Here’s an interesting idea - recruiting

[Sean Miller Fan]

Offensive ORTG efficiency power rating by player per year



Toney

FR-95.3

SO-109

JR-110.4-best yet



Johnson

FR-98.4

SO-93

JR-117.30 best yet



Champ

FR-108

SO-117.5-best yet



Coulibaly

FR-88.8

SO-133.3-major improvement



Drumgoole

FR-61.9

SO-83-improvement but still bad to date





All 5 of those players have improved every year in the program under Capel. The only player that did NOT improve, but has regressed as of today is…



Trey Mcgowens

FR-99.5

SO-91.6

JR-89.1





Its almost amazing that this theory of Capel not being able to develop players is even being mentioned. The only player that hasn’t developed at all is Trey Mcgowens, who looks to be perhaps uncoachable at a completely new program with the same dumb mistakes he makes every game with his poor ORTG as a junior.

Its amazing too because the same people that were touting Mcgowens as this huge loss after playing Mcneese State have quickly gone quiet. To make matters even more ironic, Ithiel Horton has a better ORTG rating than Mcgowens right now with an ORTG of 89.2, and Horton has been the worst defender on the team in our rotation and simply not that good at all on offense, and he is still more efficient than Trey Mcgowens on offense.

I wont even get into our improved defense, which just held a team for 14 minutes straight without a single basket.

The great SMF said if 1 of the 3 had to leave, it should be McGowens. I thought Johnson had more upside and was a better ballhandler and Toney had the look of a throwback H/D era player. McGowens was a duplicate

 

[BballinsiderfromPitt]

Your really like to LOL. that’s good. Laughing is healthy.

I mean, you only liked Vader’s post because it confirmed your bias...

I like to actually have my own opinions

 

[mo cheeks]

I mean, you only liked Vader’s post because it confirmed your bias...

I like to actually have my own opinions

Vader posted facts that support a position. Facts. I appreciate the work he did to come up with that. Hard to argue, helpful and I learned something. I struggle with Horton, but hope that turns around. I have watched and played and coached so much basketball ( gym rat, basketball court across the street from my house ) that I can generally pick up things very quickly, not sure why, but I am usually reasonably correct. You don’t see the strong potential of odukale, it was obvious in 5 minuted.

you posted something silly about him being lightly recruited. Jeffrees potential showed in the st francis game on one play. Steal and coast to coast. His bball iq showed right away as well.

 

[pittjas]

Lol.

McGowens is 1000x the player Horton is. I don’t need to see 100 advanced stats to realize that.

Our defense is improved because we’ve played 5 shitty teams. Get back to me after the ACC schedule.

McGowens is a good player and if the goal is just to maximize talent then Pitt’s better with him.

But him and X just do not co-exist. And personally, I’m building my program around X over Trey 10/10 times. X just has that winning dog mentality and is a much better ball handler. Even though Trey has a way higher long-term ceiling.

The problem is Horton is giving us about 1/10 of what Trey gave us. Maybe less.

Hopefully the Horton/Sibande duo can do it

 

[BballinsiderfromPitt]

Vader posted facts that support a position. Facts. I appreciate the work he did to come up with that. Hard to argue, helpful and I learned something. I struggle with Horton, but hope that turns around. I have watched and played and coached so much basketball ( gym rat, basketball court across the street from my house ) that I can generally pick up things very quickly, not sure why, but I am usually reasonably correct. You don’t see the strong potential of odukale, it was obvious in 5 minuted.

you posted something silly about him being lightly recruited. Jeffrees potential showed in the st francis game on one play. Steal and coast to coast. His bball iq showed right away as well.

We played 5 absolutely terrible teams. I don’t care about advanced stats vs 5 absolutely terrible teams. Femi is a nice backup PG and if he’s ever the starter and Capel doesn’t get to the tournament next year he should polish his resume because he’ll never be a starter on an ACC team that makes the tournament.

