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OT: 2021 Buccos

How would banning shifts, something that has been a part of baseball for as long as there has been baseball, speed the game up any?

Some of these crazy shifts can be easily defeated, and I do mean easily, if players would let go of a little of the ego and simply put the ball in play where there are no fielders covering. A left handed batter against one of these way overshifted infields could basically get themselves a free double if they would just learn how to bunt the ball hard down the third base line. But that wouldn't be "manly" enough, so they still try to pull every pitch over the fence.

The game should reward people who figure out how to exploit the other team's deficiencies, not reward the lazy.
 
How would banning shifts, something that has been a part of baseball for as long as there has been baseball, speed the game up any?

Some of these crazy shifts can be easily defeated, and I do mean easily, if players would let go of a little of the ego and simply put the ball in play where there are no fielders covering. A left handed batter against one of these way overshifted infields could basically get themselves a free double if they would just learn how to bunt the ball hard down the third base line. But that wouldn't be "manly" enough, so they still try to pull every pitch over the fence.

The game should reward people who figure out how to exploit the other team's deficiencies, not reward the lazy.
Personally, I’m in favor of keeping the shift as well as not limiting the usage of pitchers. Then again, I’m also against the universal DH. Maybe that all makes me a traditionalist, but I think removing those aspects of the game takes away the strategic side of baseball. I love the “chess matches” that make up the game.
 
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How would banning shifts, something that has been a part of baseball for as long as there has been baseball, speed the game up any?

Some of these crazy shifts can be easily defeated, and I do mean easily, if players would let go of a little of the ego and simply put the ball in play where there are no fielders covering. A left handed batter against one of these way overshifted infields could basically get themselves a free double if they would just learn how to bunt the ball hard down the third base line. But that wouldn't be "manly" enough, so they still try to pull every pitch over the fence.

The game should reward people who figure out how to exploit the other team's deficiencies, not reward the lazy.
Putting the ball in play. Why all the crazy line up rules in football Joe? What do they really accomplish? Does it really matter if the X and Y WR are both on the line of scrimmage or 1 yard off the line? It is not like they are in a wishbone?

And while I agree you can actually hit the ball the opposite way once in awhile to foil a shift, it doesn't even seem like it is being taught or strategized, they just tell the boys to swing away (pull) or take your walk or K.
 
Personally, I’m in favor of keeping the shift as well as not limiting the usage of pitchers. Then again, I’m also against the universal DH. Maybe that all makes me a traditionalist, but I think removing those aspects of the game takes away the strategic side of baseball. I love the “chess matches” that make up the game.
That's what the bleep is taking so long now though. These 'chess matches'. Let the players figure out the game and who wins. Maybe they can spend more time teaching them how to run the bases, or what base they should throw to rather that seeing someone's OPS against a lefty who throws mostly curveballs after the 7th inning, in games between 55 and 67 degrees F, with humidity between 40-60% and wind blowing out of the southwest at 8 mph. We have essentially reduced baseball to a Strat O Matic game.
 
And the hits just keep on coming!
K'Bryan Hayes on 10 day injured list with "Wrist".
The ONE guy you really want to watch. OF COURSE!!!
 
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That's what the bleep is taking so long now though. These 'chess matches'. Let the players figure out the game and who wins. Maybe they can spend more time teaching them how to run the bases, or what base they should throw to rather that seeing someone's OPS against a lefty who throws mostly curveballs after the 7th inning, in games between 55 and 67 degrees F, with humidity between 40-60% and wind blowing out of the southwest at 8 mph. We have essentially reduced baseball to a Strat O Matic game.
That’s fair. I do agree that there are some who are abusing it. For example, analytics tell you to pull a Snell or Berrios when they’re dealing but I just can’t go for that.

Here’s my opinion on it, albeit with little evidence to support it: the “strat-o-matic age” is still in its infancy. Right now, there are those who live and die by it and others from another era who want nothing to do it. Give it time and let the game sort itself out naturally. Eventually, I think teams will develop a happy balance and some of these issues will go away without any outside intervention.
 
That’s fair. I do agree that there are some who are abusing it. For example, analytics tell you to pull a Snell or Berrios when they’re dealing but I just can’t go for that.

Here’s my opinion on it, albeit with little evidence to support it: the “strat-o-matic age” is still in its infancy. Right now, there are those who live and die by it and others from another era who want nothing to do it. Give it time and let the game sort itself out naturally. Eventually, I think teams will develop a happy balance and some of these issues will go away without any outside intervention.
You say you're Old School, so I'll assume you're a bit older?
In any event, I vividly remember the era of the complete game. Win or lose, pitchers went deep into games. Bullpens were mostly starters who couldn't cut it any more.
Once in a while, you'd see a true bullpen specialist like Elroy Face, but these bullpen aces were few and far between.
 
