MLS expansion

[Sean Miller Fan]

So Columbus is staying but the MLS awarded Anthony Precourt an expansion team in Austin for his troubles bringing the total number of teams to 27. I really really think the MLS has to get to 40 for several reasons:

- the national TV ratings still suck. Just like college conferences expanded to grow their TV market, MLS needs to do the same. MLS is invisible in a place like Pittsburgh. MLS has to engage as many major population centers as possible.

- more teams, more Americans become pro soccer players and more first-class youth academies.

- cuts down travel time with more games in your geographic region. Bigger stars complain about what amounts to continental travel.

So, if we look at the 13 biggest metropolitan areas without MLS teams, here they are:

Phoenix
San Francisco/Oakland (San Jose has a team though)
Riverside/San Bernadino (too close to LA which has 2 teams)
Detroit
San Diego
Tampa
Baltimore
St. Louis
Charlotte
San Antonio (maybe too close to Austin)
Pittsburgh
Sacramento
Las Vegas

If we figure that Riverside and SF/Oakland arent getting a team, and probably not San Antonio, the next 3 are

Cleveland
Indianapolis
Hampton Roads

You can do 2 conferences with 4 10 team divisions. Play 18 games vs your division, 8 games vs other conference. 36 games.

Northeast
Montreal
Toronto
NE
RBNY
NYCFC
Philly
Pgh
Cle
Columbus
Cin

South
Bal
DC
HR
Cha
Nashville
Atl
Orl
Tampa
Miami

Midwest
Det
Ind
Min
KC
StL
Hou
Aus
Dal
Colorado
RSL

Pacific
LV
Pho
SD
Galaxy
LAFC
San Jose
Sacramento
Portland
Seattle
Vancouver

 

[PotterCountyNative]

Understand and agree with a lot of your premise, but 40 way too extreme, 30 or 32 might be better.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

Understand and agree with a lot of your premise, but 40 way too extreme, 30 or 32 might be better.

It seems that way but this isnt the NBA, NHL, MLB, or NFL. There is no concern of dilution of the product because there is plenty of worldwide talent that is "MLS-level." MLS cannot afford to ignore so many major population centers.

 

[Fk_Pitt]

So Columbus is staying but the MLS awarded Anthony Precourt an expansion team in Austin for his troubles bringing the total number of teams to 27. I really really think the MLS has to get to 40 for several reasons:

- the national TV ratings still suck. Just like college conferences expanded to grow their TV market, MLS needs to do the same. MLS is invisible in a place like Pittsburgh. MLS has to engage as many major population centers as possible.

- more teams, more Americans become pro soccer players and more first-class youth academies.

- cuts down travel time with more games in your geographic region. Bigger stars complain about what amounts to continental travel.

So, if we look at the 13 biggest metropolitan areas without MLS teams, here they are:

Phoenix
San Francisco/Oakland (San Jose has a team though)
Riverside/San Bernadino (too close to LA which has 2 teams)
Detroit
San Diego
Tampa
Baltimore
St. Louis
Charlotte
San Antonio (maybe too close to Austin)
Pittsburgh
Sacramento
Las Vegas

If we figure that Riverside and SF/Oakland arent getting a team, and probably not San Antonio, the next 3 are

Cleveland
Indianapolis
Hampton Roads

You can do 2 conferences with 4 10 team divisions. Play 18 games vs your division, 8 games vs other conference. 36 games.

Northeast
Montreal
Toronto
NE
RBNY
NYCFC
Philly
Pgh
Cle
Columbus
Cin

South
Bal
DC
HR
Cha
Nashville
Atl
Orl
Tampa
Miami

Midwest
Det
Ind
Min
KC
StL
Hou
Aus
Dal
Colorado
RSL

Pacific
LV
Pho
SD
Galaxy
LAFC
San Jose
Sacramento
Portland
Seattle
Vancouver

Such a long way to go for Pittsburgh. The riverhounds likely hurt us more than anything. Dispite their being dozens of thousands of youths players currently playing, 90% of these families don’t care. I wonder if their following is greater than the Washington wild things?

