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NcNeese State Game & Other Dribbles ...

DT_PITT

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** I’ve been at this duty of writing post-game “dribbles” for almost two decades now.

** It’s almost always been a true labor of love, and during the best of times, it was hardly a labor at all.

** But for as much of a challenge as this season will be for our Panthers, I must confess it’s already been quite a challenge to write about it too.

** And for this particular game, it’s so darn difficult to even know just what to think, let alone what to write.

** The crowd didn’t know what to think either, I believe. Without the Zoo and few in attendance, it was so painfully quiet, the atmosphere was almost surreal.

** So I’ll start in the easiest and most obvious place, which is to congratulate our Panthers for a win. Not just a win, but their first win of the year with a comfortable margin at the end.

** So comfortable that we even got to enjoy the entrance of our stable of walk-ons. That’s always an enjoyable thing to watch.

** It’s also enjoyable to watch your team celebrate and enjoy when things are going well. And with threes raining from everywhere in the second half, there was certainly that to enjoy.

** But it would be less than honest to suggest that this was actually much of an enjoyable game.

** Of course, it started with a big loud ugly thud with the sight of Ryan Luther sporting a walking boot. I’m hoping for the best, but I fear that Ryan is looking at another injury just like last year.

** The time that could be missed by Luther is bad enough on its own, but when he returned for action last season, he was never really himself.

** Still, I went into the game looking forward to seeing more time from Terrell Brown. In fact, I was even conjuring a holiday delivery themed post centered around the idea of “what Brown can do for you!”

** But that wasn’t to be. Brown didn’t really deliver. Neither did Peace nor Kene whose minutes where increased in the absence of Ryan.

** In fact, this trio combined only for 5 points. 5 points against the #312 team in college basketball.

** Even Shamiel failed to make his mark in the paint.

** Truth be told, no one made much of a mark at all in the first half of the game.

** That goes for both teams. I can’t recall many halves when both teams combined to shoot 23% from the field. It was likely the worst first half on basketball we’ve ever seen at the Pete.

** The second half wasn’t actually all that much better actually, except that the Panthers got on a roll hitting the extremely wide open three pointers they too often missed in the first half.

** In the first half, I kinda chuckled at the three made by Kham Davis. It’s not an exaggeration to suggest that he had about two full seconds to take the shot. I commented at the time that the shot was so open that I think that I could have even made it.

** So let’s give full credit to Kham because he takes and makes good shots, and doesn’t force tougher ones.

** I had a hard time understanding just how McNeese State was trying to defend our Panthers on the perimeter, or should I say, not defend our Panthers on the perimeter.

** All the same, I was having an equally difficult time understanding just why we ended up taking 33 threes against a team as lowly as the Cowboys of the Southland Conference.

** Along those lines, I am having a difficult time trying to understand just exactly what Coach Stallings wants from his offense.

** At times, there is some really decent ball movement, which too often seemed to end up with another three launched from the perimeter instead of pursuing better options.

** And if it’s missed, there’s not really anyone anywhere close to the paint to pursue an offensive rebound.

** Am I the only one who is more than a little troubled that Kene and Terrell combined for 0-5 from three point land, but only 2 offensive rebounds?

** Is that really the kind of offense the staff is looking for?

** The good news is that the staff has Marcus Carr to run the offense, and just like one would hope in a game like this, Marcus was clearly this game’s most talented player. It wasn’t really even close.

** The other good news is that this was indeed a 21 point win. When the Cowboys cut it to six near the 12 minute mark in the second half, I feared the Panthers might be in store for another unwelcome dogfight. But five more threes in the next few minutes ended this show.

** I’ll end with a more positive note, suggesting that it took the Panthers a little time to figure just how they wanted to play without Ryan. That’s understandable.

** They will have another game to work on this Tuesday, against the worst team in Division I Hoops. But after that Towson offers a much more formidable challenge, as or course does any team in the ACC.

** Hopefully, we can work on a little bit of an inside game. Because without Ryan, I can’t think shooting 33 threes will get the job done.
 
I will admit I admire your efforts and persistence. This will be tough considering the news on Luther moving on.

But I look on the bright side, we have been so humbled, just think of how much appreciative we will all feel the next time we eek into the NCAA's!!!!!
 
You're right about all those threes....but that's a Stallings offense. The point that you might want to ask is...what is it about his offense that actually gets so many open looks from
3 land? It's not just poor defense from the likes of the McNesse's of the basketball world.
It's obvious that they work on that, you can see it in the offensive sets during the games.

On the other hand I would however agree, that we should have looked to exploit our very obvious height advantage against this opponent. The problem is our height was the only advantage on the inside. Our Bigs just are no threat inside. None of them have post moves,
none of them power to the hoop, none of them have second and third attempts on offensive rebounds.......OFFENSIVE REBOUNDS???.... LOL they simply do not exist with this team. I have to criticize coaching for that, because that can be taught in practice. If it were,
we would see glimpses of it in games, and would see improvement in the effort on the glass.
 
