NET Rankings

[Sean Miller Fan]

Pitt is 81. I am surprised we are that low given we have played a pretty strong schedule.

Other teams of note
13 WVU
18 PSU
20 Duquesne
114 Nicholls (2nd in SLC behind SFA)
131 KST
174 NW
192 Northern Illinois
317 RMU

ACC
8 Louisville
13 Duke
27 FSU
39 Virginia
50 NC State
62 VT
75 Syracuse
81 Pitt
89 Miami
95 UNC
103 Wake
105 ND
128 GT
139 Clemson
143 BC

 

[TWPitt]

I am surprised Syracuse is still that high. They are in line for top pick in the draft next year.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

I am surprised Syracuse is still that high. They are in line for top pick in the draft next year.

Me too. Also, even though Duquesne hasn't lost yet, I expected them to have a worse NET than us. I don't know enough about NET but I woulda guessed we would have been around 50 and them around 80. Perhaps beating the worst teams in college basketball is the way to go? I thought NET eliminated that strategy.

Interestingly, our RPI is 66 and Duquesne's is 68. Duquesne being so high for playing nobody has to be giving some coaches some future scheduling philosophy ideas.

 

[pittchagg]

Serious question: I know Duquesne isn't playing any true home games this year. Are their "home" games at RMU considered to be "home" games for the purposes of NET? Or are they all "neutral site" games?

I'd think it'd be the former, but it would explain the disparity between their kenpom and NET ratings. In any case, given that the NET formula is still a bit of a black box, it seems clear that wins - regardless of opponent strength - means something for NET rankings, even if it doesn't help a team come selection sunday.

 

[DC_Area_Panther]

53 Rutgers = 81.96
Today's Sagarin ratings for comparison/contrast--

ACC
1 Duke = 94.18
11 Louisville = 88.04
17 Florida State = 87.05
24 Virginia = 86.39
28 NC State = 85.08
51 North Carolina = 82.45
59 Syracuse = 81.45
64 Virginia Tech = 80.82
68 Pittsburgh = 80.56
72 Notre Dame = 80.31
91 Miami-Florida = 78.63
97 Wake Forest = 77.56
110 Clemson = 76.47
118 Georgia Tech = 75.76
132 Boston College = 74.74

Others of Interest

12 WVU = 87.69
15 PSU = 87.11
53 Rutgers = 81.96
57 Duquesne = 81.55
104 Kan St = 76.89
111 NW = 76.20
158 N Illinois = 73.24
218 Monmouth = 69.15
226 Nicholls = 68.60
302 RMU = 63.33
345 Ark-Pin Blf = 58.20

 

[ameoba defense]

Me too. Also, even though Duquesne hasn't lost yet, I expected them to have a worse NET than us. I don't know enough about NET but I woulda guessed we would have been around 50 and them around 80. Perhaps beating the worst teams in college basketball is the way to go? I thought NET eliminated that strategy.

Interestingly, our RPI is 66 and Duquesne's is 68. Duquesne being so high for playing nobody has to be giving some coaches some future scheduling philosophy ideas.

We're being punished for losing at home to Nichols. All of Duquesne's opponents have been similar to Nichols, but they haven't lost to any of them. Had we won that game, I bet we're in the top 40.

 

[TWPitt]

We're being punished for losing at home to Nichols. All of Duquesne's opponents have been similar to Nichols, but they haven't lost to any of them. Had we won that game, I bet we're in the top 40.

Yeah I would guess same for Syracuse -- they don't have a bad loss yet, even though they have been blown out , their average loss this year is by 14.6 points to the 5 teams they have lost to.

wins vs - Colgate, Cornell, Bucknell GA Tech, Seattle
Losses to UVA / Ok State / PSU / Iowa / Georgetown

 

[DC_Area_Panther]

We're being punished for losing at home to Nichols. All of Duquesne's opponents have been similar to Nichols, but they haven't lost to any of them. Had we won that game, I bet we're in the top 40.

Sagarin's "Recent" rating has us #59 (81.37) and doubt it gives much weight to the Nichols loss.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

We're being punished for losing at home to Nichols. All of Duquesne's opponents have been similar to Nichols, but they haven't lost to any of them. Had we won that game, I bet we're in the top 40.

I'm sure that hurts us but with a NET of 114, that's really not a terrible loss by NET standards.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

Serious question: I know Duquesne isn't playing any true home games this year. Are their "home" games at RMU considered to be "home" games for the purposes of NET? Or are they all "neutral site" games?

I'd think it'd be the former, but it would explain the disparity between their kenpom and NET ratings. In any case, given that the NET formula is still a bit of a black box, it seems clear that wins - regardless of opponent strength - means something for NET rankings, even if it doesn't help a team come selection sunday.

