In what order would you rank Pitt's post-Dorsett RB's, and how?

[pittpitt]

This is so tough to do with college RB's because the good ones might only have 1 great season (Heyward), whereas another might have 3 pretty good seasons (Graham). In what order would you rank Pitt's best RB's since TD, and on what criteria. Considerations that will skew these rankings between posters include a) How do you view their peaks vs. their values over time? and b) How do you view their talent vs. their production (ex: Martin vs. West)? Rank as many of the following as you feel makes sense.

Here are the top candidates in chronological order and the general categories their seasons fall into:
Tony Dorsett (for reference): 3 monster seasons, 1 good season
Randy McMillan: 2 good seasons
Criag Heyward: 1 monster season, 1 decent season, 1 eh season
Curvin Richards: 2 very good seasons, 1 eh season
Curtis Martin: 1 good season, 1 decent season, 2 eh seasons
Billy West: 1 great season, 1 decent season, 3 eh seasons
Lesean McCoy: 1 monster season, 1 great season
Dion Lewis: 1 monster season, 1 good season
Ray Graham: 3 good seasons, 1 eh season
James Conner: 1 monster season, 1 good season

eh = not enough playing time for the season to really matter in this type of discussion

 

[geeman2001]

It's hard for sure ... anyone who saw Curtis Martin in the sparse action he had, particulary the Texas game (year, I forget) ... knew he was something special. I never saw Gale Sayers but older guys sitting around me at the time made the comparo often.

Yet he was so up and down with somewhat questionable injuries, and on such "eh" teams, he suffers.

But frankly he remains one of the top 5 I was lucky to have seen play in person.

 

[pittpitt]

anyone who saw Curtis Martin in the sparse action he had, particulary the Texas game (year, I forget)

1994. It was the first game of my freshman year.

 

[Jpripper88]

McCoy is #2 to me. McCoy was the entire offense both years. I consider his two years, the two best since Tony D, too, despite some other guys having a few more yards, TDs, or better averages.

 

[PITTsburghFAN]

Where's Tim Coliciccio?

More seriously, Charles Gladman was outstanding (PSU's Shane Conlin called him the best runner he ever faced in college). Brian Washington woulda/coulda. Elliot Walker played in the NFL... so did Adam Walker (49'ers... quite good pro).

Pitt has had one helluva lot of great runners

 

[usf2pitt]

Dion lewis had the most impressive season in my eyes his freshman year so he gets my nod as tops. Shady is the best back talent wise; hard to say he is better than an nfl hofer, but i think his pitt career was more impressive. Ray Graham may have been the best of them all but for an injury-- he is a what ould have been.... Dion Lewis just had that spark; most exciting player I watched in years.

 

[Slick Manager of Champs]

Kevin Barlow was also quite good. If he had the work ethic would have been all-pro.

 

[Smithmu12]

No Larod Stevens-Howling Jr. or Ray Graham? I loved Graham. That being said, if go with Shady

 

[9nationalchampionships]

Swervin Curvin.

 

[pittpitt]

Kevin Barlow was also quite good. If he had the work ethic would have been all-pro.

I went to grad school at Pitt with a woman who was married to a player during the time Barlow was there, so she traveled with the team and was able to be around the guys more than other students. She said Kevan was as anti-team/coach/everything as a player could be. The one story I remember is that the team was gathered together about to board buses to go to a game, and Walt Harris told the guys to make sure their dress shirts were tucked in. Barlow immediately untucked his shirt.

 

[geeman2001]

I guess I didn't really fulfill the thread intent. Here's how I'd rank:

1. Curtis Martin
2. LeSean McCoy
3. Craig Heyward
4. Randy MacMillan (unsung player)
5. Dion Lewis / Ray Graham (tie)

Could add after that, Curvin, Billy West, Bryan Thomas, Charles Gladman, James Connor (assuming he's not coming back, or he could end up higher)

Bonus -- Most potential, unfulfilled:
1. Brian Davis
2. Dustin Pisciotti
3. Connor, if truly done

Disappointing underachievers/slackers/quitters I had high hopes for that were dashed:
1. Sharif Harris
2. Chuck Scales (to be fair, they dicked him around various positions)
3. Rashad Jennings
4. Marlon McIntyre
5. Could add Eugene Napoleon and AB Brown for defecting to wvu, but the depth chart was huge

 

[Black_Man_Panther]

Gladman, like Curvin Richards had fumblitis. Big time.

