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NCAA Tournament going to 90 teams?

Sean Miller Fan

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Oct 30, 2001
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The NCAA panel recommended admitting 25% of teams to its post-season tournaments to give more players the chance to experience the post-season. There is talk that while this makes sense for revenue sports, it shouldn't be applied to men's basketball since it could lead to loss of interest in devaluing the regular season, where ratings are already bad.































I hope this doesn't happen. The NCAAT is pretty perfect the way it is. Maybe they can meet halfway and expand and 8 teams to get to 76 and have 8 teams play for 16 seeds and 8 teams play for that at-large 12 seed. And maybe then they can go to a Fri/Sun, Sat/Mon 1st 2 rounds so that 4 1st round games can be played on Wednesday and 4 on Thursday. Gives fans and teams an extra day to get to Dayton and Bracket Challenges an extra day so they can include the Wed/Thu games. Currently, those challenges dont include those games and they give you the winner. The problem is that due to that, the casual fan doesn't watch.
 
The NCAA panel recommended admitting 25% of teams to its post-season tournaments to give more players the chance to experience the post-season. There is talk that while this makes sense for revenue sports, it shouldn't be applied to men's basketball since it could lead to loss of interest in devaluing the regular season, where ratings are already bad.































I hope this doesn't happen. The NCAAT is pretty perfect the way it is. Maybe they can meet halfway and expand and 8 teams to get to 76 and have 8 teams play for 16 seeds and 8 teams play for that at-large 12 seed. And maybe then they can go to a Fri/Sun, Sat/Mon 1st 2 rounds so that 4 1st round games can be played on Wednesday and 4 on Thursday. Gives fans and teams an extra day to get to Dayton and Bracket Challenges an extra day so they can include the Wed/Thu games. Currently, those challenges dont include those games and they give you the winner. The problem is that due to that, the casual fan doesn't watch.
Basketball is already above 25% in the post season when the conference tournaments are factored in. I think they acknowledged that in some of the follow ups.
 
It will make no difference at all. You are fooling yourself if you think that even team number 49 has a chance to win the thing.
 
it could lead to loss of interest in devaluing the regular season, where ratings are already bad.
It will make no difference at all. The point is it will not change the value of regular season games, that is a point directly aimed at your assertion.
 
I would be okay with expansion if they are going to give a 2nd auto-bid to the smaller leagues. Allow the regular season league champ in if they do not win their conference tourney. If the regular season champ also wins conference tourney, then there's a bit of a dilemma about who to pick for the 2nd league bid.
 
People have suggested all the teams make it before.
I hate the idea of an expansion
 
I would be okay with expansion if they are going to give a 2nd auto-bid to the smaller leagues. Allow the regular season league champ in if they do not win their conference tourney. If the regular season champ also wins conference tourney, then there's a bit of a dilemma about who to pick for the 2nd league bid.


The big schools are not going to vote to expand the tournament by adding more teams like Alabama State and St. Francis. If they do it, it will be for one, and only one, reason. To get more big schools into the tournament.
 
I would be okay with expansion if they are going to give a 2nd auto-bid to the smaller leagues. Allow the regular season league champ in if they do not win their conference tourney. If the regular season champ also wins conference tourney, then there's a bit of a dilemma about who to pick for the 2nd league bid.

Nobody wants to see more of those teams. They are lucky the P6 lets them dance with them. I do think those conferences should give their auto bid to the winner of a 1 off game between their regular season champ and tournament champ. If the regular season champ wins the tournament, then they get the bid. Too many 5 and 6 seeds from these bad leagues getting in and getting dusted.
 
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The big schools are not going to vote to expand the tournament by adding more teams like Alabama State and St. Francis. If they do it, it will be for one, and only one, reason. To get more big schools into the tournament.
If it were up to me (and dammit - why isn’t it?) I’d recommend leaving the tournament where it is. It’s a wonderful event and I do think it can be spoiled by trying to make it bigger.

Perhaps the only expansion I could get on board with is adding one more site for adding 4 more round 1 games. This would put a play-in into all four quadrants of the bracket for 76 teams total. Basically it’s just adding 8 bubble teams. I’d be ok with that but I’d hate for it to be more.
 
