this is a much better job of explaining what I have been trying to say for several years now. For the liberals on this site that really want to understand what Islam has done take a look at the link.
I am using fkthomas' info here because
- Thread starter Dallas Burgher
- Start date
Yes, by all means, when looking for objectivity.........
Always go to Allen West's web page! Too kooky right even for his conservative congressional district. Always a bastion of fair, unbiased opinion. Hilarious!
No one has answered the question, With all this browbeating, name calling, condemnation of Islam, what do you want to do with the second most prevalent religion in the world? Do you expect them to convert to Christianity? Do you want a war on that faith? Do you want to imprison, execute or deport peaceful American Muslims? Do you want to invade peaceful Muslim nations and kill or convert their citizens because their faith is tainted in your opinion?
Name calling won't kill a single terrorist, or assist in enlisting moderate Arab nations to supply ground troops to confront isil. Aside from making you all feel good about being Christian, what purpose is served trashing Islam?
Seriously, where are you going with this?
Always go to Allen West's web page! Too kooky right even for his conservative congressional district. Always a bastion of fair, unbiased opinion. Hilarious!
No one has answered the question, With all this browbeating, name calling, condemnation of Islam, what do you want to do with the second most prevalent religion in the world? Do you expect them to convert to Christianity? Do you want a war on that faith? Do you want to imprison, execute or deport peaceful American Muslims? Do you want to invade peaceful Muslim nations and kill or convert their citizens because their faith is tainted in your opinion?
Name calling won't kill a single terrorist, or assist in enlisting moderate Arab nations to supply ground troops to confront isil. Aside from making you all feel good about being Christian, what purpose is served trashing Islam?
Seriously, where are you going with this?
I think that video just confirms what many people believe. That Muslims are bad and Christians are good. No grey area. That is how it is in the minds of many people unable or unwilling to think for themselves. Bottom line... religion leads to conflict.
This post was edited on 2/12 11:19 AM by HailtoPitt
This post was edited on 2/12 11:19 AM by HailtoPitt
Re: Yes, by all means, when looking for objectivity.........
Most immigrants want to assimilate into American Culture, but given what we've seen in other countries where the Muslims have gotten a strong foothold, it seems like a pattern where it's only a matter of time before their lunatic fringe wants to control things - by any means possible.
Europe has begun to experience the effects, as have certain Asian nations...it's hard to blame Americans for taking a cautious approach and not bowing to the wishes of the followers of Islam (public foot-baths, etc.) in the name of Political Correctness.
Sure, some Americans will over-react. But I say - with regret - that some minor over-reaction might be much, much better than gross under-reaction ---- unless you don't mind your great-grandchildren living under Sharia Law.
From The Huffingtonpost.com
In fairness, one person's "trashing" is another person's "warning".
Most immigrants want to assimilate into American Culture, but given what we've seen in other countries where the Muslims have gotten a strong foothold, it seems like a pattern where it's only a matter of time before their lunatic fringe wants to control things - by any means possible.
Europe has begun to experience the effects, as have certain Asian nations...it's hard to blame Americans for taking a cautious approach and not bowing to the wishes of the followers of Islam (public foot-baths, etc.) in the name of Political Correctness.
Sure, some Americans will over-react. But I say - with regret - that some minor over-reaction might be much, much better than gross under-reaction ---- unless you don't mind your great-grandchildren living under Sharia Law.
From The Huffingtonpost.com
Re: Yes, by all means, when looking for objectivity.........
So don't pay attention to it due to where the video originated. I am not surprised at that type of response. Frankly, you ask what can be done about Islam, but when people like you fail to pay attention to history, and ignore all types of atrocities...well what can be done? Even worse, our President erroneously tries to equate Christianity to it. We are doomed. But let's put our efforts into the one true threat to this world, climate change.
Bury your head in the sand. It will be easier to do so when your neighborhood looks more like the Middle East.
