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I just love watching the Tennessee offense in action and...

Throwing the ball out of condensed formations can be extremely aggressive and effective. Having an 8-9 man box means nothing vs condensed formations. Based off the personnel you can have a minimum of 3 vertical threats with a maximum of 4. Those 3-4 DB's cannot fall asleep and just play the run. If they do, it can be 6 in a blink of an eye. Go and watch some Army or Navy football. Their receivers are very pedestrian but they usually have out of the ordinary YPC #'s especially when they're a good team. Their YPC goes through the roof when they operate out of those condensed formations. This strategy is very stressful for a DC.

By utilizing those condensed formations -

1. We get more #'s at the point of attack then the defense has to defend.
2. We get to play cat and mouse vs the secondary. They want to make tackles to negate the #'s advantage? Cool - we can let them do that and take shots.
3. You can get WR's blocking safeties instead of corners. Corners don't like tackling 215lb RB's all night long.

From what I see our problem is not scheme at all. It's purely a talent situation. We aren't great on the OL. Slovis is very inconsistent. The WR's don't really scare anyone.

One of things that goes unnoticed is Cigs usually requires everyone to know the scheme. If you're an X, you better know Z. If you're an Y you better know fullback. This creates the multiplicity that DC's hate because you aren't relying on personnel and showing your hand. I bet if you asked Dorin Dickerson about Cigs' strengths it's his ability to do this. However, it takes time to learn. You don't have to run as much scheme because you can get matchups. This is pro-style offense. You have a slow SLB? When Cigs is rolling, he's going to find a way to exploit that. He can call a familiar play but get an offensive player matched up with that kid. Canada was good at this too. Anyone wonder why he had the big fullback lined up at WR split wide vs. Clemson? Because he was getting his playmakers on lesser athletic players. Good stuff indeed.
Good post. Thanks. I understand that in theory the offense is great, but I've seen enough. Since you mentioned Dickerson, Cigs was the OC for that 2009 Pitt team Dickerson was on which had 5 of the 11 first team all conference offense, including Lewis and Baldwin. There wasn't a talent issue, yet they came in third place and, if memory serves, that offense wasn't even in the top 50 for total yardage.

The problem with the GT game wasn't using the condensed formation... It was his continued use of it even though it wasn't working. Especially on first and second downs. If the condensed formation is threatening, then why did he go away from it in third and longs against GT?
 
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Good post. Thanks. I understand that in theory the offense is great, but I've seen enough. Since you mentioned Dickerson, Cigs was the OC for that 2009 Pitt team Dickerson was on which had 5 of the 11 first team all conference offense, including Lewis and Baldwin. There wasn't a talent issue, yet they came in third place and, if memory serves, that offense wasn't even in the top 50 for total yardage.

The problem with the GT game wasn't using the condensed formation... It was his continued use of it even though it wasn't working. Especially on first and second downs. If the condensed formation is threatening, then why did he go away from it in third and longs against GT?

I don't know about yardage, but Pitt averaged 32.1 pts per game in '09. Tied for 21st with Alabama.
 
The problem with the GT game wasn't using the condensed formation... It was his continued use of it even though it wasn't working. Especially on first and second downs. If the condensed formation is threatening, then why did he go away from it in third and longs against GT?

Condensed formations are great on short to midrange downs. Utilizing it on 1st and 2nd down isn't a radical idea. Utilizing condensed formations on 3rd and long probably isn't too wise. 3rd and long is obviously a passing down. You aren't looking to run power or inside zone on 3rd and 10.

Score
Time on the clock
Personnel available
Defensive scheme

are all factors why coaches do what they do. They don't call anything in a vacuum.
 
Doesn't matter. When everyone is lined up near the ball, and no WRs are out wide, it probably isn't going to work. But if it doesn't work, at least try something else. What's the point of brining in the top ranked transfer QB if you are going to do that?
Of course it matters. You're arguing about stuff you don't have a basic understanding about. The reason teams want to throw out of the bunch is precisely because all the defenders are packed together.

Spreading out WRs wasn't working either. Bad QB play, drops, penalties, and fumbles are what got them in the hole. When they spread them out early they couldn't block GT and/or the QB held the ball too long. I suggest you rewatch the game and actually pay attention to what you're looking at.
 
Usually bad losses are what haunt coaches. I think Duz may actually be haunted by some his WINS, particularly ones where he felt the offense was too free willing, as if he thinks the opponent still wouldn’t have put up huge scores in a 77-61 game (as an example) if only we could have just slowed our offense down to a crawl.

