-He had 12 point and 10 assists vs Ok. State. Im saying he can grow into Holder type player. He is a freshmen, not a senior!
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/boxscore?gameId=400999768
NcNeese State Game & Other Dribbles ...
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-He had 12 point and 10 assists vs Ok. State. Im saying he can grow into Holder type player. He is a freshmen, not a senior!
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/boxscore?gameId=400999768
I think his reputation is that most coaches are probably stunned he failed upward into the Pitt job, right as he was about to be fired by Vandy. I know coaches love to talk about his virtues, but what are they supposed to say.."that coach stinks"? I'm sure people have a lot of nice things to say about Jim Christian, and Brian Gregory, and Jeff Bzdelik too. I don't put much stock in that. If KS fails three straight seasons, no one will complain about him getting a raw deal, trust me. You don't need to see him fail a 4th straight year. Or worse yet, in the 4th year like make the play-in game like he did with multiple NBA picks at Vandy and he somehow gets a 5th year.
Fair enough, and one can dream. I just hope he comes back for his sophmore season.
I think it's always important to provide proper perspective like you have in this post.
I mean, is Pitt falling upwards? Seems kind of like a lateral move, to be honest. Pretty sure if he felt like he had job security at Vanderbilt he would have never left for Pitt, for perspective.
And, I mean, there's a bit of a difference between not wanting to say something mean about somebody and having a reputation for being one of the better offensive minds in the game.
Some more examples:
- Mark Turgeon got a 4th year after missing the NCAAs his first 3 years at Maryland (!) after taking over for Gary Williams.
- John Groce got 5 years at Illinois.
- Kevin O'Neill got 4 years at USC
- Frank Martin missed the NCAAs 4 years in a row at SCAR to start off and got a 5th year
- Billy Kennedy missed the NCAAs 4 years in a row at Texas A&M and got a 5th year
- Richard Pitino missed the NCAAs his first 3 years at Minnesota after taking over for Tubby (who had just gone to the NCAA Tournament), with the 3rd year featuring 8 wins overall and 2 wins in Conference
- Ken Bone got 5 years at Washington State
- Mick Cronin missed his first 4 years at Cincy, got a 5th year
- Johnny Dawkins missed the NCAAs his first 5 years at Stanford, got a 6th year
Again, Pitt could totally bungle things up, but I feel pretty confident Stallings will get 4 years. Pitt isn't a good enough program to just hire and fire guys at will and Stallings has enough of a track record that you can't just pull a "yeah he has no idea what he's doing at the P5 level".
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Not that I want to totally get into a splitting hairs argument, but Turgeon never went below .500 in those first 3 seasons, Groce went to an NCAA tourney in year 1, O'Neill made an NCAA tourney in year 2 and was fired midway through year 4, Pitino won the NIT in year 1, Kennedy was over .500 by year 2. My point being, the 4-14 record last season stings more than you think..if he just makes the tourney he probably gets the Groce type leeway.
I think Martin might be the best comp if you are being truly optimistic.
But I do think the AD change, the attendence, the complete lack of any honeymoon for KS (fair or unfair) matters. Every situation is unique. And like you said, Pitt's propensity for own goals can't be discounted either, I mean, that's sort of how he got the job, right?
I'm optimistic Lyke is competent, which is why I think he gets a minimum of 4.
And I hesitate a bit to say he would get Groce type leeway had he made the NCAAs last year. Given the vitriol, that credit would have gone entirely to Dixon and we'd still be thinking it's realistic to think he'll get fired early.
I also don't think people would have looked at winning NITs or going .500 as reasons to keep him, and I also think a few of those programs are the types of places where you can have reasonable demands and expectations above where Pitt's are.
At this point, it's pretty clear the goalposts will keep getting moved on him, just like they did Dixon.
In my opinion, it's why he just overhauled everything. There's no use trying to scrape things together and salvage some kind of victory like a NIT championship or a respectable record. It won't be enough. Have to roll the dice and play the high-risk/high-reward game.
