Clemson wins on an OT PK. Question on that

[Sean Miller Fan]

I watched the end of the 2nd Half and the OT. Clemson won on a PK and though I was rooting for them over Providence, I hated to see it end that way. What's the rule on this? I thought if you made contact with the ball, a Penalty couldn't be called.

The Clemson player was in the 18 yard box dribbling towards the goal when a PC player slide-tackled him getting a piece of the ball first (a small piece of it I should mention) then trips the Clemson player in the same motion. I thought as long as you get the ball, you're good.

BTW, this Georgetown team is for real. They beat Louisville 5-1. They are the best team I've seen this season. Pitt was competitive with UVa, Clemson, and Wake. Gtown made them look like a JV team. Tough draw.

 

[Fk_Pitt]

I thought as long as you get the ball, you're good.

That’s the biggest misconception in soccer. Just because a player gets ball first, it doesn’t absolve the perpetrator. It’s a judgement call by the ref...and if he deems it careless or reckless or excessive force, then it’s a penalty. But...if the attacking offensive player trips over the foot of a player who got ball first, it shouldn’t be a penalty unless the defender raises his foot in an attempt to trip him.

Hope that makes sense.

 

[anon_d97v9o3a8b6xr]

That’s the biggest misconception in soccer. Just because a player gets ball first, it doesn’t absolve the perpetrator. It’s a judgement call by the ref...and if he deems it careless or reckless or excessive force, then it’s a penalty. But...if the attacking offensive player trips over the foot of a player who got ball first, it shouldn’t be a penalty unless the defender raises his foot in an attempt to trip him.

Hope that makes sense.

What he said.
I would have to see if the defender brought studs in a bit exposed, and if the leg came upwards after contact with the ball. I'm guessing there was a bit of a leg raise.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

I didn't see the play in question, but the other thing is that at this point if you slide tackle someone from behind you are going to get called for a foul almost every time, whether you touch the ball or not, because that is now considered a dangerous play.

 

[anon_d97v9o3a8b6xr]

I didn't see the play in question, but the other thing is that at this point if you slide tackle someone from behind you are going to get called for a foul almost every time, whether you touch the ball or not, because that is now considered a dangerous play.

Someone needs to post the foul. Most tackles can be cut and dry, but refs get a little unsure in the box, but my biggest issue, it’s the damn handball calls or missed calIs. I swear refs don’t know what to do with handballs. Call it, not call it, deliberate, natural movement etc etc.
My daughters team had a shot off the corner kick, ball hits kids arm and completely changes direction of the ball from on net to down to the defenders feet. No call. The arm completely affected the shot.

Can college use VAR for fouls? EPL does.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

Can college use VAR for fouls? EPL does.

I think the only thing that college uses replay for is if the ball crossed the goal line or not, and for disciplinary matters like if there was a fight or if someone threw a punch or stuff like that. They cannot review foul calls or handballs or things like that.

 

[Fk_Pitt]

Someone needs to post the foul. Most tackles can be cut and dry, but refs get a little unsure in the box, but my biggest issue, it’s the damn handball calls or missed calIs. I swear refs don’t know what to do with handballs. Call it, not call it, deliberate, natural movement etc etc.
My daughters team had a shot off the corner kick, ball hits kids arm and completely changes direction of the ball from on net to down to the defenders feet. No call. The arm completely affected the shot.

Can college use VAR for fouls? EPL does.

I’ll add to that. They get really unsure in the box when it’s in overtime. We had an overtime game this year in which our player was about to tap the ball into an open net from inside the 6 yard box for the sudden death win with the goalkeeper laying on the ground 5 yards out of the play. The defender for the other team then steamrolled her from behind just as she was about to put the ball in like a strong safety on a defenseless receiver. Our girl was knocked flat like she had been shot. Never in the history of soccer have I seen such a thing. When there was no whistle, of course everyone was yelling for one, and the ref yelled “not there, not now”. The other team scored a minute later, won the game, and went on to win the section. The coach of the other team texted me after the game acknowledging the mistake. How could anyone not acknowledge it?? I showed the video highlight to every HS ref and college ref I have seen since then...and watching the facial reactions of every single one of them as the play happened was priceless. Not one person didn’t see what everyone else saw...except the one person with the whistle who initially saw it and refused to do anything because it was overtime and in the box.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

Any ref who sees an obvious foul in the box and says "not there, not now" shouldn't be allowed to officiate games anymore. Anyone can make a call in the center circle two minutes into the game. If you can't or won't make a call with the game on the line then why are you out there?

