OT: 2021 Buccos

[HailToPitt725]

Yes, we know the owner is cheap and you won’t follow the team again until he sells. Now, let’s talk baseball.

Obviously they won’t be making the playoffs or contending for anything. An ideal season for me would be landing the first pick (and OF Elijah Green) while seeing some promise from the younger guys.

“Young” KeBryan Hayes should be fun to watch, as will a few of the pitchers (Brubaker, Cederlind). One guy I’m looking forward to seeing in action is Anthony Alford. He’s still pretty young; they picked him up off waivers from Toronto last year and showed some promise until he got injured. He may be a dark-horse for “breakout candidate.” Oneil Cruz may see some big league playing time as well, so that’s something to watch out for.

What say you?

 

[GreatBear71]

Those of us retired cannot get interested in this. The future is NOW. Cannot get up for the 20th rebuild over the past 25 years or so. MLB should push Nutting out of there. Maybe we will root for the Las Vegas Pirates!!!!!!!!

 

[Black Panther]

Those of us retired cannot get interested in this. The future is NOW. Cannot get up for the 20th rebuild over the past 25 years or so. MLB should push Nutting out of there. Maybe we will root for the Las Vegas Pirates!!!!!!!!

Who says he would spend money there either?

 

[Las Panteras]

51-111

 

[HopeandChangeforAntoons]

I don’t think I even watched nine total innings last summer, so I can’t provide much insight. But it seems to me that the plan should be to give the current roster every opportunity to showcase themselves for the rest of the league, hope some rebound / improve, and then trade away any value to continue to restock the system. Even if that plan is “different this time”, I doubt more that a few, if any of the current roster would still be here to see the fruits of that process.

 

[HailToPitt725]

I don’t think I even watched nine total innings last summer, so I can’t provide much insight. But it seems to me that the plan should be to give the current roster every opportunity to showcase themselves for the rest of the league, hope some rebound / improve, and then trade away any value to continue to restock the system. Even if that plan is “different this time”, I doubt more that a few, if any of the current roster would still be here to see the fruits of that process.

Agreed. I am more willing to wait this plan since they aren’t half-tailing it and have committed to the rebuild (and the ensuing crash and burn). That at least gives them a chance compared to the alternative, which had been the case in the final Huntington/Hurdle years.

 

[Cap pitt]

The pittsburgh Pirates are the farm team to bigger markets, if and when the have a up and coming big time player in their farm system they bring him up to the majors and develope him, and when he is ready, some other big market comes and lures him away, happens all the time, it's all about the money and the Pirates can't or won't hang with most of the other teams
,

 

[lilspainishflea]

Yes, we know the owner is cheap and you won’t follow the team again until he sells.

Just @ me next time lol

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

It's a pointless thread because the responses are always the same.

 

[Dointhatrag]

This is the first complete tear down since the mid 80's. since then it has always been a half assed attempt to stay competitive enough to garner a little interest with a .500 record eing the goal every year. This needs to be done with the revenue resources available and the game we have to play to compete. This team wont sniff the playoffs for a minimum of 4-5 years.

 

[BillyWestFan]

Actually I'm hoping for more Bucco b.s. like the "Zoltan" hand gesture from years ago to distract us from the sub par product on the field. Wonder what they can come up with?

 

[HailToPitt725]

Actually I'm hoping for more Bucco b.s. like the "Zoltan" hand gesture from years ago to distract us from the sub par product on the field. Wonder what they can come up with?

Well, now that Vanessa Hudgens is hanging around the team, maybe they’ll pause the game to do some choreographed Disney dances lol.

 

[Phillypanther2]

It's a pointless thread because the responses are always the same.

Why shouldn’t they be?

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

This is the first complete tear down since the mid 80's. since then it has always been a half assed attempt to stay competitive enough to garner a little interest with a .500 record eing the goal every year. This needs to be done with the revenue resources available and the game we have to play to compete. This team wont sniff the playoffs for a minimum of 4-5 years.

Exactly. Exactly. This group, the "not so best management team in sports" cannot change what has happened in the past. Going out and signing some middling veterans right now, not trading guys for prospects would just be more of the same that has happened with the previous regimes.

To do this thing right, is to rip it down to the studs. To not make trades for 24-25 year old "MLB" ready prospects who's ceiling is low. It is to take the risk for the highest ceiling prospects you can get. The return Huntingdon got for Cole is embarrassing compared with what he gave up for Archer.

 

[pittdan77]

This is the first complete tear down since the mid 80's. since then it has always been a half assed attempt to stay competitive enough to garner a little interest with a .500 record eing the goal every year. This needs to be done with the revenue resources available and the game we have to play to compete. This team wont sniff the playoffs for a minimum of 4-5 years.

The only reason the playoffs are a possibility is because they keep adding to the number of post-season participants. I mean, the team across town could make the playoffs and nobody is excited about that because there's a good reason.