If it were up to me (and dammit - why isn’t it?) I’d recommend leaving the tournament where it is. It’s a wonderful event and I do think it can be spoiled by trying to make it bigger.

Perhaps the only expansion I could get on board with is adding one more site for adding 4 more round 1 games. This would put a play-in into all four quadrants of the bracket for 76 teams total. Basically it’s just adding 8 bubble teams. I’d be ok with that but I’d hate for it to be more.

Yea and if they made more of an event out of it (ie moving it to Wed/Thu) so people who enter pools would have to pick those games, it would be pretty cool.
 
Yea and if they made more of an event out of it (ie moving it to Wed/Thu) so people who enter pools would have to pick those games, it would be pretty cool.


Moving the games to Wednesday and Thursday would not make more of an event out of it, and I guarantee you that nearly all bracket contests would still exclude those games.
 
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Moving the games to Wednesday and Thursday would not make more of an event out of it, and I guarantee you that nearly all bracket contests would still exclude those games.
That’s why I’d favor only expanding Round 1 - it wouldn’t screw anything up.
 
That’s why I’d favor only expanding Round 1 - it wouldn’t screw anything up.


All things being equal, I'd be happy if they just got rid of the first four altogether and went back to 64 teams. But there is approximately the same chance of that happening as there is for you or I to be Pitt's leading scorer on Saturday.
 
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All things being equal, I'd be happy if they just got rid of the first four altogether and went back to 64 teams. But there is approximately the same chance of that happening as there is for you or I to be Pitt's leading scorer on Saturday.
That would be my preference too but if they must expand I could live with 76.
 
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The big schools are not going to vote to expand the tournament by adding more teams like Alabama State and St. Francis. If they do it, it will be for one, and only one, reason. To get more big schools into the tournament.
Agree with your reasoning.

As I have proposed in various threads for some years. I would favor the top 64 teams by computer consensus getting in. Then all auto bid league champs not within the top 64 selected all put into a play-in round.

Doubt that would enlarge the tourney all the way to 90 teams cause I don't believe there are 26 auto-bid leagues whose champ would be outside the top 64.
 
Moving the games to Wednesday and Thursday would not make more of an event out of it, and I guarantee you that nearly all bracket contests would still exclude those games.

Don't these "official" bracket challenges like ESPN, CBS, need approval from the NCAA? If so, it would seem easy to only give them approval if they include the Wed/Thu opening round games. Beyond that, perhaps the extra day to decompress from Selection Sunday allows fans to get more into these games. I feel like you hear the brackets and then 15 minutes later, the Dayton games start. Its too soon. I'd probably also stagger the start times at 2 arenas on 2 networks....probably at Wright State and Dayton. I having 2 games running at similar times would get more people to watch. Like 6:30/9 at Dayton and 7/9:30 at Wright State.
 
Everyone gets a trophy mentality - Don’t want anyone in life to experience defeat.

Leave it at 68. Anything else is just dumb. That’s what the NIT is for - the 2nd level teams that can win their own trophy
 
Everyone gets a trophy mentality - Don’t want anyone in life to experience defeat.

Leave it at 68. Anything else is just dumb. That’s what the NIT is for - the 2nd level teams that can win their own trophy

I think 68 is fine but remember, they are giving out participation trophies in pro sports also as like 50% of the teams make the playoffs. I always ask why anyone watches Penguins regular season when you know they are going to make the playoffs and seeding/home ice doesnt matter as much. The NHL and NBA play 80+ games only to eliminate 14-16 teams. NCAA Basketball plays 31 games to eliminate 290 teams.
 
Don't these "official" bracket challenges like ESPN, CBS, need approval from the NCAA? If so, it would seem easy to only give them approval if they include the Wed/Thu opening round games.


I think it's possible that they COULD. I think it is extremely unlikely that they WOULD. As is evidenced by the fact that they have never done so in the past.