 

[anon_d97v9o3a8b6xr]

I’ll add to that. They get really unsure in the box when it’s in overtime. We had an overtime game this year in which our player was about to tap the ball into an open net from inside the 6 yard box for the sudden death win with the goalkeeper laying on the ground 5 yards out of the play. The defender for the other team then steamrolled her from behind just as she was about to put the ball in like a strong safety on a defenseless receiver. Our girl was knocked flat like she had been shot. Never in the history of soccer have I seen such a thing. When there was no whistle, of course everyone was yelling for one, and the ref yelled “not there, not now”. The other team scored a minute later, won the game, and went on to win the section. The coach of the other team texted me after the game acknowledging the mistake. How could anyone not acknowledge it?? I showed the video highlight to every HS ref and college ref I have seen since then...and watching the facial reactions of every single one of them as the play happened was priceless. Not one person didn’t see what everyone else saw...except the one person with the whistle who initially saw it and refused to do anything because it was overtime and in the box.

We were playing up in Buffalo last year, and our goalie came out to challenge a breakaway. Our center back recovered and was about to clear the ball. The Buffalo girl just plowed over our defender, no joke, our defender was pushed into the goal from the 6, and hit the back of the net before the ball did. Not a single call. Sometimes, I just wonder what the heck these refs are seeing. The inconsistency of calls is mind boggling.

 

[Fk_Pitt]

We were playing up in Buffalo last year, and our goalie came out to challenge a breakaway. Our center back recovered and was about to clear the ball. The Buffalo girl just plowed over our defender, no joke, our defender was pushed into the goal from the 6, and hit the back of the net before the ball did. Not a single call. Sometimes, I just wonder what the heck these refs are seeing. The inconsistency of calls is mind boggling.

It is mind boggling. Often they are there for the paycheck and that’s it. We find officiating is normally much better when we travel. Western PA High school reffing, particularly hs is horrible. There’s a shortage of refs because the state of PA uses a “3 whistle system” that I won’t discuss here but it leads to many problems. But essentially the refs here are the same ones doing football, lacrosse, etc., and they don’t know the rules.

 

[PeetWeet1]

It is mind boggling. Often they are there for the paycheck and that’s it. We find officiating is normally much better when we travel. Western PA High school reffing, particularly hs is horrible. There’s a shortage of refs because the state of PA uses a “3 whistle system” that I won’t discuss here but it leads to many problems. But essentially the refs here are the same ones doing football, lacrosse, etc., and they don’t know the rules.

For sure. From my limited parental experience, the worst offenders aren’t coaches, players, or parents. They are the Refs! Way too many are small minded, easily offended babies.

The ones that did the best for little kids - older siblings. The Catholic schools have general population coed teams in elementary school. They get PIAA refs who often suck for the 5-6 or 7-8 grade games. The 2-4 graders get 8th grade older siblings eating service hours. It is obvious the 8th graders care. They are setting good examples for their younger siblings. And - get this - they know the game.

And yes, the multiple ref systems are atrocious. For bb, it is hilarious. One will call old-school Big East and the other will call a foul of a player is almost touched.

Before anyone says these games don’t matter — bs. They do. The results don’t, but the kids are getting the chance to compete and learn a game. God awful officiating makes this effort a lot more difficult.

 

[TheSpecialSauce]

For sure. From my limited parental experience, the worst offenders aren’t coaches, players, or parents. They are the Refs! Way too many are small minded, easily offended babies.

The ones that did the best for little kids - older siblings. The Catholic schools have general population coed teams in elementary school. They get PIAA refs who often suck for the 5-6 or 7-8 grade games. The 2-4 graders get 8th grade older siblings eating service hours. It is obvious the 8th graders care. They are setting good examples for their younger siblings. And - get this - they know the game.

And yes, the multiple ref systems are atrocious. For bb, it is hilarious. One will call old-school Big East and the other will call a foul of a player is almost touched.

Before anyone says these games don’t matter — bs. They do. The results don’t, but the kids are getting the chance to compete and learn a game. God awful officiating makes this effort a lot more difficult.

How would you solve the problem?

IMO - If you want better adult officials, then you need to pay more $ and provide them better training.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

There’s a shortage of refs because the state of PA uses a “3 whistle system” that I won’t discuss here but it leads to many problems.

I have never been able to figure out just what it is that they think the advantage of doing that is.

 

[Fk_Pitt]

I have never been able to figure out just what it is that they think the advantage of doing that is.

It’s the brainchild of Robert Lombardi who is the Executive Director of the PIAA. It’s his system. He invented it. His position is that three whistles keeps the players safer. Therefore he has dug in his heels while under immense pressure every year from coaches. He says it’s a superior system, even though the rest of the world disagrees. It’s come under review a couple times over the past 12 months. But I think he will die or retire before the change happens.