Where's Tim Coliciccio?

More seriously, Charles Gladman was outstanding (PSU's Shane Conlin called him the best runner he ever faced in college). Brian Washington woulda/coulda. Elliot Walker played in the NFL... so did Adam Walker (49'ers... quite good pro).

Pitt has had one helluva lot of great runners

 

[Black_Man_Panther]

You probably could add Joe McCall somewhere in the list. Of course... like Gladman, Richards, et.al. he suffered from fumblitis.

I guess I didn't really fulfill the thread intent. Here's how I'd rank:

1. Curtis Martin
2. LeSean McCoy
3. Craig Heyward
4. Randy MacMillan (unsung player)
5. Dion Lewis / Ray Graham (tie)

Could add after that, Curvin, Billy West, Bryan Thomas, Charles Gladman, James Connor (assuming he's not coming back, or he could end up higher)

Bonus -- Most potential, unfulfilled:
1. Brian Davis
2. Dustin Pisciotti
3. Connor, if truly done

Disappointing underachievers/slackers/quitters I had high hopes for that were dashed:
1. Sharif Harris
2. Chuck Scales (to be fair, they dicked him around various positions)
3. Rashad Jennings
4. Marlon McIntyre
5. Could add Eugene Napoleon and AB Brown for defecting to wvu, but the depth chart was huge

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Ranking them strictly on their Pitt careers, not NFL.
Behind and since TD?

1. Ironhead
2. Shady
3. Curvin
4. Curtis
5. Dion
6. Graham
7. Conner
8. Barlow
9. Gladman
10. Billy West/Bryan Thomas

Oh shoot, forgot Randy McMillan. Egads. Where to put him? Maybe at 8.

 

[phxpanther]

Don't put James in the category of Brian Davis and Piccotti. James was ACC player of the year, set the Pitt single season record for TDs.

The other two basically accomplished ZERO here

I guess I didn't really fulfill the thread intent. Here's how I'd rank:

1. Curtis Martin
2. LeSean McCoy
3. Craig Heyward
4. Randy MacMillan (unsung player)
5. Dion Lewis / Ray Graham (tie)

Could add after that, Curvin, Billy West, Bryan Thomas, Charles Gladman, James Connor (assuming he's not coming back, or he could end up higher)

Bonus -- Most potential, unfulfilled:
1. Brian Davis
2. Dustin Pisciotti
3. Connor, if truly done

Disappointing underachievers/slackers/quitters I had high hopes for that were dashed:
1. Sharif Harris
2. Chuck Scales (to be fair, they dicked him around various positions)
3. Rashad Jennings
4. Marlon McIntyre
5. Could add Eugene Napoleon and AB Brown for defecting to wvu, but the depth chart was huge

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

I would rate them AS PITT PANTHERS thusly:
1. LeSean McCoy -
He just carried Pitt's offense. We were horrible at quarterback and he basically single-handedly led us to some of the greatest wins we've had in the past 30 years. I have nothing but respect for Shady. A great college football player.

2. Craig Heyward -
I think you had to see Ironhead play to fully appreciate how good he was. He was like an angrier, more athletic version of the Bus.

3. Curtis Martin -
Martin was always hurt at Pitt. However, when he was healthy, his talent was as unmistakable as it was breathtaking. He played on some terrible football teams but he was outstanding...when he played.

4. James Conner -
I initially thought that Conner was a product of the Chryst system. However, the more I watched him play, I realized I was wrong. He is much more than a system running back and he is a better athlete than I realized. I think he's going to be a pretty good pro.

5. Dion Lewis -
Dion is another guy who gets overlooked but he was outstanding in his brief time at Pitt. Dion was avmuch stronger runner than he was given credit for and he was very patient runner too. He could play for my team any day.

6. Curvin Richards -
Swervin' Curvin is another guy that tends to get overlooked but he was very good here. He was a very smooth runner who was as patient a running back as I have ever seen at Pitt. The legitimate knock on him though was that he was at times fumble prone.