If you look at what the NCAA published they have Duquesne's record as 5-0 at home and 4-0 neutral, so they are counting their home games at LaRoche and PPG, and I am sure when they start playing there, Robert Morris, as home games.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

I'm sure that hurts us but with a NET of 114, that's really not a terrible loss by NET standards.

I wonder if the NCAA is screwing up Nicolls ranking. According to the web site they have Nicholls record in non-D1 games as 0-0, when in reality it is 4-0. They are only 2-5 in D1 games.

 

[ameoba defense]

I wonder if the NCAA is screwing up Nicolls ranking. According to the web site they have Nicholls record in non-D1 games as 0-0, when in reality it is 4-0. They are only 2-5 in D1 games.

I thought they didn't count non D1 games.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

I thought they didn't count non D1 games.

That's what I'm saying. They aren't supposed to. But in the column on the NCAA web site for non-D1 games for Nicholls it says 0-0. They aren't 0-0 in those games, they are 4-0. Which means that their "NET record" should be 2-5, not 6-5.

It's possible that they figured it out correctly and just have the wrong numbers in the table. And it's also possible that they've accidentally screwed up their record. I could have missed someone, but besides Nicholls the highest ranked team with only two D1 wins is UT-Arlington at 2-7 and ranked 159.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

That's what I'm saying. They aren't supposed to. But in the column on the NCAA web site for non-D1 games for Nicholls it says 0-0. They aren't 0-0 in those games, they are 4-0. Which means that their "NET record" should be 2-5, not 6-5.

It's possible that they figured it out correctly and just have the wrong numbers in the table. And it's also possible that they've accidentally screwed up their record. I could have missed someone, but besides Nicholls the highest ranked team with only two D1 wins is UT-Arlington at 2-7 and ranked 159.

I thought their ranking was awfully good for having only 2 D1 wins. So maybe they did mess something up.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

I thought their ranking was awfully good for having only 2 D1 wins. So maybe they did mess something up.

It doesn't SEEM right. That doesn't mean that it ISN'T right, but if it is it surely is odd.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

It doesn't SEEM right. That doesn't mean that it ISN'T right, but if it is it surely is odd.

I don't understand NET at all really. I am still amazed Duquesne is 20 and we are 81. We lost games to #8 and #13. We are told NET is both predictive and rules-based. So you would think, NET would figure Duq would lose at Louisville and home vs WVU. We have decent wins over FSU and Rutgers and a "bad loss" to Nicholls but I would honestly say our "strength of record" if thats even a thing in college basketball is better than Duq's.

 

[ameoba defense]

I don't understand NET at all really. I am still amazed Duquesne is 20 and we are 81. We lost games to #8 and #13. We are told NET is both predictive and rules-based. So you would think, NET would figure Duq would lose at Louisville and home vs WVU. We have decent wins over FSU and Rutgers and a "bad loss" to Nicholls but I would honestly say our "strength of record" if thats even a thing in college basketball is better than Duq's.

I just looked at their schedule. We're seeing all of their opponents as garbage, but I noticed that NET has Indiana St. at 85, making that a quad 2 win for Duquesne. That win, along with having no losses, is giving them a boost. Liberty is at 19, also undefeated with a single quad 2 victory.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

I just looked at their schedule. We're seeing all of their opponents as garbage, but I noticed that NET has Indiana St. at 85, making that a quad 2 win for Duquesne. That win, along with having no losses, is giving them a boost. Liberty is at 19, also undefeated with a single quad 2 victory.

OK but 2 of our losses are to 8 and 13 which NET would figure Duq would have also lost. I thought NET was supposed to eliminate the idea that its better to beat the 200ish teams than lose to top teams. KenPom has Duq 60 and us at 73. That's more like it. Them being at 20 is really concerning because it seems to give everyone a blueprint of not to schedule anyone good. I mean they are so high that if they go 12-6 in the A10, their RPI will probably be somewhere in the 30s and they will be right there on the bubble and that's after playing an entire season with just playing 3-4 games vs NCAAT teams.

 

[str61166]

I generally want to see Duquesne do well, but what is up with the influx of their fans (or Pitt haters maybe) on Twitter and what not?

Craig Meyer asking Capel that Duquesne question and Alan Saunders doubling down on the outrage seemed to fire them all up saying Pitt is acting like Penn St does in football... right.

 

[ameoba defense]

I generally want to see Duquesne do well, but what is up with the influx of their fans (or Pitt haters maybe) on Twitter and what not?

Craig Meyer asking Capel that Duquesne question and Alan Saunders doubling down on the outrage seemed to fire them all up saying Pitt is acting like Penn St does in football... right.