Can there be doubt that he is far more disgusted by the 44-41 loss (forgive of that wasn’t the exact score) to WMU last year than by the 26-21 slog fest to GT this season. He likely thinks the GT game went pretty much just fine overall other than the pesky result.

It’s not even so much an insult, I like the guy a great deal, I love his personality for our (unique, even bizarre) situation in this town and in the pecking order of the sport. I even wish his preferred style could work, I’m an old yinzer and I respect the line ‘em up and grind ‘em out ethos of football history in this region. I just think his own hang up on this particular issue is regrettable, especially in years like 2017 and this one, when he should have jumped on the successes of the previous campaign and the momentum (totally centered on the offense in both); and taken those models further, hired dynamic OC to replace the departed ones in each, and thrown in behind that, rather than the retrenching he did in each. It almost ensures 7 win wastes of time seasons that, worse, attract no fans.
 
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Condensed formations are great on short to midrange downs. Utilizing it on 1st and 2nd down isn't a radical idea. Utilizing condensed formations on 3rd and long probably isn't too wise. 3rd and long is obviously a passing down. You aren't looking to run power or inside zone on 3rd and 10.

Score
Time on the clock
Personnel available
Defensive scheme

are all factors why coaches do what they do. They don't call anything in a vacuum.
It is a good way to help out a limited QB. The defense can't disguise as much against heavy sets, so what you see is what you get normally. Cleveland did this with Mayfield the last few years. Run 3 TE sets and give him easy play action shots. It doesn't work so well when you can't block though.
 
Of course it matters. You're arguing about stuff you don't have a basic understanding about. The reason teams want to throw out of the bunch is precisely because all the defenders are packed together.

Spreading out WRs wasn't working either. Bad QB play, drops, penalties, and fumbles are what got them in the hole. When they spread them out early they couldn't block GT and/or the QB held the ball too long. I suggest you rewatch the game and actually pay attention to what you're looking at.

Sure it worked. In the GT game, what drives worked? When they spread out the offense. What didn't work? When they were not spread out. Yet Cignetti kept trying. It was maddening.
 
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It is a good way to help out a limited QB. The defense can't disguise as much against heavy sets, so what you see is what you get normally. Cleveland did this with Mayfield the last few years. Run 3 TE sets and give him easy play action shots. It doesn't work so well when you can't block though.

The OL seems to block better when not in those heavy sets, or when they are balanced and not running them on every first and second down.
 
Condensed formations are great on short to midrange downs. Utilizing it on 1st and 2nd down isn't a radical idea. Utilizing condensed formations on 3rd and long probably isn't too wise. 3rd and long is obviously a passing down. You aren't looking to run power or inside zone on 3rd and 10.

Score
Time on the clock
Personnel available
Defensive scheme

are all factors why coaches do what they do. They don't call anything in a vacuum.

See, I don't get this. It's college football. Pitt shouldn't be trying to slowly drive the ball down the field. If anything, Pitt has showed great success in recruiting RBs and WRs. We don't need this these condensed or power formations, that seem to put a greater emphasis on good OL play, which is probably Pitt's biggest weakness on the recruiting front.

I mean, how many highly recruited WRs will want to consider playing in an offense that is often focused on short and midrange formations on first and second down?
 
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Sure it worked. In the GT game, what drives worked? When they spread out the offense. What didn't work? When they were not spread out. Yet Cignetti kept trying. It was maddening.
You're being thick dude, and your memory is wrong. Rewatch the game and pay attention.
 
They have the #3 player in the country coming in to play QB. Bought him with NIL money.

I'm sure they'll also bring in a transfer to compete with him.
Oh, they’ll bring in players. But until someone does it, they haven’t done it. Hooker wasn’t great last year, and he was a JR. A new QB running that offense at that speed with no game experience will be interesting to observe.
 
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See, I don't get this. It's college football. Pitt shouldn't be trying to slowly drive the ball down the field. If anything, Pitt has showed great success in recruiting RBs and WRs. We don't need this these condensed or power formations, that seem to put a greater emphasis on good OL play, which is probably Pitt's biggest weakness on the recruiting front.

I mean, how many highly recruited WRs will want to consider playing in an offense that is often focused on short and midrange formations on first and second down?



Those condensed sets have nothing to do with OL play.

PITT can run any offense they want. No kid is coming here that has committable offers from any of the blue bloods on a consistent basis. Stop with that rhetoric. Walt Harris' offense was known as "strike force". He landed 2 - 4 star WR's who were pretty big name recruits in Fitz and Brockenbroro. Prince wasn't even coming here if he didn't blow his knee out. The rest of those WR's who put up prolific #'s were 1-2-3 star players.
 
