How would you recruit against Tony Bennett and Virginia?

[Sean Miller Fan]

Bennett is a great coach and UVa is winning a ton of games but man is that team ugly to watch. I could be way off here but I don't think their high-profile success is going to help them much in recruiting. By and large, winning isn't that important to today's generation. Well, its important, but not as important as getting to shoot a lot of shots and playing up-tempo.

Here's a bold prediction: Buzz Williams and Virginia Tech are going to recruit better (on paper) than Tony Bennett and Virginia. VT is a putrid basketball program. Words can't describe how bad it is. On the other hand, UVa has spent the last 2 years in the Top 5, playing in a sold-out arena on ESPN every night. But, Buzz is going to go in there and say "we push the ball and score points, Bennett's going to make you play defense." I'm not going to predict VT will win more games, hoewver, though I do feel Buzz is going to have a pretty good program there in a couple years.

This isn't to say they're are only going to be UVa vs VT recruiting battles, just that its kind of ashame that the crazy success that Bennett is having isn't going to mean that he's going to significantly better recruits.

Its hard for me to watch Virginia, and I have a funny feeling that opposing coaches are going to have a field day recruiting against that. But, maybe I'm wrong. Just my 2 cents.
This post was edited on 3/3 7:39 AM by Sean Miller Fan

 

[NTOP]

First of all....no prospective recruit would be allowed to read this board.

Then start rumors about Bennett's "dream job" at Wisky-Green Bay. Then show the kid pictures of the new football stadium on the banks of the Mon. Case closed.

 

[NCanton Panther]

Not commenting on what success Bennett and UVa may have recruiting wise going forward, but as far as you having a hard time watching UVa and calling it ugly basketball, I guess it's a matter of personal preference. For me, I think they are fantastic to watch because I haven't seen another team this year come close to playing defense like they do and it is a real joy watching how they get after it on the defensive end.

 

[DT_PITT]

I like to watch supurb execution ...

... regardless if it's on the offensive end or defensive end.

Virginia's defensive execution -- the switches, help, rotations, communication -- are among the best I've ever seen in College Basketball.

Like you, I think they are a real joy to watch.

 

[UPitt '89]

Re: I like to watch supurb execution ...

Originally posted by DT_PITT:
... regardless if it's on the offensive end or defensive end.

Virginia's defensive execution -- the switches, help, rotations, communication -- are among the best I've ever seen in College Basketball.

Like you, I think they are a real joy to watch.

Agreed 100%.


I'd go as far as to say that... with Anderson back... they're the best bet to knock off Kentucky. A game between Ketucky and Virginia, the two best defenses in college basketball, might end up with a 45-44 score..... but it would be a beautiful thing to watch for me.

Virginia's defense is what I *WISH* Pitt's defense was. Even our best defense, which I would argue was the 2004 team (not the 2003 team), pales in comparison to what Virginia does.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

Originally posted by NCanton Panther:

Not commenting on what success Bennett and UVa may have recruiting wise going forward, but as far as you having a hard time watching UVa and calling it ugly basketball, I guess it's a matter of personal preference. For me, I think they are fantastic to watch because I haven't seen another team this year come close to playing defense like they do and it is a real joy watching how they get after it on the defensive end.

I can appreciate the defense they play and they are fun to watch as a "one-off" random kind of a game. Similar to when ESPN televised that D3 game a few years ago of that team that scores like 150 pts/game or whatever. Its cool to see once or twice but, for me, though I can appreciate the defense they play, its hard to watch them repeatedly. The teams they're playing take 35 seconds just to be able to take a bad shot and UVa is almost as deliberate on their end. Its the closest thing we may ever see to 1930's/1940's no-shot clock low-scoring basketball.

Because of these reasons, I think Bennett is going to have a very difficult time recruiting which I think is ashame because these kids don't care about winning as much as they should. He's a great coach.
This post was edited on 3/3 9:01 AM by Sean Miller Fan

 

[UPitt '89]

Originally posted by Sean Miller Fan:

Originally posted by NCanton Panther:

Not commenting on what success Bennett and UVa may have recruiting wise going forward, but as far as you having a hard time watching UVa and calling it ugly basketball, I guess it's a matter of personal preference. For me, I think they are fantastic to watch because I haven't seen another team this year come close to playing defense like they do and it is a real joy watching how they get after it on the defensive end.