7. Randy McMillan -
You know you are deep at running back whenever the No. 7 guy on your list was a first round draft choice. Randy McMillan was a fullback. However, the position was different then than it is now. Big Mac Attack he was an extremely agile big guy with phenomenal hands. I think he was a JUCO. He probably could be rated higher on this list but I just can't bring myself to do it.

8. Charles Gladman -
Gladman came in at the same time as Ironhead and was the more heralded of the two coming in. Gladman was big and smooth and fast – he reminded some people of Marcus Allen. He was often injured and fumble prone. However, when he was holding onto the ball and staying healthy he was very good.

Unfortunately for Chuck, the Lloyd Bloom/Norby Walters scandal did him in at the same time it did in Cris Carter at Ohio State.

9. Ray Graham -
Ray Graham is another one that people tend to overlook. He was always a step slow and he was never going to be a good pro – knee injury or no knee injury.

However, Graham was as agile as they come and an extremely deceptive runner.

10. Kevan Barlow -
Barlow is a perfect example of a guy with a million dollar body and ten cent head. I hated the way he approached the game. However, his physical talent was undeniable. If he had an ounce of common sense he would've had a long, successful professional career. He was extremely talented.

Others: Nick Goings, Joe McCall, LaRod Stephens-Howling, Bryan Thomas, Billy West

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

To hell with it. Replace Barlow with West. He was a terrific college RB who didn't shut down when times got tough. Make West No. 10 on my list.

 

[geeman2001]

Don't put James in the category of Brian Davis and Piccotti. James was ACC player of the year, set the Pitt single season record for TDs.

The other two basically accomplished ZERO here

I didn't mean it negatively; it was disappointment over his injury. It was slim chance but with a really monster year and a fair number of wins, he could have been in the Heisman talk.

 

[CaptainSidneyReilly]

COLLEGE FOOTBALL CAREERS
Tony Dorsett (for reference): 3 monster seasons, 1 good season
Marshall Goldberg Heisman Runner Up 1937
Lesean McCoy: 1 monster season, 1 great season
James Conner: 1 monster season, 1 good season
Craig Heyward: 1 monster season, 1 decent season, 1 eh season
Randy McMillan: 2 good seasons
Curtis Martin: 1 good season, 1 decent season, 2 eh seasons
Curvin Richards: 2 very good seasons, 1 eh season
Billy West: 1 great season, 1 decent season, 3 eh seasons
Ray Graham: 3 good seasons, 1 eh season
Dion Lewis: 1 monster season, 1 good season
Tom Davies, 1918-20
George McLaren, 1917-18
Gilbert "Gibby" Welch, 1927
Toby Uansa, 1929
Andy Hastings, 1916
Thomas Parkinson, 1929
Rushel Shell

NCAA HISTORY RUNNING BACK LINK:
http://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/leaders/rush-yds-player-career.html

NFL CAREERS
Curtis Martin
Tony Dorsett
Lesean McCoy
Marshall Goldberg 6 NFL Pro Bowls
Craig Heyward
Kevan Barlow
Randy McMillan
Curvin Richards
Paul Martha
Dion Lewis
Billy West:
Ray Graham
James Conner Soon!
Rushel Shell Maybe!

Pitt is only Program with 2 Top Ten NFL Running Backs Yardage
TOPS IN NFL HISTORY
ACC 1. Pitt Curtis Martin 4TH & Tony Dorsett 8TH 26,840 yards
SEC 2. Florida Emmitt Smith 1st & Fred Taylor 29,895 yards
B12 3. OKSU Barry Sanders 3rd & Thurman Thomas 27343 yards
ACC 4. ND Jerome Bettis 6th & Ricky Waters 24,305 yds
P12 5. USC Marcus Allen & OJ Simpson 23479 yds
NPC 6. Jackson St Walter Payton 2ND & Wil Montgomery 23,515 yds
ACC 7. Miami-FL Edgerin James & OJ Anderson 22,519 yds
ACC 8. Syracuse Jim Brown 9TH & Larry Csonka 20,393 yds

HISTORY NFL RUNNING BACKS YARDAGE LINK OVER 200 LISTED:
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/rush_yds_career.htm

 

[colingrant2]

Shell, woulda, coulda, shoulda

 

[geeman2001]

Shell was never with us. He was against us almost from the beginning. Which is why I disregarded him compared to someone like Rashad Jennings, who had a bit more legit reason why he didn't stay.

