Losing recruits

cashisking884

Senior
Jun 23, 2017
4,737
2,549
113
Problem with the portal this year is, with the 25 IC limit being raised, a lot of programs are going to be going crazy with the portal. You’re going to be seeing a lot of the USC model this year.
 

TheSpecialSauce

Head Coach
Gold Member
Nov 15, 2019
14,904
18,112
113
One thing that seems clear this year is that there is a LOT more good talent in the portal, as it is becoming more and more of a thing. There are some good-looking athletes portaling from lesser programs, and the top programs aren't going to have unlimited space for all of them. Mid-range programs should be able to find some quality.
This and a player who thinks they have a chance for the pros will want to have the opportunity to showcase their skills. They will select a program that provides a chance to start right away.
 
  • Like
Reactions: gary2

gary2

Athletic Director
Jul 21, 2001
17,443
6,894
113
Players Pitt brought in late last year:

Slovis, Kyler, Mumpfield, , Means, Johnson, Deveney, Wiltz and Simon

That is 8 transfers. This year I expect 10-12.
 

TD_6082

Head Coach
Aug 11, 2001
14,565
3,949
113
Hampton Roads, VA
One thing that seems clear this year is that there is a LOT more good talent in the portal, as it is becoming more and more of a thing. There are some good-looking athletes portaling from lesser programs, and the top programs aren't going to have unlimited space for all of them. Mid-range programs should be able to find some quality.
Absolutely.
 

Pitt_Boss

Freshman
Dec 15, 2008
1,177
1,395
113
Players Pitt brought in late last year:

Slovis, Kyler, Mumpfield, , Means, Johnson, Deveney, Wiltz and Simon

That is 8 transfers. This year I expect 10-12.
looking at this list...

Slovis is the starting QB so that has to be a plus...if you like the work he does or not
Wiltz and Simon turned into + and Simon has another year so a + for sure on him
You forgot Flemister who is a + and has a another year.

That was the good from the portal.

Johnson, Means , Mumpfield play a lot but don't actually contribute much so kind of a push on them. Someone had to do their jobs and they did them so...ok...but they didn't add value in terms of being above average players.

All in all, we did "OK' in the portal last year but need to do much better this year. We need to find more guys like Minor, DJ Turner, K. Johnson, etc. that actually move the needle when they play.
 

gary2

Athletic Director
Jul 21, 2001
17,443
6,894
113
looking at this list...

Slovis is the starting QB so that has to be a plus...if you like the work he does or not
Wiltz and Simon turned into + and Simon has another year so a + for sure on him
You forgot Flemister who is a + and has a another year.

That was the good from the portal.

Johnson, Means , Mumpfield play a lot but don't actually contribute much so kind of a push on them. Someone had to do their jobs and they did them so...ok...but they didn't add value in terms of being above average players.

All in all, we did "OK' in the portal last year but need to do much better this year. We need to find more guys like Minor, DJ Turner, K. Johnson, etc. that actually move the needle when they play.
Do not disagree a bit
 

Gunga_Galunga

All American
Jan 12, 2017
6,511
8,188
113
There's no shortage of good players hitting the portal. Staff needs to be very active and sign 8-10 guys. Also try and flip some commits with coaching changes or pickup some decommits themselves. I hope they go hard after the QB that verballed to Cincy.
 

Sean Miller Fan

Lair Hall of Famer
Oct 30, 2001
55,800
17,132
113
Is not good, but...

gives us more numbers to add experienced portal transfers.

For next season, that might not be a bad thing.

I'm not sure any of these guys are huge losses individually, even Minchey as HS QBs have a huge bust rate. My concern is that its the sign of a larger problem. Either lack of NIL money or maybe some internal issues regarding coaching/recruiting that aren't really fixable.
 

poconopanther

Redshirt
Jul 5, 2001
621
507
93
I know it’s been addressed on this board but what the hell is the purpose of that twenty mill Bickell contribution. We are basically losing three star recruits after winning a ACC title so I don’t think NIL opportunities are the sole reason but if so HL has to do a better job getting these agreements in place. I agree we have to hit the portal hard but so do the great majority of other teams so are we gonna get outbid fir these talents as well.
 

Harlo4PITT

Walk-on
Gold Member
May 2, 2022
83
95
18
Can't really call them "commitments" now these days, more like programs are dating the kids and once the shine begins to dull on the excitement they want that new found love feeling all over again.
Feel getting a kid through the portal is more advantageous because he now has lived a little and gained some life perspective. They've hopefully matured both mentally and physically and are better fit to contribute immediately without the need for development as needed by a freshman recruit.
 