Those games (the bracket games, not the first four games) are a big helper in driving the popularity of the tournament. Why on earth would the NCAA want to do something that screws that up? No one cares about Texas Southern playing Texas A&M Corpus Christi. They don't care if it happens in November, they don't care if it happens in March. The day that you have thousands (or more) of fans who can't submit their brackets because they didn't make their picks before the big Wednesday night Wright State - Bryant game is the day that lots of people lose some level of interest in the tournament, especially the first weekend when everyone hopes they have a chance.
 
I think it's possible that they COULD. I think it is extremely unlikely that they WOULD. As is evidenced by the fact that they have never done so in the past.

Those games (the bracket games, not the first four games) are a big helper in driving the popularity of the tournament. Why on earth would the NCAA want to do something that screws that up? No one cares about Texas Southern playing Texas A&M Corpus Christi. They don't care if it happens in November, they don't care if it happens in March. The day that you have thousands (or more) of fans who can't submit their brackets because they didn't make their picks before the big Wednesday night Wright State - Bryant game is the day that lots of people lose some level of interest in the tournament, especially the first weekend when everyone hopes they have a chance.

We are talking about people submitting their picks 17 hours earlier. Thursday is an arbitrarily picked day anyway. If they normally started the main tournament on Friday and we were talking about moving it up a day, you could always say people couldn't get their picks in by then. I think if they did expand, eventually you have to move it back a day and really market those first games. Half the games will be like Maryland vs USC and if you always have one of those games going, people only need to switch over to the 16 seed game when that game is close at the end.
 
Yea and if they made more of an event out of it (ie moving it to Wed/Thu) so people who enter pools would have to pick those games, it would be pretty cool.
Pools are a huge reason for the success of the NCAA tournament in attracting casual fans and making an event out of that first weekend for bars. Anything that messes with that is a huge risk for the game.
 
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Devaluing the regular season? It's always the same to me, I watch every minute if every Pitt game and nothing else :)
 
Pools are a huge reason for the success of the NCAA tournament in attracting casual fans and making an event out of that first weekend for bars. Anything that messes with that is a huge risk for the game.

You would be moving the submission deadline up line 18 hours and in return, you get way more eyeballs on these extra games. Seems like a win/win. Not only that, but 1st Round ratings would be higher on Saturday afternoon as opposed to Thursday afternoon. 8 2nd Round games played at 5/7:30, 6/8:30, 7/8:30, 8/10:30 on Monday. This also gives the following Saturday 4 Sweet 16 games in their own window.
 
Nobody wants to see more of those teams. They are lucky the P6 lets them dance with them. I do think those conferences should give their auto bid to the winner of a 1 off game between their regular season champ and tournament champ. If the regular season champ wins the tournament, then they get the bid. Too many 5 and 6 seeds from these bad leagues getting in and getting dusted.
What do you mean? People love seeing those teams, like St. Peters last year, and #16 UMBC taking out #1 Virginia and hanging tough with Kansas State in the 2nd round a couple years back, a lot of those big upsets from 14, 15 and 16 seeds are remembered more than Final 4 teams. And the non-P6 teams that reach the Final 4 are legendary, GMU, Loyola-Chicago, VCU, Butler. Wichita State are remembered, nobody remembers when Duke or Kentucky makes it for the 15th time.
 
What do you mean? People love seeing those teams, like St. Peters last year, and #16 UMBC taking out #1 Virginia and hanging tough with Kansas State in the 2nd round a couple years back, a lot of those big upsets from 14, 15 and 16 seeds are remembered more than Final 4 teams. And the non-P6 teams that reach the Final 4 are legendary, GMU, Loyola-Chicago, VCU, Butler. Wichita State are remembered, nobody remembers when Duke or Kentucky makes it for the 15th time.

I'm not taking them away. Just not adding anymore.
 
I'm not taking them away. Just not adding anymore.
You said this.

"Nobody wants to see more of those teams. They are lucky the P6 lets them dance with them."

Made it sound like you thought they shouldn't be there. Most people like to see the "best" teams win, the ironic part is when the best teams win, nobody remembers that, but when 11-seed Nova beat #1 Georgetown in 1985, it's like the most remembered game of all time.
 
You said this.

"Nobody wants to see more of those teams. They are lucky the P6 lets them dance with them."

