. Louis Hawks or the Rochester Royals.

Russel was 6-9 but had extra long arms so probably had the reach of a 6-11 or 7-0 guy.

 

[Black_Man_Panther]

There's some great interview videos on YT w/ Wilt talking about his relationship w/ Russell. Apparently, they only buried the hatchet later in life - near the end of Wilt's life. Kareem also has stated that Wilt is the greatest player he ever faced. And... as w/ everything in life, agrees that Wilt never got his due because of... yup... his politics. Go figure.

 

[BFo8]

Shawn Kemp would have disputed that record a long time ago, but he's been too busy trying to figure out how many kids he has.

Evander Holyfield wants in on this as well.

 

[BFo8]

Wilt, Kareem, and Shaq for me. Russell was great but not like the aforementioned 3, as someone else posted had he not played for the Celtics he would not have had nearly the same impact.

 

[CJsE]

Exactly. They are transcendent talents. It is like saying "would Willie Mays and Mickey Mantle be good in today's MLB". Of course they would. They would be great then, now, next week, next year, next decade.....

I think it's the same with any of these questions. If you just took the players and transported them as they were to current times, then they wouldn't be anywhere near as good as they were. But if they grew up in modern systems then yeah they'd probably still become all-time greats.

Wilt would be a bigger Dwight Howard with a better shot. It's not hard to imagine he'd be winning some All-NBAs, Defensive Player of the Year awards, and MVPs.

Mays and Mantle probably didn't have many pitchers throwing in the 90s. Meanwhile more than 100 pitchers in the league average 90mph per pitch and hundreds average in the 90s on their fastballs. Hell, there are 25-30 pitchers per year that crack the 100mph mark now.

 

[wbrpanther]

I think it's the same with any of these questions. If you just took the players and transported them as they were to current times, then they wouldn't be anywhere near as good as they were. But if they grew up in modern systems then yeah they'd probably still become all-time greats.

Wilt would be a bigger Dwight Howard with a better shot. It's not hard to imagine he'd be winning some All-NBAs, Defensive Player of the Year awards, and MVPs.

Mays and Mantle probably didn't have many pitchers throwing in the 90s. Meanwhile more than 100 pitchers in the league average 90mph per pitch and hundreds average in the 90s on their fastballs. Hell, there are 25-30 pitchers per year that crack the 100mph mark now.

There were plenty of pitchers throwing in the 90s back then. The big difference is the development of the slider. Transport Mantle and Mays to present times and they would still be at the top.

 

[BigZeke]

I feel like we have at least some sense of how Wilt would do today: Young Shaq before he gained weight.

I agree with Stan Van Gundy that you take Kareem over Shaq or Wilt though because you don't have to pull him in the last five minutes to avoid missed foul shots/hack a shaq tactics.

Russell is hardest to project and out of respect for him as the best all time winner, I'll leave it at that.

Wilt is arguably the greatest athlete of the 20th century and is the 1st team Center on any All-NBA team hands down. It’s not even close.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

There were plenty of pitchers throwing in the 90s back then.

There really weren't. I can remember back in the early 80s that the Pirates had some reliever who had a fastball regularly in the 90s and the announcers making a big deal about it, because he was the only guy on the team that was like that.

There were plenty of guys then who topped out in the low 90s, 90, 91, maybe 92 on a good day. But those guys didn't throw that hard regularly. Now if a guy doesn't have a fastball that sits in the 90s most teams wouldn't even consider him, because unless that guy has great control he is going to get hammered.

 

[JS School]

There really weren't. I can remember back in the early 80s that the Pirates had some reliever who had a fastball regularly in the 90s and the announcers making a big deal about it, because he was the only guy on the team that was like that.

There were plenty of guys then who topped out in the low 90s, 90, 91, maybe 92 on a good day. But those guys didn't throw that hard regularly. Now if a guy doesn't have a fastball that sits in the 90s most teams wouldn't even consider him, because unless that guy has great control he is going to get hammered.

I remember a magazine article from about 20 years ago saying that 94 mph was about the top speed that a batter had a reasonable chance of hitting against. The author said that if pitchers ever started throwing over 95 mph they would be practically unhittable.