 

[Vader_Storm]

Vader posted facts that support a position. Facts. I appreciate the work he did to come up with that. Hard to argue, helpful and I learned something. I struggle with Horton, but hope that turns around. I have watched and played and coached so much basketball ( gym rat, basketball court across the street from my house ) that I can generally pick up things very quickly, not sure why, but I am usually reasonably correct. You don’t see the strong potential of odukale, it was obvious in 5 minuted.

you posted something silly about him being lightly recruited. Jeffrees potential showed in the st francis game on one play. Steal and coast to coast. His bball iq showed right away as well.

It fits in line with so many Pitt players before them, meaning what players like Nasir Robinson or Gary Mcghee did as freshmen with respect to their offensive rating. Their ratings as freshmen were not close to 100+, but you could see "potential".

There was a long post provided about underclassmen that performed at Pitt their freshmen or sophomore year earlier in this thread. A lot of those players redshirted. Lamar Patterson for example played in 11 games his "true" freshmen year and then he received a redshirt. In Patterson's true freshmen year, he had an ORTG of 84. Gilbert Brown went to prep school at South Kent. Then he redshirted. Brown was a 21 1/2 year old freshmen. This isnt even comparable to a player like Jeffress who is 17. What class you are, freshmen, sophomore, etc.. means nothing. Its irrelevant. And the NBA doesn't care. The only thing that matters is "age".

The only player on the Pitt roster that redshirted was Horton. And most of the players are "young" for their class.

 

[pittchagg]

The only player on the Pitt roster that redshirted was Horton. And most of the players are "young" for their class.

I don’t think this is true. Champagnie is young for his grade, and Jeffress is obviously very young for his grade. But the rest of the primary contributors on the team are freshmen who are 18 turning 19, sophomores who are 19 turning 20, or juniors who are 20 turning 21. They’re not “old” and didn’t redshirt or take a postgrad, but they’re mostly their natural age for their grade.

 

[Galaxy Pitt]

I don’t think this is true. Champagnie is young for his grade, and Jeffress is obviously very young for his grade. But the rest of the primary contributors on the team are freshmen who are 18 turning 19, sophomores who are 19 turning 20, or juniors who are 20 turning 21. They’re not “old” and didn’t redshirt or take a postgrad, but they’re mostly their natural age for their grade.

Typical lies by the board clown Vader. He might want to check his facts err lies about Gilbert Brown. He was born in 1987 and was at Pitt in 2006. Nowhere in this Galaxy does that equal a 21-1/2 year old freshman

 

[Chescat]

We played 5 absolutely terrible teams. I don’t care about advanced stats vs 5 absolutely terrible teams. Femi is a nice backup PG and if he’s ever the starter and Capel doesn’t get to the tournament next year he should polish his resume because he’ll never be a starter on an ACC team that makes the tournament.

My posts about Femi are basically in line with yours.
I never say "never" because it could happen for him
in the future, but I doubt it. I once posted that Vader
tends to be "over exuberant" when it comes to predicting
future success for those he thoroughly researches.

The stats I look at are basic to anyone who has been
around basketball. His ORG is what he tends to use
most. I get that, but I also use the eye test. Whether
he or anyone gives a sh.t, I fall back on my own basketball
experience when I post my OPINIONS on here. IMO right
now Femi is doing pretty well for a recruit we took only
after failing on others. Currently I see him as a back up
with some potential. If Capel doesn't recruit over him,
we're in trouble.

 

[Vader_Storm]

I don’t think this is true. Champagnie is young for his grade, and Jeffress is obviously very young for his grade. But the rest of the primary contributors on the team are freshmen who are 18 turning 19, sophomores who are 19 turning 20, or juniors who are 20 turning 21. They’re not “old” and didn’t redshirt or take a postgrad, but they’re mostly their natural age for their grade.