Ownership is only concerned with the profit margin. You'll never get a payroll high enough to contend for a championship. There was never a need to let things dwindle down to where they "needed" to tear it all down. They had the pitching to build around but you sure can't pay for that, right? This town needs to quit buying into the lies.

 

[CaptainMurphy]

They need to hope that one (or multiple) of Reynolds, Polanco, either Frazier, Moran, Kuhl, or Brault show enough to fetch a decent return. I think Reynolds holds the most promise. They could probably deal from their middle infield depth and even Stallings for the right offer. My untouchables at this point would be Hayes and maybe Keller.

 

[HopeandChangeforAntoons]

They need to hope that one (or multiple) of Reynolds, Polanco, either Frazier, Moran, Kuhl, or Brault show enough to fetch a decent return. I think Reynolds holds the most promise. They could probably deal from their middle infield depth and even Stallings for the right offer. My untouchables at this point would be Hayes and maybe Keller.

I don’t even know about Keller being untouchable. I kind of feel bad for Hayes. Not like a “woe is me” Pirate fan thing. Just in general, even if this rebuild process is the best path and even if it works, he is looking at being the best part of some awful teams over the next couple of seasons with not much support around him.

 

[HailToPitt725]

They need to hope that one (or multiple) of Reynolds, Polanco, either Frazier, Moran, Kuhl, or Brault show enough to fetch a decent return. I think Reynolds holds the most promise. They could probably deal from their middle infield depth and even Stallings for the right offer. My untouchables at this point would be Hayes and maybe Keller.

I wish they’d consider being more active in free agency for this very reason. Take a short term hit on a one-year deal and look to flip them at the trade deadline for prospects.

 

[pittmeister]

This is the first complete tear down since the mid 80's. since then it has always been a half assed attempt to stay competitive enough to garner a little interest with a .500 record eing the goal every year. This needs to be done with the revenue resources available and the game we have to play to compete. This team wont sniff the playoffs for a minimum of 4-5 years.

BINGO. They’ve done a half ass job of rebuilding since the days of Syd Thryft. When you rebuild, you have to go all the way...

 

[CaptainMurphy]

I wish they’d consider being more active in free agency for this very reason. Take a short term hit on a one-year deal and look to flip them at the trade deadline for prospects.

Me too. I see a guy like Cole Hamels or Rick Porcello and think they could be very useful trade bait and potentially help bolster this sad rotation. Yes, they block guys but does it really matter if you have to move Kuhl back to the pen?

 

[jtownknowitall]

BINGO. They’ve done a half ass job of rebuilding since the days of Syd Thryft. When you rebuild, you have to go all the way...

It takes money to rebuild. The notion you can stock a 26 man roster simply by rebuilding can fool a few.

 

[CaptainMurphy]

It takes money to rebuild. The notion you can stock a 26 man roster simply by rebuilding can fool a few.

It takes money once you are closer to your end result. Spending on long term contracts now would accomplish nothing given we are so far away. I have little faith they will spend when they need to though.

 

[HailToPitt725]

It takes money to rebuild. The notion you can stock a 26 man roster simply by rebuilding can fool a few.

I have to disagree. IMO, it’s less about money and more about “cashing out” at the right time. Take the 2014-15 Royals for example. Mostly home-grown talent aside from Omar Infante but “sold the farm” at the right time to bring in rentals such as Ben Zobrist and Johnny Cueto that helped put them over the top.

I think we all understand that they will never spend big bucks to remain a long-term contender. The next best option is to maximize the window whenever it opens, and I think that’s what this group will do when the time comes.

 

[HopeandChangeforAntoons]

The Pirates biggest impediment to success over the last 30 years hasn’t been their spending, it has been their drafting and development of MLB players. Rebuild or otherwise, you can’t rely on trading your players to restock your system with other teams prospects. I think the BMTIB did improve upon their predecessors drafting. But they seemed to have little interest in competing for international players, especially in Latin America. They had nothing in the LA pipeline after Polonco. I give them credit for Kang and Gift Ngoepe. But even there, it seemed like the same MO as their MLB pitching acquisitions: content to only go after the “undervalued” diamond in the rough where there aren’t other bidders. I don’t expect them to drop signing fees for established Japanese or Cubans, but when you looked at the amateur LA signings they were never a player.

 

[FreeportPanther]

I don’t even know about Keller being untouchable. I kind of feel bad for Hayes. Not like a “woe is me” Pirate fan thing. Just in general, even if this rebuild process is the best path and even if it works, he is looking at being the best part of some awful teams over the next couple of seasons with not much support around him.

IDK, Ralph Kiner made it to the Hall of Fame similarly situated.

 

[GreatBear71]

Who says he would spend money there either?

I am assuming he would sell the Pirates, as he is in his late 50's, I believe.

 

[FreeportPanther]

I am assuming he would sell the Pirates, as he is in his late 50's, I believe.

Nutting has stated he intends to keep the Pirates in the family and bequeath ownership to his daughter/daughters, so get used to it!