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

Shell could've played all four years here and he would not of cracked my top 10 list.

He. Is. Not. That. Good.

 

[Pghfan]

Shady and Dion leaving after only 2 years, really hurts their cause for this argument. I mean in this day and age, Dorsett never stays 4 years.. If Dorsett leaves even after 3 years and Shady stays another year or even Lewis, is it crazy to think you could compare the two? OK, maybe a bit of a stretch, especially with Lewis but if Shady comes back and puts up the numbers Dion did, that gives Shady 4600 yards in 3 seasons. That is Dorsett-like production. Is it crazy to think Shady could have put up same numbers as Dion did? I don't think so.. And let's not sel Dion short, if he sticks around in '11, would it be crazy to expect 1200 yards from him? Ray got 1000 in that offense, lets say Dion does a tad better. That's 4,000 yards in 3 seasons. Again, pretty sick numbers..

 

[CaptainSidneyReilly]

Shell, woulda, coulda, shoulda

Well, he did play some at Pitt so I put him in but agree with you more, he couldn't, shouldn't and wouldn't be consider as a top Running back at Pitt due to his own choices and misjudgments but still wish him well!

 

[CaptainSidneyReilly]

Shady and Dion leaving after only 2 years, really hurts their cause for this argument. I mean in this day and age, Dorsett never stays 4 years.. If Dorsett leaves even after 3 years and Shady stays another year or even Lewis, is it crazy to think you could compare the two? OK, maybe a bit of a stretch, especially with Lewis but if Shady comes back and puts up the numbers Dion did, that gives Shady 4600 yards in 3 seasons. That is Dorsett-like production. Is it crazy to think Shady could have put up same numbers as Dion did? I don't think so.. And let's not sel Dion short, if he sticks around in '11, would it be crazy to expect 1200 yards from him? Ray got 1000 in that offense, lets say Dion does a tad better. That's 4,000 yards in 3 seasons. Again, pretty sick numbers..

Exactly right, to be fair there are categories between 3 and 4 Years Running Backs Era and then there are the 2 to 3 and then 1 to 2 Years Running Backs and why I added NFL Running!

My reality of measuring a any Running Back is not what he he did in College but also how he did in the NFL as true measure of his true abilities and performances and I would add High School for that matter.

My Favorites are:
Tony Dorsett, James Connor, Shady McCoy, Curtis Martin and Marshall Goldberg, and Craig Heyward! I was able to see 5 of them and they were all terrific!

All the rest are very good too and put their hearts into the game for the Team and Pitt!

 

[geeman2001]

Exactly right, to be fair there are categories between 3 and 4 Years Running Backs Era and then there are the 2 to 3 and then 1 to 2 Years Running Backs and why I added NFL Running!

My reality of measuring a any Running Back is not what he he did in College but also how he did in the NFL as true measure of his true abilities and performances and I would add High School for that matter.

My Favorites are:
Tony Dorsett, James Connor, Shady McCoy, Curtis Martin and Marshall Goldberg, and Craig Heyward! I was able to see 5 of them and they were all terrific!

All the rest are very good too and put their hearts into the game for the Team and Pitt!

Being able to see all of those guys play is pretty amazing to comprehend. I'm getting geezered up myself but I only became aware of Pitt (and spectator sports in general) about the years when Hugh Green was playing (which is why he remains my fav Panther). I know Dorsett only through the 3 or 4 grainy clips that are regularly shown and his days with the Cowboys in the NFL.

As far as the dilemma of comparing 4 year guys with 2 year guys, I think I'm pretty logical in trying to extrapolate details and compare on apples to apples basis. But I'll say this, I hate it. It's anti-American, anti-human rights, everything you want to curse it with, but I still despise that college players can leave early, and that pro players can leave the teams they start with. Logically I know it's the right thing and it's almost always in the star player's best interest (note I say STAR player, not delusional gibrones like Greg Lee). But it always leaves a sour taste when someone does that to "my" team. It might take some kind of lobotomy to get over that but it never fades for me.

 

[pittpitt]

Many posters made good points about ranking guys with short careers vs. longer ones, but when I look at who I'd rank as the top RB's after Dorsett, they all had 1-2 year careers through the lense of good-to-elite production. So...

