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More On Notre Dame’s Illegal GK Substitution For PKs

mike412

Head Coach
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Jul 1, 2001
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Those of us familiar with soccer are aware of the rule that only players on the pitch when the OT period ended may participate in the PK Shootout. That’s why at the recent Euros, England put on two substitutes in the last minutes of the 2nd OT and Italy changed GKs. So they would be eligible for the Shootout.

Notre Dame violated that rule in the ACC tournament by changing GKs for the shootout. On Sunday, I emailed Heather Lyke to ask whether Pitt would file a protest as authorized by Rule 5.8. To her credit, my email was answered on Monday. However, the answer from Associate AD Fumo Kimura was incorrect.
He or she said the substitution was allowed “under NCAA rules.”

It was not. Under Rule 3.8.3, like at every other level of soccer with which I am familiar, for a penalty shootout a GK only may be replaced by a field player who was on the pitch when overtime ended. She may not be replaced by a GK or other player from the bench.

Look, I didn’t expect Pitt to protest the match. Maybe no one on the sideline noticed the change, although the ACC TV crew did and pointed it out (without mentioning the rule I think). Maybe they think it would be unseemly to protest after the match ended. Fine. It is too late to protest now as all protests must be filed within 48 hours of the end of the match.

But, what I did not expect was to be lied to by an Associate AD. If you are going to write me to say the action by ND was “legal under NCAA Rules”, then you damn well better have read the applicable rule. Otherwise, just say that you think a protest would be unseemly since no objection was made by the coaching staff at the time the substitution was made. That actually was my thought.
 
Wow! That’s…umm…not good. Either they asked, and the NCAA/ACC got it wrong, or Pitt got it wrong. Either way, not a good look. Honestly Mike, I’m surprised Waldrum missed it.
 
I think the entire coaching staff either missed it, or they decided that the substitute GK who gave up 3 to Pitt in September would be easier to beat.

Both GKs were pretty weak on the PKs but she had help from the post on the 1 she saved.
 
I think the entire coaching staff either missed it, or they decided that the substitute GK who gave up 3 to Pitt in September would be easier to beat.

Both GKs were pretty weak on the PKs but she had help from the post on the 1 she saved.
I asked that question as well and a Pitt assistant coach told me in the pro's you're correct but in college you can put in anyone on the roster.
 
The NCAA has some bizarre soccer rules, some very different than FIFA. Are you sure the rules you are looking up are the most current version of the rules? It seems unlikely that the ND coach wouldn't know the rule and not sub the new GK on with 1:00 left in OT AND that Waldrum and the Associate AD also would not know the rule.
 
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The NCAA has some bizarre soccer rules, some very different than FIFA. Are you sure the rules you are looking up are the most current version of the rules? It seems unlikely that the ND coach wouldn't know the rule and not sub the new GK on with 1:00 left in OT AND that Waldrum and the Associate AD also would not know the rule.
College has specific subbing rules that are unlike FIFA for sure, but this subbing thing seems to be something that needs clarification. IF you can sub in someone who was not on the field, could you also sub in a player to take a PK that played the second half, came out and sat the rest of the OT? Can a player sub out in 2nd half, sub in in 1st OT, sub out of 1st OT, and back in for 2nd OT? Plenty of subbing scenarios that I don't know the answer to. I figured it was the same rule across all ages and levels, if you aren't on the field at the end of time you cannot be a PK player as goalie or as a kicker.
 
College has specific subbing rules that are unlike FIFA for sure, but this subbing thing seems to be something that needs clarification. IF you can sub in someone who was not on the field, could you also sub in a player to take a PK that played the second half, came out and sat the rest of the OT? Can a player sub out in 2nd half, sub in in 1st OT, sub out of 1st OT, and back in for 2nd OT? Plenty of subbing scenarios that I don't know the answer to. I figured it was the same rule across all ages and levels, if you aren't on the field at the end of time you cannot be a PK player as goalie or as a kicker.
I don't know the answers. My guess is if you can sub on a GK, you could also sub on PK takers. I dont know why the NCAA has to be do darn weird about soccer. I remember hearing that maybe like 20 years ago or so, they didn't even do throw ins. It was kick-ins.