Personally , I’d like to follow the riverhounds. But I just don’t feel any connection. I’ll go to pitt men’s and women’s games each season, but I haven’t seen a RH game since David Flavius was playing on the team when they were at Chartiers Valley HS and then in the wild things ball park in Washington.

For me MLS is even a afterthought. I don’t watch at all. My two all time favorite players, Drogba and Lampard, played in MLS and I didn’t watch one game. I saw Zlatan’s debut which was cool but haven’t watched since. All of this being said, if we did have

It seems that way but this isnt the NBA, NHL, MLB, or NFL. There is no concern of dilution of the product because there is plenty of worldwide talent that is "MLS-level." MLS cannot afford to ignore so many major population centers.

good point. Never thought about it that way.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

Such a long way to go for Pittsburgh. The riverhounds likely hurt us more than anything. Dispite their being dozens of thousands of youths players currently playing, 90% of these families don’t care. I wonder if their following is greater than the Washington wild things?

Personally , I’d like to follow the riverhounds. But I just don’t feel any connection. I’ll go to pitt men’s and women’s games each season, but I haven’t seen a RH game since David Flavius was playing on the team when they were at Chartiers Valley HS and then in the wild things ball park in Washington.

For me MLS is even a afterthought. I don’t watch at all. My two all time favorite players, Drogba and Lampard, played in MLS and I didn’t watch one game. I saw Zlatan’s debut which was cool but haven’t watched since. All of this being said, if we did have

good point. Never thought about it that way.

You are right that the Riverhounds hurt our MLS chances more than help it. It would honestly be better if we didnt have a team. However, I do believe if a big-time investor came along with a plan to build a stadium (ie Pens building an MLS stadium across from PPG), MLS would give them consideration.

 

[Fk_Pitt]

You are right that the Riverhounds hurt our MLS chances more than help it. It would honestly be better if we didnt have a team. However, I do believe if a big-time investor came along with a plan to build a stadium (ie Pens building an MLS stadium across from PPG), MLS would give them consideration.

Lol. I somehow didn’t finish my post. I wanted to say that if we did get an MLS team, they may ascend right to the head of my list, just behind pitt hoops.

 

[Pitt79]

For me MLS is even a afterthought. I don’t watch at all. My two all time favorite players, Drogba and Lampard, played in MLS and I didn’t watch one game. I saw Zlatan’s debut which was cool but haven’t watched since.

No offense, Don't get mad and shoot the messenger. I personally am more of a fan of DC United and MLS than EPL or La Liga or Bundesliga or any of that. I watch it often. I just can't feel any connection to teams in English cities to be honest, like you can't feel that for the Riverhounds, and I like to watch live games in the afternoon or early evening, not between 7am-Noon. And I can better relate to US cities, like DC, NY, LA, Chicago, Seattle, etc. YES! YES! YES! I know the "QUALITY of play" is poor, it is not "Major League" on the worldwide level. But you guys seem to be serious soccer fans, you like the sport. Don't you want a pro league to exist inside the USA? If all the soccer fans in North America (USA & CANADA) felt like you, "I can't watch this because it's not the absolute best", then MLS would fold? I think it's kind of cool that the USA actually has a league now, for most of our lives it really didn't, outside of the NASL's 8-10 year window in the 70s and 80s. It's kind of a shame that many USA fans don't watch it, and doesn't that contribute to it possibly never being major league on the big stage?

 

[PotterCountyNative]

Does the MLS product improve by diluting the talent immensely. I believe why some folks prefer watching EPL, Laa Liga, Serie A, Bundesliga, is due to the quality of play. Fans will become bored if the MLS product is too diluted.

 

[Pitt79]

Does the MLS product improve by diluting the talent immensely. I believe why some folks prefer watching EPL, Laa Liga, Serie A, Bundesliga, is due to the quality of play. Fans will become bored if the MLS product is too diluted.

Maybe, for some people I guess? Myself I care more about having a local team near me, where I can get all of the TV broadcasts and really get to know the roster intimately, even if they are mediocre, because I see most of the games and the same time zone, and close enough that I can attend a game sometimes if I want... FOR ME, all of those things matter more than the quality of play.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

Does the MLS product improve by diluting the talent immensely. I believe why some folks prefer watching EPL, Laa Liga, Serie A, Bundesliga, is due to the quality of play. Fans will become bored if the MLS product is too diluted.

