Ncaa
- Thread starter thom67
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What's Pitt S&C program like? They appeared to be gassed in all of the losses tonight, and quite honestly, didn't seem to be as strong as their opponents. I'm new to following wrestling, so take my observation with a grain of salt if it's irrelevant, but i would be interested in an informed answer if anyone can offer one. Thanks.
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133 is loaded and you need a go to move which he doesn't have yet but if he develops some offense he will be fine.
Nino was disappointing but he is young and will get there.
This was another tournament of what has become an unfortunate Pitt tradition: A poor overall result with particularly poor wrestling in consolation bouts. Some teams make sure their wrestlers treat them as important, but Pitt over the last 20 years has been really bad in consolation matches. This year, Talib won 2. The other four wrestlers went 0-4. It has become systemic in the program. And, to have a performance like this in Pittsburgh, where you would think you could expect a great effort, is doubly disheartening.
Good habits are passed on by team leaders. So are bad habits. This team needs a real change in thinking, from the top down.
Good habits are passed on by team leaders. So are bad habits. This team needs a real change in thinking, from the top down.
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Seeds are misleading...not making excuses but Pitt wasn't exactly the favorite in any of the matches this evening. Disappointing for sure but I promise next year will be much better
Right. Coach Gavin has the team going in the right direction. Our guys did seem incredibly gassed in the consolation bouts. Wait till next year.
I expected 3 or 4 to have a chance at making All America. I thought 2 would succeed at it
I was expecting 2 or 3 AAs too. Next year will be better. I wouldnt be surprised if Matthews challenges that status next year too. Micky and Taleb will be on a mission next year. I expect them both to step up further. These near misses will drive them
Seeds can be funny. Lewis from VT 8th seed just beat two best wrestlers at his weight. This was very exciting as always.
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Lewis should not have been an 8th seed. He had not wrestled the top guys, but was junior world champion last summer beating Marinelli. Some of the seeding was just insane this year. Marinelli had to wrestle Joe Smith in 1st round because Smith was seeded 33. Smith was a 2 time all American at 174 who came down a weight just for the big 12 championships. Then he gets Lewis(8 seed and eventual champ) in quarters.
All about match ups, and when you have those match ups. I thought the marinelli smith thing was awful. But, that's the way it goes unfortunately.
Seeding is based off your year in the weight class. You cannot start bringing in freestyle results that have nothing to do with college wrestling or the season. You cannot wrestle all year at a weight class and right before you conference tourney drop down or move up then not even win that tourney and expect a good seed.
Pitt lost to some higher seeds, but lost to a bunch of lower seeds.
As you say, seeding exists based on results. I don't buy crazy seeding as an explanation for say an 8 losing to a 26
Great question. I logged on to ask the same. I loved it, but I love wrestling in little high school gyms and stinky wrestling rooms. As far as this tournament goes, getting into the arena for the first session was awful. They fixed that. I also didn’t love rustling through a black curtain to get to the men’s room.
I work downtown, so I think I had a little advantage finding parking and places to hang out between sessions. Tickets were hard to come by because of the proximity to a large number of D1 wrestling schools.
Do you think we can get this again? I would like to read your opinions, especially out-of-towners and those who have gone to numerous NCAA tournaments. My first was last year in Cleveland.
I work downtown, so I think I had a little advantage finding parking and places to hang out between sessions. Tickets were hard to come by because of the proximity to a large number of D1 wrestling schools.
Do you think we can get this again? I would like to read your opinions, especially out-of-towners and those who have gone to numerous NCAA tournaments. My first was last year in Cleveland.
Anyone who was expecting more than 2 AAs for Pitt this year had way too high of expectations and was probably being a bit of a homer. Going in I thought Micky, Nino, and Thomas each had a good chance at AA but only thought 1 or 2 would. Micky and Nino are only RSFR and that is tough to expect both to get there no matter there ranking or seed. Phillippi had some really good wins but really struggled to generate offense against the top 10 types he wrestled and that happened this weekend. If he is able to develop some got to offense he will be a real threat next year. People can say Nino disappointed and his last 2 matches weren't great but he lost to 2 really good wrestlers and that will happen but he will be better next year.
As for the team score, the top 20 was going to be tough but the top 25 would have been realistic.