Ithiel Horton is a 20 year old redshirt sophomore. He wont turn 21 until long after the season ends. Horton is younger than Trey Mcgowens who classed up.

Karim Coulibaly is currently a 19 year old sophomore. Coulibaly's birthday is coming up this month.

Audiese Toney just turned 21 years old and he's already a junior. Xavier Johnson just turned 21 back in October.

Justin Champagnie wont even turn 20 until long after the season is over. He is a "young" 19 year old sophomore which is why he wasnt originally in the 2019 class.

Jeffress is 17. He's the youngest player entering ACC play in almost 40 years.

That's 6 of our main players. Compare those ages to any of those Dixon teams. Carl Krauser was 21 years old his freshmen year.

 

[SoufOaklin4Life]

Will femi develop into a good player ?
I don’t know -
I do recognize he looked like a disaster against sfpa and has been substantially better since .
Perhaps a low bar -
But he no longer looks out of place on the court

That’s enough

AKC-
I don’t need stats - he’s active - fundamentally sound - plays long and quick on defense -
He’s a below the rim guy on offense - which will have limitations - but he’s substantially better and contributor already

Hughley is a more offensively capable akc - but his defense is way behind
He simply needs to slow down or at least have the game slow down for him- his mistakes are all rushing related

Collier - we have no idea what we have since he’s not gotten much run- and definitely pressed when in the game

Max- probably a multi year project hopefully -
I’m good with having a bouncy long big to develop at the end of the bench

Terrell brown has been passed by 2 young bigs and that’s not a bad thing

Horton needs to come off the bench - and only against zones - of our zone offense gets better ball movement
I’m not seeing any other value so far -
He looks slow out there and unless he develops an Ashton Gibbs handle , side step, and quick release - he’s a net negative out there currently

 

[pittchagg]

Ithiel Horton is a 20 year old redshirt sophomore. He wont turn 21 until long after the season ends. Horton is younger than Trey Mcgowens who classed up.

Karim Coulibaly is currently a 19 year old sophomore. Coulibaly's birthday is coming up this month.

Audiese Toney just turned 21 years old and he's already a junior. Xavier Johnson just turned 21 back in October.

Justin Champagnie wont even turn 20 until long after the season is over. He is a "young" 19 year old sophomore which is why he wasnt originally in the 2019 class.

Jeffress is 17. He's the youngest player entering ACC play in almost 40 years.

That's 6 of our main players. Compare those ages to any of those Dixon teams. Carl Krauser was 21 years old his freshmen year.

Agreed on Horton, you’re right. Horton is as young for his grade as Champagnie is for his. But the ages you mentioned for Coulibaly, Toney, and Xavier are definitely normal for sophomores and juniors. They’re not old for their class (Femi and Max are old), but “normal” doesn’t necessarily mean “young.”

 

[BballinsiderfromPitt]

Agreed on Horton, you’re right. Horton is as young for his grade as Champagnie is for his. But the ages you mentioned for Coulibaly, Toney, and Xavier are definitely normal for sophomores and juniors. They’re not old for their class (Femi and Max are old), but “normal” doesn’t necessarily mean “young.”

Femi will be a 24 year old senior, here or somewhere else. He is certainly not “young”. Which is also concerning that EVERYONE was aware of him and he was an older kid which every team wants older kids and still no P5’s wanted him.

 

[Vader_Storm]

Agreed on Horton, you’re right. Horton is as young for his grade as Champagnie is for his. But the ages you mentioned for Coulibaly, Toney, and Xavier are definitely normal for sophomores and juniors. They’re not old for their class (Femi and Max are old), but “normal” doesn’t necessarily mean “young.”

Those players birthdays are late fall early winter, as opposed to being born in April. You are talking about a 6+ month swing for a normal freshmen which is a significant difference. Toney classed up, he was right on the border for being in the next class and had the classwork needed from Trinity to do so.

