Notre Dame with another decommit... 4 star LB

[President Stache]

Pete Werner.

I dont understand the local kids that say they are picking a school based on not the football team. If you attending a college on a FOOTBALL SCHOLARSHIP, although everything matters within that school, the main thing IS the football team. The defense coordinator was let go, and Kelly may be too with the coaches... the team is 4-8, it is not a place that is on the upswing. Anyways, we shall see what happens there. I think Kelly gets another year, and rightfully so.

 

[steel_curtain]

-These guys got linked up and became friends and think they are going to save that sinking ship Notre Dame football program. They committed to the school and nothing else. The part that gets me, is that there is actual hate coming out from the player, coaches, and fans for Brian Kelley. People literally hate him now. Sometimes you can't lead a blind horse. These pa players headed to notre dame must be blind, and deaf.

 

[9nationalchampionships]

Werner has offers from everywhere. No need to play for a sinking ship!

 

[Las Panteras]

Pete Werner.

I dont understand the local kids that say they are picking a school based on not the football team. If you attending a college on a FOOTBALL SCHOLARSHIP, although everything matters within that school, the main thing IS the football team. The defense coordinator was let go, and Kelly may be too with the coaches... the team is 4-8, it is not a place that is on the upswing. Anyways, we shall see what happens there. I think Kelly gets another year, and rightfully so.

if my son was good enough to play at Notre Dame...or Stanford.....but decided he wanted to transfer out and go play at say....West Virginia.....

How would I as a father react?

I would encourage him to stay and get the degree. If he never saw the field, so what? I would think most fathers would do the same but maybe not.

I hear what you are saying, for sure......but its Notre Dame, and there is more than the 4 years of running out of the tunnel to consider.

 

[President Stache]

if my son was good enough to play at Notre Dame...or Stanford.....but decided he wanted to transfer out and go play at say....West Virginia.....

How would I as a father react?

I would encourage him to stay and get the degree. If he never saw the field, so what? I would think most fathers would do the same but maybe not.

I hear what you are saying, for sure......but its Notre Dame, and there is more than the 4 years of running out of the tunnel to consider.

I guess it depends on your kid haha... but, sure, I completely agree... jeez, you had to cement your point with west virginia... well played, well played. Then again, if my son turned down an offer from Yale to go play football at wherever, I would be a little disappointed as well.

I guess, as an engineer, if I am going to Duke for a biomedical engineering degree, then before I arrive they tell me they are doing away with that school and I have to now go into chemical engineering, I would have to think long about that and say, hey, I should just go to Pitt, where my tuition is much cheaper (happened to me, but for a different reason). So, to correlate to football, you are getting a football scholarship, so your main goal is to make a million a year in the NFL at that point (especially if you are good enough to get offers from ND, PItt, and others). Then THAT needs to be your focus. How can I see the field quickly, play well, learn an NFL system, and look presentable and attractive to the NFL.

If that answer is not playing for Narduzzi at Pitt, then so be it. I would vigorously disagree, but as you say, ND isnt a bad place to study.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Maybe the local kids realize Kelly will be gone and just don't care. They obviously committed to the school.

 

[Piranha]

if my son was good enough to play at Notre Dame...or Stanford.....but decided he wanted to transfer out and go play at say....West Virginia.....

How would I as a father react?

I would encourage him to stay and get the degree. If he never saw the field, so what? I would think most fathers would do the same but maybe not.

I hear what you are saying, for sure......but its Notre Dame, and there is more than the 4 years of running out of the tunnel to consider.

If you have offers from Michigan, Stanford, ND, etc. then why not choose the school that provides good academics and a coach who is not on the hot seat?

 

[9nationalchampionships]

I agree with you that getting a degree from a good school is #1 but he can do that and play football as well. He has rides from Cal, Northwestern, Duke, PITT, O$U, etc.

if my son was good enough to play at Notre Dame...or Stanford.....but decided he wanted to transfer out and go play at say....West Virginia.....

How would I as a father react?