As for the future, Pitt is recruiting well and bringing in talent but turning around a program doesn't happen overnight and yes next year will be better but it still won't top 10. Mathews is talented but expecting him to AA next year is probably be a bit premature, he will still be a RSFR in a tough weight class.
Overall the team race next year will closer and depending on who PSU decided to redshirt Iowa and Okie State could be the favorites.
As for the team score, the top 20 was going to be tough but the top 25 would have been realistic.
As for the future, Pitt is recruiting well and bringing in talent but turning around a program doesn't happen overnight and yes next year will be better but it still won't top 10. Mathews is talented but expecting him to AA next year is probably be a bit premature, he will still be a RSFR in a tough weight class.
Overall the team race next year will closer and depending on who PSU decided to redshirt Iowa and Okie State could be the favorites.
I had no problems but like another poster said day 1 had some problems overall. I stayed at the Double Tree so getting to the arena was easy. Since I moved to the other side of the state I don't get to the city as much but I always have a good time there.
Who said anything about Matthews making AA next year? I said the he could challenge for it, which is not the same thing. I expect him to do what Nino did this season, which isn't out of line at all
I don’t see Ohio State being in title contention next year. They lose a lot of seniors, and as someone mentioned, they have a history of their wrestlers not improving.
It really will depend on what PSU decides to do. They lose two champions (3 if Cassar doesn’t return), but have two runner ups and 2 AAs back. That’s a lot of potential points returning. They redshirted a few guys this year, including a 4 time Iowa state champion at 125. They also have a guy who wrestled some at 157 when Nolf was hurt last season. Even though he wrestled at 157 out of necessity, he only weighed 145 or so. I imagine he has bulked up in preparation for Nolf graduating. If Brooks decides to compete, I can’t see Cael not going for 5 straight by redshirting a lot.
It really will depend on what PSU decides to do. They lose two champions (3 if Cassar doesn’t return), but have two runner ups and 2 AAs back. That’s a lot of potential points returning. They redshirted a few guys this year, including a 4 time Iowa state champion at 125. They also have a guy who wrestled some at 157 when Nolf was hurt last season. Even though he wrestled at 157 out of necessity, he only weighed 145 or so. I imagine he has bulked up in preparation for Nolf graduating. If Brooks decides to compete, I can’t see Cael not going for 5 straight by redshirting a lot.
I watched and thought about things and I want to add my reflections.
Although I was hopeful about gaining some AA's this year, I think the result is about right for realistic expectations. There is a big difference between getting up for a few big matchups during the dual season and putting up a consistent performance over three days, against talented, intense, opponents with different wrestling style.
MIcki and Nino need to have four perfect matches with no mistakes. They both have limited offenses and on top of that, they don't have any go-to move/threat that concerns people to put pressure on them and make an opponent hesitant.
Expecting four matches to have one take down and a ride out - in this 133 Lbs field in particular - is a tall order. Heck, the match Micki lost this year in the duals was because a single penalty point for clasped hands, screwed up his strategy and he couldn't come back from it.
Meech is just inexperienced against big guys that understand leverage and pressure and strategy. His work ethic and athleticism are admirable...and as good as anyone in the weight. Those qualities have been his go-to solutions up to this point, but he needs to start thinking more instead of just reacting and attacking. He needs to be selective and smarter with those skills. He needs to watch Cassar more.
Plus he looked exhausted because of his anxiety. He was fighting himself and his opponent.
There are three other points I have thought about. First, is digital technology. The digital video recorders and the internet have changed scouting for everyone. If you have a weakness, it will be exposed. (Can you say RBY and his left hand behind his back!! Micic taught him something about DeSanto at last years NCAA's). Its made a huge difference with Taleb since his sophomore year. Expect it to have an effect on MIcki and NIno next year.
Second, I would not be surprised if there was a plateau or even a step back a little next year - even though I think the team will be better. There is the scouting point I made above. There is the fact that Pitt will not be sneaking up on anyone next year. There is the fact that Pitt was remarkably healthy (Jake Wenzel aside) last year. I do not believe Pitt has the depth just yet, to maintain production if certain weights are effected by injury. Imagine what this year would have looked like if it was Meech that was out.