** I’ve been at this duty of writing post-game “dribbles” for almost two decades now.

** It’s almost always been a true labor of love, and during the best of times, it was hardly a labor at all.

** But for as much of a challenge as this season will be for our Panthers, I must confess it’s already been quite a challenge to write about it too.

** And for this particular game, it’s so darn difficult to even know just what to think, let alone what to write.

** The crowd didn’t know what to think either, I believe. Without the Zoo and few in attendance, it was so painfully quiet, the atmosphere was almost surreal.

** So I’ll start in the easiest and most obvious place, which is to congratulate our Panthers for a win. Not just a win, but their first win of the year with a comfortable margin at the end.

** So comfortable that we even got to enjoy the entrance of our stable of walk-ons. That’s always an enjoyable thing to watch.

** It’s also enjoyable to watch your team celebrate and enjoy when things are going well. And with threes raining from everywhere in the second half, there was certainly that to enjoy.

** But it would be less than honest to suggest that this actually an enjoyable game.

** Of course, it started with a big loud ugly thud with the sight of Ryan Luther sporting a walking boot. I’m hoping for the best, but I fear that Ryan is looking at another injury just like last year.

** The time that could be missed by Luther is bad enough on its own, but when he returned for action last season, he was never really himself.

** Still, I went into the game looking forward to seeing more time from Terrell Brown. In fact, I was even conjuring a holiday delivery themed post centered around the idea of “what Brown can do for you!”

** But that wasn’t to be. Brown didn’t really deliver. Neither did Peace nor Kene whose minutes where increased in the absence of Ryan.

** In fact, this trio combined only for 5 points. 5 points against the #312 team in college basketball.

** Even Shamiel failed to make his mark in the paint.

** Truth be told, no one made much of a mark at all in the first half of the game.

** That goes for both teams. I can’t recall many halves when both teams combined to shoot 23% from the field. It was likely the worst first half on basketball we’ve ever seen at the Pete.

** The second half wasn’t actually all that much better actually, except that the Panthers got on a roll hitting the extremely wide open three pointers they too often missed in the first half.

** In the first half, I kinda chuckled at the three made by Kham Davis. It’s not an exaggeration to suggest that he had about two full seconds to take the shot. I commented at the time that the shot was so open that I think that I could have even made it.

** So let’s give full credit to Kham because he takes and makes good shots, and doesn’t force tougher ones.

** I had a hard time understanding just how McNeese State was trying to defend our Panthers on the perimeter, or should I say, not defend our Panthers on the perimeter.

** All the same, I was having an equally difficult time understanding just why we ended up taking 33 threes against a team as lowly as the Cowboys of the Southland Conference.

** Along those lines, I am having a difficult time trying to understand just exactly what Coach Stallings wants from his offense.

** At times, there is some really decent ball movement, which too often seemed to end up with another three launched from the perimeter instead of pursuing better options.

** And if it’s missed, there’s not really anyone anywhere close to the paint to pursue an offensive rebound.

** Am I the only one who is more than a little troubled that Kene and Terrell combined for 0-5 from three point land, but only 2 offensive rebounds?

** Is that really the kind of offense the staff is looking for?

** The good news is that the staff has Marcus Carr to run the offense, and just like one would hope in a game like this, Marcus was clearly this game’s most talented player. It wasn’t really even close.

** The other good news is that this was indeed a 21 point win. When the Cowboys cut it to six near the 12 minute mark in the second half, I feared the Panthers might be in store for another unwelcome dogfight. But five more threes in the next few minutes ended this show.

** I’ll end with a more positive note, suggesting that it took the Panthers a little time to figure just how they wanted to play without Ryan. That’s understandable.

** They will have another game to work on this Tuesday, against the worst team in Division I Hoops. But after that Towson offers a much more formidable challenge, as or course does any team in the ACC.

** Hopefully, we can work on a little bit of an inside game. Because without Ryan, I can’t think shooting 33 threes will get the job done.
DT I've been reading u since u started & always look forward to your dribbles. I don't know about the O but I hope our coach can take this unfortunate opportunity to show us that he can develop players...e.g. Rebound. If he wants a bunch of 3s - fine - just get players who can make 37%+ and have a rebounding plan. HTP
 
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You're right about all those threes....but that's a Stallings offense. The point that you might want to ask is...what is it about his offense that actually gets so many open looks from
3 land? It's not just poor defense from the likes of the McNesse's of the basketball world.
It's obvious that they work on that, you can see it in the offensive sets during the games.

On the other hand I would however agree, that we should have looked to exploit our very obvious height advantage against this opponent. The problem is our height was the only advantage on the inside. Our Bigs just are no threat inside. None of them have post moves,
none of them power to the hoop, none of them have second and third attempts on offensive rebounds.......OFFENSIVE REBOUNDS???.... LOL I they simply do not exist with this team. I have to criticize coaching for that, because that can be taught in practice. If it were,
we would see glimpses of it in games, and would see improvement in the effort on the glass.

Your point is well taken about getting the threes, but can they can them against longer and better defenses? Today, there were plenty of threes where our guy just ran over to the wing and no one guarded him at all.

I'm all for taking open shots (and they were open today) but I don't think they will be so open in future games.
 