I can appreciate the defense they play and they are fun to watch as a "one-off" random kind of a game. Similar to when ESPN televised that D3 game a few years ago of that team that scores like 150 pts/game or whatever. Its cool to see once or twice but, for me, though I can appreciate the defense they play, its hard to watch them repeatedly. The teams they're playing take 35 seconds just to be able to take a bad shot and UVa is almost as deliberate on their end. Its the closest thing we may ever see to 1930's/1940's no-shot clock low-scoring basketball.

Because of these reasons, I think Bennett is going to have a very difficult time recruiting which I think is ashame because these kids don't care about winning as much as they should. He's a great coach.

This post was edited on 3/3 9:01 AM by Sean Miller Fan

Bennett, like Dixon, will beat your team of 4-stars with his team of 3-stars. Why? Because his team, like most of Jamie's teams, will most years have 22 and 23-year old redshirt players who understand the game going up against your 18 and 19-year old one-and-done players who have skills, but not smarts.

Bennett doesn't care if Buzz outrecruits him. Because Bennett's teams will out play Buzz's.

 

[Pittbaseball11]

It's probably worth noting that Bennett, like Brey at ND, is regarded as a guy who recruits heavily for his system rather than tailoring his system to his players and just going and getting the best guys possible.

 

[NTOP]

Agree, DT....I find it silly that only one "style" pleases folks.

If so, the NBA has more similarities than differences. That's why I like college sports, not so much the pros....except MLB.

 

[DT_PITT]

I dunno ...

... the 2003-2004 team was pretty incredible defensively too.

It would be hard for me to say that Virginia is better than they were. Both were really, really good.

 

[UPitt '89]

Re: I dunno ...

Originally posted by DT_PITT:
... the 2003-2004 team was pretty incredible defensively too.

It would be hard for me to say that Virginia is better than they were. Both were really, really good.

They were the best defensive team in Pitt history, no doubt.

But I've watched at least 10 Virginia games start to finish this season. And in my opinion, I put this Virginia defense as the best I've seen in 25 years of following college hoops.

 

[NCanton Panther]

Re: I dunno ...

Pitt's post defense back then may have been as good if not better but I'd have a hard time thinking our perimeter defense was as good as this current UVa team. UVa doesn't give much of a cushion to anyone. They tire me out just watching as it just brings back memories of how tiring and frustrating it was playing a team that was that relentless on D.

 

[thebadby2]

Agree--and that's the beauty of college basketball.....

there are so many more ways to skin a cat than there are in the NBA, which I find unwatchable.

SMF and the others who are critical of UVA's "win ugly" style seem to forget that Howland and Dixon built this program on "ugly" basketball--defense, rebounding, offensive efficiency. Pitt, UVA, Wisconsin, Michigan State (MSU typically has enough scoring talent that they play a little faster than the others--but the idea is the same--it all starts with tough man D and rebounding). We have been as hard to watch at times as anyone, slowing the game to a grind and contesting everything. That's how you compete and beat the big boys when you don't have the horses they do. Is it good enough to win it all? I think it would depend on the year and on having that one special player that can get you over the top, to go along with the kind of group UVA has now. Watching Wisconsin the other day, they are very similar to UVA, except they have that one special player in Kaminski. If they were healthy I think this could have been the year Bo Ball made it to the FF-- but losing Traveon Jackson is killer. Even if they get him back for the Dance, he can't be expected to be at 100%.

Bennett knows exactly what he's doing. Does anyone actually think UVA would be 28-1 and #2 in the country without that system, let alone playing over a month without their best offensive player? If UVA tried to run and gun with the better teams in the ACC and beyond, they'd just be another middle of the pack Power 5 program. As it is, I donl;t see them going all the way to the final without Anderson. Even with him, it would be difficult the way they play. But in the NCAA tournament, there comes a time when you need to be able to score against a team that defends as hard as you do, and with Anderson hurt, outside of Brogdon, they really don't have any scorers.

I get what SMF is saying, and there is a fine line between excellent
defense and horrible offense--it's sometimes hard to discern. I confess
that when two teams are turning the ball over repeatedly, nobody can get
a clean look at the basket, and the shot clock comes close to expiring
on every possession, I don't particularly enjoy watching that type of
game. I prefer to see two good teams slugging it out, playing hard, defending, rebounding, but making their shots Game in the mid 60s are a far cry aesthetically form games in the low 50s.

 

[DT_PITT]

I can certainly respect the case you are making*

*

 

[DT_PITT]

Julius was an incredible defender on the perimter ...

... as was Jaron. Carl was pretty good. But what made them excellent was how they worked together -- speed, rotaton, switches, help, etc. Dribble penetration was not an issue for that group at all.

Just an incredible defensive group.

Having said that, Virginia is superb as well, and I can certainly understand why one such as UPitt'89 is suggesting that they are better than Pitt was that year.