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My last post on this:
1) I do think an NCAA appearance would have helped last season. I think given the absurdly difficult ACC league season, the lack of a PG..if he had cobbled together a 9-9 ACC record, made the field, there is no doubt in my mind that buys some good will.
2) The goalpost argument is a good one, and it will actually get tougher for him if the first three years are bad, the expectations will be even higher in year 4.
3) Overhauling everything is smart, I have no problem with it. Having all those scholarships certainly helped us to get Stewart late, someone I think will be real good for us in 2 years. The bigger question to me is why is the 2018 class so average, why haven't these two new assistant coaches brought in anyone. Again, you had a good list of coaches there who got maybe longer leashes than they should have..were they bringing in good classes to give people hope? If KS had two top 100 kids in his pocket for next season, maybe the outlook is a bit different.
I just don't like saying he gets a minimum of ______ years. That sort of implies that nothing matters, recruiting or results, and we all just have to collectively wait this out. I'm absolutely not saying we are there yet, or anywhere close, but if things go way off the rails (transfers, 0-18 record) Lyke would be far from competent if she just flatly said I won't reevaluate until the end of year 4.
Stewart is a lethal shooter. I don't get why people are down on him.
Carr can be the 19 PPG guy that draws the attention and Stewart can be the 40% 3 point shooter.
I don't think making the NCAAs last year would have mattered, no. Would have had to make the Sweet 16 at minimum, otherwise we'd be faced with nothing but "he made it with Dixon's guys, lost in the first weekend, and now he has his guys in here and they suck".
Also, I qualified an earlier statement by saying that if he sees a lot of turnover with these key young guys he could be fired sooner than 4 years. Maybe I didn't say it enough, but I am of the opinion that a rash of transfers among the important pieces could kill him.
I just don't think record will matter.
A lot of this also comes as a result of AAU caused poor skills training. (Note the remark about adapting to specific players skill sets). About the only thing kids really practice is dunks and 3-pointers. Many don’t have the pull-up two pointer in their repertoire and very very few have the long-layup in it. The latter is critical for guards and wings facing a shot block by a big guarding the rim if they take it all the way to the hoop.
Unfortunately these trends coupled with the NCAA freedom of movement emphasis for officiating is a killer of all hopes for great success if you aren’t a blood blood program landing the best talent. You are no longer able to overcome talent gaps with playing better hard nosed defense. IMO this is not good for college hoops and particularly bad for our favor team since we will never match the blue bloods in recruiting.
Unfortunately these trends coupled with the NCAA freedom of movement emphasis for officiating is a killer of all hopes for great success if you aren’t a blood blood program landing the best talent. You are no longer able to overcome talent gaps with playing better hard nosed defense. IMO this is not good for college hoops and particularly bad for our favor team since we will never match the blue bloods in recruiting.
Stevenson reminds me a lot of Jerome Lane and Jerome didn’t look this good as a freshman . He was out of control , but he did get a lot better !
Ps ..he never shot the ball as good as Stevenson can if only SS learns to rebound like JL !
Luther getting a 6th year would be a big boost for next year, but that’s a pretty big indictment of Stallings’ recruiting. The 2019 season roster is not inspiring, and holding onto Luther means we are done barring transfers. I sincerely hope that Lyke’s decision is made for her based on the fall 2018 signees. Another average or worse class should be the end of this failed experiment.
I highly doubt there are any sane Pitt fans that think he’s going to finish his entire contract here, so what’s the point in splitting hairs talking about what year is proper to fire him? He’s a lame duck.
I highly doubt there are any sane Pitt fans that think he’s going to finish his entire contract here, so what’s the point in splitting hairs talking about what year is proper to fire him? He’s a lame duck.
I'm happy that Pitt won, albeit against one of the worst teams in the whole country. But it's still very concerning that this team doesn't know what an offensive rebound is (or maybe I should say the coach doesn't know) and their offense last night consisted of chucking up 3's for much of the game. That won't win any games in the ACC. No inside presence at all won't help when we start to play even mediocre teams who always seem to have that against us.
what strikes me with your player list from our last NCAA tourney team, the top 4 guys on that list have to be some of the most criticized Pitt players in PantherLair lore going back a good number of years now (at least among players that saw a good bit of playing time). Three of them because many posters had a negative vibe over their skills, attitude or other reason. One or them, Robinson, not so much a negative vibe regarding his game, just that he didn’t bring more to the table offensively.