You're right about all those threes....but that's a Stallings offense. The point that you might want to ask is...what is it about his offense that actually gets so many open looks from
3 land? It's not just poor defense from the likes of the McNesse's of the basketball world.
It's obvious that they work on that, you can see it in the offensive sets during the games.

On the other hand I would however agree, that we should have looked to exploit our very obvious height advantage against this opponent. The problem is our height was the only advantage on the inside. Our Bigs just are no threat inside. None of them have post moves,
none of them power to the hoop, none of them have second and third attempts on offensive rebounds.......OFFENSIVE REBOUNDS???.... LOL I they simply do not exist with this team. I have to criticize coaching for that, because that can be taught in practice. If it were,
we would see glimpses of it in games, and would see improvement in the effort on the glass.
Your point is well taken about getting the threes, but can they can them against longer and better defenses? Today, there were plenty of threes where our guy just ran over to the wing and no one guarded him at all.

I'm all for taking open shots (and they were open today) but I don't think they will be so open in future games.

Well to answer your question consider two specific ACC teams with great defenses:
1. Syracuse and their two-three zone with lengthy players on the perimeter.
2. UVA and their very tight man to man D.
I'm pretty certain we'll struggle against both of those defenses, and will have a difficult
time even getting an open look. I'm also certain we'll be one and done against both of them. We were one and done against McNeese...to me that's a travesty, given our height and aggressive players like Stevenson and Frame.
I picked two ACC teams above, but let's face it, we'll undoubtedly see the same or
similar against the others for the most part IMO.
 
With a Stallings offense it seems like you're going to get a lot of 3's taken as a percentage of your total shots, and not many OReb.

I'm still unsure if that's by design (if you take a lot of 3's, there will be a lot more long rebounds, so why crash the glass?), if it's just a natural byproduct of Stallings liking having at least 4 guys on the perimeter most of the time times, or if it's just not something that's emphasized in recruiting.

It is interesting to go through KenPom and look at Stallings' strengths/weaknesses/tendencies compared to Dixon's.
 
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Stevenson was a little off today but he still shows flashes. Love that guy.

Carr is so good. The best natural scoring guard we've had since Vonteego.

Stewart had a smooth stroke.

I'm telling you guys, if Stallings can get some other pieces, this team can get good sooner than you think.
 
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Stevenson was a little off today but he still shows flashes. Love that guy.

Carr is so good. The best natural scoring guard we've had since Vonteego.

Stewart had a smooth stroke.

I'm telling you guys, if Stallings can get some other pieces, this team can get good sooner than you think.

Stevenson's done enough that I definitely think we can chalk it up to an off game.

Even at halftime I wasn't too worried today. In general the team has shot it well enough on offense that I didn't think they would stay that cold with the looks they were getting. Turnovers are always what worries me with this offense.
 
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With a Stallings offense it seems like you're going to get a lot of 3's taken as a percentage of your total shots, and not many OReb.

I'm still unsure if that's by design (if you take a lot of 3's, there will be a lot more long rebounds, so why crash the glass?), if it's just a natural byproduct of Stallings liking having at least 4 guys on the perimeter most of the time times, or if it's just not something that's emphasized in recruiting.

It is interesting to go through KenPom and look at Stallings' strengths/weaknesses/tendencies compared to Dixon's.

I agree with you about a perimeter type of offense naturally not getting more offensive rebounds. However the "long rebounds" are only part of the problem. Watch what's
going on under the hoop on these shots...there are NO Pitt players there. There is
NO inside presence. It's not just a byproduct of the offensive set, it's how that set
has no inside rotation to it. All offensive sets can be tweeked or changed. I would
like to see the rotation leading to some inside presence during that rotation.
 
With a Stallings offense it seems like you're going to get a lot of 3's taken as a percentage of your total shots, and not many OReb.

I'm still unsure if that's by design (if you take a lot of 3's, there will be a lot more long rebounds, so why crash the glass?), if it's just a natural byproduct of Stallings liking having at least 4 guys on the perimeter most of the time times, or if it's just not something that's emphasized in recruiting.

It is interesting to go through KenPom and look at Stallings' strengths/weaknesses/tendencies compared to Dixon's.

I agree with you about a perimeter type of offense naturally not getting more offensive rebounds. However the "long rebounds" are only part of the problem. Watch what's
going on under the hoop on these shots...there are NO Pitt players there. There is
NO inside presence. It's not just a byproduct of the offensive set, it's how that set
has no inside rotation to it. All offensive sets can be tweeked or changed. I would
like to see the rotation leading to some inside presence during that rotation.

We have an undersized 4 and our 3 centers are below average rebounders. This isn't hard to figure out. Stallings needs to find better bigs
 
We have an undersized 4 and our 3 centers are below average rebounders. This isn't hard to figure out. Stallings needs to find better bigs

Good point SMF, but it's an oversimplification. You're right, "undersized 4" and
" centers below average rebounders." The trouble is they're not even inside
TRYING to rebound. They're simply not there on the offensive end.
Here's a thought to consider, if Blair were on this team would he suddenly appear
inside in this offense? I hate to say it but he'd more than likely be on the perimeter
given what Stalling appears to do with his offense.
 