Those condensed sets have nothing to do with OL play.

PITT can run any offense they want. No kid is coming here that has committable offers from any of the blue bloods on a consistent basis. Stop with that rhetoric. Walt Harris' offense was known as "strike force". He landed 2 - 4 star WR's who were pretty big name recruits in Fitz and Brockenbroro. Prince wasn't even coming here if he didn't blow his knee out. The rest of those WR's who put up prolific #'s were 1-2-3 star players.

We are trying to build a program so that Pitt can start averaging better than three stars every year. I don't see recruiting improving with this offense.
 
why don't we just be straightforward . Narduzzi is a dinosaur about offense and Cignetti will do what pat tells him to do. boring football to rest his defense.
 
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We are trying to build a program so that Pitt can start averaging better than three stars every year. I don't see recruiting improving with this offense.
Who are the schools north of the Mason-Dixon line who are consistently landing 4 star athletes and above?

OSU?

Michigan?

PSU - sometimes?
 
Who are the schools north of the Mason-Dixon line who are consistently landing 4 star athletes and above?

OSU?

Michigan?

PSU - sometimes?

How about we try to get get to 3.3 average? That's good enough for a top 25 class every year. Unfortunately, Pitt is still averaging about 3.0 stars, all the more reason to run an offense that can get it done.
 
How about we try to get get to 3.3 average? That's good enough for a top 25 class every year. Unfortunately, Pitt is still averaging about 3.0 stars, all the more reason to run an offense that can get it done.

😂

That's not how any of this works. Texas A&M didn't sign a historically strong recruiting class because they have great offense.
 
See, I don't get this. It's college football. Pitt shouldn't be trying to slowly drive the ball down the field. If anything, Pitt has showed great success in recruiting RBs and WRs. We don't need this these condensed or power formations, that seem to put a greater emphasis on good OL play, which is probably Pitt's biggest weakness on the recruiting front.

I mean, how many highly recruited WRs will want to consider playing in an offense that is often focused on short and midrange formations on first and second down?
EXACTLY!!! The elite college football programs do not win a majority of their games scoring 21 or points. They go out there and put up 40+ points even against a good team like Alabama and Tennessee just did.
 
I personally would like to see HCPN try to match up w a Huepell type scheme, but the teeth nashing over not doing so is fairly over blown.
 
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I have been screaming about wanting this type of OC, since Narduzzi was hired, but he is part of the Jurassic Age when it comes to Modern Day Offensive College Football. Cignetti just being the latest of his OC Hires to run an Old Pro Style of Offense. This is why, unlike a lot of others here, I did not criticize Addison for transferring to U$C, as he was around for Spring Practice and saw what type of Offense Cignetti was installing. Of Course, I also do not blame Addison, as he also is playing with a Great QB with Williams, who is much better than Slovis. Also, he got a sweet NIL Deal with United Airlines. Anyone here who I had read in past posts, wishing bad things for Addison, are hypocrites, as I bet if he was their Son or Brother, they would also have backed him in transferring to U$C for the reasons I mentioned here. I am thankful that he helped PITT win the ACC last year, and also provided them with another Belitnikoff Award Winner. I hope he recovers quickly from his injury in the Utah Game and has a Great NFL Career(hopefully for my Raiders, although I am hoping they can draft Caleb Williams in 2024, if they are close to having a Top 3 Pick, although they probably have enough Talent to not finish near the bottom of the NFL next year, and was just too stupid to not mark Kelce the 4 Times he scored in the Red Zone last Monday Nite versus the Chiefs).

The main reason I wanted PITT to run an Uptempo RPO Offense, is that it also helps negate the Lower Average of Recruits they can get(mostly 3 Stars) compared to the Big Money Programs. You just need to get the right QB, who can efficiently run this type of Offense, and Hooker does it well for Tennessee, who still recruits better than PITT, if not yet at the level of Alabama, Georgia and tOSU. Now Michigan recruits well enough on the Offensive Line to run the ball well like they did against Ped State today, but PITT is never going to recruit those Dominant Offensive Linemen ever again, as the 1980s are not coming back.

Of course, PITT did try this Uptempo RPO Offense by hiring Godd Graham, which had me excited, although was not happy about hiring a Coach bringing Bible Study Group Sessions into the Program like he did at Tulsa, as I am Agnostic, and did not like the idea of Players maybe feeling pressured to participate in fear of losing Playing Time(if Talent is equal among Players), as despite having the Cathedral of Learning, PITT is not a Religious School.