 

[cruzer]

If I were Jamie I'd keep it simple. I'd say "Bennett is basically me 7 years ago".

Cruzer

 

[PITTLAW]

Reply

You are also discounting the beauty of watching true offensive efficiency....which also makes it appear that they are playing "slower" than they really are. Hail to Pitt!

 

[NCanton Panther]

Definitely a lot of parallels being made between Pitt/Jamie and UVa/Bennett, both plus and minus:

1. Both play great defense.

2. Their style of play isn't conducive to a long run in the tourney, they'll exit as early as 2nd round or not much further. We've unfortunately had to experience those results with our Pitt team and many are predicting the same for UVa

3. They'll have a hard time drawing recruits because the elite BB players aren't interested in playing this style of play. Often cited in the past w/r to Jamie's recruiting shortfalls and now as a potential problem for Bennett as well.

I can somewhat understand #3. However, if there is/was ever a shortcoming to fault Jamie on, it has to be recruiting. I'm not expecting him to easily bring in any number of elite level recruits. However, back when we were one of the top dogs in the BE for a number of years running, it was a definite disappoint to see the number of reaches or projects that we had to settle for during that period.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

Originally posted by NCanton Panther:

I can somewhat understand #3. However, if there is/was ever a shortcoming to fault Jamie on, it has to be recruiting. I'm not expecting him to easily bring in any number of elite level recruits. However, back when we were one of the top dogs in the BE for a number of years running, it was a definite disappoint to see the number of reaches or projects that we had to settle for during that period.

UVa is us a decade ago. I think their fans are going to think that all this winning is going to elevate them to be able to recruit with Syr, Lou, OSU, Mich St, etc (nobody recruits with Duke or UNC). But, in reality, they are still going to be fighting with Pitt, NCSU, Miami, FSU, and VT for recruits and they're going to lose a lot of those battles. It wont matter much as Bennett's system will always win a lot of games but he's never going to go far in the tournament because his teams struggle to score (and I dont care what stat says they are the greatest offensive team ever).

I swear watching Virginia is like I'm watching the Twilight Zone. Its us!

 

[UPitt '89]

This year's Virginia team has something that Pitt in 2003 and 2004 didn't.

Anderson.

If he comes back healthy for the tournament, they *WILL* have that one offensive player who can elevate his game in crunch time.

Imagine the 2004 Panthers with 2009's Sam Young. That's what Virginia is with Anderson.

 

[Pittbaseball11]

I truly don't believe that their style of play is what will hurt them in March. Wisconsin, Florida, Michigan, Butler under Stevens, Wichita State all play(ed) at a very slow pace.

The issue is that playing slower evens the playing field. It leads to teams overachieving in the regular season and probably being overseeded in March. You can play that style, but you still need talent.

I think Pitt's been getting better with talent. They hit some bad luck (I think if Adams stays last year's team is the best Pitt has ever had) but if they can get back to the 2008-2010 system where they have a big year, a downish year with a bunch of sophomores and juniors, then a big year, then a down year, and so on....that's pretty good.

I really wouldn't discount UVA on the recruiting trail. They're in a strong basketball area, they are one of the truly elite schools in the country academically, and they have a true identity that they can use to sell kids on. And they're picky. So when they say you're a perfect fit, they aren't lying. It's not unlike Notre Dame, really.

I think that program is pretty well set under Bennett.

Tempo and style of play having an impact on recruiting is really overstated.

 

[meadvillecoach]

Toured hinkle field house last week. A basketball yistiry lesson for all hoop fans. One historical dact i read was austin carr scored 50 and collis temple 40 for notre dame vs. Butler. No 3 point shot. Those days offense ruled where did it go. Our all good players in the nba because people are not scoring the ball at all

 

[73CAV]

Originally posted by Sean Miller Fan:
Bennett is a great coach and UVa is winning a ton of games but man is that team ugly to watch. I could be way off here but I don't think their high-profile success is going to help them much in recruiting. By and large, winning isn't that important to today's generation. Well, its important, but not as important as getting to shoot a lot of shots and playing up-tempo.

Here's a bold prediction: Buzz Williams and Virginia Tech are going to recruit better (on paper) than Tony Bennett and Virginia. VT is a putrid basketball program. Words can't describe how bad it is. On the other hand, UVa has spent the last 2 years in the Top 5, playing in a sold-out arena on ESPN every night. But, Buzz is going to go in there and say "we push the ball and score points, Bennett's going to make you play defense." I'm not going to predict VT will win more games, hoewver, though I do feel Buzz is going to have a pretty good program there in a couple years.