** I’ve been at this duty of writing post-game “dribbles” for almost two decades now.

** It’s almost always been a true labor of love, and during the best of times, it was hardly a labor at all.

** But for as much of a challenge as this season will be for our Panthers, I must confess it’s already been quite a challenge to write about it too.

** And for this particular game, it’s so darn difficult to even know just what to think, let alone what to write.

** The crowd didn’t know what to think either, I believe. Without the Zoo and few in attendance, it was so painfully quiet, the atmosphere was almost surreal.

** So I’ll start in the easiest and most obvious place, which is to congratulate our Panthers for a win. Not just a win, but their first win of the year with a comfortable margin at the end.

** So comfortable that we even got to enjoy the entrance of our stable of walk-ons. That’s always an enjoyable thing to watch.

** It’s also enjoyable to watch your team celebrate and enjoy when things are going well. And with threes raining from everywhere in the second half, there was certainly that to enjoy.

** But it would be less than honest to suggest that this actually an enjoyable game.

** Of course, it started with a big loud ugly thud with the sight of Ryan Luther sporting a walking boot. I’m hoping for the best, but I fear that Ryan is looking at another injury just like last year.

** The time that could be missed by Luther is bad enough on its own, but when he returned for action last season, he was never really himself.

** Still, I went into the game looking forward to seeing more time from Terrell Brown. In fact, I was even conjuring a holiday delivery themed post centered around the idea of “what Brown can do for you!”

** But that wasn’t to be. Brown didn’t really deliver. Neither did Peace nor Kene whose minutes where increased in the absence of Ryan.

** In fact, this trio combined only for 5 points. 5 points against the #312 team in college basketball.

** Even Shamiel failed to make his mark in the paint.

** Truth be told, no one made much of a mark at all in the first half of the game.

** That goes for both teams. I can’t recall many halves when both teams combined to shoot 23% from the field. It was likely the worst first half on basketball we’ve ever seen at the Pete.

** The second half wasn’t actually all that much better actually, except that the Panthers got on a roll hitting the extremely wide open three pointers they too often missed in the first half.

** In the first half, I kinda chuckled at the three made by Kham Davis. It’s not an exaggeration to suggest that he had about two full seconds to take the shot. I commented at the time that the shot was so open that I think that I could have even made it.

** So let’s give full credit to Kham because he takes and makes good shots, and doesn’t force tougher ones.

** I had a hard time understanding just how McNeese State was trying to defend our Panthers on the perimeter, or should I say, not defend our Panthers on the perimeter.

** All the same, I was having an equally difficult time understanding just why we ended up taking 33 threes against a team as lowly as the Cowboys of the Southland Conference.

** Along those lines, I am having a difficult time trying to understand just exactly what Coach Stallings wants from his offense.

** At times, there is some really decent ball movement, which too often seemed to end up with another three launched from the perimeter instead of pursuing better options.

** And if it’s missed, there’s not really anyone anywhere close to the paint to pursue an offensive rebound.

** Am I the only one who is more than a little troubled that Kene and Terrell combined for 0-5 from three point land, but only 2 offensive rebounds?

** Is that really the kind of offense the staff is looking for?

** The good news is that the staff has Marcus Carr to run the offense, and just like one would hope in a game like this, Marcus was clearly this game’s most talented player. It wasn’t really even close.

** The other good news is that this was indeed a 21 point win. When the Cowboys cut it to six near the 12 minute mark in the second half, I feared the Panthers might be in store for another unwelcome dogfight. But five more threes in the next few minutes ended this show.

** I’ll end with a more positive note, suggesting that it took the Panthers a little time to figure just how they wanted to play without Ryan. That’s understandable.

** They will have another game to work on this Tuesday, against the worst team in Division I Hoops. But after that Towson offers a much more formidable challenge, as or course does any team in the ACC.

** Hopefully, we can work on a little bit of an inside game. Because without Ryan, I can’t think shooting 33 threes will get the job done.
PG story on the Pitt Offense:

http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/...in-stallings-dan-dantoni/stories/201712150189
 
Good point SMF, but it's an oversimplification. You're right, "undersized 4" and
" centers below average rebounders." The trouble is they're not even inside
TRYING to rebound. They're simply not there on the offensive end.
Here's a thought to consider, if Blair were on this team would he suddenly appear
inside in this offense? I hate to say it but he'd more than likely be on the perimeter
given what Stalling appears to do with his offense.

Blair would definitely have been inside, with Biggs being the face-up guy.

Right now I'm not super concerned. His teams don't tend to be this bad on the offensive glass (they usually aren't great unless they have an individually good rebounder, but they're better than this), and I would prefer that he not do different things this year than he wants to do in the future.
 
Stevenson was a little off today but he still shows flashes. Love that guy.

Carr is so good. The best natural scoring guard we've had since Vonteego.

Stewart had a smooth stroke.