I would encourage him to stay and get the degree. If he never saw the field, so what? I would think most fathers would do the same but maybe not.

I hear what you are saying, for sure......but its Notre Dame, and there is more than the 4 years of running out of the tunnel to consider.

 

[Jpripper88]

I guess it depends on your kid haha... but, sure, I completely agree... jeez, you had to cement your point with west virginia... well played, well played. Then again, if my son turned down an offer from Yale to go play football at wherever, I would be a little disappointed as well.

I guess, as an engineer, if I am going to Duke for a biomedical engineering degree, then before I arrive they tell me they are doing away with that school and I have to now go into chemical engineering, I would have to think long about that and say, hey, I should just go to Pitt, where my tuition is much cheaper (happened to me, but for a different reason). So, to correlate to football, you are getting a football scholarship, so your main goal is to make a million a year in the NFL at that point (especially if you are good enough to get offers from ND, PItt, and others). Then THAT needs to be your focus. How can I see the field quickly, play well, learn an NFL system, and look presentable and attractive to the NFL.

If that answer is not playing for Narduzzi at Pitt, then so be it. I would vigorously disagree, but as you say, ND isnt a bad place to study.

If you are dealing with intelligent recruits/families, who are actually breaking that stuff down, they should be smart enough to barely consider "millions in the NFL" at all because there is practically no chance a recruit ends up with a fruitful NFL career.

 

[Jpripper88]

I agree with you that getting a degree from a good school is #1 but he can do that and play football as well. He has rides from Cal, Northwestern, Duke, PITT, O$U, etc.

There is a big difference in a lot of those schools for undergraduate reputation, but more importantly an enormous difference in the networks and likely alumni support for a football player between those schools. That is where certain places make a big difference.

 

[raleighpanther]

In terms of losing verbals, having a coach get fired can hurt a recruiting class. But in this case, the opposite may be true.

I think most of these kids committed to ND first, and if Kelly goes, and is replaced by someone decent, which is what we would expect, that should help firm up, rather than hurt this recruiting class. Kelly going could also reduce the number of transfers that might go if he stays.

 

[~IRWT~]

According to Payscale the average mid career WVU grad makes $80k and the average mid career Pitt grad makes $86k. In fact, the average from WVU's Tech campus is $90k. Not the striking difference you guys would have the world believe.

 

[Las Panteras]

According to Payscale the average mid career WVU grad makes $80k and the average mid career Pitt grad makes $86k. In fact, the average from WVU's Tech campus is $90k. Not the striking difference you guys would have the world believe.

well,

I stand corrected. Thanks for the clarification. I didn't know restoring burnt couches paid so well.

I guess people come from all over the world to purchase a restored burnt couch...maybe because no one else on earth is stupid enough to burn a couch in the first place.........

 

[President Stache]

If you are dealing with intelligent recruits/families, who are actually breaking that stuff down, they should be smart enough to barely consider "millions in the NFL" at all because there is practically no chance a recruit ends up with a fruitful NFL career.

mmmm .... well... I disagree with that assessment. Notre Dame has an average of 5 drafted per year, say they take 20 a year, that is a 25% chance of making the NFL. You take Pitt even, with those invited to camp we had over 30 percent last year alone.

They have 30 just on NFL rosters now, so that is about 4-5 average per year that actually MAKE an NFL team. If you have the same chance of

If you are a top 4-5 star recruit and you dont think you will make the NFL, then there are bigger issues with you. And IF you dont make it, then Notre Dame or Pitt are fine colleges to graduate from.

 

[Jpripper88]

mmmm .... well... I disagree with that assessment. Notre Dame has an average of 5 drafted per year, say they take 20 a year, that is a 25% chance of making the NFL. You take Pitt even, with those invited to camp we had over 30 percent last year alone.

They have 30 just on NFL rosters now, so that is about 4-5 average per year that actually MAKE an NFL team. If you have the same chance of

If you are a top 4-5 star recruit and you dont think you will make the NFL, then there are bigger issues with you. And IF you dont make it, then Notre Dame or Pitt are fine colleges to graduate from.