Mar 3, 2022
3,706
2,240
113
looking at this list...

Slovis is the starting QB so that has to be a plus...if you like the work he does or not
Wiltz and Simon turned into + and Simon has another year so a + for sure on him
You forgot Flemister who is a + and has a another year.

That was the good from the portal.

Johnson, Means , Mumpfield play a lot but don't actually contribute much so kind of a push on them. Someone had to do their jobs and they did them so...ok...but they didn't add value in terms of being above average players.

All in all, we did "OK' in the portal last year but need to do much better this year. We need to find more guys like Minor, DJ Turner, K. Johnson, etc. that actually move the needle when they play.
It seems clear Slovis was not only given the starting job by default, but relentlessly continued to be sent out there even in games when he obviously should have been pulled (to the extreme we were willing to lose the game for doing so), specifically to show future high profile QB transfers that they would get similar favor here.
 
  • Like
Reactions: cashisking884

ThePanthers

Head Coach
May 4, 2009
13,277
4,199
113
I know it’s been addressed on this board but what the hell is the purpose of that twenty mill Bickell contribution. We are basically losing three star recruits after winning a ACC title so I don’t think NIL opportunities are the sole reason but if so HL has to do a better job getting these agreements in place. I agree we have to hit the portal hard but so do the great majority of other teams so are we gonna get outbid fir these talents as well.
For the millionth time, the school cannot set up or be involved in these NIL collectives/agreements. This has to be done by a third party, donors, alumni, etc.
 

Pitt_Boss

Freshman
Dec 15, 2008
1,177
1,395
113
I think Wiltz was a sneaky smart portal grab last year - dude can play. But he' gone already. It's hard to be a functional football team with a bunch of 1 year rentals, even though some like Wiltz, K.Johnson, etc. worked out well. We need to get transfers with multiple year left who still have room to grow as players and mold into a team. Guys like Devonshire, T. Mack, Minor, Petrishen, etc. They are here long enough that you sometimes forget they are transfers at the end of their careers and are just Pitt men. We'll probably feel this way about Simon and Flemister by the end of next year, maybe even Jacoby too if he earns a starting gig.
 

Gunga_Galunga

All American
Jan 12, 2017
6,511
8,188
113
For the millionth time, the school cannot set up or be involved in these NIL collectives/agreements. This has to be done by a third party, donors, alumni, etc.
Technically yes, but I can assure most other schools, coaches, and administrations are actively involved in recruiting and empowering these donors. It's not being done in a vacuum. Ryan Day came out publicly and said they need $13m a year in NIL to compete.
 

Zombieking

Freshman
Gold Member
Apr 1, 2009
1,856
2,491
113
I think Wiltz was a sneaky smart portal grab last year - dude can play. But he' gone already. It's hard to be a functional football team with a bunch of 1 year rentals, even though some like Wiltz, K.Johnson, etc. worked out well. We need to get transfers with multiple year left who still have room to grow as players and mold into a team. Guys like Devonshire, T. Mack, Minor, Petrishen, etc. They are here long enough that you sometimes forget they are transfers at the end of their careers and are just Pitt men. We'll probably feel this way about Simon and Flemister by the end of next year, maybe even Jacoby too if he earns a starting gig.
see Michigan St. for relying on transfers...risky
 
Oct 25, 2021
6,313
5,178
113
Technically yes, but I can assure most other schools, coaches, and administrations are actively involved in recruiting and empowering these donors. It's not being done in a vacuum. Ryan Day came out publicly and said they need $13m a year in NIL to compete.

Pitt is doing this, just not at a level it takes to matter. They absolutely set something up for Addison. They absolutely set something up to get Slovis here (Notre Dame wanted him). Maryland absolutely offered Neal money and we retained him. VT supposedly has offered Bass $100k, and we've retained him... so far.

It's naive to think we're not playing the game like everybody else. We have a top 25 basketball class incoming at a shit storm of a program, for Pete's sake.

We just can't do it at a level that matters much. A guy here or a guy there, sure.
 
  • Like
Reactions: cashisking884

Gunga_Galunga

All American
Jan 12, 2017
6,511
8,188
113
Pitt is doing this, just not at a level it takes to matter. They absolutely set something up for Addison. They absolutely set something up to get Slovis here (Notre Dame wanted him). Maryland absolutely offered Neal money and we retained him. VT supposedly has offered Bass $100k, and we've retained him... so far.

It's naive to think we're not playing the game like everybody else. We have a top 25 basketball class incoming at a shit storm of a program, for Pete's sake.

