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Off topic: The Kip Wells Syndrome

Saboteur II

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Kip Wells was the best bullpen pitcher in baseball but the worst starting pitcher I recall watching.
He could not get out of the 1st two innings without being down 4,5, 6 runs. It was like betting on the sunrise.
Today in Wrigley Field, the Pirates gave up 8 runs in the first inning.
I swear that Kip Wells lives on in the Pirate locker room. Nothing is worse when attending a game than losing it in the first inning.
 
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I got a text from a buddy that the Pirates were not only losing 9-0 but getting no hit through 5. I hadn’t watched any of their games all season to now, but the prospect of their getting no-hit in one game and winning, then getting no-hit and losing in the very next game, I couldn’t risk missing that. Of course they spoiled even that, by immediately getting a hit (a very weak bloop single, appropriately). They can’t even lose right.
 
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Kip Wells was the best bullpen pitcher in baseball but the worst starting pitcher I recall watching.
He could not get out of the 1st two innings without being down 4,5, 6 runs. It was like betting on the sunrise.
Today in Wrigley Field, the Pirates gave up 8 runs in the first inning.
I swear that Kip Wells lives on in the Pirate locker room. Nothing is worse when attending a game than losing it in the first inning.

Lol There is definitely worse. At least some teams have a shot. I'd rather be a fan of a team that trys to put a winner on the field and just dealing with the occasional poor first inning then knowing that your team has zero chance year after year.
 
Odd timing - because quite literally they started a reliever tonight (with the intent to put the 2 or 3 middle relief innings first)

Peters has done well in that role. Apparently got clobbered tonight though.
 
Kip Wells was the best bullpen pitcher in baseball but the worst starting pitcher I recall watching.
He could not get out of the 1st two innings without being down 4,5, 6 runs. It was like betting on the sunrise.
Today in Wrigley Field, the Pirates gave up 8 runs in the first inning.
I swear that Kip Wells lives on in the Pirate locker room. Nothing is worse when attending a game than losing it in the first inning.
Why are you watching a Pirates baseball game? Who does this?
 
Odd timing - because quite literally they started a reliever tonight (with the intent to put the 2 or 3 middle relief innings first)

Peters has done well in that role. Apparently got clobbered tonight though.
Maybe he thought he was pitching batting practice.
 
Wow, I always remembered Kip Wells as being much better than the stats I just looked up. We have to lead the history of the league in guys who had good stuff but didn't perform well.
 
I love when they bring in new coaches and/or a GM. There is always so much made of how this time, everything is going to work out. Instead, they're out there pulling guys off the scrap heap just like that last bunch. I know you just can't buy a winner but you can certainly go cheap on a loser.

Yeah, I think the Archer trade was the last straw for Huntington. It was time for Nutting to fool everyone into believing he's actually trying again. Same cake; different icing.
 
Yeah, I think the Archer trade was the last straw for Huntington. It was time for Nutting to fool everyone into believing he's actually trying again. Same cake; different icing.
The most telling thing is that there isn't any sense of urgency. I know there are economic limitations but the lack of aggressiveness is what is most troubling.
 
The most telling thing is that there isn't any sense of urgency. I know there are economic limitations but the lack of aggressiveness is what is most troubling.
I used to be all about hanging on to every prospect. That's just how my mind works. I'd rather give someone $100 than a $10 scratch-off ticket, just because I wouldn't want the regret if it ended up being a big winner that I had in my possession.

But the more I see these guys come up here and become shells of what they're supposed to be, the more I think you need to just go for it every now and then.
 
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I used to be all about hanging on to every prospect. That's just how my mind works. I'd rather give someone $100 than a $10 scratch-off ticket, just because I wouldn't want the regret if it ended up being a big winner that I had in my possession.

But the more I see these guys come up here and become shells of what they're supposed to be, the more I think you need to just go for it every now and then.
Prospect development is difficult in any sport but the Pirates seem to miss the boat more often than not. Not sure if it's because they just don't invest in their prospects or what the problem is. We know for a fact that they weren't handling their pitchers very well by some things that came out so I'm guessing if you think they're cheap at the top level, it's probably worse the further down you go.
 
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Prospect development is difficult in any sport but the Pirates seem to miss the boat more often than not. Not sure if it's because they just don't invest in their prospects or what the problem is. We know for a fact that they weren't handling their pitchers very well by some things that came out so I'm guessing if you think they're cheap at the top level, it's probably worse the further down you go.
Mentally, their prospects gotta be depressed at what looks like a dead end if/when they make the bigs. Work like a dog to dominate in towns like freaking Altoona just to eventually get the call up to lose 100 games and get sold off at the trade deadline.
 
Kip Wells was the best bullpen pitcher in baseball but the worst starting pitcher I recall watching.
He could not get out of the 1st two innings without being down 4,5, 6 runs. It was like betting on the sunrise.
Today in Wrigley Field, the Pirates gave up 8 runs in the first inning.
I swear that Kip Wells lives on in the Pirate locker room. Nothing is worse when attending a game than losing it in the first inning.
I'm more familiar with the Dawn Wells syndrome whereby Maryann is much much hotter than the movie star...
 
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Dawn Wells > Kip Wells. Kip was the ultimate quiche-eater. Great stuff but never figured it out between the ears. A teammate, Josh Fogg (as in bulldog) would battle and scratch for five innings and at least keep the Pirates in games most times despite having far fewer natural gifts physically. On the Kip Wells scale, Mitch Keller is about a 9.5.
 
