Could NIL deals solve the opt-out issue?

[HailToPitt725]

For as many issues as this era has, I think a benefit that may arise is tying NIL deals to playing time. For example, a portion or all of the sum would be forfeited if a player decides to opt-out during a season.

Also, does anyone think something like this could lead to some type of collective bargaining agreement that standardizes what contingencies are tied to such deals?

Just some food for thought…

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

For as many issues as this era has, I think a benefit that may arise is tying NIL deals to playing time. For example, a portion or all of the sum would be forfeited if a player decides to opt-out during a season.

Also, does anyone think something like this could lead to some type of collective bargaining agreement that standardizes what contingencies are tied to such deals?

Just some food for thought…

No because they arent technically "pay for play." If Addison wants to opt out of the Alamo Bowl, I dont see how the boosters can legally require him to. They bought his marketing rights, they cannot force him to play. What if he says he's hurt? Or he needs a mental health break? There's just no way

 

[The Ole Six-Fiver]

Since everything else about college football is going through upheaval, they should change Bowl games to not count as part of a team’s record or the players stats. Make them truly exhibition games. Since we’re heading to the state where half of the team will not play in them, as well as many coaches.

If that sounds bitter or snarky, well, guilty as charged … but I truly do believe it. It is a tiny thing, but it’s BS that a HC gets his record dinged with a L just because the best player and the top coordinator caught the diva disease ahead of time. It’s not “just like if those players missed because of injury “, either. It’s just not. There’s a palpable difference in the emotion. Players (and coaches) not participating on purpose gives a rotten taste.

Maybe they should just play the bowl games virtually as video games. Then everyone ‘plays’ and nobody gets hurt, unless carpel tunnel arises. For some of those garbage bowls, the TV ratings would likely be no worse.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

No because they arent technically "pay for play." If Addison wants to opt out of the Alamo Bowl, I dont see how the boosters can legally require him to. They bought his marketing rights, they cannot force him to play. What if he says he's hurt? Or he needs a mental health break? There's just no way

This is going to be interesting though. With this money, the player transfers and the opt outs, I can see college football's interest falling off.

 

[giveitarest]

Would opting out then stop someone from continuing to get money? I would think those paying the cash have some protection. Also wonder if at some point there are breach of contracts for transferring out, Opting out etc.
Thinking some blowback will happen.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

Would opting out then stop someone from continuing to get money? I would think those paying the cash have some protection. Also wonder if at some point there are breach of contracts for transferring out, Opting out etc.
Thinking some blowback will happen.

What about getting injured?

Think about it like this: Kenny Pickett signs some deals with Bowser, Edgar Synder, Rivers Casino, etc but suffers a season-ending injury. The injury doesn't prevent him from doing commercials. Those companies are not paying him "to play." The USC boosters, theoretically arent paying Addison "to play." They are buying his NIL rights. Whether he plays or not seems irrelevant as long as he's on the team. I don't know what protection these companies can have if a player gets injured or opts out. And instead of opting out, you could always play 1 series and tell the trainer you are injured.

 

[APanther]

Easy. Comes down to whatever is in the contract between the player and the collective. Just add a clause that if otherwise healthy, player agrees to forbear from opting out from any bowl game or full season.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

Easy. Comes down to whatever is in the contract between the player and the collective. Just add a clause that if otherwise healthy, player agrees to forbear from opting out from any bowl game or full season.

Its not a pay for play contract. What are you talking about? Its a "marketing deal." Can Bowser force Kenny to play if he has to miss a game due to a death in the family or something like that? What if the Steelers are mathematically eliminated and Kenny wants to sit out the last game. Can Edgar Snyder force him to play? Dont be ridiculous

 

[thebadby2]

What about getting injured?