First of all, those numbers don't jive with reality. The reality is that even for a school like ND, getting 5 players drafted still likely means only 3 or 4 are likely to make a team, ever, and 2-3 are likely to survive long enough to make "millions" from the NFL. That means you can maybe count on 2 out of more like 20-25 players "making millions" from the NFL. Getting invited to a camp means absolutely nothing in this type of logical evaluation. So you have a 10% chance, if you go to a top school like ND of "making millions" from the NFL. Even a 2016 3rd rounder from ND was cut this year. Most players don't make even close to "millions" from the NFL. Most are unlikely to ever make $1M even before you take out their fees and increased costs for things like training.

Currently, ND has about 20 players in the league who are actually in that stratosphere. Many guys are making the minimum and clawing to get their 3-5 years in the league and so their real career earnings will have to come from something other than football, even though they are the ones who "made it".

The difference is the undergrad education some places offer and the football player can take advantage of and most importantly the alumni network willing to help former players.

 

[PantherO]

There are many great educational schools whose football programs can achieve 4-8.

If running out of specific tunnel is what floats your boat..so be it.

 

[President Stache]

First of all, those numbers don't jive with reality. The reality is that even for a school like ND, getting 5 players drafted still likely means only 3 or 4 are likely to make a team, ever, and 2-3 are likely to survive long enough to make "millions" from the NFL. That means you can maybe count on 2 out of more like 20-25 players "making millions" from the NFL. Getting invited to a camp means absolutely nothing in this type of logical evaluation. So you have a 10% chance, if you go to a top school like ND of "making millions" from the NFL. Even a 2016 3rd rounder from ND was cut this year. Most players don't make even close to "millions" from the NFL. Most are unlikely to ever make $1M even before you take out their fees and increased costs for things like training.

Currently, ND has about 20 players in the league who are actually in that stratosphere. Many guys are making the minimum and clawing to get their 3-5 years in the league and so their real career earnings will have to come from something other than football, even though they are the ones who "made it".

The difference is the undergrad education some places offer and the football player can take advantage of and most importantly the alumni network willing to help former players.

Well... first we ARE talking about Notre Dame

Secondly, minimum NFL salary is 450,000 a year... minimum. At your "clawing for 3-5 years" claim, that is 1.4M-2.3M US Dollars. Average NFL salary is 1.9 million per year.

Average US salary with an undergrad degree is $54,000 a year. So, at the paltry 'clawing for 3-5 year rate' these fighters in the league would have to work for 30 years to match the low end of that, and for 9 years of one minumum year salary

 

[wbrpanther]

if my son was good enough to play at Notre Dame...or Stanford.....but decided he wanted to transfer out and go play at say....West Virginia.....

How would I as a father react?

I would encourage him to stay and get the degree. If he never saw the field, so what? I would think most fathers would do the same but maybe not.

I hear what you are saying, for sure......but its Notre Dame, and there is more than the 4 years of running out of the tunnel to consider.

As a good father you would talk to him about his options. Encourage him to stay at one of those schools. Then let him make the decision about his future and support him to the fullest.

This is providing he doesn't want to go to Ped State, of course.

 

[Jpripper88]

Well... first we ARE talking about Notre Dame

Secondly, minimum NFL salary is 450,000 a year... minimum. At your "clawing for 3-5 years" claim, that is 1.4M-2.3M US Dollars. Average NFL salary is 1.9 million per year.

Average US salary with an undergrad degree is $54,000 a year. So, at the paltry 'clawing for 3-5 year rate' these fighters in the league would have to work for 30 years to match the low end of that, and for 9 years of one minumum year salary

You were responding about multiple options (you said "ND, Pitt, and others") for school/football and not just ND. Yes, 10-15% (at the best programs) of the players can make an average of $2M in a few years in the NFL. Even if we give you 20% and the $2.3M number that equates to an average NFL career potential of $460K. Obviously some will make $10M and an overwhelming majority will make absolutely nothing and many will even spend on training and prep over a few years of hope and essentially make $0 out of it. So, best case average expected income from this is probably $460k - $46k for agents and training = $414K in (best case leaving them with future earning years) 3 years. What would be expected at a program of lesser draft pick stature, but maybe a better alumni support setup? Not sure, but probably not so much less that the focus of the decision should be on the NFL and not the 30-40 years of prospects after the football days are over.