Posted from Rivals Mobile
So don't pay attention to it due to where the video originated. I am not surprised at that type of response. Frankly, you ask what can be done about Islam, but when people like you fail to pay attention to history, and ignore all types of atrocities...well what can be done? Even worse, our President erroneously tries to equate Christianity to it. We are doomed. But let's put our efforts into the one true threat to this world, climate change.
Bury your head in the sand. It will be easier to do so when your neighborhood looks more like the Middle East.
Posted from Rivals Mobile
Re: Yes, by all means, when looking for objectivity.........
I didn't ignore the video, I watched it. So what about history am I not paying attention to? The Crusades and Inquisition and the conquest of the Americas is part of history too. Yet you seem to want to ignore that, right?
When can I expect my neighborhood look to like the Middle East? Bury my head in the sand? Think not, I see what is going on in the world. My question remains, what do you want to do about it?
You surely aren't actually equating the "threat" from isis to the threats posed by Nazi Germany, Imperial Japan, or Communist Russia? You think they're coming to conquer us? Where's their Navy to get here, where's their air force to control the skies, do they have missles that can reach the U.S.? Do they have tanks and effective artillery? Can they produce their own arms and ammunition? Get the point? Is this the new Red Scare? I remember in grade school we were all concerned about the Russians taking us over. That didn't quite work out, did it?
So what it comes down to, you like Christianity, good.....don't like Islam, bad. Fine, I get it. But aside from running your mouths about how primitive, evil, wicked, etc. it is, what do you propose to do?
As far as the United States goes, here's what Jefferson said about it:
"[N]o man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer, on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities."
These principles were incorporated into the First Amendment, which will get in the way of any persecution or suppression of the followers of Islam in this country. Unless of course you want to repeal it and establish your Christian state. But then you will have become that which you decry!
I didn't ignore the video, I watched it. So what about history am I not paying attention to? The Crusades and Inquisition and the conquest of the Americas is part of history too. Yet you seem to want to ignore that, right?
When can I expect my neighborhood look to like the Middle East? Bury my head in the sand? Think not, I see what is going on in the world. My question remains, what do you want to do about it?
You surely aren't actually equating the "threat" from isis to the threats posed by Nazi Germany, Imperial Japan, or Communist Russia? You think they're coming to conquer us? Where's their Navy to get here, where's their air force to control the skies, do they have missles that can reach the U.S.? Do they have tanks and effective artillery? Can they produce their own arms and ammunition? Get the point? Is this the new Red Scare? I remember in grade school we were all concerned about the Russians taking us over. That didn't quite work out, did it?
So what it comes down to, you like Christianity, good.....don't like Islam, bad. Fine, I get it. But aside from running your mouths about how primitive, evil, wicked, etc. it is, what do you propose to do?
As far as the United States goes, here's what Jefferson said about it:
"[N]o man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer, on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities."
These principles were incorporated into the First Amendment, which will get in the way of any persecution or suppression of the followers of Islam in this country. Unless of course you want to repeal it and establish your Christian state. But then you will have become that which you decry!
Re: Yes, by all means, when looking for objectivity.........
You lose a lot of credibility in any discussion about "rights" when you start quoting slave-owning Thomas Jefferson.
You lose a lot of credibility in any discussion about "rights" when you start quoting slave-owning Thomas Jefferson.
Re: Yes, by all means, when looking for objectivity.........
Well I guess that takes our Constitution and other founding documents out of the realm of the credible since a lot of the authors and signers held slaves.
Also, Jefferson was no fan of organized religion. So there's that, too.
Well I guess that takes our Constitution and other founding documents out of the realm of the credible since a lot of the authors and signers held slaves.
Also, Jefferson was no fan of organized religion. So there's that, too.
Re: Good questions.
I will try to answer them one at a time.
Do you expect them to convert to Christianity? No
Do you want a war on that faith? No
Do you want to imprison, execute or deport peaceful American Muslims? No if they have not been convicted of a crime.
Do you want to invade peaceful Muslim nations and kill or convert their citizens because their faith is tainted in your opinion? No.
