Sam Young is going to be remembered as an all-time great......at least he should be. He was a great player and this is no way meant to knock any of his ability, but if Jamel Artis played on the Young/Fields/Blair team, wouldn't he have had similar numbers than Young and be remembered the same way? Honestly, I don't feel like there is much of a talent difference between those 2 and I really think Artis has a similar NBA career as Young. Point is, I think Artis is really really good and much better than anybody gives him credit for. We talked a lot about whether or not he should move to the 4 but he clearly has good enough guard skills to play the 3 in college.
Jamel Artis vs Sam Young
- Thread starter Sean Miller Fan
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It would be interesting to compare their numbers at the same stage. I would think Artis has the better numbers by a fair margin.
Young was a better scorer and rebounder. Jamel is more versatile and has passing/playmaking ability Sam never showed. Jamel still has to play a lot more games like last night before I will put him in Sam's "class ." Artis'
performance last night though was indeed excellent.
performance last night though was indeed excellent.
I think Sam Young was one of the 3 greatest players to ever play at Pitt in the last 50 years. The other 2 are Charles Smith and Billy Knight. Artis has a way to go to get even close to that conversation. He's a great player for this team at this time and he's obviously one of the best we have right now. But I can't put him on the level of a Sam Young yet, and maybe never. Let's let him prove himself on both offense and defense for a while and then we'll know more.
Artis is not as good as Sam Young. I would take Sam in a heartbeat over Jamel--and that's by no means a slight on him.
Also, I think you'd get an argument from many that Big Fella was better than Sam. Different players but Blair was pretty dominant as just a sophomore.
uhhhhhh.....when? Sam was pretty exciting, but Jamel is more skilled. Let's see if Jamel progresses like Sam did....should be fun.
I hear ya about Blair. I guess it's just a matter of opinion. I really like Sam better than Blair, although both were great. I just put Sam in the super elite category with Smith and Knight.
He's in that conversation for sure. However, Young had the benefit of playing on much more talented teams.
I think Artis is the better rebounder and passer/playmaker. Neither could defend.
Their shooting is similar. Young, at this point had a little better knack for scoring in different ways, but much of that is due to Fields playmaking for him.
Artis does not play d and have the overall game of sam; imo it not close at this stage. Artis is not nba material
Artis is easily NBA material, especially if he improves as he has the last 2 years. Lamar made the NBA because of his shooting and passing. Jamel can be the same way and definitely has a shot.
Artis is better suited to be a NBA wing than Sam. He has a better all around skill set and is a far better ballhandler, which is critical for wings in the NBA. Sam was stronger and better around the rim than Artis.
Sam could create a bucket. He did not need anyone to "set him up". He was a " scorer" and the best "clutch" player since Billy Knight.
Sam was a great player, but when did he truly become this player? His first two years... he teased us, but it was during his junior year that he developed his baseline jumper that became automatic. If he missed, you were surprised.
Jamal has a lot of the same qualities. I think that we should wait until Jamel has used his eligibility before we end this discussion.
Would you really hold Sam above Jamal after their first two seasons at Pitt?
Go back to the triple OT game against Notre Dame in Sam's freshmen year. The game at the Pete where ND made 3's from everywhere.
Triple OT.
SAM WON THAT GAME SINGLE HANDIDLY.
He made a bucket from the left baseline that an artist couldn't paint.
I am in no way downplaying Artis. He is a splendid player....under rated...he is McCartney to Young's Lennon. Artis is an unfinished product in this his Jr. year. But Sam had better players around him than did Artis in Sam's first two years and was still able to make magic in far less PT than JD gave JA.
Recall that JD could afford to be more stingy with PT when Sam played.
I remember going to Pitts blue / gold inter squad game when Sam was a freshman , I had to borrow someone's program to see who this guy was because he looked great and it was ...Sam Young. Artis is coming on strong he still has some time and for you haters out there remember he was a Bill Barton recruit !
Ps : JArtis is older than a normal junior the NBA likes them young.
Happy New Year
Ps : JArtis is older than a normal junior the NBA likes them young.
Happy New Year
Billy Knight is on a level by himself. Not even Smith, Young, or Blair can stand with him. Pitt was total garbage when he arrived on campus. In the city, we were so far behind Duquesne, we couldn't see them. We had lost to CMU the year before he signed. CMU! Not Central Michigan, Carnegie-Mellon!! Since Knight arrived, Pitt has never fallen to the level of a horrible program again. We've had the occasional bad year, and bouts of mediocrity, but we've never been garbage again. It would have been easy for him to leave town like so many did during his era. It would have been easy for him to go to Duquesne, which was regularly ranked during that era. Instead, he took a chance, and came to a bad program. Not to dissimilar to what Tony Dorsett did a few years later.
Thanks Mooney!
Thanks Mooney!