Only one I can quickly think of off the top of my head that had as much negativity thrown at him is Cam Wright.
Regarding our current roster, considering we’re talking about true freshman, things can definitely go either way but it isn’t a stretch to project them being able to reach NCAA tourney level capabilities similar to that group by the time they’re JRs with no more than a couple key additions.
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The short version of what I am saying is you don't need a murders row of 8 to make the tourney.
Yes, but you need a good coach. Give KS that 2015 team and I doubt he makes the tournament. You keep ignoring the coach aspect of things in all your posts.
Personally, I think you and most on this board are too hard on this team and KS. Coming into the season, most said we would only have single digit wins. Most said they wanted to see improvement and that there is some semblance of talent.
I'd easily say that we are improving and that we do have some talent. I thought it was an impressive game yesterday considering Luther, their best player to date, did not play. Carr is very good and a super piece to build on. Stevenson will be a very nice 4 year player that could develop into an all ACC type of player. Davis is a nice 6th man. Wilson Frame has some very good games and stepped up as the leader yesterday. Stewart is another player that can give them something and both Brown and Ilegomah showed some defensive presence yesterday.
Take it for what it is, watch it to see them grow and have some fun watching basketball. Most of the last few years have been super frustrating to watch and not so much fun at all. Artis and Young were very, very good college players with a great bit of talent, but we're such bad teammates and had no will to do he things needed to be part of a winning team. This year is not that for me. It's fun to see where this team was, what it has grown to and to think where it may get to. That is good enough for me this year.
I agree, our current group are true freshman so nothing’s definite but so far they’ve definitely shown enough to state that just a normal trajectory makes them a sufficient base for a tourney team by the time they’re JRs. Just need 1 or 2 key additions, don’t know yet how much Kingsby and Golden will contribute to that.
In an ideal world one would be hired and fired based solely on merit and performance . Accordingly Pitt hired KS after an exhaustive search conducted by a professional search firm and that hire was approved by the AD ,chancellor and BOT. To those folks KS was hired on merit .
I don't think anyone can disagree with the statement that last yrs team underperformed . I do think most on here overlooked the loss of the teams leader and pg, but several close tough losses sealed their fate . I think its safe to say It wasn't KS finest coaching season .
This yr he's starting over , no other D1 team has had such a radical roster turnover and those who are expecting Pitt to all of a sudden recruit instant impact players at all 5 positions are out of touch with reality . This rebuild without the help of a prominent booster group or shoe company and done strictly by ncaa guidelines would take any coach three yrs at the minimum. I for one am surprised at the play of several of the freshman (Carr , Stevenson , Davis and I see upside in Stewart and potential in both bigs ). Can KS add the necessary pieces to make this a tournament team in two more season ( which he gets ) I have no idea .
If KS doesn't win a conference game this season his seat will be hot and if he doesn't win a conference game the following yr Heather may be forced to act . The only issue will be his contract and the cost of firing him . This isn't an issue at some schools , but it is at Pitt . That cost will also affect the next
hire .
Bottom line Pitt NEEDS KS to turn this program around fulfill his contract and then hire the next great coach !
I don't think anyone can disagree with the statement that last yrs team underperformed . I do think most on here overlooked the loss of the teams leader and pg, but several close tough losses sealed their fate . I think its safe to say It wasn't KS finest coaching season .
This yr he's starting over , no other D1 team has had such a radical roster turnover and those who are expecting Pitt to all of a sudden recruit instant impact players at all 5 positions are out of touch with reality . This rebuild without the help of a prominent booster group or shoe company and done strictly by ncaa guidelines would take any coach three yrs at the minimum. I for one am surprised at the play of several of the freshman (Carr , Stevenson , Davis and I see upside in Stewart and potential in both bigs ). Can KS add the necessary pieces to make this a tournament team in two more season ( which he gets ) I have no idea .