I think it's quite the opposite. The Duquesne fans (probably mostly older alums who remember when the rivalry was hot) are acting like Pitt fans with respect to Penn St. I dislike Penn St. as much as anyone, but it gets ridiculous in here sometimes. They're making the same "local media is biased" claims I see here. I believe you get the coverage you deserve. Make yourself relevant, and you'll get the coverage. Lot's of parallels between Pitt football, and Duquesne basketball. Has been programs, longing for long ago "glory days".

 

[R-M-U-h-o-o-p-s-f-a-n]

If you look at what the NCAA published they have Duquesne's record as 5-0 at home and 4-0 neutral, so they are counting their home games at LaRoche and PPG, and I am sure when they start playing there, Robert Morris, as home games.

Speaking of RMU, big win tonight @ home vs an offensive powerhouse in Central Michigan.

 

[VincePITT]

76 after beating NIU!

 

[ameoba defense]

Speaking of RMU, big win tonight @ home vs an offensive powerhouse in Central Michigan.

I'm surprised RMU could get a MAC team to come to them. Usually an NEC team is left to play nothing but road games, with an occasional home game vs the very bottom of D1. Good job getting CMU to come, and then taking care of business. Maybe this is the year the Colonials get back near the top of the NEC.

 

[Atch]

Pitt is 81. I am surprised we are that low given we have played a pretty strong schedule.

Other teams of note
13 WVU
18 PSU
20 Duquesne
114 Nicholls (2nd in SLC behind SFA)
131 KST
174 NW
192 Northern Illinois
317 RMU

ACC
8 Louisville
13 Duke
27 FSU
39 Virginia
50 NC State
62 VT
75 Syracuse
81 Pitt
89 Miami
95 UNC
103 Wake
105 ND
128 GT
139 Clemson
143 BC

What does all of this mean? Does that mean that someone like Duquesne would be the 3rd best team in the ACC? If it does, then I wouldn’t put to much stock into these rankings.

 

[SoufOaklin4Life]

What does all of this mean? Does that mean that someone like Duquesne would be the 3rd best team in the ACC? If it does, then I wouldn’t put to much stock into these rankings.

It means in the middle of December with a low sample size it’s not relevant

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

What does all of this mean? Does that mean that someone like Duquesne would be the 3rd best team in the ACC? If it does, then I wouldn’t put to much stock into these rankings.

Well you or I might not put much stock in them, but the NCAA does. In fact a day or two before they released the first rankings they had an article on their web site talking about how great they were last season, and how even the first rankings were so good.

 

[DC_Area_Panther]

Well you or I might not put much stock in them, but the NCAA does. In fact a day or two before they released the first rankings they had an article on their web site talking about how great they were last season, and how even the first rankings were so good.

Well, IMHO, just the latest example of the NCAA using a poor system---or at least one that is very inaccurate until much later in a season.

Sagarin having Pitt and Duquesne much closer right now is one example of a far more accurate assessment--at least at this point in the season.

They do have Duquesne about 1 point per game better (neutral site) but NET having them at #20 is absolutely absurd--

Sagarin today has it

57 Duquesne = 81.61
65 Pittsburgh = 80.65

And today's Sagarin recent ratings are--

46 Duquesne = 83.21
58 Pittsburgh = 81.77

 

[ameoba defense]

Well, we'll find out soon enough whether the Dukes are overrated. The top of the A10 is looking pretty good, so they'll be tested. Needless to say that Pitt will be tested. Got to defend the home court. If the Boston College level teams come in here and win, there is no way we can have even a modestly successful season. We really need to post a winning record in order to maintain the image of Pitt as a program on the rise. Can't have the other coaches pointing to another losing season as an indication that Capel won't get it done.

 

[DC_Area_Panther]

Well, we'll find out soon enough whether the Dukes are overrated. The top of the A10 is looking pretty good, so they'll be tested. Needless to say that Pitt will be tested. Got to defend the home court. If the Boston College level teams come in here and win, there is no way we can have even a modestly successful season. We really need to post a winning record in order to maintain the image of Pitt as a program on the rise. Can't have the other coaches pointing to another losing season as an indication that Capel won't get it done.

Boston College level teams are the kind of teams we are already beating at home and on neutral sites--Kansas St., Northwestern, Rutgers, N. Illinois all fall into that strength category per Sagarin's computer. Of course we can be upset by teams at that level; however, generally speaking, we should expect to beat such teams at the Pete.

 

[ameoba defense]

Boston College level teams are the kind of teams we are already beating at home and on neutral sites--Kansas St., Northwestern, Rutgers, N. Illinois all fall into that strength category per Sagarin's computer. Of course we can be upset by teams at that level; however, generally speaking, we should expect to beat such teams at the Pete.