Fair comparison between Young and Artis. I would say at this point Artis is a little ahead offensively but Young was way ahead defensively. When Artis was running the point against Syracuse it opened some eyes to the possibilities. Having a 6’7” guy running the point offers so much that we will see it often and every game IMO. Cant wait to see the next game to see if JD uses it as often as I think he should or if he waits for the next ACC game so as to not show all his cards.
I really think comparing Artis to Lamar Patterson would be more appropriate. Lamar was a great passer as well as a scorer and Jamel resembles that remark also. I do not remember Sam being as good a passer as either of them.
Remember that Lamar had a GREAT senior season. I don't think Jamel is quite up to that point yet but... he's getting there.
If you want to compare Sam Young to someone then it might be Mike Young. Sam was a 3/4 player while Mike is a 4/5 player, but otherwise their games are not that different.
I still think Blair was the best player ever to put on a Pitt uniform. The ability to take over a game and, in particular, a big game. Got votes in the Naismith national player of the year voting and, nobody else has sniffed that.
Remember that Lamar had a GREAT senior season. I don't think Jamel is quite up to that point yet but... he's getting there.
If you want to compare Sam Young to someone then it might be Mike Young. Sam was a 3/4 player while Mike is a 4/5 player, but otherwise their games are not that different.
I still think Blair was the best player ever to put on a Pitt uniform. The ability to take over a game and, in particular, a big game. Got votes in the Naismith national player of the year voting and, nobody else has sniffed that.
Agree with you completely on Knight. In addition to your point about him turning around the Pitt program, he averaged over 20 ppg and 10 rpg each of his 3 years at Pitt - no other Pitt player has done that even once. His consistency was amazing.
Sam and Jamel are very different players. Sam was the definition of a scorer. He did not have a good handle and didn't create for others. He was better inside, a better athlete, and probably a little better rebounder. As someone stated, Jamel is most like Lamar. He has a better handle than Sam, is a facilitator, and can shoot as well as Sam. Neither plays very good defense.
I agree....Billy Knight is on a level all by himself and everyone else that we've had or have falls behind him. It's not even close. I watched him play in person and he was silky smooth and easily took over a game and put Pitt on his shoulders for the win. Not taking anything at all away from anyone else, but Billy Knight was one of a kind.
But I'll still take Sam Young second to him. He developed into one of the greats at Pitt on both defense and offense. When he was on the floor against most competition, it almost wasn't fair.
It will be very difficult if not impossible to ever get a player of the caliber of another Billy Knight or Sam Young at Pitt. Most players that are as good as those 2, leave early for the NBA after a year or 2. Blair falls into that category. That's why I hesitate to put him in the category of one of the Pitt greats with Billy Knight and Sam. I try and focus on the guys who were here for 3 or 4 years and developed. I'm not a pro sports guy so the NBA doesn't really matter to me. I like to focus on the college game and Pitt and the players who stay here.
Totally agree with this.
Also, someone mentioned that Jamie had the luxury of not really playing Sam as a freshman and sophomore (though I seem to remember Sam had some back issues, too.) This is true and I also recall a lot of banter on the boards at the time as to why JD was holding him back.
Sam was more of a tweener than Jamel, who is now settling in at the 3. While he is maligned by some for his D, he always seemed to step up when he needed to. Moreover, when Sam was on the floor you got more of the sense he was a man among boys; not so with Jamel. He's definitely more like Lamar at this point.
Happy New Year!
It seems odd to say that he won that game single handidly on a day that Aaron Gray went for 25 and 11 and Carl Krauser had 21 and 6 assists. By way of comparison Young had 15 points and 12 rebounds. Certainly a good game. But single handidly?
Well, maybe you just mean in the overtimes. By the way, there were two of them, not three. In the two overtimes Young scored 7 and had 3 rebounds. 4 of those 7 points came in the first minute and a half of the first OT, so in the last 8-1/2 minutes of the overtimes he made one basket and one foul shot. One might think that the Ron Ramon three with 19 seconds left in the game that turned a 97-96 deficit into a 99-97 lead was a little bit important there, but I guess not.
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Billy Knight followed by Charles Smith,BShorter,and let's not forget Sam Clancey and I'd have to take Blair over Young . It's important to remember that Billy Knights numbers were done without the benefit of a 3 pt shot and he could shoot.
Ps the guy who could have made that list had he stayed longer than a year was Mel Bennett
Ps the guy who could have made that list had he stayed longer than a year was Mel Bennett
Nice smart aleck response.
Go back to the first overtime and see when Sam made his buckets.
Ramon never gets to the 2nd overtime without Sam.
You did not have a comment about Sam's move on the baseline.
I was there.
You? I guess not.
But with several hours of research you still missed the mark.
Nice try...average Joe.