 

[HopeandChangeforAntoons]

IDK, Ralph Kiner made it to the Hall of Fame similarly situated.

And he played in exactly zero post season games. I’m sure he was happy after retirement when he made the HOF, but there had to be times as a player when that sucked. No matter how good he played, he never got a chance to play for a title.

 

[FreeportPanther]

And he played in exactly zero post season games. I’m sure he was happy after retirement when he made the HOF, but there had to be times as a player when that sucked. No matter how good he played, he never got a chance to play for a title.

But he dated Elizabeth Taylor, Ava Gardner and Janet Leigh in their prime. Not a bad consolation prize!

 

[jtownknowitall]

I have to disagree. IMO, it’s less about money and more about “cashing out” at the right time. Take the 2014-15 Royals for example. Mostly home-grown talent aside from Omar Infante but “sold the farm” at the right time to bring in rentals such as Ben Zobrist and Johnny Cueto that helped put them over the top.

I think we all understand that they will never spend big bucks to remain a long-term contender. The next best option is to maximize the window whenever it opens, and I think that’s what this group will do when the time comes.

If, that is, the time ever comes.

 

[HopeandChangeforAntoons]

I wish they’d consider being more active in free agency for this very reason. Take a short term hit on a one-year deal and look to flip them at the trade deadline for prospects.

This idea (not a bad one) always makes me think of Kenny Lofton, which pisses me off. For all of the criticism of the Archer trade, that Lofton/ Ramirez trade is even worse in my mind. Archer was a horrendous over payment because they had to have the control years. But at least (I guess) it was done in hopes of improving the MLB roster.

The Lofton / Ramirez trade was a straight dump of a 30HR All Star power hitter. Then they still had to sweeten the deal with a serviceable vet. All to bring back a bunch of crap spare parts.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Me too. I see a guy like Cole Hamels or Rick Porcello and think they could be very useful trade bait and potentially help bolster this sad rotation. Yes, they block guys but does it really matter if you have to move Kuhl back to the pen?

And I am sure that is the mindset with signing Todd Frazier. Hope he starts off hot then move him at the deadline for some assets who need a veteran bat.

 

[GreatBear71]

At age 67, I am not going to just accept it and " get used to it." I am going to follow former Pirates on other teams. The future is now!! I remember that the Pirates won the NL East in 1970, 71,72,74, 75, and 79. They came in 2nd in 76, 77, and 78. They came in 3rd in 73. Sounds like a Yankees decade? I am NOT going to accept this crap.

 

[GreatBear71]

They also won the World Series in 71 and 79, their last time in the World Series. I will NOT ACCEPT IT, nor will I JUST DEAL WITH IT

 

[GreatBear71]

Nutting has stated he intends to keep the Pirates in the family and bequeath ownership to his daughter/daughters, so get used to it!

 

[GreatBear71]

If that is the case, then I will not go to any more games. A shame, as PNC Park is one of the top bball stadiums in the country.

 

[FreeportPanther]

If that is the case, then I will not go to any more games. A shame, as PNC Park is one of the top bball stadiums in the country.

The Nutting regime desecrates PNC Park and the spirit that built it with taxpayer assistance!

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

The Nutting regime desecrates PNC Park and the spirit that built it with taxpayer assistance!

Yep.

See..........I can understand economics. And to be honest, if the Pirates payroll this year is $30 million or less, so be it. It doesn't need to be more right now since there is no floor. But it was 2013-15 where we were lied to, when the Pirates had a contender, won 98 games, and the owner still wouldn't move the Pirates at least out of the bottom third of payrolls. You bank now, and spend when it is time. They bank now and well, bank later.

 

[Mikefln]

Yep.

See..........I can understand economics. And to be honest, if the Pirates payroll this year is $30 million or less, so be it. It doesn't need to be more right now since there is no floor. But it was 2013-15 where we were lied to, when the Pirates had a contender, won 98 games, and the owner still wouldn't move the Pirates at least out of the bottom third of payrolls. You bank now, and spend when it is time. They bank now and well, bank later.

100% truth right here. That 98 win season, and he added absolutely nothing. That is when it was loud and clear Nutting was never going to spend to bring championship baseball to this town. Like Recruits said, the payroll was low, adding the 2 or 3 pieces would have still had a total payroll then half the league.

 

[CaptainMurphy]

Yep.

See..........I can understand economics. And to be honest, if the Pirates payroll this year is $30 million or less, so be it. It doesn't need to be more right now since there is no floor. But it was 2013-15 where we were lied to, when the Pirates had a contender, won 98 games, and the owner still wouldn't move the Pirates at least out of the bottom third of payrolls. You bank now, and spend when it is time. They bank now and well, bank later.

Ownership definitely failed the fans after the 2015 season. The team was fresh off 3 playoff appearances and their answer is to not even make an offer to their ace (JA Happ) and replace him with Niese and Vogelsong. That off-season put a huge dent in me caring about the team. Still followed them but watched far less and attended fewer games.