 

[Fk_Pitt]

Any ref who sees an obvious foul in the box and says "not there, not now" shouldn't be allowed to officiate games anymore. Anyone can make a call in the center circle two minutes into the game. If you can't or won't make a call with the game on the line then why are you out there?

This is true. And I told him after the game as he was running to the car that I’m sending the film to the WPIAL. He said “go ahead”. He and I both know that WPIAL can’t hold these guys accountable because they already don’t have enough refs.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

This is true. And I told him after the game as he was running to the car that I’m sending the film to the WPIAL. He said “go ahead”. He and I both know that WPIAL can’t hold these guys accountable because they already don’t have enough refs.

And that's why you shouldn't argue or complain about HS officiating. Its a hobby for these guys, they make peanuts doing it and nobody wants that job.

 

[Fk_Pitt]

And that's why you shouldn't argue or complain about HS officiating. Its a hobby for these guys, they make peanuts doing it and nobody wants that job.

That’s where you’re wrong. As stated above, they impact a lot of lives. The decisions they make individually sends ripples through the entire district and state.

They can have bad games. They make mistakes just like players do and just like coaches do. I respect them all. I treat them all well. Probably too well because I think sometimes the squeaky wheel get the grease. But that’s not me and not my style.

The problem I have is when they don’t take pride in their job and they are only there to capture a paycheck. Taking pride in the job means understanding the rules first and foremost. Many of them don’t.

 

[PeetWeet1]

How would you solve the problem?

IMO - If you want better adult officials, then you need to pay more $ and provide them better training.

For the younger, general population teams:

Volunteer linesman
One center ref
High standards for paid refs
If no refs are available, coaches alternate
Make all coaches pass a rules test

 

[Fk_Pitt]

How would you solve the problem?

IMO - If you want better adult officials, then you need to pay more $ and provide them better training.

I coach at one of the largest schools in Wpial. The bigger schools pay more believe it or not. It’s not set by wpial or the PIAA. So the better refs prefer to do our games. There’s just not enough good ones. There are plenty of good refs who ref at the club level who won’t do HS because of the problematic three whistle system. Additionally, if the PIAA did whatvthe rest of the world does, you could give the best ref the whistle and have them run the field and put the other less experienced refs on the lines with flags.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

The problem I have is when they don’t take pride in their job and they are only there to capture a paycheck. Taking pride in the job means understanding the rules first and foremost. Many of them don’t.

A few years back when my niece was playing in high school they had a play where a girl played a well weighted pass behind the defenders that a teammate ran onto and was alone on goal. The ref blows the whistle for offsides. I happened to have a good look at it from where I was sitting, and she was on sides by two or three yards, so not even close. And then a couple minutes later the exact same thing happens, and the ref calls the girl offsides again. I'm thinking that maybe because of the stupid three ref system the guy wasn't well positioned to make the call, maybe he just couldn't see she was clearly on side. So about ten minutes later a similar play happens. This time, when the pass was played the defender was standing right on the 15 yard line. The girl who was running on to the pass was just outside the 20 yard line. She was on side by more than five yards. And the ref was in a good position to see it all. And when the girl ran past the defender and played the ball, alone on goal, the ref blows his whistle and calls her offside again.

It was then that it dawned on me, the ref actually did not know the offsides rule. He clearly thought that whether you were offsides or not was determined by where you were when you played the ball, not where you were when your teammate passed the ball. I can completely understand missing a call. But I just cannot fathom how someone could be working a game at that level and clearly not know the offsides rule.

 

[Fk_Pitt]

A few years back when my niece was playing in high school they had a play where a girl played a well weighted pass behind the defenders that a teammate ran onto and was alone on goal. The ref blows the whistle for offsides. I happened to have a good look at it from where I was sitting, and she was on sides by two or three yards, so not even close. And then a couple minutes later the exact same thing happens, and the ref calls the girl offsides again. I'm thinking that maybe because of the stupid three ref system the guy wasn't well positioned to make the call, maybe he just couldn't see she was clearly on side. So about ten minutes later a similar play happens. This time, when the pass was played the defender was standing right on the 15 yard line. The girl who was running on to the pass was just outside the 20 yard line. She was on side by more than five yards. And the ref was in a good position to see it all. And when the girl ran past the defender and played the ball, alone on goal, the ref blows his whistle and calls her offside again.

It was then that it dawned on me, the ref actually did not know the offsides rule. He clearly thought that whether you were offsides or not was determined by where you were when you played the ball, not where you were when your teammate passed the ball. I can completely understand missing a call. But I just cannot fathom how someone could be working a game at that level and clearly not know the offsides rule.