If KS doesn't win a conference game this season his seat will be hot and if he doesn't win a conference game the following yr Heather may be forced to act . The only issue will be his contract and the cost of firing him . This isn't an issue at some schools , but it is at Pitt . That cost will also affect the next
hire .
Bottom line Pitt NEEDS KS to turn this program around fulfill his contract and then hire the next great coach !
I don't think that is remotely close to what they think. The coaching fraternity is very tight and they generally support each other. What they are thinking is why would Pitt ever get rid of Dixon? Dixon did things at Pitt that nobody thought were possible and will likely never be repeated again. After how the admin treated him, we are very surprised they got a coach as good as Stallings.
That's the crux of the matter, John. Other potential coaches in the country will look at the Pitt job, talk among themselves, and ask why should they consider it given that we pushed out a great coach like Dixon to get Stallings. They all talk to each other and this Pitt job is now viewed as a place where great coaches are "gently" nudged out the door so the administration can give a job to a buddy.
I would hope that if Stallings doesn't win a conference game this year and begins the conference schedule next year with a couple of losses, that Lyke will have the common sense to give him his notice and tell him there better be at least 6 conference wins next year or he's gone. If at the end of this season Stallings has less than 3 conference wins, I would also hope that Lyke is making efforts to look at new coaches as potential replacements.
If he wins 6 conference games next season and recruits 2 good players I'd be ecstatic as would Heather.
As I have always done, I simply try to share my honest thoughts. I'm glad and respect that you are quite optimistic about the future for the group.
I thought about that game when I wrote my comment. I went the route I did because UNH was indeed better, as was Pitt, and some of that score was dictated by good defense and slow tempo.
But let's just say for sure that those are two of the very top candidates.
I'd go with the RU loss at home by about 30 and the 50 point loss to UL as the 2 ugliest and embarrassing performances I've seen.
I agree that those were the ugliest Pitt performances. (It's also worth throwing in the second half of the Rutgers game in 2008.) I was speaking of combined performance, though. Obviously, Rutgers and UL played well.
I'm all for taking open shots too, but, when you have two 6'10 guys (Brown and Chuckupa3)) firing up 3's and barely getting rim, then that's not going to work consistently and get you in trouble.
That’s kind of what Stallings likes, though.
We can debate the merits but I don’t think he’s going to get away from his bigs shooting 3s if he thinks they can make them.
It seems like his ideal setup is a guy like Kornet or Przybyszewki on the perimeter with a guy like Ezeli or Damian Jones inside. Big tall stretch 4’s playing with tall, long rim protectors.
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You don't, but the team that you listed had three really good college basketball players on it. If you aren't going to have that one "stud" player, you need to have multiple really good college basketball players on your roster. Right now it looks like we have one guy that "should" reach that level, and maybe one other that reasonably "could". The fact that people have to continually talk up a guy who was recruited over at St. John's as possibly a big piece of the future is pretty telling. I mean sure, lets all hope that he's better here than he was there, but he's got to be a lot better here than there to even come close to the level of a Mike Young or Jamel Artis or James Robinson.
It’s funny what happens when you make a move to show you aren’t “settling for mediocrity” and then wind up finding out that you’re the only party who thought you were mediocre.
Stallings has said Ellison often looks like the best player on the floor in practice. Take that for what it is worth (I don't think he will be the 2nd best player on the team. I plugged him in there with the question mark because I was looking for an Artis compare.)
He did play significant minutes as an underclassmen at St.Johns. In the year DT is talking about, Ellison will be 2 years older.
So you have us closer to being a tournament team than DT, who has us needing 4 more pieces? Interested in your answer
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There’s a big difference between having talent and actually winning games. We’ll be lucky if some of these players turn into Artis, Young, Jeter, and Jones, when those guys only managed 4-14. You can project development as much as you want, but it doesn’t mean they’re going to go 10-10 in the ACC.
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