I would like to stop the political correctness and challenge Muslims to take a stand against the terrorists in their faith. Lets tell the truth about Islam and that much of its growth is is result of violence against others.
I will try to answer them one at a time.
Do you expect them to convert to Christianity? No
Do you want a war on that faith? No
Do you want to imprison, execute or deport peaceful American Muslims? No if they have not been convicted of a crime.
Do you want to invade peaceful Muslim nations and kill or convert their citizens because their faith is tainted in your opinion? No.
I would like to stop the political correctness and challenge Muslims to take a stand against the terrorists in their faith. Lets tell the truth about Islam and that much of its growth is is result of violence against others.
Re: Yes, by all means, when looking for objectivity.........
And there are several good wineries in that vicinity, too. The missus & I have been trying to take advantage of Pitt's joining the ACC, and to this point, the road trips have been worth the effort - even if the football games haven't always been pleasurable.
Just as an aside - have you ever been to Monticello? We combined a Monticello tour with going to see Pitt-Virginia this past season. It's really worth visiting.Originally posted by FreeportPanther:
Well I guess that takes our Constitution and other founding documents out of the realm of the credible since a lot of the authors and signers held slaves.
Also, Jefferson was no fan of organized religion. So there's that, too.
And there are several good wineries in that vicinity, too. The missus & I have been trying to take advantage of Pitt's joining the ACC, and to this point, the road trips have been worth the effort - even if the football games haven't always been pleasurable.
Re: Yes, by all means, when looking for objectivity.........
Yes, Parrothead,
Several years ago, my wife and I did the UVA road trip. Made a long weekend out of it and drove down the Skyline Drive, toured a cavern which was pretty cool, and did Monticello and the Winery thing.
Monticello was very interesting. Jefferson was quirky to say the least, and the whole slave thing is very puzzling, but he was a thinker and a bit of a flake all at the same time.
We went to the winery at lunch time, thinking we could have a nice meal and taste some of the wine. We went on a tour, and got a great education on why the wine industry ended up there and how wine is made, BUT there was a group outing there and the restaurant was closed! We were starved, and a bit tipsy from sampling wine on an empty stomach. Ended up searching high and low for a place to eat. Ended up at a classic Red-neck diner in rural Va. Food was simple but pretty good.
Of course Pitt lost the game in a blowout. Pretty weird how the Hoo's linked arms and sang after every score.
Yes, Parrothead,
Several years ago, my wife and I did the UVA road trip. Made a long weekend out of it and drove down the Skyline Drive, toured a cavern which was pretty cool, and did Monticello and the Winery thing.
Monticello was very interesting. Jefferson was quirky to say the least, and the whole slave thing is very puzzling, but he was a thinker and a bit of a flake all at the same time.
We went to the winery at lunch time, thinking we could have a nice meal and taste some of the wine. We went on a tour, and got a great education on why the wine industry ended up there and how wine is made, BUT there was a group outing there and the restaurant was closed! We were starved, and a bit tipsy from sampling wine on an empty stomach. Ended up searching high and low for a place to eat. Ended up at a classic Red-neck diner in rural Va. Food was simple but pretty good.
Of course Pitt lost the game in a blowout. Pretty weird how the Hoo's linked arms and sang after every score.
Re: Good questions.
Well, I think that's exactly what we're trying to do with Jordan, UAE, Turkey and Egypt right now. Also looking for other moderate Sunni nations, ie Saudi Arabia and Iraq to take a stand and confront and destroy isis on the ground.
When you start talking about the "truth" about Islam, you're hopping on a slippery slope. Remember that the perspective through THEIR eyes may be quite different than yours. I think that is what the President was getting at in the prayer breakfast. While we can criticize aggression and mistreatment done by them in the name of their faith, they can point to Christianity and make some of the same arguments. Besides, they hold their faith as closely as Christians hold theirs, and no one likes to be "preached" to from an attitude of superiority.