Couilbaly is currently a 19 year old sophomore. That is "young". I mean, Tyrese Radford for Virginia Tech is a sophomore too. Except Radford is turning 22 years old. Its only a 2 1/2 year difference in comparison to Coulibaly.

Comparing students to D1 players basketball ages by class do not go hand in hand.

 

[BballinsiderfromPitt]

Those players birthdays are late fall early winter, as opposed to being born in April. You are talking about a 6+ month swing for a normal freshmen which is a significant difference. Toney classed up, he was right on the border for being in the next class and had the classwork needed from Trinity to do so.

Couilbaly is currently a 19 year old sophomore. That is "young". I mean, Tyrese Radford for Virginia Tech is a sophomore too. Except Radford is turning 22 years old. Its only a 2 1/2 year difference in comparison to Coulibaly.

Comparing students to D1 players basketball ages by class do not go hand in hand.

Cmon, he’s from Mali. He’s at least 28

 

[levance2]

Offensive ORTG efficiency power rating by player per year



Toney

FR-95.3

SO-109

JR-110.4-best yet



Johnson

FR-98.4

SO-93

JR-117.30 best yet



Champ

FR-108

SO-117.5-best yet



Coulibaly

FR-88.8

SO-133.3-major improvement



Drumgoole

FR-61.9

SO-83-improvement but still bad to date





All 5 of those players have improved every year in the program under Capel. The only player that did NOT improve, but has regressed as of today is…



Trey Mcgowens

FR-99.5

SO-91.6

JR-89.1





Its almost amazing that this theory of Capel not being able to develop players is even being mentioned. The only player that hasn’t developed at all is Trey Mcgowens, who looks to be perhaps uncoachable at a completely new program with the same dumb mistakes he makes every game with his poor ORTG as a junior.

Its amazing too because the same people that were touting Mcgowens as this huge loss after playing Mcneese State have quickly gone quiet. To make matters even more ironic, Ithiel Horton has a better ORTG rating than Mcgowens right now with an ORTG of 89.2, and Horton has been the worst defender on the team in our rotation and simply not that good at all on offense, and he is still more efficient than Trey Mcgowens on offense.

I wont even get into our improved defense, which just held a team for 14 minutes straight without a single basket.

Toney and XJ have been starters their entire careers. You are quoting minimal results against weak teams for 2020. It remains to be seen if XJ will be any better this season than as a freshman.

Champagnie was definitely better at the end of last season than the start, but he was arguably our best player last year. I am not surprised about what he’s doing right now. He SHOULD be our best player.

None of what you posted represents the type of “great leap forward” we saw so frequently under Dixon. You wouldn’t see that (often) when recruiting better players, but so far we aren’t doing that either.

 

[Fsgolfdr]

People really love to believe the myth that Jamie Dixon didn't play sophomores and especially freshman, but that's just a myth. Not counting guys who actually played 10-12 minutes or less (so about double your 5-7 minute mark)

2004 - Sophomore Carl Krauser led the team in both scoring and minutes played (36 per game) and freshman Chris Taft played 26 minutes per game

2005 - Taft was still averaging 27 minutes a game, sophomore Aaron Gray was his backup at 12 minutes per game, sophomore Antonio Graves was playing 27 minutes a game, and freshman Ron Ramon played 26 minutes per game, and even sophomore Levon Kendall was playing 14 minutes a game

2006 - Freshman Sam Young played 20 mpg, sophomore Ron Ramon was at 25, sophomore Keith Benjamin was at 15, and freshman Levance Fields was at 22

2007 - Sophomore Sam Young was playing 17 mpg and sophomore Levance Fields was at 30

2008 - Some freshman named Blair was playing 26 mpg and freshman Gil Brown played 22

2009 - Blair played 27 mpg, Brown played 19, sophomore Brad Wannamaker played 19

2010 - Sophomore Ashton Gibbs played 35 mpg (most on the team), sophomore Naz Robinson played 25, freshman Travon Woodall played 20 and fellow freshman Dante Taylor played 14