You say you're Old School, so I'll assume you're a bit older?
In any event, I vividly remember the era of the complete game. Win or lose, pitchers went deep into games. Bullpens were mostly starters who couldn't cut it any more.
Once in a while, you'd see a true bullpen specialist like Elroy Face, but these bullpen aces were few and far between.
I’m not as old as you may think, but a lot of my preferences would likely be considered old school. Also, I think your hindsight is correct. That’s why I have an appreciation for both “old” and “new.”

Maybe I’m just too caught up in the “tradition” and “simplicity” of the game for no other reason than its own sake. I won’t disagree that the recommendations in this thread would have benefits; perhaps it will even bring in more fans.
 
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Literally the OP said not to mention this but instead of adding to the conversation you have to immediately inject negativity. Bravo
At the risk of combining negativity with $$, is there a bigger waste of $$ than Gregory Polanco??
Probably will be one of the monumentally disastrous long term signings in Pirates history.
Starting to make Derek Bell look good!
 
And the hits just keep on coming!
K'Bryan Hayes on 10 day injured list with "Wrist".
The ONE guy you really want to watch. OF COURSE!!!

Excellent. The Bucs need brakes like this if they're going to have a shot at 1st-Overall phenom Elijah Green. There are a couple of really bad teams out there this season, so they got competition out the wazoo.
 
Literally the OP said not to mention this but instead of adding to the conversation you have to immediately inject negativity. Bravo
I had a feeling my effort would be futile. Unfortunately, many people won’t get over that until they see otherwise. It’s too bad because I do think they’re putting something together and it’ll be fun to watch these prospects grow up together.
 
Hayes gets hurt and they don’t call up Frazier.Is there a reason for that? Difo is a light hitter.Frazier gives you versatility and power.
The Pirates are really not trying to win. I mean, don't you get that? It doesn't do anyone any good to finish say 75-87 and draft like 11th. That would be the worst thing that could happen. If you are going to stink, stink.
 
does anyone have a way online to contact Pittsburgh Pirate Management?
MLB heading in the same direction as the NBA. They just cant keep away from Politics.
 
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The Pirates are really not trying to win. I mean, don't you get that? It doesn't do anyone any good to finish say 75-87 and draft like 11th. That would be the worst thing that could happen. If you are going to stink, stink.
Agreed, which was why I was surprised they sent down Wil Crowe, especially after the spring he had. Obviously someone had to get bumped to make room for Crick, but this is the type of season where you want young guys to get some big league experience. Hopefully he’s back up sooner than later and we can get a feel for our return on the Bell trade.
 
Putting the ball in play. Why all the crazy line up rules in football Joe? What do they really accomplish? Does it really matter if the X and Y WR are both on the line of scrimmage or 1 yard off the line? It is not like they are in a wishbone?

And while I agree you can actually hit the ball the opposite way once in awhile to foil a shift, it doesn't even seem like it is being taught or strategized, they just tell the boys to swing away (pull) or take your walk or K.


No offense recruits, but that's just dumb. Teams shifting have nothing at all to do with putting the ball in play. In fact the way to beat the shift IS to put the ball in play, where there are no defenders, rather than just wait for your pitch and swing from your heals for a home run.

And if you don't understand why two eligible receivers on the same side of the line can't both be on the line of scrimmage, and you can't see that there is absolutely no equivalent situation in baseball, well, I don't know what to say. I thought you were smarter than that.

But in any event, tell us, just how does banning the shift make people put the ball in play? If anything, banning the shift should make it more likely that guys are going to wait for that one pitch that they can pull hard, because since there are fewer fielders there to potentially catch the ball when the do pull it the downside risk goes down.

If you want the game played faster (and I think it's obvious that most people do) then simply enforce the rule book. If a pitcher does not throw the ball in the required time he gets a ball called on him. If the batter isn't in the box and ready to hit he gets a strike called on him. The rules are already there. No umpires ever calls them. Put a clock up on the wall, like they do in the minors. Tell the umpires every time they don't call the automatic ball (for instance) that you are fining them part of their game check for intentionally not doing their job. When their wallets start taking a hit they will start calling them. When pitchers start getting balls called on them when they are dawdling around between pitches they will stop dawdling around between pitches.
 
That’s what a true burning it down rebuild looks like
Except the line-up is filled with talented young players that are fun to watch, which I see little of on this team. Polanco, Alfred,Evans,Mike Perez,Moran et.al, c'mon.
 