Best to keep religion out of it, and deal with the political reality. Stomping out these jackals is in everyone's best interest and when they're dead and gone it won't matter if it was done in the name of God, or because it just made political sense.
Well, I think that's exactly what we're trying to do with Jordan, UAE, Turkey and Egypt right now. Also looking for other moderate Sunni nations, ie Saudi Arabia and Iraq to take a stand and confront and destroy isis on the ground.
When you start talking about the "truth" about Islam, you're hopping on a slippery slope. Remember that the perspective through THEIR eyes may be quite different than yours. I think that is what the President was getting at in the prayer breakfast. While we can criticize aggression and mistreatment done by them in the name of their faith, they can point to Christianity and make some of the same arguments. Besides, they hold their faith as closely as Christians hold theirs, and no one likes to be "preached" to from an attitude of superiority.
Best to keep religion out of it, and deal with the political reality. Stomping out these jackals is in everyone's best interest and when they're dead and gone it won't matter if it was done in the name of God, or because it just made political sense.
Re: Yes, by all means, when looking for objectivity.........
I mentioned it in a post-game post, noting that I was even a bit envious of how well organized that their entire gameday experience is - and got gored in the process by a couple posters who apparently thought my complimenting the VA fans made me "anti-Pitt".
The one thing that I found to be funny was seeing the everyday attire of the VA students. The "dress shorts with long-sleeved, button-down collared shirts" -look was very non-Pitt. What is that style - "prep"? Ivy League? Who knows? But a lot of the guys were wearing it.....
Yeah, I actually came back impressed with their overall school spirit...very organized in their cheering. I got tired of hearing that same song over & over...comparable to hearing the Notre Dame Fight Song repetitiously. If I was playing against them, I think it would motivate me to play harder - just so that I didn't have to hear those songs!
I mentioned it in a post-game post, noting that I was even a bit envious of how well organized that their entire gameday experience is - and got gored in the process by a couple posters who apparently thought my complimenting the VA fans made me "anti-Pitt".
The one thing that I found to be funny was seeing the everyday attire of the VA students. The "dress shorts with long-sleeved, button-down collared shirts" -look was very non-Pitt. What is that style - "prep"? Ivy League? Who knows? But a lot of the guys were wearing it.....
Re: Yes, by all means, when looking for objectivity.........
Certainly not Anti-Pitt, but it does point out the difference between an urban campus and one in a relatively rural area.
Charlottesville and the surrounding area are a lot like State College and Central PA. This is the only game in town, and it is the largest University in the VA. There are no distractions or competition for sports loyalty. The students are all bought into the experience, and it stays with them after they graduate.
Pitt students have never bought in to that extent, and there is much competition for the "casual" fan dollar in the Burgh. Would be nice if we could get closer to that, but I'd never dress like a "preppy", that's a bridge too far for me!
Certainly not Anti-Pitt, but it does point out the difference between an urban campus and one in a relatively rural area.
Charlottesville and the surrounding area are a lot like State College and Central PA. This is the only game in town, and it is the largest University in the VA. There are no distractions or competition for sports loyalty. The students are all bought into the experience, and it stays with them after they graduate.
Pitt students have never bought in to that extent, and there is much competition for the "casual" fan dollar in the Burgh. Would be nice if we could get closer to that, but I'd never dress like a "preppy", that's a bridge too far for me!
Re: Good questions.
I'm no fan of neocons like Allen West, or Zionists, period, but this video does a good job, as far as it goes[/B]. Remember, you're trying to convince liberals. Liberals have a difficult time distinguishing between using a gun in self defense versus using a gun to commit a crime. That's why they say stuff like "Best to keep religion out of it, and deal with the political reality". I don't even think they really have a difficult time distinguishing the difference between self defense and aggression, or jihad and crusades, it's that once they admit to the difference, they lose their argument.