Finally, since Tyler Wilps placed in 2014 and 2015, there has been a drought of AA's at Pitt. The guys that are in the room now, have not watched the success occurring at the NCAA tournament. There are red shirt freshman essentially, re inventing the tradition and establishing expectations. It is always more difficult to be the first to scale the mountain.
Although I was hopeful about gaining some AA's this year, I think the result is about right for realistic expectations. There is a big difference between getting up for a few big matchups during the dual season and putting up a consistent performance over three days, against talented, intense, opponents with different wrestling style.
MIcki and Nino need to have four perfect matches with no mistakes. They both have limited offenses and on top of that, they don't have any go-to move/threat that concerns people to put pressure on them and make an opponent hesitant.
Expecting four matches to have one take down and a ride out - in this 133 Lbs field in particular - is a tall order. Heck, the match Micki lost this year in the duals was because a single penalty point for clasped hands, screwed up his strategy and he couldn't come back from it.
The football analogy would be to expect to run the ball three yards at a time starting from your 20 yard line, every series of every game. To run 27 plays over 80 yards, and not expect a fumble or a penalty, or a run for less than three yards...against a team stacking the box...is not going to happen. One would love to have a legitimate deep vertical threat, but at least have a short passing threat!
Nino is able to pressure opponents with his pace, but if he gets down a point or two, or if the referee isn't calling stalling, that threat goes away.
Taleb has the ability to score points out of no where, but it is always a counter move. He cant generate anything on his own...and...if anyone scouts him to stay out of his barrel roll...he looks impotent. Nino is able to pressure opponents with his pace, but if he gets down a point or two, or if the referee isn't calling stalling, that threat goes away.
Meech is just inexperienced against big guys that understand leverage and pressure and strategy. His work ethic and athleticism are admirable...and as good as anyone in the weight. Those qualities have been his go-to solutions up to this point, but he needs to start thinking more instead of just reacting and attacking. He needs to be selective and smarter with those skills. He needs to watch Cassar more.
Plus he looked exhausted because of his anxiety. He was fighting himself and his opponent.
There are three other points I have thought about. First, is digital technology. The digital video recorders and the internet have changed scouting for everyone. If you have a weakness, it will be exposed. (Can you say RBY and his left hand behind his back!! Micic taught him something about DeSanto at last years NCAA's). Its made a huge difference with Taleb since his sophomore year. Expect it to have an effect on MIcki and NIno next year.
Second, I would not be surprised if there was a plateau or even a step back a little next year - even though I think the team will be better. There is the scouting point I made above. There is the fact that Pitt will not be sneaking up on anyone next year. There is the fact that Pitt was remarkably healthy (Jake Wenzel aside) last year. I do not believe Pitt has the depth just yet, to maintain production if certain weights are effected by injury. Imagine what this year would have looked like if it was Meech that was out.
Finally, since Tyler Wilps placed in 2014 and 2015, there has been a drought of AA's at Pitt. The guys that are in the room now, have not watched the success occurring at the NCAA tournament. There are red shirt freshman essentially, re inventing the tradition and establishing expectations. It is always more difficult to be the first to scale the mountain.
So while I hope to see the list of AA's start growing next year, I think 2021 is where the Pitt program will START to really gain traction. How long it takes to get into the top ten - only time will tell.
I think we should all feel very good about the young guys in this program. I think we should all feel really good about the process installed and how fast Gavin and Co are bringing things together. There are however, still several important pieces that need to drop in to place for Pitt to consistently break in to the top ten at the NCAA tournament - particularly with the RTC and its effect on recruiting. I think an excited patients is in order for next year.
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I agree a100% that 2021 is the year Pitt will be looking at to take a step forward. Micky and Nino will he juniors, Mathews will have a year under him and this recruiting class should all be redshirt freshman.
Penn State will be very interesting next year, they could either be on of the favorites or top 5ish depending on who redshirts.
Potential lineups could be
125 - Teske
133 - RBY
141 - Lee
149 - Verkleeren
157 - Berge
165 - Joseph
174 - Hall
184 - Brooks
197 - Beard
285 - Cassar
That is a National Championship lineup but people in the know say Hall is redshirting no matter. So you could see RBY, Hall, Brooks, and Beard all redshirt and Jospeh takes an Olympic redshirt and then Penn State makes a run at the scoring record on 2021.