I'm telling you guys, if Stallings can get some other pieces, this team can get good sooner than you think.
He has 2 legit pieces. Nobody else will really be ready for at least 2-3 years to make any real impact. He is missing a large chunk of a puzzle.
 
This is a total rebuild and it will take a few seasons so my advice is to relax and watch for improvement and enjoy any victory that comes .
 
He has 2 legit pieces. Nobody else will really be ready for at least 2-3 years to make any real impact. He is missing a large chunk of a puzzle.

As much as I would really like to be more optimistic, this is much how I see things.

To be more specific, for us to be a legit NCAA tourney team in 2 years we need 8 good guys.

Let's just say that Carr develops as we think, he's a good #2 on an a legit NCAA team. If Shamiel develops as we think, he's a good #5, or maybe even #4 on an NCAA team.

Between Ellison, Kham and/or Parker, I think we should have a solid #7 and #8 guys on an NCAA team.

The chunk of the puzzle I think Coach Stallings still needs to recruit are the #1, #3, #5 and #6 pieces.
 
As much as I would really like to be more optimistic, this is much how I see things.

To be more specific, for us to be a legit NCAA tourney team in 2 years we need 8 good guys.

Let's just say that Carr develops as we think, he's a good #2 on an a legit NCAA team. If Shamiel develops as we think, he's a good #5, or maybe even #4 on an NCAA team.

Between Ellison, Kham and/or Parker, I think we should have a solid #7 and #8 guys on an NCAA team.

The chunk of the puzzle I think Coach Stallings still needs to recruit are the #1, #3, #5 and #6 pieces.
Pitt's last NCAA tournament team:

MPG and PPG

1. Robinson 32.0 10.2
2. Artis 30.0 14.4
3. Young 29.4 15.7
4. C.Jones 19.0 6.1
5. Jeter 18.6 8.1
6. S.Smith 17.3 4.5
7. R.Luther 13.2 5.0
8. R.Maia 12.0 2.0 C.Johnson 11.7 4.8

How far do you really think this team is (with this years experience and next years as well plus Ellison, Kingsby, Golden plus 1 more and 1 more) from fielding a roster as good as the one above? Interested in your answer.
 
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Pitt's last NCAA tournament team:

MPG and PPG

1. Robinson 32.0 10.2
2. Artis 30.0 14.4
3. Young 29.4 15.7
4. C.Jones 19.0 6.1
5. Jeter 18.6 8.1
6. S.Smith 17.3 4.5
7. R.Luther 13.2 5.0
8. R.Maia 12.0 2.0 C.Johnson 11.7 4.8

How far do you really think this team is (with this years experience and next years as well plus Ellison, Kingsby, Golden and 1 more) from fielding a roster as good as the one above? Interested in your answer.
I think they are a ways away from that team. Robinson, Artis, young were all really good that year. Carr, Stephenson and JWF are interesting but a ways from that. I do suppose Carr and Stephenson could be really good by their Jr years though.

If Pitt can bring in a good big man with their available roster spot, I'll be more optimistic. But the current bigs that will be here next year and the addition of Golden still leaves us with one of the worst frontcourts in the nation next year, unless there are HUGE improvements between this year and next. Against McNeese St today Brown, Chukwuka, Ilegomah and George had a horrible day combined (and stephenson did very little as well).

Some of it may be the system, I expect bigs to get a few rebounds and these bigs seem incapable.
 
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I think they are a ways away from that team. Robinson, Artis, young were all really good that year. Carr, Stephenson and JWF are interesting but a ways from that. I do suppose Carr and Stephenson could be really good by their Jr years though.

If Pitt can bring in a good big man with their available roster spot, I'll be more optimistic. But the current bigs that will be here next year and the addition of Golden still leaves us with one of the worst frontcourts in the nation next year, unless there are HUGE improvements between this year and next. Against McNeese St today Brown, Chukwuka, Ilegomah and George had a horrible day combined (and stephenson did very little as well).

Some of it may be the system, I expect bigs to get a few rebounds and these bigs seem incapable.
I don't believe DT is talking about next season.
 
Brown and Peace are weird because on one hand, their scoring ability is really poor and it would be nice to see them rebound better.

But on the other hand you also got a combined 5 blocks and 5 assists, which hasn't been the norm for big guys at Pitt.

I don't know if they'll wind up being good, but I'm intrigued.
 
Pitt's last NCAA tournament team:

MPG and PPG

1. Robinson 32.0 10.2
2. Artis 30.0 14.4
3. Young 29.4 15.7
4. C.Jones 19.0 6.1
5. Jeter 18.6 8.1
6. S.Smith 17.3 4.5
7. R.Luther 13.2 5.0
8. R.Maia 12.0 2.0 C.Johnson 11.7 4.8

How far do you really think this team is (with this years experience and next years as well plus Ellison, Kingsby, Golden plus 1 more and 1 more) from fielding a roster as good as the one above? Interested in your answer.
What could our eight look like? - Here is a try without knowing who our last 2 recruits will be.