The Football Problem with Graham though is he came into a Program where he did not have such of s QB(and other Players), to implement his System right away, and he bolted after only 1 Year(apparently having conflict with the AD, Pederson, like others had within the Athletic Department). Of course, Graham failed at Arizona State and Hawaii, so apparently he was not a Good Head Coach anyways, but that does not mean an Uptempo RPO System cannot work, even if having Narduzzi as the Head Coach, and having him adapt and find a Good OC to implement that type of Offense.

One Side Note-I was surprised that Whipple had Pickett run a few RPO Plays last year, as figured he was stuck in his Old Ways of just running a Pro Style Offense, so although not Uptempo, at least he implemented a few RPO Plays to keep Defenses Off Balance at times. I was still glad Whipple left, but just was not happy that Narduzzi did not take the opportunity to bring the PITT Offense into the Current Times, and seek out an OC, who as you suggested, runs an Offense similar to Heupel. Honestly, I thought Tennessee was going to beat PITT by 18-25 Points this year, and surprised that PITT did a decent job against their Offense, as in the game last year at Tennessee, if their Starting QB(Milton?) would not have overthrown 3 Wide Open Receivers in the 1st Quarter, it would have been a long day and most likely a loss. I recall when PITT hired Narduzzi and he stayed at Michigan State to coach their Defense in their Bowl Game, that Baylor using an Uptempo RPO Offense put up a lot of Points in that game, which had me concerned that PITT was just hiring another FAT 10 Stone Age Football Coach, although think that Michigan State did somehow made a comeback to win that Bowl Game.

Even the Nictator after complaining about the Uptempo Offenses around 2012 and wanted to try and have the Rules changed(think it was Mississippi being the last SEC Team to beat Bama 2 consecutive years with the Nictator as the HC, and they ran an Uptempo RPO Offense), as Bama could no longer win 17-10 type Games, so the Nictator finally adapted and figured out if you can’t beat them, then join them(I wish Narduzzi would also see the light). He hired Kiffin, who actually had no background running an Uptempo RPO Offense, but he learned and implemented it, and Bama started recruiting Top QBs and WRs. Bama really beat themselves yesterday versus Tennessee though because they had 17 Penalties, which they still almost overcame, but they missed a Long FG late in the 4th Quarter, providing Tennessee about 30 Seconds left to get into FG Range with 1 TO they still had available to use. Still 17 Penalties is the most ever by a Bama Team, since the Nictator started coaching there(2007?).
I hate to read books. Anybody have cliff notes for this novel?
 
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I personally would like to see HCPN try to match up w a Huepell type scheme, but the teeth nashing over not doing so is fairly over blown.
I think a Narduzzi coached team with that offensive scheme would be a disaster waiting to happen. It might work for another coach at Pitt at some point, but I dont think it would be sustainable and I think it would probably end badly.

That scheme takes its toll on the defense. (Tennessee's is ranked somewhere below 100) and inevitably, as with every program and every offense, you eventually end up with a QB that can't execute. And at programs that can't bring in top talent, especially at QB it becomes almost impossible to mask at that point. That's pretty much what happened with Dino Babers at SU with DeVito. The book isn't shut on Dino yet, but at a lot of schools, he would have been canned already.

For people that talk about how it allowed Baylor to become relevant under Briles at Baylor, they also conveniently leave out how he was able to recruit some top Texas talent to Waco by cheating his ass off.
 
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How much longer are we going to throw kudos at the Nictator for "adapting offensively" and admit that his defense flat out sucks compared to what it once was?

Not to take anything away from Tennessee, but they aren't that good. That was the same Vols team Pitt took to OT. How many times do we need to see Alabama's defense simply wilt at crunch time, especially on the road? How many mediocre performances does it take?

Also, can we dispel the myth that this type of offense somehow enables you to put bad teams away and results in fewer close games. Since last year, Bama has had close games against TN, Texas A&M (twice) Auburn, Arkansas, LSU, Texas and Florida. They simply struggle to put mediocre teams away. Nobody fears Alabama.
This is a wildly awful take
 
Pitt doesn't run an offense from the 80s. They run a modern college offense just like everybody else. Unfortunately, Pitt just has no talent at WR and a QB that is slow of foot.

BTW, did you see both Tennessee & Alabama attempt any old school I formation yesterday? Yes. Yes you did.
Maybe not from the 80’s, but it is an offensive that went out of style 20 years ago.