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Except the line-up is filled with talented young players that are fun to watch, which I see little of on this team. Polanco, Alfred,Evans,Mike Perez,Moran et.al, c'mon.


The beginning of a rebuild basically never involves having a lineup filled with talented young players. If a team had a bunch of talented young players already in place at the major league level they wouldn't need to burn it all down and rebuild.
 
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The beginning of a rebuild basically never involves having a lineup filled with talented young players. If a team had a bunch of talented young players already in place at the major league level they wouldn't need to burn it all down and rebuild.
Yeah
I thought that was a pretty obvious reason for burning it down - to improve the pipeline of young talent for the future -
Because the shelves were left empty by incompetent management for a decade

so they finally hire a gm with the guts to do the right thing -
And people seem confused they aren’t good ?
 
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I still don't understand what they (the previous regime) did to pitchers that made them dominant in the minors and mere shells once they come up. Or in the case like Cole and Morton, reach their true potential elsewhere.

What they have done to Mitch Keller, you know he is going to go somewhere else and "get it".
 
Yeah
I thought that was a pretty obvious reason for burning it down - to improve the pipeline of young talent for the future -
Because the shelves were left empty by incompetent management for a decade

so they finally hire a gm with the guts to do the right thing -
And people seem confused they aren’t good ?
No, I for one, totally get it.
It is a shame they attempted to fool everyone they were trying to compete for years.

Of course I have lingering concerns about the owner's commitment down the road. At some point, if this plan works, the $$$ will have to be there to keep the team together in order to realize their potential. It may also be necessary to add a piece or two, and quality pieces don't come cheap.

I also hate the overall structure of MLB. It is so inequitable across franchises with the haves and have nots. How they can't see the success of the NFL and the NHL in creating a level competitive playing field is beyond me. It's fine if you root for the half dozen or so rich franchises, but everyone else is realistically the Washington Generals when it comes to competing for championships.

So, that and the boring pace of the game make baseball just a passing interest. Look at the box score the next day, or check your phone periodically with the game in progress, but almost impossible to sit down and watch an entire 9 innings!
 
No offense recruits, but that's just dumb. Teams shifting have nothing at all to do with putting the ball in play. In fact the way to beat the shift IS to put the ball in play, where there are no defenders, rather than just wait for your pitch and swing from your heals for a home run.

And if you don't understand why two eligible receivers on the same side of the line can't both be on the line of scrimmage, and you can't see that there is absolutely no equivalent situation in baseball, well, I don't know what to say. I thought you were smarter than that.

But in any event, tell us, just how does banning the shift make people put the ball in play? If anything, banning the shift should make it more likely that guys are going to wait for that one pitch that they can pull hard, because since there are fewer fielders there to potentially catch the ball when the do pull it the downside risk goes down.

If you want the game played faster (and I think it's obvious that most people do) then simply enforce the rule book. If a pitcher does not throw the ball in the required time he gets a ball called on him. If the batter isn't in the box and ready to hit he gets a strike called on him. The rules are already there. No umpires ever calls them. Put a clock up on the wall, like they do in the minors. Tell the umpires every time they don't call the automatic ball (for instance) that you are fining them part of their game check for intentionally not doing their job. When their wallets start taking a hit they will start calling them. When pitchers start getting balls called on them when they are dawdling around between pitches they will stop dawdling around between pitches.
Joe, my list involved not just time savers, but game improvers. I believe you are somewhere around my age. I know batting average is "passe" but it has historical context. You had what a ~50 game season last year? Usually in a small sample like that, you will have someone batting like .380. Many over .320, let alone .300 until the 162 game grind smooths this out. There were only 23 guys who batted over .300. There were over 60 guys below .210.

I am sorry, that is not that interesting. That itself is showing the lack of balls being put into play. That's the sport. Guys are afraid to throw strikes, launch angles having totally diminished the base hit single for a fly out because of analytics. "Gap Power" is no longer even a thing. It has just become a home run contest. And while chicks dig the long ball, there is a reason why the home run derby doesn't do better in ratings. It's not baseball.
 
I still don't understand what they (the previous regime) did to pitchers that made them dominant in the minors and mere shells once they come up. Or in the case like Cole and Morton, reach their true potential elsewhere.

What they have done to Mitch Keller, you know he is going to go somewhere else and "get it".
For sure.
Their ridiculous pitch to contact theory, or whatever it was, had these guys throwing darts instead of rearing back and using their ability to blow the ball past people. They were so full of themselves and their idiotic theories that they forgot the basics of baseball.
 
No, I for one, totally get it.
It is a shame they attempted to fool everyone they were trying to compete for years.