As I said, there would be no dilution. The MLS currently gets a few over-the-hill stars, Americans who arent good enough to play in Europe, and 2nd rate Central and South American players. There is an endless supply of these players. You could go to any bus stop in Sao Paulo and find 5 MLS quality players.

 

[Pitt79]

As I said, there would be no dilution. The MLS currently gets a few over-the-hill stars, Americans who arent good enough to play in Europe, and 2nd rate Central and South American players. There is an endless supply of these players. You could go to any bus stop in Sao Paulo and find 5 MLS quality players.

So my question is specifically for you. You seem to be in the camp that you can't watch MLS because it's NOT THE BEST, so why do you care if they expand, if you're not watching it anyways?

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

So my question is specifically for you. You seem to be in the camp that you can't watch MLS because it's NOT THE BEST, so why do you care if they expand, if you're not watching it anyways?

I will become an enormous fan if we had a team

 

[anon_d97v9o3a8b6xr]

Does the MLS product improve by diluting the talent immensely. I believe why some folks prefer watching EPL, Laa Liga, Serie A, Bundesliga, is due to the quality of play. Fans will become bored if the MLS product is too diluted.

MLS would become an extension of college soccer. Adding more than a dozen teams means finding more than 200 players willing to play for peanuts. You won't steal anyone from better leagues when paying poorly, but you'll find college graduates who really don't belong on a pro roster, but they want a job.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

MLS would become an extension of college soccer.

And oddly enough, MLS teams are relying less and less on college players all the time because they simply aren't good enough. The notion that adding all those teams would not cause any dilution in talent is one of the most batshit crazy things SMF has ever said, and that's saying a lot.

 

[anon_d97v9o3a8b6xr]

And oddly enough, MLS teams are relying less and less on college players all the time because they simply aren't good enough. The notion that adding all those teams would not cause any dilution in talent is one of the most batshit crazy things SMF has ever said, and that's saying a lot.

He is assuming these expansion teams will have real budgets to attract big time talent.

 

[Pitt79]

Like I keep saying, I don't care about the talent level or quality of play, I live about an hour away from DC United and have been to games, but I would absolutely love to have a VERY LOCAL team here in the Baltimore area, REALLY CLOSE, whether it be MLS or even USL, I just want something to EASILY go to in person, hopefully pretty cheap, for the entertainment and the night out. What do I care if they can beat Barcelona or Man U? it's just for FUN.

I see some of these USL teams, like Cincy and Louisville are drawing really big crowds, apparently a lot of people are more interested in a selfish personal experience, probably partying and tailgating included, and not concerned how great the talent level is.

 

[Pitt79]

I will become an enormous fan if we had a team

That's good then. It would be great if Pittsburgh had MLS.

 

[Pitt79]

MLS would become an extension of college soccer. Adding more than a dozen teams means finding more than 200 players willing to play for peanuts. You won't steal anyone from better leagues when paying poorly, but you'll find college graduates who really don't belong on a pro roster, but they want a job.

So what, this is probably the norm in the LESSER soccer countries, places like the USA. I'm sure a lot of people at playing for peanuts in the Slovenian or El Salvador league, USA is closer to that than the Premier League, just cheap entertainment for the local Yinzers.

 

[Fk_Pitt]

So what, this is probably the norm in the LESSER soccer countries, places like the USA. I'm sure a lot of people at playing for peanuts in the Slovenian or El Salvador league, USA is closer to that than the Premier League, just cheap entertainment for the local Yinzers.

Right now I would guess that the MLS is notch below the English Championship ( the division below the Premier League). That would make it at best the 8th best league in the world. Adding additional teams certainly won’t move the league ahead of any other league. And it doesn’t seem logical that adding teams will not affect the level of play.

 

[Pitt79]

Right now I would guess that the MLS is notch below the English Championship ( the division below the Premier League). That would make it at best the 8th best league in the world. Adding additional teams certainly won’t move the league ahead of any other league. And it doesn’t seem logical that adding teams will not affect the level of play.