2011 - Woodall was at 24 mpg, Taylor was at 15 and freshman Lamar Patterson was at 13

2012 - Patterson played 29, sophomore JJ Moore played 18, sophomore Talib Zanna played 19 and freshman John Johnson played 14

2013 - Freshman James Robinson played 27 mpg, freshman Steven Adams played 23 and sophomore Cam Wright played 15

2014 - Sophomore James Robinson played 31 mpg, sophomore Durand Johnson played 20, freshman Mike Young played 22, freshman Jamel Artis played 15 and freshman Josh Newkirk played 17

2015 - Sophomore Mike Young was at 32 mpg, sophomore Jamel Artis was also at 32, sophomore Josh Newkirk was at 21, sophomore Chris Jones was at 27, sophomore Sheldon Jeter was at 14, and freshman Cam Johnson was at 14 before he got hurt

2016 - There's your team that didn't play young guys. Sophomore Ryan Luther was the leader in minutes among the freshman and sophomores with 13 mpg

That's 13 seasons, 44 freshman or sophomore contributors of more than "spot duty", almost 3-1/2 per season. 26 of those guys, two per season, played at least 20 minutes per game and three more guys were at 19. Just a little different than the notion that "players coming in seldom saw the court their freshman yr and in most cases were only spot players their sophomore yrs.
[/QUOT

People really love to believe the myth that Jamie Dixon didn't play sophomores and especially freshman, but that's just a myth. Not counting guys who actually played 10-12 minutes or less (so about double your 5-7 minute mark)

2004 - Sophomore Carl Krauser led the team in both scoring and minutes played (36 per game) and freshman Chris Taft played 26 minutes per game

2005 - Taft was still averaging 27 minutes a game, sophomore Aaron Gray was his backup at 12 minutes per game, sophomore Antonio Graves was playing 27 minutes a game, and freshman Ron Ramon played 26 minutes per game, and even sophomore Levon Kendall was playing 14 minutes a game

2006 - Freshman Sam Young played 20 mpg, sophomore Ron Ramon was at 25, sophomore Keith Benjamin was at 15, and freshman Levance Fields was at 22

2007 - Sophomore Sam Young was playing 17 mpg and sophomore Levance Fields was at 30

2008 - Some freshman named Blair was playing 26 mpg and freshman Gil Brown played 22

2009 - Blair played 27 mpg, Brown played 19, sophomore Brad Wannamaker played 19

2010 - Sophomore Ashton Gibbs played 35 mpg (most on the team), sophomore Naz Robinson played 25, freshman Travon Woodall played 20 and fellow freshman Dante Taylor played 14

2011 - Woodall was at 24 mpg, Taylor was at 15 and freshman Lamar Patterson was at 13

2012 - Patterson played 29, sophomore JJ Moore played 18, sophomore Talib Zanna played 19 and freshman John Johnson played 14

2013 - Freshman James Robinson played 27 mpg, freshman Steven Adams played 23 and sophomore Cam Wright played 15

2014 - Sophomore James Robinson played 31 mpg, sophomore Durand Johnson played 20, freshman Mike Young played 22, freshman Jamel Artis played 15 and freshman Josh Newkirk played 17

2015 - Sophomore Mike Young was at 32 mpg, sophomore Jamel Artis was also at 32, sophomore Josh Newkirk was at 21, sophomore Chris Jones was at 27, sophomore Sheldon Jeter was at 14, and freshman Cam Johnson was at 14 before he got hurt

2016 - There's your team that didn't play young guys. Sophomore Ryan Luther was the leader in minutes among the freshman and sophomores with 13 mpg

That's 13 seasons, 44 freshman or sophomore contributors of more than "spot duty", almost 3-1/2 per season. 26 of those guys, two per season, played at least 20 minutes per game and three more guys were at 19. Just a little different than the notion that "players coming in seldom saw the court their freshman yr and in most cases were only spot players their sophomore yrs."