1a. McCoy - great talent that seamlessly became great NFL talent, 2 great seasons as lone offensive weapon
1b. Martin (see below)
3. Conner - phenomenal power/burst blend resulting in legendary season
4. Lewis - good talent with elite speed & cutting, 1 great season & 1 good season
5. Heyward - very good talent with 1 exceptional season (Heisman finalist, 1st round pick)
6. Richards - good overall talent (4th round pick), 2 very good seasons (1 as lone weapon)

The ones I have trouble ranking are Curtis Martin and Randy McMillan. Martin had the most talent of all these guys (obviously in a very different way than McCoy), but he was often injured and his college production was never impressive (to a large degree because of his awful surrounding cast). If I could have Martin's college talent or McCoy's college talent on a team today (so with the same OL and surrounding talent), I'm not sure who I pick because I immediately think Martin, but his injuries make me unsure. As for McMillan, I never saw him play and don't understand how he's talked about so reverently with an 800-yard season and a 700-yard season while Marino was his QB.

If I'm making an all-time Pitt team and don't have infinite RB slots, I pick McCoy, Martin, and Conner as my backups to Dorsett. Martin and McCoy might both be frustrating at times (injuries, could lose yards while going for the homerun) but their talent sets are both elite, and Conner brings a different dimension without much of a talent drop-off. Am I crazy leaving Heyward out of the top-4? I'm picking Conner just over him as the power back, and I feel the talent of both Martin & McCoy is clearly superior even with their deficiencies. I placed Lewis above Heyward because Lewis's 2nd best season was better than Heyward's (1061, 4.8, 13 vs. 756, 4.4, 8) and his yards/carry smoke Ironhead's (5.3 vs. 4.5).

 

[geeman2001]

As for McMillan, I never saw him play and don't understand how he's talked about so reverently with an 800-yard season and a 700-yard season while Marino was his QB.

.

MacMillan was kind of like Connor in that he was big yet still pretty fast, ran with swagger, could make you miss but if needed be, run you over like a truck. The yinzers in us love that kind of back. In a Wanny or Chryst offense, he would be every bit of Connor and then some, would have put up monster numbers. But the run set up the big-play pass in those years in that offense (his QB was a bit more accomplished, as you might recall). Also, somewhat like the Shell/Graham configuration 3 years back, RM split time with "scat backs" such as Rooster Jones and Joe McCall. Anyway, probably has been made more of a legend than he likely deserves, but like I said, we're suckers for big, fast, hardass backs.

 

[Panther Parrothead]

Randy McMillan will always have a place in the hearts of Pitt fans because he had a game where he ran all over the Nits. That alone will get him extra special recognition.

He also had six years in the NFL, which is no small feat for a running back.

 

[wbrpanther]

Shady and Dion leaving after only 2 years, really hurts their cause for this argument. I mean in this day and age, Dorsett never stays 4 years.. If Dorsett leaves even after 3 years and Shady stays another year or even Lewis, is it crazy to think you could compare the two? OK, maybe a bit of a stretch, especially with Lewis but if Shady comes back and puts up the numbers Dion did, that gives Shady 4600 yards in 3 seasons. That is Dorsett-like production. Is it crazy to think Shady could have put up same numbers as Dion did? I don't think so.. And let's not sel Dion short, if he sticks around in '11, would it be crazy to expect 1200 yards from him? Ray got 1000 in that offense, lets say Dion does a tad better. That's 4,000 yards in 3 seasons. Again, pretty sick numbers..

Those guys could have stayed 10 years and they wouldn't compare to TD. When a guy is in a class of his own it means he is in a class of his own. Everyone else is fighting for second.

 

[TD_6082]

Conner had to have worked his tail off between his FR & SO years. Physically, he improved in every way and he was a much more determined runner.

I would also go Shady, Ironhead, and Curtis. Its ironic how Curtis became known for his durability in the NFL, but couldn't stay on the field at Pitt.

 

[CaptainMurphy]

Barlow is adequately ranked on these lists. It's a shame, he could have been top five in school history. The Boston College And WVU games his senior season were two of the most dominating performances I've ever seen by a rb, along the lines of Conner. He would bulldoze into the line and emerge out the other size with no discernible holes present.

People also tend to forget the Niners handed the starting rb job to him for a few years. He had one decent season then fizzled out.