Americans should be ecstatic that our professional soccer league is EIGHTH BEST! That's over the top outstanding, and way better than should be expected for a country that ignored the sport for 100+ years while it was everyone else's #1 sport. And personally, I'd love a local team, in my area, even if it dropped the league 10 notches. What do I care if it's the best or #8 or #18 or #80, it's JUST ENTERTAINMENT. But in all seriousness, how can THIS COUNTRY, the USA, be upset at being #8, that's amazing that we are that high in the rankings being a country where the majority of people really don't give a crap about the sport.

 

[Fk_Pitt]

Americans should be ecstatic that our professional soccer league is EIGHTH BEST! That's over the top outstanding, and way better than should be expected for a country that ignored the sport for 100+ years while it was everyone else's #1 sport. And personally, I'd love a local team, in my area, even if it dropped the league 10 notches. What do I care if it's the best or #8 or #18 or #80, it's JUST ENTERTAINMENT. But in all seriousness, how can THIS COUNTRY, the USA, be upset at being #8, that's amazing that we are that high in the rankings being a country where the majority of people really don't give a crap about the sport.

I think whether it’s the 8th best league (which some may dispute) or the 16th best, it doesn’t matter. I enjoy college soccer which is even worse.

Give Pittsburgh an MLS team, and I bet they’d leapfrog the Pens in my eyes.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

He is assuming these expansion teams will have real budgets to attract big time talent.

I am assuming a 40 team league could attract a better national/global TV deal so there would be money for a team like Pittsburgh to attract MLS-level talent.

 

[Pitt79]

I think whether it’s the 8th best league (which some may dispute) or the 16th best, it doesn’t matter. I enjoy college soccer which is even worse.

Give Pittsburgh an MLS team, and I bet they’d leapfrog the Pens in my eyes.

My whole point just being, we have a USA league now, I'd hate to see it go away because it's not the best in the world and actual soccer fans act like it's beneath them to watch it. It's easy for me to watch low quality soccer, I mostly became a fan watching my daughter play club and high school, then that got me into watching more of it on TV. Still, I do prefer American football, but that's another good thing about the MLS, most of the season happens before American football starts.

An aside on that, I even watch Indoor Soccer in the winter, Baltimore Blast is one of the best franchises historically, 10 titles in 40 years. So I attend a few games, watch some on the MASL YouTube Channel. Interesting thing this week, Landon Donovan is coming out of retirement to play for the San Diego team. Some people can't hang it up, LOL

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

Right now I would guess that the MLS is notch below the English Championship ( the division below the Premier League). That would make it at best the 8th best league in the world. Adding additional teams certainly won’t move the league ahead of any other league. And it doesn’t seem logical that adding teams will not affect the level of play.

You are being very generous. I would rank the following leagues above MLS:

Premier League
Championship
League 1
Bundesliga
2 Bundesliga
La Liga
Spain 2nd Division
Serie A
Serie B
France
Turkey
Mexico
Brazil
Argentina

This doesnt even count leagues who are as good or better than MLS like

Colombia
Scottish Premier League
Mexican 2nd Division
Greece
Belgium
Switzerland
Poland
Russia

Etc

 

[Pitt79]

You are being very generous. I would rank the following leagues above MLS:

Premier League
Championship
League 1
Bundesliga
2 Bundesliga
La Liga
Spain 2nd Division
Serie A
Serie B
France
Turkey
Mexico
Brazil
Argentina

This doesnt even count leagues who are as good or better than MLS like

Colombia
Scottish Premier League
Mexican 2nd Division
Greece
Belgium
Switzerland
Poland
Russia

Etc

My whole point goes back to this, all these leagues EXIST, so apparently they have fans that watch them. I have experience with Greece, first hand, people know Greek Super League is not as good as English Premier League or La Liga or Bundesliga, but I'd say they are fans of their local teams first and watching that and not EPL because the quality is better. Then again, to them it's like the MLB or NFL, they've been watching their league since way before WW2. Being an Olympiacos or AEK fan runs in the family going back generations, like being a Steelers fan or Yankees fan, so that plays a part I suppose.