We just can't do it at a level that matters much. A guy here or a guy there, sure.
I'm sure we are, but just not enough. Recruiting always required a slush fund, it's just gotten a lot bigger now. You need it for HS kids and transfers.

Hate to agree with SMF, but he's right about the Panther Club. Given the option, most football fans would contribute to a football NIL over the Panther Club.
 
  • Like
Reactions: cashisking884
Oct 25, 2021
6,313
5,178
113
see Michigan St. for relying on transfers...risky

Virginia Tech also has a ton of transfers. Doesn't seem like a successful business model to me. We love to point out the ones that work out without glossing over the facts that A) the other 75% didn't and B) they still weren't our best players.

I mean, when we're citing Shayne Simon and C'Bo Flemister as success stories that justify living and dying by the transfer portal, we probably need to take a step back and ask ourselves if we can really win that way.
 
  • Like
Reactions: cashisking884

Chem95

Scholarship
Nov 11, 2003
256
202
43
Virginia Tech also has a ton of transfers. Doesn't seem like a successful business model to me. We love to point out the ones that work out without glossing over the facts that A) the other 75% didn't and B) they still weren't our best players.

I mean, when we're citing Shayne Simon and C'Bo Flemister as success stories that justify living and dying by the transfer portal, we probably need to take a step back and ask ourselves if we can really win that way.
Is the hit rate on HS players any better? Prior to the 'free transfer' situation...if 33% of a class saw the field, that was considered pretty good. We had a lot better hit rate than 25% on the transfers....
 
Oct 25, 2021
6,313
5,178
113
Is the hit rate on HS players any better? Prior to the 'free transfer' situation...if 33% of a class saw the field, that was considered pretty good. We had a lot better hit rate than 25% on the transfers....

The star rate is definitely better for high school recruits. Think about a guy like Kancey. He was a little unheralded as a recruit, but not terribly so (had some decent offers). Well, Narduzzi talked him up from the moment he stepped on campus as a true freshman. So if we can no longer recruit guys like that, we're going to be hurting. Because if the coaches become enamored with them, they're not going to get to the transfer portal.
 

steelcurtain55.

Sophomore
May 6, 2017
2,984
1,873
113
ut he' gone already. It's hard to be a functional football team with a bunch of 1 year rentals, even though some like Wiltz, K.Johnson, etc. worked out well.
Good thing Duzz's defense is about as easy to learn as a 3rd grade spelling bee... Funny how Duzz was blamed by the cult that his defense was too complicated for Paris Ford to learn and that he should dumb it down because Ford was an "elite" player who was getting a raw deal from the staff because somehow the staff didn't want to win bad enough... SMDH..

Duzz's defense is plug and play..
 
  • Like
Reactions: pittdan77

Chem95

Scholarship
Nov 11, 2003
256
202
43
The star rate is definitely better for high school recruits. Think about a guy like Kancey. He was a little unheralded as a recruit, but not terribly so (had some decent offers). Well, Narduzzi talked him up from the moment he stepped on campus as a true freshman. So if we can no longer recruit guys like that, we're going to be hurting. Because if the coaches become enamored with them, they're not going to get to the transfer portal.
But why aren't we going to recruit guys like that?
 

ThePanthers

Head Coach
May 4, 2009
13,277
4,199
113
I'm sure we are, but just not enough. Recruiting always required a slush fund, it's just gotten a lot bigger now. You need it for HS kids and transfers.

Hate to agree with SMF, but he's right about the Panther Club. Given the option, most football fans would contribute to a football NIL over the Panther Club.

They can donate to pitts nil collectives. I just don't think the average pitt fan cares to donate.
 

Pitt_Boss

Freshman
Dec 15, 2008
1,177
1,395
113
We still need to develop HS kids. We are used to developing kids, getting good work from them in a season or two, then them having 1 big season and leaving....for the NFL. Only. difference is now some of them will leave for another school instead of the NFL. Cancey has eligibility but he ain't coming back. What's the difference if he goes to the NFL or Michigan (unless it someone we play next year). But really, most of our top end players that were developed internally will be NFL draft eligible by the time they are stars here (Izzy, Cancey, etc.) so they are far more likely to go pro than transfer. Addison was an exception in that he hit superstar status before he was draft eligible. The last couple times that happened (Fitz, McCoy) they left too, just got the draft rules changed instead. But how many true freshmen or true sophomores are we going to have at that level for the big boys to recruit?
 
