FWIW, on paper, Cal's not really recruiting ...

[yc_ballcat]

... that much better than Joe B. Hall or Eddie Sutton did at Kentucky. Just to keep things in perspective. Go back and look at, say, Kentucky's 1983 or 1984 teams, by any measure, those teams were loaded with talent. Mr. Basketball from 4 different states (not even counting Sam Bowie). Multiple players ranked in the top 20. Several among the best in their class. Kentucky has, what, 9 McD AAs now? Kentucky had 7 McD AAs then, and the next guys weren't far behind that level (e.g. Mel Turpin, Brett Bearup). Cal isn't really doing anything drastically different. Kentucky has always stock-piled elite talent. It's Kentucky! The biggest difference IMO is ... the times.

If Sutton had been able to suit up all his guys (Shawn Kemp, Chris Mills, Eric Manuel, Rex Chapman, Winston Bennett, LaRon Ellis, James Blackmon ... at least 6 McD AAs right there) he might have had similar teams, too.



Cal's just kicked it up a notch. From a pure talent standpoint, this is probably not the best Kentucky team. If they win out, you might get an argument for best, but I doubt many Kentucky fans would say this team was the most talented. Only from a length and size standpoint are they remarkable. Of course, arguing best vs most talented is largely an academic exercise if you go 40-0.



Everyone just gets caught up in the McD AA thing. For one, McD AA teams are larger now (24 total). Two decades ago, there were 11 per team (22 total), and perhaps 10 per team before that (don't feel like checking). Further, McD AA is only one benchmark.

 

[BargeDog]

Let's use NBA draft-worthiness as benchmark

Probably 9 on this KY squad

Did any prior KY team--or any team--even approach that?

Truthfully, it's a season-long NBA-readiness program masquerading as a college team.

Don't much care for it or him.

If you lose the pros you at least get a good draft pick (ask the Pirates how they got McCutcheon, Cole and Alvarez)
In college b-ball and football, the teams that win the most get the best players.

Tough to move up under those rules.

 

[Harve74]

Uh, no, not actually.

Originally posted by yc_ballcat:

... that much better than Joe B. Hall or Eddie Sutton did at Kentucky. Just to keep things in perspective. Go back and look at, say, Kentucky's 1983 or 1984 teams, by any measure, those teams were loaded with talent. Mr. Basketball from 4 different states (not even counting Sam Bowie). Multiple players ranked in the top 20. Several among the best in their class. Kentucky has, what, 9 McD AAs now? Kentucky had 7 McD AAs then, and the next guys weren't far behind that level (e.g. Mel Turpin, Brett Bearup). Cal isn't really doing anything drastically different. Kentucky has always stock-piled elite talent. It's Kentucky! The biggest difference IMO is ... the times.

If Sutton had been able to suit up all his guys (Shawn Kemp, Chris Mills, Eric Manuel, Rex Chapman, Winston Bennett, LaRon Ellis, James Blackmon ... at least 6 McD AAs right there) he might have had similar teams, too.



Cal's just kicked it up a notch. From a pure talent standpoint, this is probably not the best Kentucky team. If they win out, you might get an argument for best, but I doubt many Kentucky fans would say this team was the most talented. Only from a length and size standpoint are they remarkable. Of course, arguing best vs most talented is largely an academic exercise if you go 40-0.



Everyone just gets caught up in the McD AA thing. For one, McD AA teams are larger now (24 total). Two decades ago, there were 11 per team (22 total), and perhaps 10 per team before that (don't feel like checking). Further, McD AA is only one benchmark.

Well, to really keep it in perspective, if you're using the 82-83 and 83-84 teams as a comparison, you need to add the four McDonald's All Americans who signed with Kentucky and would be seniors and juniors to your list of 9 on this current roster. Those six in 83 included three juniors and seniors -including Sam Bowie. And, that list should include one more, Nerlens Noel, who, despite being ranked as high as the number one prospect nationally, wasn't eligible for the McDonald's list because he reclassified too late. You could also throw in Willy Cauley-Stein, who was ESPN#32, missing the McDonald's list.