 

[anon_d97v9o3a8b6xr]

So what, this is probably the norm in the LESSER soccer countries, places like the USA. I'm sure a lot of people at playing for peanuts in the Slovenian or El Salvador league, USA is closer to that than the Premier League, just cheap entertainment for the local Yinzers.

You don’t see the big picture obviously. It’s also about building the national team with homegrown players. A crappy league doesn’t do much for our larger platform and thats world competition. As long as Soccer here falls below baseball football basketball and heck even hockey financially, our quality and growth will be low. Adding teams and players to the mls just doesn’t magically make it better.

 

[Pitt79]

You don’t see the big picture obviously. It’s also about building the national team with homegrown players. A crappy league doesn’t do much for our larger platform and thats world competition. As long as Soccer here falls below baseball football basketball and heck even hockey financially, our quality and growth will be low. Adding teams and players to the mls just doesn’t magically make it better.

My point is that Americans have this entitled attitude, there's no destiny necessarily that the USA has to be a top team in every sport. Maybe we'll just perennially be like Germany is in basketball, kind of OK, but never a serious contender for the top spot, and so what?

I still personally would like a domestic league just for TV entertainment, and having nothing to do with developing players for the USMNT. MLS IMO is not primarily for developing USMNT players, it's primarily to entertain the USA fans and fans in their cities.

 

[Pitt79]

Adding teams and players to the mls just doesn’t magically make it better.

But it does make it better for fans in the cities added who's #1 desire above developing USMNT players is having a local team to follow.

 

[Fk_Pitt]

One of MLS’s best going to the Premier League to play for New Castle.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/footbal...tlanta-uniteds/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

 

[Pitt79]

He's a really good player in MLS, I also saw him play vs. USMNT last year. Atlanta was loaded last year, with him and several other players, Josef Martinez from Venezuela, who shattered the MLS record with 31 goals last year.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

One of MLS’s best going to the Premier League to play for New Castle.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/footbal...tlanta-uniteds/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

One of MLS’s best going to the Premier League to play for New Castle.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/footbal...tlanta-uniteds/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

He isnt an American but is an example of why I say there would be no talent drop off in an expanded MLS. There are scores of players all over South America playing in underfunded domestic leagues that can be had at cheap prices. The 2 kids from Atlanta United are examples. Fredy Montero at Seattle a few years ago is another. Juninho from the LA Galaxy. These types of players are in abundance in South America. There has been a trend in MLS to go after these younger South Americans and then sell them to Europe.

 

[Pitt79]

What are the best leagues in North and South America? Mexico? Brazil? Argentina? I could see MLS eventually being the best in this group based on economics.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

He isnt an American but is an example of why I say there would be no talent drop off in an expanded MLS. There are scores of players all over South America playing in underfunded domestic leagues that can be had at cheap prices. The 2 kids from Atlanta United are examples. Fredy Montero at Seattle a few years ago is another. Juninho from the LA Galaxy. These types of players are in abundance in South America. There has been a trend in MLS to go after these younger South Americans and then sell them to Europe.

Just because you say it that doesn't make it true.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

Just because you say it that doesn't make it true.

I dont think you realize the talent difference between those South American leagues and MLS.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

I dont think you realize the talent difference between those South American leagues and MLS.

I don't think you understand the difference. In fact I know you don't.

Newcastle signed Almiron for a $27 million transfer fee. The notion that there are plenty of guys in South America just like him is nuts. Plain and simple, nuts. The guys you are talking about are all guys who were good players in South America, they weren't dime a dozen guys. If guys like Almiron were dime a dozen, regular, ordinary players in South America then, well, they wouldn't be playing in South America because they'd have been sold off to European clubs a long time ago.

And by the way, the salary in the top league in Brazil is significantly higher than the average salary in MLS. Although it's much closer the average salary in Argentina is also a good bit higher than the average salary in MLS. The notion that MLS teams are going to be able to routinely pick up all these underpaid South Americas because the leagues down there don't pay any money is just another thing that you are completely wrong about.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

I don't think you understand the difference. In fact I know you don't.