1. Carr - Jr
2. ?????/Ellison - Sr
3. Stevenson - Jr
4. Stewart - Jr
5. ?????/Brown - Jr
6. Kingsby - Sr
7. Golden - So
8. K.Davis - Jr

I have never seen Kingsby play - I have seen Golden twice on TV - I have seen Ellison several times on TV

Is it totally unreasonable to suspect that this team in 2 years could equal Pitt's last NCAA tournament team?

Young and Artis certainly had flaws. Jones and Jeter were not exactly powerhouse #4 and #5s. Smith and Maia make that much difference? Luther and Johnson adding 5 points apiece. (And I am listing 9 not 8)

Maybe your expectations for the eight man rotation are too high.

Three good players and five decent players will do. I think Carr and Stevenson can be good. Need that one more.
 
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I don't believe DT is talking about next season.

That's a good question. I will also say that we can't overlook coaching, as its not quite as simple as comparing roster vs. roster.

I think everyone's timetable was more or less make the NCAA tournament, or get real close next season to imagine KS getting a 4th season.

I just don't know if that's possible, but if it were to happen, the key player IMO is Frame. You really would need Frame and Carr to be a effective 1-2 punch, and then Stevenson, maybe Brown, maybe Stewart, maybe Ellison, those guys have to be solid pieces. I just can't count on Golden/Kingsby..I mean, maybe they will surprise, but that's a bottom of the league recruiting class, and the thought that we are going to add anyone of significance in the spring is doubtful.

So, I guess to answer your question, I think we probably aren't THAT far off from a roster like that, but I'm not really sure whether that is significant or not, because there are rosters like that all over the country that go like 14-16, just because we get back to having a roster like that does not mean that we've rebounded as a program. You still have to win games. But KS has found a couple good pieces..although I will temper the optimism from SMF a bit..I don't think the pieces are quite as good as he thinks.

H2P
 
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That's a good question. I will also say that we can't overlook coaching, as its not quite as simple as comparing roster vs. roster.

I think everyone's timetable was more or less make the NCAA tournament, or get real close next season to imagine KS getting a 4th season.

I just don't know if that's possible, but if it were to happen, the key player IMO is Frame. You really would need Frame and Carr to be a effective 1-2 punch, and then Stevenson, maybe Brown, maybe Stewart, maybe Ellison, those guys have to be solid pieces. I just can't count on Golden/Kingsby..I mean, maybe they will surprise, but that's a bottom of the league recruiting class, and the thought that we are going to add anyone of significance in the spring is doubtful.

So, I guess to answer your question, I think we probably aren't THAT far off from a roster like that, but I'm not really sure whether that is significant or not, because there are rosters like that all over the country that go like 14-16, just because we get back to having a roster like that does not mean that we've rebounded as a program. You still have to win games. But KS has found a couple good pieces..although I will temper the optimism from SMF a bit..I don't think the pieces are quite as good as he thinks.

H2P

Unless we add a significant piece we do not yet know is coming, I don't think there much of any chance at all that we make the NCAA's next year. I even think something like the NIT would be a very long shot.

Where we are in two years is quite a different question.
 
That's a good question. I will also say that we can't overlook coaching, as its not quite as simple as comparing roster vs. roster.

I think everyone's timetable was more or less make the NCAA tournament, or get real close next season to imagine KS getting a 4th season.

I just don't know if that's possible, but if it were to happen, the key player IMO is Frame. You really would need Frame and Carr to be a effective 1-2 punch, and then Stevenson, maybe Brown, maybe Stewart, maybe Ellison, those guys have to be solid pieces. I just can't count on Golden/Kingsby..I mean, maybe they will surprise, but that's a bottom of the league recruiting class, and the thought that we are going to add anyone of significance in the spring is doubtful.

So, I guess to answer your question, I think we probably aren't THAT far off from a roster like that, but I'm not really sure whether that is significant or not, because there are rosters like that all over the country that go like 14-16, just because we get back to having a roster like that does not mean that we've rebounded as a program. You still have to win games. But KS has found a couple good pieces..although I will temper the optimism from SMF a bit..I don't think the pieces are quite as good as he thinks.

H2P

Unless there's a mass exodus of key players, I can't see Stallings not getting 4 years.

I thought next year might matter, but I went through and looked at a bunch of different schools and coaches and I think there's no chance Stallings doesn't get 4 years unless the wheels totally come off with this roster.
 
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As much as I would really like to be more optimistic, this is much how I see things.

To be more specific, for us to be a legit NCAA tourney team in 2 years we need 8 good guys.

Let's just say that Carr develops as we think, he's a good #2 on an a legit NCAA team. If Shamiel develops as we think, he's a good #5, or maybe even #4 on an NCAA team.

Between Ellison, Kham and/or Parker, I think we should have a solid #7 and #8 guys on an NCAA team.

The chunk of the puzzle I think Coach Stallings still needs to recruit are the #1, #3, #5 and #6 pieces.

-I'd say 7, not 8

-This is the best start for a freshmen guard in Marcus Carr since..... I dont even know the answer to that question. He can shoot, make free throws, and pass. We have a point guard, as a freshmen, that looks for real, like, really for real. I would juice his minutes to 34 minutes per game if not more unless he cant handle it.