Its not hard. 2 semester model. 1 game per week. Winter break from Thanksgiving until Februaryish as is done in some northern Euro leagues. NCAA Tournament in good weather in May. FIFA rules. This is what the players and coaches want. Well, at least on the men's side
 
No possible way Randy Waldrum missed it. It was legal or Coach didn’t think it mattered.
 
I was watching another game end in PKs. If I recall the top goal scorer for the team didn’t take a PK. If I remember she may have exhausted her subbing in the second half or overtime. We were really surprised to not see her take a PK and didn’t appear to be on the list to take one which seemed very odd. There must have been an issue with subbing where she wasn’t available. This is a top 20 player in the country that you have take a PK. Maybe coaches are unsure of the rules with subbing when 2nd half subbing is different from first half which could also be different with OT.
 
Straight from the 2022-2023 NCAA rule book (available on line as a free download for anyone interested):


3.8.3 Provided the referee is notified in advance, a teammate on the field may
change places with the goalkeeper for the taking of a penalty kick; however,
a goalkeeper substitution from the bench is not permitted.
 
I don't know the answers. My guess is if you can sub on a GK, you could also sub on PK takers. I dont know why the NCAA has to be do darn weird about soccer. I remember hearing that maybe like 20 years ago or so, they didn't even do throw ins. It was kick-ins.

Its not hard. 2 semester model. 1 game per week. Winter break from Thanksgiving until Februaryish as is done in some northern Euro leagues. NCAA Tournament in good weather in May. FIFA rules. This is what the players and coaches want. Well, at least on the men's side
20 years ago there were no kick ins. 30 years ago there were no kick ins.
 
Straight from the 2022-2023 NCAA rule book (available on line as a free download for anyone interested):


3.8.3 Provided the referee is notified in advance, a teammate on the field may
change places with the goalkeeper for the taking of a penalty kick; however,
a goalkeeper substitution from the bench is not permitted.
It can say that but I would think that isnt an updated version even though it says 2022-23. Its very difficult to believe that both coaches, the ref, and the Pitt Associate AD all missed it
 
It can say that but I would think that isnt an updated version even though it says 2022-23. Its very difficult to believe that both coaches, the ref, and the Pitt Associate AD all missed it


It is absolutely the 2022-2023 rule book. The notion that the NCAA puts out a rulebook that everyone knows is wrong is kind of crazy, even by your standards.

I mean seriously, it's on line. It would take them literally five minutes to update it, if it were ever in need of being updated.
 
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It is absolutely the 2022-2023 rule book. The notion that the NCAA puts out a rulebook that everyone knows is wrong is kind of crazy, even by your standards.

I mean seriously, it's on line. It would take them literally five minutes to update it, if it were ever in need of being updated.
I find it hard to believe that EVERYONE missed it and then the Associate AD also got it wrong. I feel like the NCAA made an update or something
 
I downloaded a pdf version and it is a 2022-23 rule book. The rule seems clear. The participants must have been on the field when the OT ended. There is an exception for that in another section covering what they refer to as double elimination regular season tournaments where you can use anyone on the roster. The ACC tourney is neither double elimination nor regular season but maybe they are using that rule for the ACC tournament.

Or maybe Waldrum figured Pitt had a better chance against the goalie who gave up 3 to Pitt in the regular season. The GK who replaced her after that loss only gave up 2 goals in the rest of the season. The goal we got was somewhat of a fluke where she collided with one of her teammates. And the replacement GK let in 4 out of 5 with her one save being a shot that hit the post and rolled to her.
 
Send an email to the acc. Maybe we can get an after the fact admission that a mistake was made.
 
Notre Dame just switched their goal keepers again for the penalty kick shootout vs FSU…
 
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If you look at the box score the starting goalie played 110 minutes. The shoot out goalie played 0 minutes. Obviously there is something allowed here with subbing in a player who didn’t play in reg or OT. What does this mean for a field player that may have exhausted subbing in 2nd half?
 
And then EVERYONE forgot to make a simple update to the rulebook.