Newcastle signed Almiron for a $27 million transfer fee. The notion that there are plenty of guys in South America just like him is nuts. Plain and simple, nuts. The guys you are talking about are all guys who were good players in South America, they weren't dime a dozen guys. If guys like Almiron were dime a dozen, regular, ordinary players in South America then, well, they wouldn't be playing in South America because they'd have been sold off to European clubs a long time ago.

And by the way, the salary in the top league in Brazil is significantly higher than the average salary in MLS. Although it's much closer the average salary in Argentina is also a good bit higher than the average salary in MLS. The notion that MLS teams are going to be able to routinely pick up all these underpaid South Americas because the leagues down there don't pay any money is just another thing that you are completely wrong about.

There are levels here.

1. MLS is recruiting higher-end YOUNG South Americans and paying them competitively. For these kids, MLS is being used as a springboard. No, not everyone will be an Almiron but MLS JUST started doing this and look at the results. The young talent in South America is endless. Not all will be EPL quality but A LOT are MLS quality.

2. The Juninho's of the South America can be found in any coffee shop or bus stop. MLS can fill out a roster of these types with 0 trouble.

I realize you dont like to be wrong but here you are, this isnt baseball, basketball, or football. We are talking about maybe the 20th best soccer league in the world. Adding 10-15 teams simply isnt going to diminish the quality much at all. Nobody from DC is going to stop watching DC United because Pittsburgh and Cleveland have South Americans and Central Americans of a lesser quality than what Philly, New England, and Montreal currently have.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

1. MLS is recruiting higher-end YOUNG South Americans and paying them competitively. For these kids, MLS is being used as a springboard. No, not everyone will be an Almiron but MLS JUST started doing this and look at the results. The young talent in South America is endless. Not all will be EPL quality but A LOT are MLS quality.

They are, and the problem with that strategy, especially in a salary cap league with designated players, is that when teams pick the wrong young South American they get stuck paying guys who can't really play, or at least not at the level they are getting paid at. And that's a bad thing in a league with a salary structure like MLS. If you get it right you are good, if you screw it up it hurts for a long time.

2. The Juninho's of the South America can be found in any coffee shop or bus stop. MLS can fill out a roster of these types with 0 trouble.

No matter how many times you say it that still won't make it true. The notion that adding 10-15 teams won't diminish the quality of play in the league is perhaps the dumbest thing you've ever posted, and considering how high a bar that is to reach that's really saying something.

 

[Fk_Pitt]

They are, and the problem with that strategy, especially in a salary cap league with designated players, is that when teams pick the wrong young South American they get stuck paying guys who can't really play, or at least not at the level they are getting paid at. And that's a bad thing in a league with a salary structure like MLS. If you get it right you are good, if you screw it up it hurts for a long time.





No matter how many times you say it that still won't make it true. The notion that adding 10-15 teams won't diminish the quality of play in the league is perhaps the dumbest thing you've ever posted, and considering how high a bar that is to reach that's really saying something.

It’s stereotypical and no different than saying that you can pull any black guy out of a US inner city barber shop and field a pro basketball roster.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

It’s stereotypical and no different than saying that you can pull any black guy out of a US inner city barber shop and field a pro basketball roster.

How dumb (or lazy) must he think South Americans must be if he thinks there are dozens of them as good or better soccer players than a guy who made a couple million dollars in his professional soccer career but they are content to while away their time at the local coffee shop?

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

They are, and the problem with that strategy, especially in a salary cap league with designated players, is that when teams pick the wrong young South American they get stuck paying guys who can't really play, or at least not at the level they are getting paid at. And that's a bad thing in a league with a salary structure like MLS. If you get it right you are good, if you screw it up it hurts for a long time.





No matter how many times you say it that still won't make it true. The notion that adding 10-15 teams won't diminish the quality of play in the league is perhaps the dumbest thing you've ever posted, and considering how high a bar that is to reach that's really saying something.

Austin is Team 27 so they'll naturally get to 28. Lets say they add 12 eventually to get to 40. Teams are allowed 8 international roster spots. You dont think that 96 men between the ages of 20 and 30 who are good enough at soccer to be worth, say $150K-$500K can be found on this planet? As I have been saying, MLS JUST started tapping into the South American market. There are plenty of players to be found there that they can sell on making a few hundred thousand in America where they can excel enough to move to Europe.