Of course I have lingering concerns about the owner's commitment down the road. At some point, if this plan works, the $$$ will have to be there to keep the team together in order to realize their potential. It may also be necessary to add a piece or two, and quality pieces don't come cheap.

I also hate the overall structure of MLB. It is so inequitable across franchises with the haves and have nots. How they can't see the success of the NFL and the NHL in creating a level competitive playing field is beyond me. It's fine if you root for the half dozen or so rich franchises, but everyone else is realistically the Washington Generals when it comes to competing for championships.

So, that and the boring pace of the game make baseball just a passing interest. Look at the box score the next day, or check your phone periodically with the game in progress, but almost impossible to sit down and watch an entire 9 innings!
Yeah...pretty much agree. Again I have been vocal for "burning it down" and the lack trust in the previous management has killed a generation of baseball. Because while Nutting is Nutting, I thought the previous management was so incredibly and constantly disingenuous that they started to fool themselves. Then came the Chris Archer trade, a trade 3 years too late.

Anyways, yeah if a KeBryan Hayes isn't playing, or a Keller isn't pitching, or hopefully some other young guys emerge, I am really not interested. And here's a killer, if it isn't involving the Pirates, I am not watching. Maybe playoffs, but the pace and style of baseball, I just don't care much to watch this sport.
 
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Exactly. Exactly. This group, the "not so best management team in sports" cannot change what has happened in the past. Going out and signing some middling veterans right now, not trading guys for prospects would just be more of the same that has happened with the previous regimes.

To do this thing right, is to rip it down to the studs. To not make trades for 24-25 year old "MLB" ready prospects who's ceiling is low. It is to take the risk for the highest ceiling prospects you can get. The return Huntingdon got for Cole is embarrassing compared with what he gave up for Archer.
I'm paying attention -- some -- because the detestable BMTIB (Highball Frank and Nerdy Neil) are gone. Can't change nuttin' about Nutting. Shelton is refreshing because he speaks plain English. He doesn't sound like some Sioux medicine man channeling the Dalai Lama through riddles. Most of the roster is AAA quality and amounts to a bowl of stew made from leftovers. Let's not kid ourselves there. At least they are trying something other than duct tape and Gorilla glue. If this franchise ever sniffs a playoff berth again, probably not more than five players on the current roster will have a meaningful presence. In the meantime, I'm tuned in for a few inning here and there until Joe Block or Greg Brown overwhelm me with their unbridled optimism.
 
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I'm paying attention -- some -- because the detestable BMTIB (Highball Frank and Nerdy Neil) are gone. Can't change nuttin' about Nutting. Shelton is refreshing because he speaks plain English. He doesn't sound like some Sioux medicine man channeling the Dalai Lama through riddles. Most of the roster is AAA quality and amounts to a bowl of stew made from leftovers. Let's not kid ourselves there. At least they are trying something other than duct tape and Gorilla glue. If this franchise ever sniffs a playoff berth again, probably not more than five players on the current roster will have a meaningful presence. In the meantime, I'm tuned in for a few inning here and there until Joe Block or Greg Brown overwhelm me with their unbridled optimism.
LOL....the Hurdle references are spot on.

Shelton does speak plainly, not totally sold on his managing ability. I think he is a place holder. The base running gaffes, fielding decisions, etc...still are bad and you don't need all stars to have good baseball fundamentals. That is why I still see the Pirates as a 100 loss team, they not just don't have talent at most positions, but they are horrible with the basics.
 
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LOL....the Hurdle references are spot on.

Shelton does speak plainly, not totally sold on his managing ability. I think he is a place holder. The base running gaffes, fielding decisions, etc...still are bad and you don't need all stars to have good baseball fundamentals. That is why I still see the Pirates as a 100 loss team, they not just don't have talent at most positions, but they are horrible with the basics.
The perfect season for the Pirates would be those 100 + losses and another top 3 draft pick.
Colin Moran would hit 30 home runs by the trade deadline.
Polanco would look more like Dave Parker and less like Derek Bell.
Frazier would be hitting around .350
Anderson would have 10 wins
And a couple of their older relievers would have ERA's below 2!

Imagine the haul a smart GM would get for that from the contenders?
Add that to what is already in the bank and pretty soon you'd see it on the field here in the Burgh!
 
The perfect season for the Pirates would be those 100 + losses and another top 3 draft pick.
Colin Moran would hit 30 home runs by the trade deadline.
Polanco would look more like Dave Parker and less like Derek Bell.
Frazier would be hitting around .350
Anderson would have 10 wins
And a couple of their older relievers would have ERA's below 2!