Of course there were freshman and sophomores who contributed to JDs teams . The players you mentioned were among the best who’ve ever played at Pitt with some of them going on to play in the NBA .

Some players saw more Pt than they should’ve due to circumstances. Aron Grey was the only other center on the team behind Chris Taft in 2005 and he wasn’t very good . Donte Taylor played as a freshman because there was no other size behind Gary McGhee .( Zanna was redshirted )

Several of those players sat out a yr before playing Carl K , I believe was academically ineligible, Woodall ,D Johnson Lamar Patterson and Zanna were all redshirted .

As an example in 2008 adding Blair , who’ve had impacted any team he joined , the roster had Fields ,Young , Dixon and Biggs .
2006 Fields and Young joined a roster that had Krauser , Grey & Graves

My point was that saying that Pitts current roster is experienced when it contains two jrs who started by default as freshman and have won 9 of 29 conference games and one sophomore is ludicrous. None of JDs teams had a returning core that weak that consisted of players with losing records . This is a young and inexperienced team relying on transfers and freshman to play vital roles . Until relying on such players is the exception Pitt will struggle to win .

 

[thirteenNINE]

Find me another starting lineup in the ACC with 100 games worth of ACC starting experience. Just one. Then your point makes sense.

Not that I care to participate in this argument but I couldn't let this factual inaccuracy go.

Georgia Tech (the most experienced P6 team in the country), Notre Dame, Boston College, Florida State, Virginia, and Clemson all meet that standard this year. Virginia Tech counts as well if you count Cartier Diarra's starts with Kansas State.

 

[4Mark_Marty]

Not that I care to participate in this argument but I couldn't let this factual inaccuracy go.

Georgia Tech (the most experienced P6 team in the country), Notre Dame, Boston College, Florida State, Virginia, and Clemson all meet that standard this year. Virginia Tech counts as well if you count Cartier Diarra's starts with Kansas State.

I figured as much, just didn’t want to do the research.

 

[sonofabit]

Careful Vader. Joe’s hard at work. Lol.

 

[BballinsiderfromPitt]

Not that I care to participate in this argument but I couldn't let this factual inaccuracy go.

Georgia Tech (the most experienced P6 team in the country), Notre Dame, Boston College, Florida State, Virginia, and Clemson all meet that standard this year. Virginia Tech counts as well if you count Cartier Diarra's starts with Kansas State.

So we’re the 7th oldest team in the ACC. Not young at all!

 

[thirteenNINE]

So we’re the 7th oldest team in the ACC. Not young at all!

We're sort of both, really. We're only the 297th most experienced team in the country but Johnson, Toney, and even Champagnie now have played a lot of high level basketball. Just based on typical experience improvement curves next year should really be our big breakthrough year if it's going to happen.

 

[BballinsiderfromPitt]

We're sort of both, really. We're only the 297th most experienced team in the country but Johnson, Toney, and even Champagnie now have played a lot of high level basketball. Just based on typical experience improvement curves next year should really be our big breakthrough year if it's going to happen.

Which is why making the tournament in year 4 without an heir apparent to XJ is a necessity

 

[FrogmoreZeke]

I think Brad Stevens can name his job if he ever decides to coach college basketball and why wouldn’t duke want him

If I were the Duke AD. Stevens would be my first call. He's already been with the Celts for a longer tenure than the average NBA coach which is only like 3 years. I can't even imagine what he would do with NBA experience at a place like Duke.

 

[BballinsiderfromPitt]

If I were the Duke AD. Stevens would be my first call. He's already been with the Celts for a longer tenure than the average NBA coach which is only like 3 years. I can't even imagine what he would do with NBA experience at a place like Duke.

They also have ties to the Celtics with Kara Lawson being their women’s coach.

seems like a no brainer