Think about it like this: Kenny Pickett signs some deals with Bowser, Edgar Synder, Rivers Casino, etc but suffers a season-ending injury. The injury doesn't prevent him from doing commercials. Those companies are not paying him "to play." The USC boosters, theoretically arent paying Addison "to play." They are buying his NIL rights. Whether he plays or not seems irrelevant as long as he's on the team. I don't know what protection these companies can have if a player gets injured or opts out. And instead of opting out, you could always play 1 series and tell the trainer you are injured.

As in every other legal business transaction in the real world, the contracts signed by the parties will govern their respective obligations. If an NIL contract required a player to play in a bowl game, or penalized him for not playing, that would be valid and enforceable. The contract could have an injury provision requiring the player to prove he was injured if left a bowl game as you described.

Law firms and sports marketing firms have already formed departments to do NIL work for all sides--the players, the schools and the sponsors. It's a new frontier and there's a ton of money to be made.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

As in every other legal business transaction in the real world, the contracts signed by the parties will govern their respective obligations. If an NIL contract required a player to play in a bowl game, or penalized him for not playing, that would be valid and enforceable. The contract could have an injury provision requiring the player to prove he was injured if left a bowl game as you described.

Law firms and sports marketing firms have already formed departments to do NIL work for all sides--the players, the schools and the sponsors. It's a new frontier and there's a ton of money to be made.

So you are saying Edgar Snyder's NIL deal with Kenny next season can be voided if he doesn't play X amount of games or whatever?

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Saying these deals are not about "pay for play" is like saying Congress is not about enriching themselves.

There is absolutely no entity in America, none that is going to get a $350K increase by Jordan Addison's name let alone $3.5 million! None. Nor any college player. None.

Christ in the NFL, look at how few guys truly have big ad contracts.

So this is about pay for play. Nothing else. If say 10,000 Jordan Addison Jerseys were sold at say $100, which generate a million dollars and Addison gets 30% ($300K) then that is NIL. Paying him $3.5 million because an unrelated "collective" who doubles as an USC booster to transfer from Pitt to USC is pay for play.

I can easily try this in court. So let's just call it paying for playing and develop some ground rules and a CBA. The guys at Northwestern look fairly prescient now.

 

[4Mark_Marty]

Easy. Comes down to whatever is in the contract between the player and the collective. Just add a clause that if otherwise healthy, player agrees to forbear from opting out from any bowl game or full season.

Yeah. You're off base here. Theoretically. There is no pay for play allowed. But without enforcement anything goes.

 

[APanther]

Its not a pay for play contract. What are you talking about? Its a "marketing deal." Can Bowser force Kenny to play if he has to miss a game due to a death in the family or something like that? What if the Steelers are mathematically eliminated and Kenny wants to sit out the last game. Can Edgar Snyder force him to play? Dont be ridiculous

Your reference to Pickett is disingenuous. NFL contracts are covered by a CBA which sets the parameters. There is no CBA for college athletics. So it’s whatever the two parties agree.
As to “pay for play,”. Bring it. Two problems. 1. No one to enforce. The NCAA is in record that they would only “enforce” the most “outrageous” violations (some wiggle room there). 2. The NCAA has already paid $305 million in attorneys fees in O’Bannon and Alston where the NCAA got (correctly) hammered.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

Saying these deals are not about "pay for play" is like saying Congress is not about enriching themselves.

There is absolutely no entity in America, none that is going to get a $350K increase by Jordan Addison's name let alone $3.5 million! None. Nor any college player. None.

Christ in the NFL, look at how few guys truly have big ad contracts.

So this is about pay for play. Nothing else. If say 10,000 Jordan Addison Jerseys were sold at say $100, which generate a million dollars and Addison gets 30% ($300K) then that is NIL. Paying him $3.5 million because an unrelated "collective" who doubles as an USC booster to transfer from Pitt to USC is pay for play.

I can easily try this in court. So let's just call it paying for playing and develop some ground rules and a CBA. The guys at Northwestern look fairly prescient now.