Actually, like nearly every game Pitt has played at the Pete, I most certainly was there. It's funny that you ask me to go back to the first overtime and see when Sam made his buckets, because I already told you the answer to that question. He made two baskets in the first minute and a half of the first overtime. They were Pitt's first and third baskets in an overtime that Pitt scored ten more points after Young's last basket. If you must know, leading scorer Aaron Gray made the one in between. Young made one more basket during the other 8-1/2 minutes of overtime, with a little over a minute to go in the second overtime. So he went over six minutes without a point, and over seven minutes without scoring a basket. And even after that basket in the second overtime Notre Dame was still winning. It was Ramon's three that won the game.
I'm sorry that I burst your bubble of the silly notion that Young single handidly won the game. But at the end of the day the truth wins out.
Don't sweat it. This is why Joe has no friends.
But I can attest to the fact that Joe was there, as he goes to all games. By himself, or course! Still, I do have to make a confession. When I read the comment about Sam winning that game "single handedly," I kinda raised an eyebrow as well, because my memory of that game was quite different that yours, much to the extent that Joe already explained.
Sam certainly had some moments as a freshman, and he did play well in that ND game. But he also had many games as a freshman were he made little impact, which is very much why he didn't play more minutes. Having said this, Sam was clearly superior to Jamel as a freshman, which I suspect was the point you were trying to make.
However, Jamel was better than Sam as a soph, and much of this was because Sam was really struggling with the pain of tendonitis during the entire first half of the year. He was also playing mostly the three behind Mike Cook, who frankly was the better player at the time.
As the year went on, Sam's knees improved, and he really started to get more time, mostly at the four instead of the three. He played as Levon's backup, as well as at the four when Levon slid over to back up Aaron.
But when it comes to comparing Sam and Jamel as juniors, the edge still must go to Sam. Sam was a first team All-Big East player that year, and carried the team through many of the games after Cook and Levance went down.
But at the same points in their careers, I don't think Jamel is that far behind. He's already a much better passer than Sam. But he's not quite the explosive scorer that Sam was. And Sam was better off the dribble with his exaggerated ball fake.
Finally, Sam was a clear All-American as a senior, and obviously, Jamel is not there ... yet.
To end, I just wanted to acknowledge your fine line: "he is McCartney to Young's Lennon."
Well done.Don't sweat it. This is why Joe has no friends.
Still, I do have to make a confession. When I read the comment about Sam winning that game "single handedly," I kinda raised an eyebrow as well, because my memory of that game was quite different that yours, much to the extent that Joe already explained.
Sam certainly had some moments as a freshman, and he did play well in that ND game. But he also had many games as a freshman were he made little impact, which is very much why he didn't play more minutes. Having said this, Sam was clearly superior to Jamel as a freshman, which I suspect was the point you were trying to make.
However, Jamel was better than Sam as a soph, and much of this was because Sam was really struggling with the pain of tendonitis during the entire first half of the year. He was also playing mostly the three behind Mike Cook, who frankly was the better player at the time.
As the year went on, Sam's knees improved, and he really started to get more time, mostly at the four instead of the three. He played as Levon's backup, as well as at the four when Levon slid over to back up Aaron.
But when it comes to comparing Sam and Jamel as juniors, the edge still must go to Sam. Sam was a first team All-Big East player that year, and carried the team through many of the games after Cook and Levance went down.
But at the same points in their careers, I don't think Jamel is that far behind. He's already a much better passer than Sam. But he's not quite the explosive scorer that Sam was. And Sam was better off the dribble with his exaggerated ball fake.
Finally, Sam was a clear All-American as a senior, and obviously, Jamel is not there ... yet.
To end, I just wanted to acknowledge your fine line: "he is McCartney to Young's Lennon."
Do you recall the baseline move in front of the press corps with less than 5 seconds on the shot clock in (as average Joe pointed out) in the 1st OT? Sam is the only player I have seen don a Panther uniform who could have done it.
Conference play awaits us after MDES and Artis will have his chance to shine. I love his play and his attitude. But he has benefitted from more PT than Sam did at this stage of his career.
If Artis continues his trajectory thru 2016, then he should be 1st team all ACC.
Whether he gets it is politics...but we will be the beneficiaries.
Artis is a splendid player, but Sam's are in the books. I would love to match reality with reality this time next year and say " I saw Artis ...".
Have a great 2016!
Here's a question.
First, I actually don't remember that baseline move by Sam, but it couldn't have been in OT as you describe (or something is off in your recollection).
That is, because the Panthers would have been shooting on that side of the court (in front of the press row) only in the first half.
What I can remember very clearly is Ron Ramon's shot to win it in OT on the other side of the court because that was kinda "right in front of me" when I sat is section 115.
Because it was on the opposite end of the court, I probably didn't see it as clearly you. For what it's worth, Joe sits over there too and could have seen it clearly as well -- of course Joe would have been sitting by himself.
I would have pointed out the same fact, but then I probably would have upset him again.
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