Kip Wells was the best bullpen pitcher in baseball but the worst starting pitcher I recall watching.
He could not get out of the 1st two innings without being down 4,5, 6 runs. It was like betting on the sunrise.
Today in Wrigley Field, the Pirates gave up 8 runs in the first inning.
I swear that Kip Wells lives on in the Pirate locker room. Nothing is worse when attending a game than losing it in the first inning.
I’m not sure exactly what you are remembering but Kip Wells had 2 really decent seasons as a starting pitcher during his first two years for the Pirates. And he was almost completely a starter before coming to the Pirates. Like many pitchers, his career fell off because of health issues.
 
Kip Wells was a decent back of the rotation pitcher. From what I remember he had some pop in his bat too. The problem was he was our "ace", and the rest of the rotation should have been relievers. Zach Duke and Tom Gorzelanny eventually did become relievers, and had long careers.
 
Prospect development is difficult in any sport but the Pirates seem to miss the boat more often than not. Not sure if it's because they just don't invest in their prospects or what the problem is. We know for a fact that they weren't handling their pitchers very well by some things that came out so I'm guessing if you think they're cheap at the top level, it's probably worse the further down you go.
This where I see it, too. Big promise prospects finally come up and, we’ll, if not exactly fizzle, sure sputter a whole lot. Then we trade them and they turn into productive players under different coaching.

it can’t ALL be bad luck for us, can it?
 
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And the 4 runs came off of Cardinal catcher Yadier Molina, who the Cards put out there to pitch the 9th as a laugh.


Well yeah, but the Cardinals last five runs came off Josh VanMeter, who the Pirates put out there to pitch in the 9th as a laugh.

The Pirates problem is that they pitch guys like Bryce Wilson and Tyler Beede, and it's not for laughs.
 
I’m not sure exactly what you are remembering but Kip Wells had 2 really decent seasons as a starting pitcher during his first two years for the Pirates. And he was almost completely a starter before coming to the Pirates. Like many pitchers, his career fell off because of health issues.
I am exactly sure what I remember.
Season 3 5-7 4.77 ERA
Season 4 8-18 5.09 era.

His next 4 seasons were worse.
 
I am exactly sure what I remember.
Season 3 5-7 4.77 ERA
Season 4 8-18 5.09 era.

His next 4 seasons were worse.
Right, he had health and blood clot issues after his first two seasons with the Pirates. But like I said, I'm not really sure when he was the best "bullpen pitcher in baseball" as you suggested. He really only ever pitched out of the bullpen late in his career with other teams when he was actually worse that his time as a starter. He only pitched one further season as a Pirate as well.
 
Right, he had health and blood clot issues after his first two seasons with the Pirates. But like I said, I'm not really sure when he was the best "bullpen pitcher in baseball" as you suggested. He really only ever pitched out of the bullpen late in his career with other teams when he was actually worse that his time as a starter. He only pitched one further season as a Pirate as well.
By “bullpen pitcher” I mean he looked great in warm ups.
 
By “bullpen pitcher” I mean he looked great in warm ups.

Gotcha -- but what I'm suggesting is that there are probably much better examples of Pirates pitchers to put out there as the personification of the syndrome you are describing (especially when including "looked great in warm up as you've added). At least Kip Wells had some success. The one that comes to mind for me is Paul Wagner who we always heard could take Doug Drabek's role. Kris Benson and Paul Maholm are probably on the list ahead of Wells also.
 
Gotcha -- but what I'm suggesting is that there are probably much better examples of Pirates pitchers to put out there as the personification of the syndrome you are describing (especially when including "looked great in warm up as you've added). At least Kip Wells had some success. The one that comes to mind for me is Paul Wagner who we always heard could take Doug Drabek's role. Kris Benson and Paul Maholm are probably on the list ahead of Wells also.
Maybe so. But Kip ruined more games I personally attended than any other pitcher. He gave up mucho runs early.
 
The biggest disappointing Pirates pitcher, in the prime of my fandom anyway, was Jose DeLeon. The guy seemed like he could be phenomenal when he first came up, but he was worn down more than anyone during the crap teams they had in the heart of the 1980s. I believe he came so close to losing 20 games in one of his final seasons that they put him on the shelf for the final month so he could avoid the ignominy.
 
I'm more familiar with the Dawn Wells syndrome whereby Maryann is much much hotter than the movie star...
And then there's David Wells Syndrome, where you eat your way out of your sport.

david-wells-cover2jpg.jpg
 
The biggest disappointing Pirates pitcher, in the prime of my fandom anyway, was Jose DeLeon. The guy seemed like he could be phenomenal when he first came up, but he was worn down more than anyone during the crap teams they had in the heart of the 1980s. I believe he came so close to losing 20 games in one of his final seasons that they put him on the shelf for the final month so he could avoid the ignominy.

In his first handful of starts, it seemed like DeLeon flirted with a no hitter each time out.

Reminds me a little of Oliver Perez who was awesome for a year then tanked as his arm went dead.

In both cases, both were able to move onto another team and have at least one pretty successful season.
 
Who was the left handed head case pitcher championed by Lanny Fraterre ad naseum who couldn’t throw anything over the plate that didn’t clear or bang off an outfield wall?
Ollie Perez? He lingered as a big leaguer, as did Zach Duke. Jumbo Jimmy Anderson was a southpaw stiff as well.
 
Who was the left handed head case pitcher championed by Lanny Fraterre ad naseum who couldn’t throw anything over the plate that didn’t clear or bang off an outfield wall?

I'm trying to think who that would be. Here's some guesses ... Chris Peters, Jimmy Anderson, Sean Burnett, Zach Duke, or maybe Eric Bedard.
 
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