-Stevenson had a let down game finally, but is still shooting 58% for the season as a freshmen while averaging 11 and 5. Yea, he is forced in the role like Carr, but if there wasnt any talent, their shooting percentages would suck. They dont to this point.

-Kham Davis also has decent shooting numbers thus far.

-Borderline maybe, we have 3 pieces that are freshmen.

-Im not hyping Pitt in anyway, but from your post, I believe you are selling Carr short, very short. We'll see in ACC play. I believe we have an actual anchor point guard as a true freshmen.
 
-I'd say 7, not 8

-This is the best start for a freshmen guard in Marcus Carr since..... I dont even know the answer to that question. He can shoot, make free throws, and pass. We have a point guard, as a freshmen, that looks for real, like, really for real. I would juice his minutes to 34 minutes per game if not more unless he cant handle it.

-Stevenson had a let down game finally, but is still shooting 58% for the season as a freshmen while averaging 11 and 5. Yea, he is forced in the role like Carr, but if there wasnt any talent, their shooting percentages would suck. They dont to this point.

-Kham Davis also has decent shooting numbers thus far.

-Borderline maybe, we have 3 pieces that are freshmen.

-Im not hyping Pitt in anyway, but from your post, I believe you are selling Carr short, very short. We'll see in ACC play. I believe we have an actual anchor point guard as a true freshmen.

Perhaps I should explain further.

As a #2 on a solid NCAA team, in two years, I expect Marcus to be one of the top 4-6 point guards in the ACC.

We still need a #1 player on our team.

So let's even say I'm underselling Marcus some in two years. Let's say he grows to be a #1 type player on an NCAA team. As such, he'd likely be one of the best 10-15 players in the ACC.

That could be possible.

But he still needs a #2 player alongside him, and I don't see that player on our roster right now.
 
Unless there's a mass exodus of key players, I can't see Stallings not getting 4 years.

I'm not saying this is going to happen, but let's say for sake of argument we win 2 ACC games next season, and then we win..oh 5-6 ACC games the following year. That would be a combined record of like 12-42 in ACC games in 3 seasons. Maybe that gets a 4th year, but I seriously doubt it, especially not from an AD with no ties at all to KS, and certainly not if we keep drawing 7k for the BIG games.

I mean, if we go 0-18 in the ACC this season, I truly think anything is possible. You just can't be playing in empty gyms and not winning any games. I don't think that will happen, I think we could win 3 ACC games, but you never know.
 
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Perhaps I should explain further.

As a #2 on a solid NCAA team, in two years, I expect Marcus to be one of the top 4-6 point guards in the ACC.

We still need a #1 player on our team.

So let's even say I'm underselling Marcus some in two years. Let's say he grows to be a #1 type player on an NCAA team. As such, he'd likely be one of the best 10-15 players in the ACC.

That could be possible.

But he still needs a #2 player alongside him, and I don't see that player on our roster right now.


-Expect haterade to come down on my next remark.

-Carr reminds me of Tra Holder of Arizona State. Ive seen them twice, 3 times tomorrow. Holder will be an All American from Arizona State. Carr has tools, real tools. He can blossom to big time in my honest opinion with a supporting cast.
 
-I'd say 7, not 8

-This is the best start for a freshmen guard in Marcus Carr since..... I dont even know the answer to that question. He can shoot, make free throws, and pass. We have a point guard, as a freshmen, that looks for real, like, really for real. I would juice his minutes to 34 minutes per game if not more unless he cant handle it.

-Stevenson had a let down game finally, but is still shooting 58% for the season as a freshmen while averaging 11 and 5. Yea, he is forced in the role like Carr, but if there wasnt any talent, their shooting percentages would suck. They dont to this point.

-Kham Davis also has decent shooting numbers thus far.

-Borderline maybe, we have 3 pieces that are freshmen.

-Im not hyping Pitt in anyway, but from your post, I believe you are selling Carr short, very short. We'll see in ACC play. I believe we have an actual anchor point guard as a true freshmen.

We've played 2 legit teams that you could say are NCAA teams, or maybe close to it, WVU who is certainly a NCAA team, and also PSU (a bubble team). In those games, Carr had more TOs than assists in both. He scored 12 against WVU, but it was on 2-6 shooting and he had 5 turnovers, the PSU game he was awful, scored 9 pts, 1 assist, 4 TOs. He's been really, really good against the dregs of D1...but he has looked anything but for real against the good teams.

I'm not saying there isn't promise there, but how bout he has a good game against a good team before we go overboard.
 
I'm not saying this is going to happen, but let's say for sake of argument we win 2 ACC games next season, and then we win..oh 5-6 ACC games the following year. That would be a combined record of like 12-42 in ACC games in 3 seasons. Maybe that gets a 4th year, but I seriously doubt it, especially not from an AD with no ties at all to KS, and certainly not if we keep drawing 7k for the BIG games.

I mean, if we go 0-18 in the ACC this season, I truly think anything is possible. You just can't be playing in empty gyms and not winning any games. I don't think that will happen, I think we could win 3 ACC games, but you never know.