Who takes an Olympic redshirt this year will be fun to watch, there are ton of big time guys who are good enough now to make an Olympic team.
Hall was supposed to redshirt as a true freshman. They burned his redshirt part way through the season because of an injury. Winning the NCAAs as a true freshman and then losing to Valencia the next two years, I can understand him wanting to redshirt and prepare for the Olympic trials.
I thought it was interesting that they redshirted Teske this year when 125 was their only real weakness. But Cael has a plan and he sticks to it barring injuries. The one year they didn’t win the NCAAs, he redshirted Nolf and Nickal, among others, and possibly could have won the title if they had wrestled.
Not sure what happened to Seth Nevills, the youngest of the four brothers. He committed to PSU as a junior but wasn’t on their roster in what should have been his freshman year. He was a 4 time California state champion — 220 in 9th grade and then 285 for 3 years. And I don’t believe he lost a match in 4 years. Another brother, AJ, also committed to PSU but ended up transferring to Fresno State.
I thought it was interesting that they redshirted Teske this year when 125 was their only real weakness. But Cael has a plan and he sticks to it barring injuries. The one year they didn’t win the NCAAs, he redshirted Nolf and Nickal, among others, and possibly could have won the title if they had wrestled.
Not sure what happened to Seth Nevills, the youngest of the four brothers. He committed to PSU as a junior but wasn’t on their roster in what should have been his freshman year. He was a 4 time California state champion — 220 in 9th grade and then 285 for 3 years. And I don’t believe he lost a match in 4 years. Another brother, AJ, also committed to PSU but ended up transferring to Fresno State.
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Nice post ...... agree that in 2-3 years Pitt should have a really solid program on the rise.
A question ..... who is the strength and conditioning coach for Pitt wrestling and what experience does that coach have specifically with wrestlers ? ...... not blaming the strength and conditioning coach for anything but think it would be important to have someone who is very familiar with what wrestlers need in that area .... Penn State wrestlers really like their strength and conditioning coach from what I hear and feel he is very helpful to them ..... obviously recruiting great talent, coaching, RTC, strength and conditioning, etc. are all very important in the development of the wrestling program.
The most interesting thing about PSU is they have there wrestlers cut less weight than most programs.
If you go back to the Clarion Open, you will see that Seth is grey shirting. You will also see that Meech solidly beat him.
With the limited number of scholarships in wrestling, it amazes me how PSU is able to have so many wrestlers from around the country, who are purportedly paying 50% or 75% of the tuition and fees charged to out of state students. Nickal is from Texas; the two Nevills from California; Hall from Minnesota; Lee from Indiana I think; Berge from Minnesota; Bravo-Young from Arizona; Austin Hoopes from Wyoming; Pipher from Colorado; Rasheed from NY; Cassar from NJ; and Teske from Iowa. That is 12 wrestlers all of whom have the qualifications to get scholarships. Add to that the PA kids like Nolf,
Joseph and Verkleeren, and that is at least 15 kids sharing scholarships. I can see PA kids taking a 1/2 scholarship and paying the balance, but that is a lot of money for out of state kids.
Either there are a lot of wealthy families producing excellent wrestlers, or they are all excellent students with academic scholarships, or there is something fishy going on involving the alumni who bankroll the program. It’s just too many out of state wrestlers to be Kosher.
Joseph and Verkleeren, and that is at least 15 kids sharing scholarships. I can see PA kids taking a 1/2 scholarship and paying the balance, but that is a lot of money for out of state kids.
Either there are a lot of wealthy families producing excellent wrestlers, or they are all excellent students with academic scholarships, or there is something fishy going on involving the alumni who bankroll the program. It’s just too many out of state wrestlers to be Kosher.
Nolf is on a full academic ride.
The 9.9 gets divided between 12-15 guys depending on the year like most schools
Now, are promises made about working NLWC camps after they graduate, probably but it is not illegal just a little gray.
Promises of work after eligibility is against ncaa rules unless all students are also given the same chance of getting those jobs.
Promise probably wasn't the right word, if they want to work camps they are not told no.
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