I don't give Freeport and other libs a pass for refusing to admit to the problematic tenets of Islam, e.g. jihad, sharia law, Dhimmis, etc. But I don't give you and other conservatives a pass for pushing neocon propaganda either. Our allies, Saudi Arabia and other Sunni nations, along with the Israelis, SUPPORT Al CIAda, ISIL, ISIS, the Muslim Brotherhood or whatever flavor of the day these terrorist groups choose to go by. No, you don't want a war on that faith. You just want to use that faith as an excuse to wage war on every nation in the Middle East who dares oppose US economic interests. So let's list these questions and answers again, only more accurately:
Do you expect them to convert to Christianity? No, we just expect them to submit to American's real religion, the petrodollar.
Do you want a war on that faith? No, we want a war on anyone who opposes US policy
Do you want to imprison, execute or deport peaceful American Muslims? No if they have not been convicted of a crime.
Do you want to invade peaceful Muslim nations and kill or convert their citizens because their energy and trade policies are tainted, in your opinion? Yes.
I'm no fan of neocons like Allen West, or Zionists, period, but this video does a good job, as far as it goes[/B]. Remember, you're trying to convince liberals. Liberals have a difficult time distinguishing between using a gun in self defense versus using a gun to commit a crime. That's why they say stuff like "Best to keep religion out of it, and deal with the political reality". I don't even think they really have a difficult time distinguishing the difference between self defense and aggression, or jihad and crusades, it's that once they admit to the difference, they lose their argument.
I don't give Freeport and other libs a pass for refusing to admit to the problematic tenets of Islam, e.g. jihad, sharia law, Dhimmis, etc. But I don't give you and other conservatives a pass for pushing neocon propaganda either. Our allies, Saudi Arabia and other Sunni nations, along with the Israelis, SUPPORT Al CIAda, ISIL, ISIS, the Muslim Brotherhood or whatever flavor of the day these terrorist groups choose to go by. No, you don't want a war on that faith. You just want to use that faith as an excuse to wage war on every nation in the Middle East who dares oppose US economic interests. So let's list these questions and answers again, only more accurately:
Do you expect them to convert to Christianity? No, we just expect them to submit to American's real religion, the petrodollar.
Do you want a war on that faith? No, we want a war on anyone who opposes US policy
Do you want to imprison, execute or deport peaceful American Muslims? No if they have not been convicted of a crime.
Do you want to invade peaceful Muslim nations and kill or convert their citizens because their energy and trade policies are tainted, in your opinion? Yes.
This lib has no problem calling a spade a spade...
The difference is I don't want to engage offensively with our military to confront potential terrorists.
You can keep killing the bees...but the hive will keep reforming somewhere else.
I believe its rather unwise for our government to focus strictly on the religion aspect...as its against the basic tenets of our government.
This post was edited on 2/13 9:45 AM by SoufOaklin4Life
The difference is I don't want to engage offensively with our military to confront potential terrorists.
You can keep killing the bees...but the hive will keep reforming somewhere else.
I believe its rather unwise for our government to focus strictly on the religion aspect...as its against the basic tenets of our government.
This post was edited on 2/13 9:45 AM by SoufOaklin4Life
Re: Good questions.
We're getting closer to common ground, believe it or not.
It isn't the American Government's or it's Armed Forces job to reform the tenets of Islam. It isn't my job either since I'm no fan of any organized religion. That's why I say keep religion out of it. We'll get more buy in from the "moderate" Arab countries in the region if we take that approach.
I'm all for killing the bad guys, period. The world would be a better place without isis, or any other group or individual whose main policy is conquest and killing. Whether they use a religious tenet to justify their actions, or a political one, or some hybrid of each, it is immaterial. Eliminate them because they are dangerous and a threat to American citizens.
Now, when are we going to wise up and quit being the nanny/enforcer/security blanket for everyone on the globe? We already fulfill that role for Germany, Japan, South Korea, Israel, France and most countries of the middle East. Why do we continue to be suckered into blowing tons our our national treasure and the lives of our young people to essentially defend others?