Yeah, that seems really likely.
Not saying they forgot to make the rule update. I'm saying one of 2 things happened:

- they changed the rule and updated the official rulebook or added an addendum which was sent to the coaches but didn't update the public online rule book

- its an ACC Tournament rule that wouldn't be in the NCAA rule book.

With ND doing this again, its pretty clear it is within the rules, whatever rules they may be.
 
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Why not roster a 6 ft 6 in basketball player with great hands and feet. Teach her to save PKs. Sub her in just for PKs. I kid of course. But how does this work with field players and other subbing rules?
 
Why not roster a 6 ft 6 in basketball player with great hands and feet. Teach her to save PKs. Sub her in just for PKs. I kid of course. But how does this work with field players and other subbing rules?
I would guess that you can sub on any field player to take a PK with this rule.
 
The rule on double elimination tournaments allows any player on the game roster to take PKs. Maybe although the ACC tourney isn’t double elimination, they are using that rule.

I didn’t see the ND game. Did their GK make any saves in the shootout? I thought 3 of the 5 shots ND took against us were savable, but our GK was just too slow. Did the FSU GK have any saves?
 
The rule on double elimination tournaments allows any player on the game roster to take PKs. Maybe although the ACC tourney isn’t double elimination, they are using that rule.

I didn’t see the ND game. Did their GK make any saves in the shootout? I thought 3 of the 5 shots ND took against us were savable, but our GK was just too slow. Did the FSU GK have any saves?
FSU GK made 2 saves.

"After the Seminoles missed their first PK, Cristina Roque came up huge, denying Notre Dame’s first attempt. Florida State went on to make their next four attempts and Roque came up big once again shutting down the Irish on their fourth attempt, leading to a 4-2 advancement in PKs."
 
I didn’t see the ND game. Did their GK make any saves in the shootout? I thought 3 of the 5 shots ND took against us were savable, but our GK was just too slow. Did the FSU GK have any saves?















Yea, I am sure the ACC is using that rule. That said, has there EVER been a double elimination NCAA soccer tournament? This isnt baseball or softball.
 
I’m not surprised ND only made two PKs. They are risky, but IMO the best PKs are 3 feet high and in a corner. The GK almost always dives so if they guess correctly they have a chance to block a low shot, even if well placed, unless it has a lot of pace. They have no chance on a high shot. Four of the PKs ND took against us were right on the turf and 3 of them didn’t have a lot of pace. Our GK was just too slow and didn’t get down until the shots were passed the goal line.

The danger of shooting high, of course, is skying it over the crossbar.
 
I would guess that you can sub on any field player to take a PK with this rule.
No possible way. You can’t have a player take a kick that wasn’t on the field. If my kids played post season soccer, maybe I’d know the rules for certain. Lol.

I’d ask Waldrum himself but then if he reads this board, I might end up end up in the doghouse like Greg Jacobs on the football board. I’ll reach out to someone else coaches in NCAA D1.
 
No possible way. You can’t have a player take a kick that wasn’t on the field. If my kids played post season soccer, maybe I’d know the rules for certain. Lol.















I’d ask Waldrum himself but then if he reads this board, I might end up end up in the doghouse like Greg Jacobs on the football board. I’ll reach out to someone else coaches in NCAA D1.







What happeJacobs?o Greg Jacob
 
Greg was spreading YOUR conspiracy theories on the pay board. It got back to Pitt's administration who then issued an ultimatum to Chris Peak - "Either you shut down Greg Jacobs or we will shut down Panther-lair.com! Propagating SMF's insanity is a crime against humanity!"

And now you are up-to-date...
 
I was just told by a D1 coach that anyone can participate in a shoot out, they don’t have to be on the field. And the same applies to GK too.
 
Wanted to tell you @Sean Miller Fan , not sure you know or care…but I get the sense you have a kid at Century. Maybe you don’t. But the Guess kid who is our punter has deep roots at century. His mom and dad have been directors at the club and his mom is still the treasurer or registrar. They’re From BVA so maybe you know them. In any event, too bad some of that registration money that passes through moms hands didn’t go toward helping him get an extra 10 yards on her boys net. Then we’d never have to watch the Aussie kick. That said, the Aussie helped seal the game yesterday with that banger.
 
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