It’s a shame, but it’s absolutely true that every game you don’t know if you’re going to get someone who doesn’t understand the offside rule. And if they don’t understand that basic rule, what makes anyone think that they would know the other rules?

I will say that at times, refs will call offside in HS to level the playing field. Im not saying it’s right but I do see it happen. In our section, relatively every game is a battle between two good teams, but there’s always been one school in our section in which we and everyone else could score 60 goals on them if we wanted. That’s honestly no exaggeration. So we know before the game that we have to manage it somehow in a way to keep the score down. We played them this year and the referee called our girls offside every time they got behind the defense, regardless of where they started the run from. Of course we didn’t complain because the refs were actually helping us keep the score down, but my point is that it does happen. And in your nieces section, I can certainly see that happening.

 

[TheSpecialSauce]

For the younger, general population teams:

Volunteer linesman
One center ref
High standards for paid refs
If no refs are available, coaches alternate
Make all coaches pass a rules test

How many games have you volunteered your time to officiate? Surely you have some free time during the week.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

And in your nieces section, I can certainly see that happening.

Oh, believe me, they managed the score in quite a few games. The one I'm talking about wasn't one of them, because while they won comfortably it only ended up something like 4-0, so it wasn't one of the really bad ones.

They played Connellsville one Saturday. Scored the first goal less than minute into the game. After about eight minutes or so they were already ahead 5-0. With their best scorers all on the bench. Had they wanted to they literally could have won the game 50 or 60 to 0 with no problem at all. But they had a "rule" against that, and once they got to about six or seven goals in the half they basically weren't allowed to score anymore. In the second half I started counting and at one point they had completed something like 75 straight passes without turning the ball over. They ended up scoring something like 12 or 13, but they could have basically scored at will if they had wanted to.

 

[Fk_Pitt]

Oh, believe me, they managed the score in quite a few games. The one I'm talking about wasn't one of them, because while they won comfortably it only ended up something like 4-0, so it wasn't one of the really bad ones.

They played Connellsville one Saturday. Scored the first goal less than minute into the game. After about eight minutes or so they were already ahead 5-0. With their best scorers all on the bench. Had they wanted to they literally could have won the game 50 or 60 to 0 with no problem at all. But they had a "rule" against that, and once they got to about six or seven goals in the half they basically weren't allowed to score anymore. In the second half I started counting and at one point they had completed something like 75 straight passes without turning the ball over. They ended up scoring something like 12 or 13, but they could have basically scored at will if they had wanted to.

I get it. Truly I do. One goal per minute over 80 minutes is not out of the question. And then playing keepaway for 70 minutes is degrading as well. It’s a no win situation.

 

[eastender2]

They will never do it, but the WPIAL really should go to a sort of pro/rel system. Put all the teams that can't compete in one section and take one team from that section to the playoffs. Divide the good teams into 2 or 3 other sections, it would be more fun/competitive for everyone. I'm sure it's not fun going into a game knowing the other team could beat you 50-0 if they wanted to, game after game after game.

 

[mike412]

In La Liga, two weeks ago, Levante was trying to press Barcelona very high. So high they had all 10 position players well inside Barca’s half. A linesman called Suarez offside on a long clear to him by Ter Stegen. He was behind the defender when the ball was played, but he was not offside. Why? He was not past the midfield line. The linesman didn’t know the offside rule.

Barcelona protested but to no avail. At least not at that instant. In the second half, a repeat of the same play. This time no offside call and Suarez kicks the ball 25 meters ahead, catches up and goes in 1-on-1 on the goalie. No contest. Goal.

I assume that at halftime the ref had a talk with the linesman, but it is embarrassing that in a top league a linesman wouldn’t know that rule.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

In La Liga, two weeks ago, Levante was trying to press Barcelona very high. So high they had all 10 position players well inside Barca’s half. A linesman called Suarez offside on a long clear to him by Ter Stegen. He was behind the defender when the ball was played, but he was not offside. Why? He was not past the midfield line. The linesman didn’t know the offside rule.

Barcelona protested but to no avail. At least not at that instant. In the second half, a repeat of the same play. This time no offside call and Suarez kicks the ball 25 meters ahead, catches up and goes in 1-on-1 on the goalie. No contest. Goal.

I assume that at halftime the ref had a talk with the linesman, but it is embarrassing that in a top league a linesman wouldn’t know that rule.

The US Men's team actually won a World Cup qualifier years ago on that exact play. They were playing down in Central America, maybe Honduras or Guatemala or the like. The US cleared a pass up to Landon Donovan. When the ball was played he was behind the last defender but not across the center line. He went in alone on goal and scored what turned out to be the game winner. The defenders for the opponent went nuts yelling at the ref and linesman that he was clearly offsides, but they both knew the rule and stood by the call.