The smart families/recruits would focus on entire potential and not just the pie in the sky because most will get absolutely nothing out of the NFL.

 

[President Stache]

You were responding about multiple options (you said "ND, Pitt, and others") for school/football and not just ND. Yes, 10-15% (at the best programs) of the players can make an average of $2M in a few years in the NFL. Even if we give you 20% and the $2.3M number that equates to an average NFL career potential of $460K. Obviously some will make $10M and an overwhelming majority will make absolutely nothing and many will even spend on training and prep over a few years of hope and essentially make $0 out of it. So, best case average expected income from this is probably $460k - $46k for agents and training = $414K in (best case leaving them with future earning years) 3 years. What would be expected at a program of lesser draft pick stature, but maybe a better alumni support setup? Not sure, but probably not so much less that the focus of the decision should be on the NFL and not the 30-40 years of prospects after the football days are over.

The smart families/recruits would focus on entire potential and not just the pie in the sky because most will get absolutely nothing out of the NFL.

Anyways, my point is it isnt "practically no chance", and you didnt prove otherwise.

Obviously you should choose a school that you can also learn a trade of your choice that has a good school in that trade. Depending on what that is, your school may be ND, Pitt, or any number of schools

 

[Jpripper88]

Anyways, my point is it isnt "practically no chance", and you didnt prove otherwise.

Obviously you should choose a school that you can also learn a trade of your choice that has a good school in that trade. Depending on what that is, your school may be ND, Pitt, or any number of schools

It is practically no chance and I did prove that. Your point was based on 20% (which is way too high) of recruits coming into a school like Notre Dame and that their focus should be on "making a million a year in the NFL" and not on things like how the school, program, and alumni can help them succeed outside of the NFL pipe dream. The average expected (with your numbers and not the more realistic scenarios) career earnings from the NFL at a top school is only about $460k TOTAL.

Maybe it is semantics, but I certainly don't consider (at best) 10% being much greater than "practically no chance" of "making a million a year in the NFL" if you go to a top producing school like ND. Certainly not when you are advocating that being the most important variable for a recruit and there is still a chance (without being that much lower) of reaching that goal at a place like Pitt or other schools who aren't churning out pros at the same rate.

 

[Chescat]

You were responding about multiple options (you said "ND, Pitt, and others") for school/football and not just ND. Yes, 10-15% (at the best programs) of the players can make an average of $2M in a few years in the NFL. Even if we give you 20% and the $2.3M number that equates to an average NFL career potential of $460K. Obviously some will make $10M and an overwhelming majority will make absolutely nothing and many will even spend on training and prep over a few years of hope and essentially make $0 out of it. So, best case average expected income from this is probably $460k - $46k for agents and training = $414K in (best case leaving them with future earning years) 3 years. What would be expected at a program of lesser draft pick stature, but maybe a better alumni support setup? Not sure, but probably not so much less that the focus of the decision should be on the NFL and not the 30-40 years of prospects after the football days are over.

The smart families/recruits would focus on entire potential and not just the pie in the sky because most will get absolutely nothing out of the NFL.

You and Stache did a great job analyzing pros and cons using specific #'rs, $$$, and percentages.But as already mentioned, it is NOTRE DAME. Now I'm no fan of their team and am not overwhelmed with the institution, even though it's has a great reputation educationally. That
doesn't mean that prospective recruits and their families would agree with my assessment. In fact, I suspect most don't. With that said, it's no surprise to me that many of these recruits and
their families will stick with their original commitment. Regardless of Kelly, and this year's record,
once again...IT IS NOTRE DAME with it's mystique and all that goes with it. It has the vast
resources to buy out Wiess (Multi million dollar buyout) and can easily do the same with Kelly.
Recruits and their families know they'll land a highly regarded replacement (certainly not a Fraud
or a wife beater...., sound familiar? LOL). They committed to the institution, the football tradition,
the education, and the mystique. All of that remains....with Kelly or without Kelly.