Right so either enforce the rule or get rid of it. But you know what the NCAA is doing? They are allowing these pay for play (but we'll call them non-pay for play) deals because it allows their players to retain a shred of amateurism even though we all know they are no longer amateurs if they ever were. The NCAA doesn’t want pro contracts, unions, CBAs, so they'll allow these. And its why if I'm the Pitt's of the world (the majority), I speak up or get out. Enforce the rule or get rid of it.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

Your reference to Pickett is disingenuous. NFL contracts are covered by a CBA which sets the parameters. There is no CBA for college athletics. So it’s whatever the two parties agree.
As to “pay for play,”. Bring it. Two problems. 1. No one to enforce. The NCAA is in record that they would only “enforce” the most “outrageous” violations (some wiggle room there). 2. The NCAA has already paid $305 million in attorneys fees in O’Bannon and Alston where the NCAA got (correctly) hammered.

Why are you talking about his NFL contract. I specifically was talking about his Edgar Snyder contract. How much clearer could I be?

And it would be super easy to enforce. I could do it. Or maybe they can hire a HS student or college intern? It is obvious that Jordan Addison is not worth $3.5 million to local LA businesses. His NIL deal ranks near the top of the world

 

[APanther]

Saying these deals are not about "pay for play" is like saying Congress is not about enriching themselves.

There is absolutely no entity in America, none that is going to get a $350K increase by Jordan Addison's name let alone $3.5 million! None. Nor any college player. None.

Christ in the NFL, look at how few guys truly have big ad contracts.

So this is about pay for play. Nothing else. If say 10,000 Jordan Addison Jerseys were sold at say $100, which generate a million dollars and Addison gets 30% ($300K) then that is NIL. Paying him $3.5 million because an unrelated "collective" who doubles as an USC booster to transfer from Pitt to USC is pay for play.

I can easily try this in court. So let's just call it paying for playing and develop some ground rules and a CBA. The guys at Northwestern look fairly prescient now.

Where is law that pay for play is illegal?

 

[APanther]

Why are you talking about his NFL contract. I specifically was talking about his Edgar Snyder contract. How much clearer could I be?

And it would be super easy to enforce. I could do it. Or maybe they can hire a HS student or college intern? It is obvious that Jordan Addison is not worth $3.5 million to local LA businesses. His NIL deal ranks near the top of the world

What’s your authority that “pay for play” is illegal?

 

[pittdan77]

For as many issues as this era has, I think a benefit that may arise is tying NIL deals to playing time. For example, a portion or all of the sum would be forfeited if a player decides to opt-out during a season.

Also, does anyone think something like this could lead to some type of collective bargaining agreement that standardizes what contingencies are tied to such deals?

Just some food for thought…

I'm going to say that there probably isn't anything there that could force a kid to play. I don't think anyone is signing that.

So far as collective bargaining, there isn't any reason for the players to want to do that until a court sets a real boundary. The NFL players wouldn't have a CBA if it wasn't for wanting a big piece of the TV money so that's probably where the line gets drawn.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

Where is law that pay for play is illegal?

Where is the law that home teams have to count touchdowns for the visitors? When we play WVU, Pitt should not award any points for WVU TD's. There's no law against that. What's WVU going to do, sue us?

Please stop being an idiot and someone please ban this troll. No pay for play is a league rule. Leagues are allowed to set rules.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

What’s your authority that “pay for play” is illegal?

You are really a special level of stupid.

 

[pittdan77]

Where is the law that home teams have to count touchdowns for the visitors? When we play WVU, Pitt should not award any points for WVU TD's. There's no law against that. What's WVU going to do, sue us?

Please stop being an idiot and someone please ban this troll. No pay for play is a league rule. Leagues are allowed to set rules.

Dude, that is the single most disingenuous argument ever made on a Rivals message board. Impressive even by your low standards.

See, there is this place called the Supreme Court and they said that the rules that prevented pay to college athletes for their name, image, and likeness isn't fair based on a law that Congress made and a President signed. We call this Civics in the real world. The NCAA isn't going to enforce whatever rule they might have now because it isn't going to stand up when they get sued again.

