Actually it means exactly that. I know you can play golf but if you ever played with tour pros you’d suck relatively speaking. I can play a little bit. It’s rare that I suck relative to who I play with. But if I played with you I’d suck.
Horton
- Thread starter snaphook297
- Start date
That sounds reasonable.
Question: Was playing with Nike and Odukale different than playing with X and Toney?
Its not this simple.
For reference,
When Ithiel Horton steps onto the floor for the first time this year, observe how close his defender is to him all game long. Then compare that to the mile long distance Jeffress and Ezzy get every game from their defender because no team respects either player on offense and the players defending those players are more concerned with
1) trying to double or triple Hugley in the paint while loading up the paint
2) stopping Odukale from dribble penetration into the paint
And we will see how many teams try to pack it in with sagging zone defenses with Horton standing on the perimeter. This isnt just about Horton scoring. This is about overall offensive spacing on the entire floor.
Interesting question. I believe X and Femi are extremely similar so I would say very little difference on that end. As for Nike and Toney not a whole lot of similarities there. Toney offers a more complete game than Nike and could do more on offense than Nike. Having Toney in the lineup probably took some scoring burden off of Horton. Nike was more of a slasher who could hit an occasional 3. Honestly, considering the selfishness of X and to a certain extent Toney, it could explain why he had a soft start, as pretty much everyone deferred to these two. They were our best players, but, we all know the issues we had.
Anyway, I could probably discuss this 4 a while, but, in the end I would say the only difference between the two sets of players, is that in general I will say he felt more pressure to make shots when he was with Toney and X.
I didn’t say anything about his ability in any of these posts. His ability to go out there and hit 5 3’s one game is enough to draw attention away and help others in the games he didn’t.
I’m calling out the obvious bullshit excuse that he wasn’t confident. It’s the dumbest thing I’ve ever read.
I don’t think we’re really saying anything different. What I’m saying is that Horton’s raw statistical production alone might not add as much (even if you play Horton for all of Jeffress’ minutes, you’re ultimately looking at going from 5.5ppg to 10ppg), the real benefit will be in (1) how the points are scored and the locations on the court where they’re scored from, and (2) the impact that those points have on the rest of the offense and making other players better. This whole year was going to be about the team playing better than the sum of its parts, and I think Horton’s a good example of that.
I'm coming in at the end of this, but this team is better with Horton on the floor. Look how much better they were with Burton on the floor. Having two or three guys on the floor who can shoot and draw defensive attention absolutely opens up the spacing on the floor for Hugley and Femi. Not saying they are making the tournament and the competition does gets tougher. But they will have a better chance to win now for sure.
Another factor in exchanging Horton for Jeffress is defense. If Horton's defense is weaker than Jeffress then Horton's plusses in scoring and opening things up for Hugley could be negated or diminished. Pitt might score more points but give up the same or more additional points on the defensive side so that Horton's addition is a wash or worse.
We will just need to wait and see what actually happens.
The fact that some of the people who are "analyzing" this situation are completely forgetting this half of the equation is hilarious.
A guy who gets you 6 but only gives up 4 is helping you win. A guy who gets you 12 but gives up 15 is not.
Yeah, it will be nice if Horton is more consistent shooting the ball. It might be more important if he plays better when we don't have the ball.
Defense is obviously very important, especially for this group. I dont think anyone is ignoring defense, especially me.
But there is literally no one and I mean no one that currently thinks Jeffress or Ezzy is a better basketball player than Ithiel Horton overall and that includes the head basketball Coach who had Horton playing the 4th highest minute total on our entire team last year for most minutes played for the entire season. Ezzy averaged less than 5 minutes per game last year, which is where he should be headed the moment Horton starts playing games again.
Well maybe I didnt read it close enough then, lol.
Maybe Capel starts coaching in close games and calls timeout, you know? And maybe then he switches a defensive guy for a shooter or the other way around regardless how the game came to being a one-possession game. I see it in real
games on tv. Seems like games with good coaches take 20 minutes to play the last minute. Guess we’ll see what the added depth does soon.
Well of course he can. But it's not like defense only matters in the last couple minutes of the game. Playing crappy defense for 38 minutes then playing good defense in the last two minutes isn't really a recipe for this team to win games right now.
Horton's going to play 30 minutes a game (maybe not at first, but once he gets back into the swing of things). We need him to be better on the defensive end of the court than he was last year. If we get that plus a little bit more consistency on the offensive end then that will potentially make a real difference.
Can we stop pretending Jeffress is Julius Page on defense? He is a "minus" player. Period.
I tend to believe it considering it came directly from his mouth. It's not a conspiracy theory. He spoke on it many times last year and then leading into this year, he talked about how JB was helping him getting his head right. That's clearly something he struggles with.
If we don't wanna believe because there are guys out there who will shoot till the cows come home without making any, go ahead, but that's being awfully subjective.
So instead of probably being a bullshit excuse, it’s a confirmed 100 percent bullshit excuse.
Here’s what he could’ve said. “Some games I don’t shoot well, some games I do. I have to keep shooting.”