 

[JS School]

Russel was a great player, especially defensively. But he would have been remembered as a great player only had he been drafted by the St. Louis Hawks or the Rochester Royals.

I said nothing about Russell's greatness as a player, I said he was the greatest winner in team sports. 2 NCAA championships, 1 Olympic gold medal (not exactly Dream Team caliber teammates) , 11 NBA championships in a 13 year career.

What would he have been if he was drafted by the Hawks or Royals? I have no idea. Just like I have no idea what Brady would have been if he were drafted by the Browns or Lions.

 

[CJsE]

There really weren't. I can remember back in the early 80s that the Pirates had some reliever who had a fastball regularly in the 90s and the announcers making a big deal about it, because he was the only guy on the team that was like that.

There were plenty of guys then who topped out in the low 90s, 90, 91, maybe 92 on a good day. But those guys didn't throw that hard regularly. Now if a guy doesn't have a fastball that sits in the 90s most teams wouldn't even consider him, because unless that guy has great control he is going to get hammered.

The average fastball has increased close to 4mph in just the last 20 years. In 2000 it was around 88 mph and now sits at almost 93 mph. It's very, very unlikely that the average pitcher in the 1960s was throwing anything close to 90.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

The average fastball has increased close to 4mph in just the last 20 years. In 2000 it was around 88 mph and now sits at almost 93 mph. It's very, very unlikely that the average pitcher in the 1960s was throwing anything close to 90.

Part of that is that pitchers pitched differently back then. If you are a starting pitcher now you know that the team is only expecting you to throw five or six, maybe seven innings on a good day. So you can throw all out a lot more often than a guy who was still expected to have something in the tank in the 9th inning after having thrown 140 pitches. Most guys today couldn't throw 140 pitches and still be anywhere close to the mid-90s, just like most guys 50 years ago couldn't do that.

And relievers are the same way. Those top guys today know they aren't ever going to be in the game for two or three innings. They are going to throw one inning today, and then maybe another tomorrow, or maybe not again for two or three days. And they know what JS alluded to above, that a fastball at 100 mph that has movement is nearly impossible for someone to hit. As we see with some of the very best relievers. When they are on guys have a hard time making any contact at all against them, let alone hard contact. It becomes a lot more of a guessing game for the hitter, and the pitcher usually wins when the hitter has to guess.

 

[CJsE]

Part of that is that pitchers pitched differently back then. If you are a starting pitcher now you know that the team is only expecting you to throw five or six, maybe seven innings on a good day. So you can throw all out a lot more often than a guy who was still expected to have something in the tank in the 9th inning after having thrown 140 pitches. Most guys today couldn't throw 140 pitches and still be anywhere close to the mid-90s, just like most guys 50 years ago couldn't do that.

And relievers are the same way. Those top guys today know they aren't ever going to be in the game for two or three innings. They are going to throw one inning today, and then maybe another tomorrow, or maybe not again for two or three days. And they know what JS alluded to above, that a fastball at 100 mph that has movement is nearly impossible for someone to hit. As we see with some of the very best relievers. When they are on guys have a hard time making any contact at all against them, let alone hard contact. It becomes a lot more of a guessing game for the hitter, and the pitcher usually wins when the hitter has to guess.

Oh yeah, I understand completely. I wasn't trying to minimize the abilities of players 40+ years ago, I was just trying to point out that it is a very different game today. Pitchers are much bigger and stronger, they train year-round, throw much faster and break down much quicker. 8% of all pitches thrown per season are over 95 mph now.

That's why I say that I think legends of the past could very well be legends today if they were raised in contemporary times. But there is no way that a 1956 Mickey Mantle hits 52 home runs against a 2019 schedule. He'd have 300 strikeouts.

 

[Coachkirsch]

It wouldn't have mattered which team Wilt or Kareem played for; they were to 2 best centers of all time; and there will never be another Wilt Chamberlain period!

 

[wbrpanther]

I said nothing about Russell's greatness as a player, I said he was the greatest winner in team sports. 2 NCAA championships, 1 Olympic gold medal (not exactly Dream Team caliber teammates) , 11 NBA championships in a 13 year career.