 

[APanther]

I'm going to say that there probably isn't anything there that could force a kid to play. I don't think anyone is signing that.

So far as collective bargaining, there isn't any reason for the players to want to do that until a court sets a real boundary. The NFL players wouldn't have a CBA if it wasn't for wanting a big piece of the TV money so that's probably where the line gets drawn.

Non, no, no. Respectfully, you are missing it. With few exceptions, none applicable here, you can’t force someone to perform. Rather, the remedy is damages. Further, what are the damages if he skips game/season without excuse (a term defined in the contract). We’ll, there is something contracts called a liquidated damages clause. That is, the parties agree that if Jordan opts out, then he stipulates to damages of “x”. Easy pezzy.

 

[CJsE]

As in every other legal business transaction in the real world, the contracts signed by the parties will govern their respective obligations. If an NIL contract required a player to play in a bowl game, or penalized him for not playing, that would be valid and enforceable. The contract could have an injury provision requiring the player to prove he was injured if left a bowl game as you described.

Law firms and sports marketing firms have already formed departments to do NIL work for all sides--the players, the schools and the sponsors. It's a new frontier and there's a ton of money to be made.

College sports still isn't "real world."

The contracts must also follow state and federal laws, which some states have specific provisions for what is allowed in a college athlete's NIL deal.

Take California for example. USC or the PAC-12 could have a rule stating players aren't allowed to sign contracts that are based on performance, games played, etc. and California's NIL law doesn't allow for NIL contracts that contradict or create a conflict with school or conference rules or obligations. This also means that a player at a Nike school would likely not be able to sign a deal with Adidas (but may only apply to when they are performing activities for that school).

 

[APanther]

You are really a special level of stupid.

So, none?

 

[APanther]

College sports still isn't "real world."

The contracts must also follow state and federal laws, which some states have specific provisions for what is allowed in a college athlete's NIL deal.

Take California for example. USC or the PAC-12 could have a rule stating players aren't allowed to sign contracts that are based on performance, games played, etc. and California's NIL law doesn't allow for NIL contracts that contradict or create a conflict with school or conference rules or obligations. This also means that a player at a Nike school would likely not be able to sign a deal with Adidas (but may only apply to when they are performing activities for that school).

We could only wish there was federal law. As to any state law, then it has to conform to Alston.

 

[thebadby2]

You are really a special level of stupid.

You can't answer his question, yet he's stupid.

The answer is there is no rule that addresses this NIL/pay for play situation--not yet.

Add in the fact that any rule or regulation the NCAA or a league puts in place that conflicts with federal law--like a U.S. Supreme Court ruling on a constitutional issue--is invalid and unenforceable on its face.

I'm sure you knew that already though.

 

[APanther]

No because they arent technically "pay for play." If Addison wants to opt out of the Alamo Bowl, I dont see how the boosters can legally require him to. They bought his marketing rights, they cannot force him to play. What if he says he's hurt? Or he needs a mental health break? There's just no way

Put any exceptions the parties agree to in the contract. How it’s done.

 

[pittdan77]

Non, no, no. Respectfully, you are missing it. With few exceptions, none applicable here, you can’t force someone to perform. Rather, the remedy is damages. Further, what are the damages if he skips game/season without excuse (a term defined in the contract). We’ll, there is something contracts called a liquidated damages clause. That is, the parties agree that if Jordan opts out, then he stipulates to damages of “x”. Easy pezzy.

The guy putting liquidated damages on this sort of deal is losing to someone else every time. Especially for a guy like Addison.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Right so either enforce the rule or get rid of it. But you know what the NCAA is doing? They are allowing these pay for play (but we'll call them non-pay for play) deals because it allows their players to retain a shred of amateurism even though we all know they are no longer amateurs if they ever were. The NCAA doesn’t want pro contracts, unions, CBAs, so they'll allow these. And its why if I'm the Pitt's of the world (the majority), I speak up or get out. Enforce the rule or get rid of it.