Why must we always take the hit for this? BPKY would say petro dollars rules the day here. Maybe it is the Industrial Military complex who likes the 500 plus billion $$$ of tax money poured into the defense industry while we're on a perpetual war footing. Liberals and Conservatives should be able to agree to stop this lunacy!
We're getting closer to common ground, believe it or not.
It isn't the American Government's or it's Armed Forces job to reform the tenets of Islam. It isn't my job either since I'm no fan of any organized religion. That's why I say keep religion out of it. We'll get more buy in from the "moderate" Arab countries in the region if we take that approach.
I'm all for killing the bad guys, period. The world would be a better place without isis, or any other group or individual whose main policy is conquest and killing. Whether they use a religious tenet to justify their actions, or a political one, or some hybrid of each, it is immaterial. Eliminate them because they are dangerous and a threat to American citizens.
Now, when are we going to wise up and quit being the nanny/enforcer/security blanket for everyone on the globe? We already fulfill that role for Germany, Japan, South Korea, Israel, France and most countries of the middle East. Why do we continue to be suckered into blowing tons our our national treasure and the lives of our young people to essentially defend others?
Why must we always take the hit for this? BPKY would say petro dollars rules the day here. Maybe it is the Industrial Military complex who likes the 500 plus billion $$$ of tax money poured into the defense industry while we're on a perpetual war footing. Liberals and Conservatives should be able to agree to stop this lunacy!
Re: Good questions.
Whether you realize it or not, you're pursuing the same goal that the neocons are. You endorse going over there and killing terrorist groups. Or am I wrong?
The first and most important question is: Are they a threat to American citizens? And along with that you need to answer why they are a threat and how they are a threat and who are the threat. You have to answer all these questions before you can justify sending American kids over there to die and kill. You have to answer all these questions before you can identify where to send American kids to die and kill.
You mentioned lunacy. That's what infuriates me so much. Americans just know some folks from the middle east attacked us, so somebody gotta pay! When did America collectively transform into mindless WWF fans?
If terrorists didn't attack us due to religion, we should have attacked Saudi Arabia, because the alleged 911 hijackers virtually all were Saudis. If they attacked us because of a religious tenet, everyone who holds to that tenet is the enemy. Our willful ignorance is allowing the neocons/neolibs to manipulate us. The only way to stop this, IMO, is to stop falling for the patriotic slogans and define the enemy, define the cause, and define the goal. They WANT YOU to see "them" as the "bad guys". That want you thinking on that simplistic of a level. Let's stop and think a little harder.
Or, we can just keep spending money blowing up the middle east. I'd rather fix the bridges.
Whether you realize it or not, you're pursuing the same goal that the neocons are. You endorse going over there and killing terrorist groups. Or am I wrong?
The first and most important question is: Are they a threat to American citizens? And along with that you need to answer why they are a threat and how they are a threat and who are the threat. You have to answer all these questions before you can justify sending American kids over there to die and kill. You have to answer all these questions before you can identify where to send American kids to die and kill.
You mentioned lunacy. That's what infuriates me so much. Americans just know some folks from the middle east attacked us, so somebody gotta pay! When did America collectively transform into mindless WWF fans?
If terrorists didn't attack us due to religion, we should have attacked Saudi Arabia, because the alleged 911 hijackers virtually all were Saudis. If they attacked us because of a religious tenet, everyone who holds to that tenet is the enemy. Our willful ignorance is allowing the neocons/neolibs to manipulate us. The only way to stop this, IMO, is to stop falling for the patriotic slogans and define the enemy, define the cause, and define the goal. They WANT YOU to see "them" as the "bad guys". That want you thinking on that simplistic of a level. Let's stop and think a little harder.
Or, we can just keep spending money blowing up the middle east. I'd rather fix the bridges.
Re: This simple truth of this matter is that
the presentation is historical fact. It is what it is and we should learn from it in dealing with people with this radical ideological bent in the future.
the presentation is historical fact. It is what it is and we should learn from it in dealing with people with this radical ideological bent in the future.
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