What would he have been if he was drafted by the Hawks or Royals? I have no idea. Just like I have no idea what Brady would have been if he were drafted by the Browns or Lions.

I wasn’t arguing with you in the first place.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Nolan Ryan regularly tipped the upper 90's. JR Richard was a beast and could hit 100.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

Nolan Ryan regularly tipped the upper 90's. JR Richard was a beast and could hit 100.

Right, but those are the exceptions that prove the rule. What Ryan and Richards were doing was mostly unheard of at their time. Ryan's fastball was such that no one at the time had seen anything like it. If he was pitching like that today he'd be one of several dozen guys throwing that hard.

 

[ameoba defense]

Wilt, and Kareem would be monsters in any era. Keep in mind that there aren't a ton of really big guys in the league right now. Russell would be a very good player today, especially if he was on a team that knew how to use him. Ben Wallace was a guy that did some of the things Russell did, and he was very effective, despite not being the athlete Russell was. I think most of the elite players from the mid 60s on could play today, although some of them would no longer be elite. Even a guy like George Mikan could probably find a spot as a reserve, especially if he actually came up today. He'd be nowhere near the force that he was 70 years ago though. Baseball is indeed interesting because of the specialization that has crept into the game. As was pointed out, pitchers used to have to pace themselves because they were expected to go 8-9 innings, and do it every fourth day. Guys today just go all out until they hit the wall. Also, and this is a factor in all of the sports, the money eliminates the need to work offseason, and affords players the ability to train, and work on their game year around. Players are filmed, and then broken down to point out their flaws, which hopefully can be fixed. Think about Steve Blass. Today, they would put his delivery into a comptuer, and break down every single move he made, before, and after his troubles began. Might not help, but these are the types of things that are available today. The 70s Steelers wouldn't be very good today, neither would the 80s 49ers. Even the 90s Cowboys might struggle, although various players on those teams would still excel today.

 

[TheSpecialSauce]

Wilt vs Shaq would be a fun hypothetical matchup based on size and strength.

 

[So Much to Say]

Right, but those are the exceptions that prove the rule. What Ryan and Richards were doing was mostly unheard of at their time. Ryan's fastball was such that no one at the time had seen anything like it. If he was pitching like that today he'd be one of several dozen guys throwing that hard.

I had the pleasure of spending time with a retired MLB pitcher. He told me the the reason for the increase in velocity over the past 20 years was primarily due to the knowledge gained through biomechanics. How pitchers generate velocity is understood in a level of detail that just wasn't available until people started studying the science of biomechanics. Modern pitchers all have virtually perfect motions. Additionally, by having this greater understanding of the proper motion, training has gotten more specific and therefore better. What needs to be stronger and where flexibility is needed has created much better trading regimes and ultimately more efficient athletes

Maybe this seems obvious but if felt insightful to me!

 

[9nationalchampionships]

Spill the wine dig that girl

Wilt still holds the record for sleeping with the most women

 

[New York Panther]

Russell is hardest to project and out of respect for him as the best all time winner, I'll leave it at that.

My recollection of those times is that, in spite of Wilt's gaudy stats, Russell usually got the best of him when it really counted.

 

[DC_Area_Panther]

There really weren't. I can remember back in the early 80s that the Pirates had some reliever who had a fastball regularly in the 90s and the announcers making a big deal about it, because he was the only guy on the team that was like that.

There were plenty of guys then who topped out in the low 90s, 90, 91, maybe 92 on a good day. But those guys didn't throw that hard regularly. Now if a guy doesn't have a fastball that sits in the 90s most teams wouldn't even consider him, because unless that guy has great control he is going to get hammered.

Way way back (1957-1961) the Yankees had a reliever named Ryne Duren (Sp.?). Was he or maybe, Bob Feller (Sp.?) the first to be radar clocked at 100+ MPH?

When Duren came on in relief it was great "theater." He reportedly threw at 100-102/103 mph, wore thick coke bottle lens glasses which he was constantly cleaning and he would deliberately threw an occasional wild pitch passing well behind the batter to the screen. The idea was to psych the batters into being antsy that they could be hit by a 100 mph fastball and disrupt their timing. He would then fire those 100 mph pitches right by them to strike them out. It was a fun to watch the "theatrical" performance.