But, to stay apples to apples, we'll leave him out. Instead of 9, it should be 14 to 6. That IS significantly better.

The McDonald's team was 15 in its first year, 1977 and has been as high as 27 in 1979. It had a 4 year period at 22 and two outliers at 20 and 21 in 1990 and 1999 respectively, as well as 3 seasons at 25, but seems to have settled in at 24.

Sutton's 6 McD's All Americans were accumulated over several classes. Calipari had six in ONE class.

Calipari has assembled the highest ranked rosters ever. It's disingenuous to state otherwise.

You might want to compare that to his immediate predecessor, Tubby Smith. The highest number of McDonald's All Americans on any of Tubby's 10 rosters was 3.

 

[yc_ballcat]

Re: Uh, no, not actually.

Fair points raised here.

Six AAs in 1 class is indeed unprecedented and remarkable. Still, it doesn't happen solely because Cal is an otherworldly salesman. He can sign 6 guys in one year in part because of all the attrition. If Davis and Noel were guaranteed to be around for 3-4 years, like Bowie and Turpin were, it's unreasonable to assume all 14 of those guys would have signed at UK. That's why I say "the times."

Hord, Master, Minniefield, Bowie (although he was hurt), Bearup, and Walker were all on the 83 team and were all McD AAs. Plus Turpin who was essentially a McD AA level recruit (top 10-15 in his class) and Hurt who was a Parade AA. Not sure about Beal nor the others. In 1984 UK added Bennett and Blackmon, two more McD AAs, to replace Hurt and Hord. So the 1984 team had at least 7 McD AAs plus Turpin. Possibly more if we look at the entire roster. And no identical twins to give you an automatic extra. The following year, 2 more McD AAs: Davender and Jenkins. Kentucky was on another level back then too.

They weren't signing 6 per class because no one was signing 6 per class. We can't simply transport Cal back to 1983 and say he'd be signing 6 McD AAs. You might argue he'd have gotten to 4 before Steve Fisher and that's fair. Even a curmugdeon like Sutton may have gotten to 4 at UK without Prop 48. Cal barely blinks at Prop 48 issues. In Sutton's (and Pitino's early) era, Prop 48 was a scourge. Yes, Cal's a better recruiter, you might say significantly better, but he's also got built-in advantages (no HS to NBA; better mechanisms in place to deal with academic challenges) that his predecessors did not have.

Tubby coached at UK in the heart of the HS to NBA era. He never signed any Davis or Noel types because those guys weren't going to college then. How many of the McD AAs during Tubby's tenure went straight to the NBA? Maybe he never gets those guys, but he never had the chance. Tubby had a much tougher acceptance at UK than Cal. Some of that is prior success and personality, but not all.

Cal's immediate predecessor at UK was Gillespie. With McD AA teams, 1990-1992 was 20 total (10 per team). 1993 until at least 1996 was 22 total (11 per team).

 

[yc_ballcat]

Re: Let's use NBA draft-worthiness as benchmark

Probably not. 1996 UK was close. Delk, Walker, Anderson, Mercer, and McCarty were all drafted. I think Nazzie Mohammad was a prospect. Possibly Allen Edwards and Jeff Sheppard. Not sure about Wayne Turner. That team was stacked. Scotty the Hot Dog Vendor could've cut down the nets with that group. Duke in 1999 had Brand, Langdon, Maggette, Avery, and Battier. Carrawell may have been close. Jason Williams, Boozer, and Dunleavy came the following year. Of course UConn 2006 had at least 6 prospects.

9 prospects on this UK team might be accurate but it's a little misleading, too. Particularly in comparing against other groups, having identical twins skews the numbers up 1. That's like having the same player twice. If you recruit 1, you recruit them both. Counting them like 2 separate players is giving too much credit IMO. Further, I don't think there are any great individual talents in this group. No John Wall, Anthony Davis, Shawn Kemp, or Rajon Rondo type players. Not sure there are any Tayshaun Prince or Antoine Walker 10+ year types either. Perhaps I'm underestimating. Guys like Bledsoe, Cousins, and Knight haven't set an easy precedent for them to match, either.