No, they are enforcing it because they don't want to deal with Title IX ramifications of having to pay women's and men's non revenue sports. That's why! That's the whole thing. They will feel good because like 7 women out of 10,000 college athletes will make NIL money (real NIL money) as fair, because it is not the "schools" paying it, but private entities.

 

[APanther]

The guy putting liquidated damages on this sort of deal is losing to someone else every time. Especially for a guy like Addison.

Why is that?

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

Dude, that is the single most disingenuous argument ever made on a Rivals message board. Impressive even by your low standards.

See, there is this place called the Supreme Court and they said that the rules that prevented pay to college athletes for their name, image, and likeness isn't fair based on a law that Congress made and a President signed. We call this Civics in the real world. The NCAA isn't going to enforce whatever rule they might have now because it isn't going to stand up when they get sued again.

You missed the point. No pay for play is an NCAA rule. If they are worried if they enforce it, they will get sued and lose, fine, then get rid of the rule now. Dont be pussies and have a fake rule.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

You can't answer his question, yet he's stupid.

The answer is there is no rule that addresses this NIL/pay for play situation--not yet.

Add in the fact that any rule or regulation the NCAA or a league puts in place that conflicts with federal law--like a U.S. Supreme Court ruling on a constitutional issue--is invalid and unenforceable on its face.

I'm sure you knew that already though.

There is a rule. The NCAA does not allow its athletes to paid to play. They are allowed to make money, individually off of their NIL. A booster giving a player a way above market NIL deal is a pay for play deal.

 

[pittdan77]

Why is that?

Would you negotiate that into your deal if you were in the midst of a bidding war?

 

[pittdan77]

You missed the point. No pay for play is an NCAA rule. If they are worried if they enforce it, they will get sued and lose, fine, then get rid of the rule now. Dont be pussies and have a fake rule.

Rules that are illegal do not need to be followed. It's not a fake rule because the court left the question of limits unanswered.

 

[APanther]

Would you negotiate that into your deal if you were in the midst of a bidding war?

Absolutely! We do it every day, so do you! Negotiating to sell your house to “highest bidder”? Negotiations before acceptance does not end there. Sale as is? Scope of inspections? Liquidated damages if buyer can’t close? How it’s done in everyday life. “personal services contracts (NIL)” are no different in substance.

 

[pittdan77]

Absolutely! We do it every day, so do you! Negotiating to sell your house to “highest bidder”? Negotiations before acceptance does not end there. Sale as is? Scope of inspections? Liquidated damages if buyer can’t close? How it’s done in everyday life. “personal services contracts (NIL)” are no different in substance.

So you would allow someone to include that language in a contract if you held all of the leverage? I don't even know how you'd prove damages without some heinous act that makes the kids NIL worthless. "Yes the kid sat out four games because he said he had an injury but we all know it's because he's going to be a top ten draft pick." Would love to see the look on a judge's face if you made that argument.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

Rules that are illegal do not need to be followed. It's not a fake rule because the court left the question of limits unanswered.

So the NCAA's no pay for play rule is not currently illegal.

 

[pittdan77]

So the NCAA's no pay for play rule is not currently illegal.

Yet.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

Yet.

Right. So enforce it then

 

[APanther]

So you would allow someone to include that language in a contract if you held all of the leverage? I don't even know how you'd prove damages without some heinous act that makes the kids NIL worthless. "Yes the kid sat out four games because he said he had an injury but we all know it's because he's going to be a top ten draft pick." Would love to see the look on a judge's face if you made that argument.

Exactly! That’s why you have liquidated damages clauses in many contracts! Liquidated damages are much a clause in all real estate contracts as I noted. Why? Because you don’t want to be n a situation where if one party or the other backs out of a signed contract you have to prove actual damages in court. That’s expensive to prove/litigate. Same, as here, in what amounts to a contract for personal services. If I’m Jordan, I want that amount lowest. Collective? I want the highest. Just negotiate it out. Liquidated damage clauses come into play where, as here, damages should be awarded, but difficult to calculate.