Oct 25, 2021
6,313
5,178
113
We still need to develop HS kids. We are used to developing kids, getting good work from them in a season or two, then them having 1 big season and leaving....for the NFL. Only. difference is now some of them will leave for another school instead of the NFL. Cancey has eligibility but he ain't coming back. What's the difference if he goes to the NFL or Michigan (unless it someone we play next year). But really, most of our top end players that were developed internally will be NFL draft eligible by the time they are stars here (Izzy, Cancey, etc.) so they are far more likely to go pro than transfer. Addison was an exception in that he hit superstar status before he was draft eligible. The last couple times that happened (Fitz, McCoy) they left too, just got the draft rules changed instead. But how many true freshmen or true sophomores are we going to have at that level for the big boys to recruit?

I don't know... I think we tend to get 2-3 years out of the really good ones more often than not. Maybe that changes now and guys transfer for $ as soon as they have a good season. But I'm talking historically.
 

steelcurtain55.

Sophomore
May 6, 2017
2,984
1,873
113
Wasn't it Deion Sanders who said they would bring in

70-75% - Transfer Portal
20-25% - HS Players

maybe those #'s are off a bit but I remember he put something out what Jackson State's recruiting strategy was going forward.

He also said this -"See, with the NIL, which really ain't NIL because it ain't no name, image, and likeness, it's just pay-per view right now," Sanders said. "That's what they're doing at the big boys, little boys we can't compete with that."
 
Oct 25, 2021
6,313
5,178
113
Wasn't it Deion Sanders who said they would bring in

70-75% - Transfer Portal
20-25% - HS Players

maybe those #'s are off a bit but I remember he put something out what Jackson State's recruiting strategy was going forward.

He also said this -"See, with the NIL, which really ain't NIL because it ain't no name, image, and likeness, it's just pay-per view right now," Sanders said. "That's what they're doing at the big boys, little boys we can't compete with that."

That makes a ton of sense for an FCS school. Give me guys who couldn't cut it at big-time FBS schools over 0 and 2-stars.

Not sure taking the FBS leftovers makes as much sense for Pitt, since we have to compete with the teams we took them from.
 

steelcurtain55.

Sophomore
May 6, 2017
2,984
1,873
113
That makes a ton of sense for an FCS school. Give me guys who couldn't cut it at big-time FBS schools over 0 and 2-stars.

Not sure taking the FBS leftovers makes as much sense for Pitt, since we have to compete with the teams we took them from.
I think the landscape at the FBS level is already changing drastically. Maybe not to the extremes that Deion is talking about. But, I'm noticing PSAC guys all of sudden getting attention from FBS schools that you never would have seen before.
 
Oct 25, 2021
6,313
5,178
113
I think the landscape at the FBS level is already changing drastically. Maybe not to the extremes that Deion is talking about. But, I'm noticing PSAC guys all of sudden getting attention from FBS schools that you never would have seen before.

Younger guys? Because I think there could be a two-part explanation for that:

1) The 2021 guys weren't properly evaluated because of Covid. Many didn't even have senior seasons in high school in 2020.

2) Also because of Covid, teams are taking smaller classes because the extra year of eligibility is being used by a lot of guys. For instance, I think we had like 7 super seniors this year. If every team in the FBS had a similar number, that's 1,000 scholarships being sucked up. That means 1,000 less spots for recruits. So 1,000 guys who would have otherwise been FBS recruits presumably got pushed down a level. And that's just one season. The 6th year didn't count against the 85-man limit last season, but it still likely made for some smaller classes. So, point being, there's probably more FBS talent in the FCS now than ever before. I imagine it will find its level again once this Covid year expires.
 

Gunga_Galunga

All American
Jan 12, 2017
6,511
8,188
113
They can donate to pitts nil collectives. I just don't think the average pitt fan cares to donate.
Sure, but there's no marketing or push by anyone. It's a bad strategy and will continue to cost Pitt players. ADs and coaches at other schools are embracing and advocating these collectives because they know the game has changed. We're way behind the eight ball. If Pitt isn't going to change, well the results won't be good.

 

Gunga_Galunga

All American
Jan 12, 2017
6,511
8,188
113
I think it's funny we're still concerned about the "rules." There are no rules and no enforcement body. That's become crystal clear.
 

TD_6082

Head Coach
Aug 11, 2001
14,565
3,949
113
Hampton Roads, VA
Sure, but there's no marketing or push by anyone. It's a bad strategy and will continue to cost Pitt players. ADs and coaches at other schools are embracing and advocating these collectives because they know the game has changed. We're way behind the eight ball. If Pitt isn't going to change, well the results won't be good.

Someone at Pitt needs to start an NIL where the primary job of the player receiving NIL money is to make personal appearances specifically to promote and fundraise for the NIL.