 

[President Stache]

It is practically no chance and I did prove that. Your point was based on 20% (which is way too high) of recruits coming into a school like Notre Dame and that their focus should be on "making a million a year in the NFL" and not on things like how the school, program, and alumni can help them succeed outside of the NFL pipe dream. The average expected (with your numbers and not the more realistic scenarios) career earnings from the NFL at a top school is only about $460k TOTAL.

Maybe it is semantics, but I certainly don't consider (at best) 10% being much greater than "practically no chance" of "making a million a year in the NFL" if you go to a top producing school like ND. Certainly not when you are advocating that being the most important variable for a recruit and there is still a chance (without being that much lower) of reaching that goal at a place like Pitt or other schools who aren't churning out pros at the same rate.

Sorry, you are wrong, I proved that.

So... to recap... your feeling is that 4 and 5 star players should only pick schools that give them good education and degrees because there is vitually no chance of making the NFL on any level?? That is tremendous news for the Ivy league schools for sure.

I swear, some of you people will disagree with the sun coming up just to hear yourselves debate.

 

[President Stache]

You and Stache did a great job analyzing pros and cons using specific #'rs, $$$, and percentages.But as already mentioned, it is NOTRE DAME. Now I'm no fan of their team and am not overwhelmed with the institution, even though it's has a great reputation educationally. That
doesn't mean that prospective recruits and their families would agree with my assessment. In fact, I suspect most don't. With that said, it's no surprise to me that many of these recruits and
their families will stick with their original commitment. Regardless of Kelly, and this year's record,
once again...IT IS NOTRE DAME with it's mystique and all that goes with it. It has the vast
resources to buy out Wiess (Multi million dollar buyout) and can easily do the same with Kelly.
Recruits and their families know they'll land a highly regarded replacement (certainly not a Fraud
or a wife beater...., sound familiar? LOL). They committed to the institution, the football tradition,
the education, and the mystique. All of that remains....with Kelly or without Kelly.

yeah... but the comment is getting to the NFL. I am sure ND will get a great coach, no doubt about it, but going to a school with an unknown at DC and HC I feel is a risk for a kid. No admin come in, like certain kids, and your career could be over before it begins. Sure, you can still enjoy lovely south bend, Indiana... get that great degree and move on with your life's work, but you would think you would rather go to a school where you mesh with the current coaches.

 

[Jpripper88]

Sorry, you are wrong, I proved that.

So... to recap... your feeling is that 4 and 5 star players should only pick schools that give them good education and degrees because there is vitually no chance of making the NFL on any level?? That is tremendous news for the Ivy league schools for sure.

I swear, some of you people will disagree with the sun coming up just to hear yourselves debate.

You didn't prove anything. I proved your premise (That "making a million a year in the NFL" should be the primary decision factor for an FBS football recruit.) was misguided.

No, that is absolutely not what I said. In fact, I made the point that the increased earning potential from a solid NFL talent producer like ND to a school like Pitt is miniscule and thus the focus should be on the education, but most importantly the alumni support and networking. Obviously ND still wins that battle in this comparison, but in many other situations programs wouldn't win both sides.

yeah... but the comment is getting to the NFL. I am sure ND will get a great coach, no doubt about it, but going to a school with an unknown at DC and HC I feel is a risk for a kid. No admin come in, like certain kids, and your career could be over before it begins. Sure, you can still enjoy lovely south bend, Indiana... get that great degree and move on with your life's work, but you would think you would rather go to a school where you mesh with the current coaches.

Your comment was not "getting to the NFL" but instead "making a million a year in the NFL" should be the primary decision factor for an FBS football recruit. Those are drastically different scenarios and stances.