Jim Christian has won 4, 0, and 2 ACC games at BC and is in his 4th year. Bzdelik won 1, 4, and 6 at Wake Forest and got a 4th year. Brian Gregory won 4, 4, 6, and 3 at GT and managed to get a 5th year.

I think Stallings is definitely getting 4.

I can't imagine that fan attendance will be a huge factor. Attendance was declining back when Dixon was still making the NCAA's. The support will be tepid and not make a difference either way.
 
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We've played 2 legit teams that you could say are NCAA teams, or maybe close to it, WVU who is certainly a NCAA team, and also PSU (a bubble team). In those games, Carr had more assists than turnovers in both. He scored 12 against WVU, but it was on 2-6 shooting and he had 5 turnovers, the PSU game he was awful, scored 9 pts, 1 assist, 4 TOs. He's been really, really good against the dregs of D1...but he has looked anything but for real against the good teams.

I'm not saying there isn't promise there, but how bout he has a good game against a good team before we go overboard.

-Carr had 12 points and 4 assists against WV. He only took 6 shots. He had 12 points and 10 assists against Oklahoma State, a team that just beat undefeated Florida State. If you are in the DT category, that is ok. I think we have an anchor.
 
Jim Christian has won 4, 0, and 2 ACC games at BC and is in his 4th year. Bzdelik won 1, 4, and 6 at Wake Forest and got a 4th year. Brian Gregory won 4, 4, 6, and 3 at GT and managed to get a 5th year.

I think Stallings is definitely getting 4.

I can't imagine that fan attendance will be a huge factor. Attendance was declining back when Dixon was still making the NCAA's. The support will be tepid and not make a difference either way.

I think BC is sort of a bad comparison to other school in the ACC. The common thread for the other two coaches were that they did get fired, maybe it just took a year longer. If KS gets a 4th year, I mean..what is the benchmark if the first 3 have been failures? It can't possibly be just to make the NCAA tournament.

I also would like to know how long Bzdelik and Gregory lasted if there was an AD change that preceeded their firing? Like, did GT or Wake get a new AD in year 1, and then they still were given that long a leash? That's what is unique here.

Again, if this season goes off the rails, be prepared for anything, thats all I'll say.
 
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I think BC is sort of a bad comparison to other school in the ACC. The common thread for the other two coaches were that they did get fired, maybe it just took a year longer. If KS gets a 4th year, I mean..what is the benchmark if the first 3 have been failures? It can't possibly be just to make the NCAA tournament.

I also would like to know how long Bzdelik and Gregory lasted if there was an AD change that preceeded their firing? Like, did GT or Wake get a new AD in year 1, and then they still were given that long a leash? That's what is unique here.

Again, if this season goes off the rails, be prepared for anything, thats all I'll say.
Isn't that the Boy Scout motto?
 
We've played 2 legit teams that you could say are NCAA teams, or maybe close to it, WVU who is certainly a NCAA team, and also PSU (a bubble team). In those games, Carr had more TOs than assists in both. He scored 12 against WVU, but it was on 2-6 shooting and he had 5 turnovers, the PSU game he was awful, scored 9 pts, 1 assist, 4 TOs. He's been really, really good against the dregs of D1...but he has looked anything but for real against the good teams.

I'm not saying there isn't promise there, but how bout he has a good game against a good team before we go overboard.

I think it's always important to provide proper perspective like you have in this post.
 
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I think BC is sort of a bad comparison to other school in the ACC. The common thread for the other two coaches were that they did get fired, maybe it just took a year longer. If KS gets a 4th year, I mean..what is the benchmark if the first 3 have been failures? It can't possibly be just to make the NCAA tournament.

I also would like to know how long Bzdelik and Gregory lasted if there was an AD change that preceeded their firing? Like, did GT or Wake get a new AD in year 1, and then they still were given that long a leash? That's what is unique here.

Again, if this season goes off the rails, be prepared for anything, thats all I'll say.

I mean, it's Pitt so I'll never discount us scoring an own-goal, but I think it would take this roster imploding for anything drastic to happen.

I don't think the AD change matters much -- or at least it shouldn't. Fact remains that, just like Dixon, Stallings has a reputation in the coaching community. And, as we saw during the last search, if people feel like a respected coach got a raw deal, that's extremely counterproductive.

Short of having several of the main pieces leave, I don't think you can fire Stallings before Year 4 without encountering more of the same.

I think Wake is the best comparison, to be honest. They fired Gaudio and were met with a whole lot of "what the heck are they doing and what do they realistically expect?".
 
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-Carr had 12 points and 4 assists against WV. He only took 6 shots. He had 12 points and 10 assists against Oklahoma State, a team that just beat undefeated Florida State. If you are in the DT category, that is ok. I think we have an anchor.

I don't know what category I'm in. If you think 12 points, 4 assists, and 5 TO's vs WVU is comparable to oh, I dunno, 30 pts in Lawrence Kansas, I don't know what to tell you. I hope we have an anchor. I think I'll know more after Towson and Miami, both of which he should play well if he is on the Holder trajectory.
 
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