This isn't to say they're are only going to be UVa vs VT recruiting battles, just that its kind of ashame that the crazy success that Bennett is having isn't going to mean that he's going to significantly better recruits.

Its hard for me to watch Virginia, and I have a funny feeling that opposing coaches are going to have a field day recruiting against that. But, maybe I'm wrong. Just my 2 cents.
This post was edited on 3/3 7:39 AM by Sean Miller Fan

On the other hand, recruiting at Virginia is progressing very nicely. While Bennett isn't attracting the super elite prep stars, he is beating the teams that have those recruits with the ones he does attract to Charlottesville. And while the McDonald's All Americans might want to play a different style of ball (2016 prospect Tyus Battle just scratched UVa from his list of suitors due to the style of play), I think a very convincing argument can be made that the 'one and done' type of player destabilizes a program more than he enhances it. Also, a team of Top 100 players, who stick around for four years, can achieve some pretty good success in the NCAA of the new millennium. FWIW, presumably Virginia only loses Atkins at the end of this year. Jarred Reuter appears to be a pretty decent replacement, and Virginia has two redshirts waiting to play. Jack Salt is a 6'10" New Zealander that signed last year, and 6'4" Tennessee transfer Darius Thompson will be eligible, too. Which brings us to the 2016 recruiting class. Since UVa loses five players (Brogdon, Anderson, Gill, Tobey, & Nolte) in '16, this will be a very, very important recruiting year, and Bennett is already off to a great start with three commitments (Tyus Jerome, Kyle Guy, and Sacha Killeya-Jones). And, finally, it is probable that Bennett won't have to depend on any of these kids to contribute immediately. He has been playing this year's frosh regularly, and, while their performances have been uneven at times, they are getting valuable experience and we've seen glimpses of real possibility. By the time that Wilkins, Hall, & Shayok (and, hopefully, Stith) are in their third year (and Perrantes in his fourth year), a decent transition can be accomplished. Slainte!!!

 

[Fredact]

And one and done's are likely a thing of the past, anyway. The big conferences will threaten to make freshman ineligible, and the NBA will relent and let them in, or require 2 years out of high school.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

Originally posted by 73CAV:

(2016 prospect Tyus Battle just scratched UVa from his list of suitors due to the style of play),

This is what I have a problem with. I don't know anything about this kid but I think "style of play" is really used against programs like Pitt and Virginia. For UVa it may not matter much because Bennett seems to be getting the kind of player he needs, but at Pitt, Dixon experimented by trying to go for more offense and getting guys like John Johnson, JJ Moore, etc and its backfired. It just makes me question today's younger generation more when some of these kids would sacrifice winning to shoot more (see Jon Severe).

 

[fishdude00]

UVA fan here.

1) Let's get this out of the way. If you don't like our style of play, change the channel. I could throw up a ton of stats (we have the most double digit wins in the ACC this year AND how we've doubled the score twice this year on ACC opponents). However, if you don't like how we win playing defense, then change the channel.

2) We know that only a certain type of player will commit to UVA. We probably won't see a lot of one and done players at UVA, but we're ok with that.

3) The types of players that do commit will have that blue collar work ethic.

4) 2015 - we have two red shirt players and one new freshman. We're keeping it hush, but next year's team could be even better than this year's team.

5) Our 2016 recruiting class is already talked about as being a top 10 class. We have zero worries about recruiting.


Just my opinions.

 

[Hoosfan35]

Recruiting is going just fine right now for UVa. We only had one scholarship to give in 2015 and signed 6-8 power forward Jarred Reuter from Brewster Academy. But we have five to give in 2016 if want to use them all and already have three commitments from four-star prospects and what 247Sports rates right now as the No. 1 class in 2016. Sure, it won't be the No. 1 class when all is said and done, but it's going to be a good one, probably the best Bennett's had. In particular, remember the names Kyle Guy and Sacha Killeya-Jones. They both have tremendous upside. We're also the favorite to land five-star PG Matt Coleman in the 2017 class. Most importantly though, regardless of rankings, Bennett is starting to get the top guys on his board, which has been fueled by success on the court.

 

[drunkinoakland]

Winning isnt important.... just shooting a lot and running uptempo.

Yeah, see Kentucky. Winning means nothing to those guys.
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[dooz3]

Dear Cav fan. please ignore the jerk calling himself seanmillerfan. He is a total clueless wghiner wh hasnothing intelligent to ever say. The fact he doesn;tlike your style demonstrates clearly how clueless he is because if you don;t want to win what do you want!!!!