Those are the types of teams you have to beat at home if you wish to hear your name called in March. Beat them, and the worst teams at home and away, and you'll have a chance. Steal a couple from a top team at home, or a middling team on the road, and you might even get a decent seed. Got to stack some Q2 wins.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

Well, we'll find out soon enough whether the Dukes are overrated. The top of the A10 is looking pretty good, so they'll be tested.

They are still three weeks away from playing their first true road game of the season. They are still six weeks away from playing Dayton, the one potentially really good team in the A10. They play one Pomeroy top 60 team at home all season (Dayton), and they only play two of them on the road (Dayton and VCU). It's a better league that it was last season, but it's still not very good.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

They are still three weeks away from playing their first true road game of the season. They are still six weeks away from playing Dayton, the one potentially really good team in the A10. They play one Pomeroy top 60 team at home all season (Dayton), and they only play two of them on the road (Dayton and VCU). It's a better league that it was last season, but it's still not very good.

Yea, I dont l know what we will "learn" about Duquesne from the A10. I already know they are a decent team. They haven't played anybody but bad teams lose some of those games. I would have them in that next group behind Dayton and VCU. They could finish as high as 3rd but I think the A10 only gets 2 in this year. What would be interesting is if Duquesne goes like 28-6 with no wins vs NCAAT teams. Would that get them in? They'd be a heck of an interesting case given how bad their schedule is. I think that is a possibility. I predict they go 12-6 in the A10.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

What would be interesting is if Duquesne goes like 28-6 with no wins vs NCAAT teams. Would that get them in?

No, and it wouldn't even get them close. They'd be looked at like a decent mid-major that won their league and didn't win their tournament. They are almost certainly going to have to win one of their two games against Dayton or their game against VCU, and maybe even two of those, to get any kind of consideration.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

No, and it wouldn't even get them close. They'd be looked at like a decent mid-major that won their league and didn't win their tournament. They are almost certainly going to have to win one of their two games against Dayton or their game against VCU, and maybe even two of those, to get any kind of consideration.

Yea but I think they'd be close. Now, what if they win just ONE game vs an NCAAT team? They would be a one of a kind case because they dont play in a true mid-major league. The A10, though down, is still significantly better than like the CAA, MAAC, OVC, etc so could they really keep a 28-6 A10 team out? There is really no precedent for that.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

Yea but I think they'd be close. Now, what if they win just ONE game vs an NCAAT team? They would be a one of a kind case because they dont play in a true mid-major league. The A10, though down, is still significantly better than like the CAA, MAAC, OVC, etc so could they really keep a 28-6 A10 team out? There is really no precedent for that.

There are teams every year with records in the 28-6 range that end up with no wins over tournament teams, and none of those teams ever make the tournament. The fact that Duquesne is in the A10 rather than the CAA won't make any difference.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

There are teams every year with records in the 28-6 range that end up with no wins over tournament teams, and none of those teams ever make the tournament. The fact that Duquesne is in the A10 rather than the CAA won't make any difference.

The difference is, they will have many more wins over those 75-150 teams than a CAA team would

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

The difference is, they will have many more wins over those 75-150 teams than a CAA team would

If you think the committee is going to say "well you didn't actually beat any good teams, but you beat some teams around 100, so we'll put you in" then first of all, good luck to you. But secondly, I have to ask, have you ever paid attention to this stuff before?

 

[R-M-U-h-o-o-p-s-f-a-n]

I'm surprised RMU could get a MAC team to come to them. Usually an NEC team is left to play nothing but road games, with an occasional home game vs the very bottom of D1. Good job getting CMU to come, and then taking care of business. Maybe this is the year the Colonials get back near the top of the NEC.

Ya RMU normally has a few home OOC games each year. It’s not uncommon for them to host a Horizon League, MAC, or MAAC team for a couple of their few OOC home games.

Next year I know YSU, Cleveland State, and Florida Gulf Coast will all be home @ RMU as returning games in home-home series.

 

[Sean Miller Fan]

If you think the committee is going to say "well you didn't actually beat any good teams, but you beat some teams around 100, so we'll put you in" then first of all, good luck to you. But secondly, I have to ask, have you ever paid attention to this stuff before?

They put in Iona 5-6 years ago with similar results.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

They put in Iona 5-6 years ago with similar results.

2012.

One small difference though. I don't have the RPI number and don't feel like looking for it, but Iona's non-conference SOS that season on Pomeroy was 42. Duquesne's this season so far is 320.

Oh, wait, that's not a small difference. That's a HUGE difference.