Lack of Confidence for a high volume shooter is one of the dumbest excuses we have seen on the lair. Especially when he hit 5 3’s in the 4th effing game of the season. If you can’t see through that for what it is…
did you listen to what he said?
he said he gets down on himself. He never believed he didn't belong. He never said he didn't know if he was good enough. He said he beats himself up when he keeps missing. He has shown zero tendency to stop shooting.
I can see exactly what he's talking about. He's not some timid kid out there afraid to shoot.
Gotcha. Let’s do a new C3PRTG for the games he had confidence vs the games he didn’t have confidence. We can also call this - the wank off bullshit stat.
I'm confused what you're trying to argue? that hoopers don't get down on themselves? no the kid isn't Kobe Bean who's confidence doesn't waver. Dear god man.
I do not believe a shooter who had his best game the 4th game of the season lacked confidence ever and all of a sudden got it. The prime example is Ryan Murphy who while a worse player had more confidence than he should ever have.
simply put, It’s bullshit. Anyone who argues otherwise is a simp. Last thing I’ll say on it.
No I am specifically referring to Vader picking arbitrary timelines of when he was and wasnt confident. You see, when he made shots he was confident, when he didn’t he wasn’t. Funny how that worked for Vader’s narrative.
He actually did. In fact, back in the preseason there was a Pitt media press conference where beat reporters asked him questions about the team and offseason and how the team was coming along before the season started. And Horton told everyone the biggest thing he needed to work on was his mental game and his confidence in the offseason. Jeff Capel said the exact same thing with regards to Horton lacking confidence last year.
This isnt something I made up. This is a player and a coach verbally saying it out loud.
Must've missed it. I thought it was along the lines of him getting down on himself for missing shots.
I stand corrected.
Lacking confidence as a shooter isn't ideal. I still think it was taken a different way. I get the idea of being down on yourself for missing shots, but actually not being confident? Half of my friends who are 5'10" with a non-existent vertical believe they can shoot lights out..
I wish he would have had a little less “confidence” when he was in the Southside. We’d probably have a few more wins and maybe I wouldn’t be such a debbie downer about Pitt bball
Haha exactly my point. I am not blaming it on Horton or Capel. I’m blaming it on Vader trying to fit a narrative that doesn’t need to be fit.
No. Horton said when he first started off playing after his 2 year break because of redshirt he wasnt even sure if he was good enough for this level (the acc). He said he was nervous when he was on the floor and it was leading to a lot of mistakes early on (bad shots, poor turnovers). His stats the first 5 games of the season were bad.
Whatever the case may be, that was then and this is now. We'll see what he does real soon.
some snips from an article (posted below).
These quotes are from the article, but he said them in a press conference preseason. I don't recall him every saying he lacked confidence. Not saying he didn't, but I don't remember and can't find anything about it.
“It’s been liberating,” Horton said. “I thank Jamarius (Burton, new teammate) for that. Jamarius has been a big influence for me. He told me ever since he’s been off of social media, he has a lot of time on his hands. I’m starting to notice I have a lot of time on my hands.
“I want to keep improving my jump shot, keep improving my bounce off the dribble, keep improving my overall IQ of the game,” he said.
“I’m able to control my emotions a lot better than I did last year. I got kicked out of the Notre Dame game last year. That was just a sign of immaturity in my mind. That’s what I really wanted to focus on in the offseason.”
triblive.com
These quotes are from the article, but he said them in a press conference preseason. I don't recall him every saying he lacked confidence. Not saying he didn't, but I don't remember and can't find anything about it.
“It’s been liberating,” Horton said. “I thank Jamarius (Burton, new teammate) for that. Jamarius has been a big influence for me. He told me ever since he’s been off of social media, he has a lot of time on his hands. I’m starting to notice I have a lot of time on my hands.
“I want to keep improving my jump shot, keep improving my bounce off the dribble, keep improving my overall IQ of the game,” he said.
“I’m able to control my emotions a lot better than I did last year. I got kicked out of the Notre Dame game last year. That was just a sign of immaturity in my mind. That’s what I really wanted to focus on in the offseason.”
Clicking off social media gives Pitt guard Ithiel Horton new outlook on 2021-22 season
Ithiel Horton could try 1,000 bad shots this season, but his better judgement will remain unquestioned because of a decision he made off the court. Horton, a returning junior guard for Pitt’s reconstructed basketball team, told reporters last week he has been off social media for the past two...
triblive.com
They better not suspend him if the charges get refiled. Let him play until the legal process plays out. Innocent until proven guilty. The Cal U of PA grad cop cant even manage to get his ass to show up, that's how "important" this case is.
What does it mean that at this point in the scheme of things, I would wholeheartedly embrace playing in the CBI?
I would be legitimately excited about the CBI. Heck, I'd rather attend CBI games than ACC games at this point since the ACC season is sort of a waste since we aren't playing for anything.
The CBI will take anyone willing to pay their fee and while I doubt Pitt would, I would love to see them potentially win a CBI and create just a tad bit of excitement going into next season. Also, I think its somewhat possible that a team like Pitt could get an NIT invite, even with a losing record due to Covid opt-outs. That would be fun.