 

[paschuler1970]

As for ND vrs Pitt graduation salaries and education, it really depends on your major also. I graduated from Pitt in 1970, two of my classmates were on the football team (Met. Engineering.). I was a commuter and took Metallurgical Engineering. I would say my earnings beat a lot of ND graduates. I had no football scholarship since I was a puny kid (5'9" and about 140#). So bottom line it's the individual and if he gets a GOOD education at any reputable college. I felt Kelly was a bad choice for ND simply because he left Cincinnati before their bowl game. Integrity means something!!!

 

[mehinpgh]

According to Payscale the average mid career WVU grad makes $80k and the average mid career Pitt grad makes $86k. In fact, the average from WVU's Tech campus is $90k. Not the striking difference you guys would have the world believe.

Could you define mid-career? I'm just curious what that means? The typical person works about 40 years (graduate college at 22/23 and retire at 62/63), so would mid career be someone that is about 42 or 43? That seems awfully low for a Pitt grad 20 years into a career?

 

[Chescat]

Great thread, something not mentioned...give me a set of statistics and I'll bend them to meet almost any scenario; give me the opposite scenario and the statistics can be bent to support that scenario as well. Happens all the time lol. Politics anyone?

BTW...who is the 4 star de commitment? Do we have a shot at him? Funny how the title in the original post was lost in all this.

 

[President Stache]

You didn't prove anything. I proved your premise (That "making a million a year in the NFL" should be the primary decision factor for an FBS football recruit.) was misguided.

No, that is absolutely not what I said. In fact, I made the point that the increased earning potential from a solid NFL talent producer like ND to a school like Pitt is miniscule and thus the focus should be on the education, but most importantly the alumni support and networking. Obviously ND still wins that battle in this comparison, but in many other situations programs wouldn't win both sides.


Your comment was not "getting to the NFL" but instead "making a million a year in the NFL" should be the primary decision factor for an FBS football recruit. Those are drastically different scenarios and stances.

No, totally incorrect, that wasnt my premise at all. I said getting to the NFL, a million a year was just emphasizing what NFL players make (average 1.9 million a year). It is a very silly arguement to say... "um, well heck if we cant make one million a year, and only 500 K a year, I am a total failure" I mean, what is that??? Is that really your stance?

You need to re-read my message, it was making the NFL and getting a big contract (which is ANY NFL contract)

 

[President Stache]

Great thread, something not mentioned...give me a set of statistics and I'll bend them to meet almost any scenario; give me the opposite scenario and the statistics can be bent to support that scenario as well. Happens all the time lol. Politics anyone?

BTW...who is the 4 star de commitment? Do we have a shot at him? Funny how the title in the original post was lost in all this.

I posted his name in the first 2 words... Pete Werner

 

[Chescat]

I posted his name in the first 2 words... Pete Werner

Thank you!

 

[Jpripper88]

No, totally incorrect, that wasnt my premise at all. I said getting to the NFL, a million a year was just emphasizing what NFL players make (average 1.9 million a year). It is a very silly arguement to say... "um, well heck if we cant make one million a year, and only 500 K a year, I am a total failure" I mean, what is that??? Is that really your stance?

You need to re-read my message, it was making the NFL and getting a big contract (which is ANY NFL contract)

I told you my stance. It is that it would be foolish for a recruit to have an NFL career as their most important factor when considering a school because the chances they will make anything close to "millions" or "a million a year" in the NFL is extremely low. Now, if we are being honest, most of these kids and families are from lower socio-economic backgrounds and from families with little advanced education, so certainly many of them think that way. That is probably why many of them end up in almost worse situations than before or bankrupt, even if they do get a cup of coffee in the NFL.

I don't understand how you and guys like steel try to change your position when it is typed out. You literally posted: "You are getting a football scholarship, so your main goal is to make a million a year in the NFL. THAT needs to be your focus."

You could go back and edit that post to mean something different, but that is what you said. The responses were to what you said, not some other meaning you meant to relay, but didn't.