Made it sound like you thought they shouldn't be there. Most people like to see the "best" teams win, the ironic part is when the best teams win, nobody remembers that, but when 11-seed Nova beat #1 Georgetown in 1985, it's like the most remembered game of all time.


But as has been pointed out to you before, sometimes including the actual numbers, more people watch when Kentucky plays North Carolina than when George Mason plays well, heck, North Carolina.

People may remember the upsets more, but people actually watch the "best" teams more.
 
But as has been pointed out to you before, sometimes including the actual numbers, more people watch when Kentucky plays North Carolina than when George Mason plays well, heck, North Carolina.

People may remember the upsets more, but people actually watch the "best" teams more.
As pointed out to me? Didn't need to point it out, I get it, but I personally watch more often when it's not the blue bloods. watching Kentucky/UNC basketball is not something interesting to me, how could it be, I want them both to lose. But thank God the NCAA Tournament lets the nobodies play and then mess up the TV ratings by getting to where they aren't supposed to go, that's why it's a great event, the nobodies can ruin the TV ratings and the networks can't do anything about it.
 
As pointed out to me? Didn't need to point it out, I get it, but I personally watch more often when it's not the blue bloods. watching Kentucky/UNC basketball is not something interesting to me, how could it be, I want them both to lose. But thank God the NCAA Tournament lets the nobodies play and then mess up the TV ratings by getting to where they aren't supposed to go, that's why it's a great event, the nobodies can ruin the TV ratings and the networks can't do anything about it.
Why do you like watching bad basketball?
 
As pointed out to me? Didn't need to point it out, I get it, but I personally watch more often when it's not the blue bloods. watching Kentucky/UNC basketball is not something interesting to me, how could it be, I want them both to lose. But thank God the NCAA Tournament lets the nobodies play and then mess up the TV ratings by getting to where they aren't supposed to go, that's why it's a great event, the nobodies can ruin the TV ratings and the networks can't do anything about it.

I enjoy watching a Kentucky/St. Peter's game. I wouldn’t cut down on the number of these teams that make the tournament but I also wouldn’t add any. America would prefer Kentucky vs Ohio State to SPC. Ratings are higher when 2 P6 programs play.
 
Why do you like watching bad basketball?
I don't think it's bad, I like watching a nobody takes on a better team. In the regular season, I watch ONLY Pitt and UMBC (sometimes) games on TV, the UMBC thing is because I live ten minutes from their campus, so I've come to like them, I never watch the top teams, unless they play Pitt. Seriously, it's because since I want BOTH TO LOSE it's hard to watch, and their games aren't really any more exciting than a game between lesser teams.
 
But as has been pointed out to you before, sometimes including the actual numbers, more people watch when Kentucky plays North Carolina than when George Mason plays well, heck, North Carolina.

People may remember the upsets more, but people actually watch the "best" teams more.
You’re certainly not wrong. I just wonder at what point these numbers of people watching a given game are taken.

More people are gonna watch two name brands play at the start, but when St Peter’s and Kentucky went to OT, I’m sure the large majority changed to it, I know I did but certainly didn’t watch the first half.
 
You’re certainly not wrong. I just wonder at what point these numbers of people watching a given game are taken.

More people are gonna watch two name brands play at the start, but when St Peter’s and Kentucky went to OT, I’m sure the large majority changed to it, I know I did but certainly didn’t watch the first half.
Good point. I watched UMBC vs. Virginia from the start, but If I didn't live 2 miles away from UMBC I probably wouldn't have tuned in until I heard the 16 seed was about to win. I probably would have watched an 8-9 or 7-10 matchup or maybe nothing at all.
 
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You’re certainly not wrong. I just wonder at what point these numbers of people watching a given game are taken.

More people are gonna watch two name brands play at the start, but when St Peter’s and Kentucky went to OT, I’m sure the large majority changed to it, I know I did but certainly didn’t watch the first half.


The ratings that get reported are the average number of people watching. The networks who get the ratings also get them broken down by quarter hours, so they know exactly how many people are tuning in or tuning out as the game goes on. Typically that doesn't get reported, not because they don't know, but because most people don't really care.
 
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