Again your takes are wildly awful.
 
true, but a good defense, heck even a serviceable defense in 2016 and we have a rematch with Clemson in Charlotte. And it was an excellent offense in 2016
Correct, if that team had a mediocre defense we are possibly looking at the potential of 11-1 heading into the title game and a playoff spot on the line.

Again though the overall point is that when Pitt has had offenses that are good, it’s been narduzzi’s two best teams. A bad defense is easier to overcome than a bad offense.
 
No doubt you want good units on both sides. But our 2019 team was almost the exact inverse of our 2016 team, and there's no way in hell the former would have ever knocked off two top 5 teams.

I also tend to think we could have masked some of our 2016 defense's flaws if we used guys a little smarter. Maddox and Lewis looked better in the NFL than they did on that team. I think we go at least 9-3 or 10-2 if Narduzzi would have relented a bit on the scheme. Although that's a different topic altogether.
Your second paragraph…it’s ALWAYS driven me insane. We watched those guys here and frankly thought they sucked, but it was mainly leaving them in really impossible situations. The VT game that year was a great example…watching I think ford and Bucky Hodges just run go routes on us all night
 
I don't know about yardage, but Pitt averaged 32.1 pts per game in '09. Tied for 21st with Alabama.
47th in yards per game, so to me that indicates a lot of it being defense setting up short fields. We also came out got in a lot of games then cooled like Cincy game
 
You can still call conservative/bad pass plays. Another wildly bad take in here for you

Okay. Specifically, which plays of the first 9 we're conservative plays?

You are aware that you can call aggressive/bad pass plays as well? That would be a more accurate description of the first 3 series vs GaTech.

On the first possession, 1st play they were looking for a home run ball, Slovis checked down to Wayne running a drag and got hit as he threw. 2nd play, was a throw to the middle of the field for 1st down yardage that was dropped (Bradley). 3rd down, was much like 2nd down play that GT blew up.

How do you define something as conservative if the QB ends up checking down? Go back and look at it for yourself. It looked like aggressive play calling with piss poor execution.
 
How much longer are we going to throw kudos at the Nictator for "adapting offensively" and admit that his defense flat out sucks compared to what it once was?

Not to take anything away from Tennessee, but they aren't that good. That was the same Vols team Pitt took to OT. How many times do we need to see Alabama's defense simply wilt at crunch time, especially on the road? How many mediocre performances does it take?

Also, can we dispel the myth that this type of offense somehow enables you to put bad teams away and results in fewer close games. Since last year, Bama has had close games against TN, Texas A&M (twice) Auburn, Arkansas, LSU, Texas and Florida. They simply struggle to put mediocre teams away. Nobody fears Alabama.

Tennessee IS that good. They are a much better team than the one that beat Pitt. As their confidence grows, so do the magnitude of wins. They beat a ranked Florida team after Pitt (who they had beaten once in 16 years), throttled a ranked LSU team AT LSU 40-13, and then beat Bama for the first time since 2006. Pitt held Tennessee to their lowest yardage output of the season by far. Since then Tennessee has gotten much better. Before this weekends game Alabama had the #1 statistical defense in the country. Now after Tennessee keeps putting up points on these defenses, they suddenly are considered "awful defenses" after the games.
 
Tennessee IS that good. They are a much better team than the one that beat Pitt. As their confidence grows, so do the magnitude of wins. They beat a ranked Florida team after Pitt (who they had beaten once in 16 years), throttled a ranked LSU team AT LSU 40-13, and then beat Bama for the first time since 2006. Pitt held Tennessee to their lowest yardage output of the season by far. Since then Tennessee has gotten much better. Before this weekends game Alabama had the #1 statistical defense in the country. Now after Tennessee keeps putting up points on these defenses, they suddenly are considered "awful defenses" after the games.
No, they aren't. They are pretty much the same team that played at Pitt. Tennessee is a veteran team. They are what they are. Had Pitt let Hendon Hooker throw as unimpeded as Alabama did on Saturday, the Vols would have put 50 or 60 up on the Panthers. Going back to last year, it's fairly obvious that Bama isn't that good. Bryce Young masks a lot of weaknesses. The 2021 & 2022 level of Alabama football is just significantly below what the standard has been since Saban got that thing rolling back in 2009. All that said, I think Bama probably wins if there is a rematch in Atlanta. I think you will see major changes in the way Bama approaches defending the Vols.

Florida & LSU aren't very good. And relative to what those programs have been in recent past, they flat out suck. Florida's defense might actually be worse than Tennessee's. Anthony Richardson is electric as a runner, but very raw as a passer. LSU's is playing with MAC level talent on the offensive line.
 
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