Imagine the haul a smart GM would get for that from the contenders?
Add that to what is already in the bank and pretty soon you'd see it on the field here in the Burgh!
I think Rich Rodriguez could fetch some nice prospects ala Mark Melancon did.
 
For sure.
Their ridiculous pitch to contact theory, or whatever it was, had these guys throwing darts instead of rearing back and using their ability to blow the ball past people. They were so full of themselves and their idiotic theories that they forgot the basics of baseball.
Just like common core math.
 
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Joe, my list involved not just time savers, but game improvers. I believe you are somewhere around my age. I know batting average is "passe" but it has historical context. You had what a ~50 game season last year? Usually in a small sample like that, you will have someone batting like .380. Many over .320, let alone .300 until the 162 game grind smooths this out. There were only 23 guys who batted over .300. There were over 60 guys below .210.

I am sorry, that is not that interesting. That itself is showing the lack of balls being put into play. That's the sport. Guys are afraid to throw strikes, launch angles having totally diminished the base hit single for a fly out because of analytics. "Gap Power" is no longer even a thing. It has just become a home run contest. And while chicks dig the long ball, there is a reason why the home run derby doesn't do better in ratings. It's not baseball.


Well first of all, I agree that the way the game is and has been trending is not the most interesting form of baseball.

But let's look at your list.
1) Limit pitching changes. Go into a game and in 9 innings limit it to 4 pitchers. You can add as extra innings. This eliminates the constant lefty/righty switches. That used to happen maybe once a game, now it seems like it happens every inning between 6-8. Amazing how a "closer" can pitch to either side, but the relievers leading up to it can't.

First of all, that will never happen. Because the union will never go for a plan that forces guys to continue pitching on days that they clearly don't have it. When pitcher number four is in the game in the 8th inning and you are already down 12-2 and they are getting absolutely hammered, I mean I guess you could argue that that might be interesting for the winning team's fans, but only for a little while. When that guy is walking batter after batter and giving up base hits left and right and 12-2 become 18-2 becomes 22-2 pretty much no one is going to be interested anymore. Except maybe the team doctor, who will be busy praying that you don't ruin that pitchers arm.

Oops, forgot my "second of all". With the rule that every pitcher has to pitch to at least three batters or to the end of the inning they already have eliminate some of the relentless pitching changes that are boring for everyone.


2) You have been warming up in the bullpen, you don't need 8 warmup pitches from the mound. 3 and go.

I agree with that, but that also is something that is only tinkering around the edges and doesn't actually improve game play.



3) Eliminate shifts. How can you do that? Easy. NBA has rules against zone defenses. The NFL has all kinds of quirky rules about covering up a TE, or if the WR is not on the line, I mean if the WR is standing 1 yard off the line, what real difference does it make? So why can't you limit two infielders on either side of the infield?

Already covered. It not only doesn't speed the game up but it does nothing at all to make the game more interesting. More strategy is generally better.

4) Fire anyone in the front office with a math degree. LOL....just kidding. Maybe.

No comment.


5) Stop the ridiculous replays to see if a runner when stealing a base or any baserunning play has a pinky who momentarily leaves the base when sliding. It should be did the ball beat the runner and was a tag applied correctly? That's it. There was never any intention to parse frame by frame during the slide that a the hand may leave the bag for an instant while the tag is applied.

I agree with that 100%. In all sports, it's as if people propose replay to do one thing (correct egregious errors) and then when it gets put in the leagues want to use it for something completely different (nit pick every call). Go back to the way it was supposed to be, just fixing the big screw ups, and leave it at that. And while you are at it, get rid of the moronic manager's challenge. It's completely unnecessary, and it only slows the games down while we all wait for the manager to get word from the guy watching the replays to decide if the manager should challenge or not.


6) Electronic strike zone. No wonder these guys take so many pitches, they have little idea what the strike zone is at that moment.

I give it another two years and this one will be here. And the game will be better for it. But I don't know that it will, on it's own, make the game more interesting or move along any faster.


If you want to "force" the game into a more interesting place step one is to "de-juice" the ball. Make it harder to hit home runs and the strategy of always playing for home runs won't work nearly as much. When it stops working as much people will stop doing it. Less people trying to hit home runs means more people trying to put the ball in play. More balls in play means more action. More action means more interesting games.

I'm not holding my breath.
 
Before the season, I was thinking they need to suck this year and obtain a top three (or whatever) pick. But now I'm thinking it might actually be better if they're able to play way over their heads and have some guys put together some solid individual seasons. I think they'd get way more value trading away sought-after major league pieces than they would picking first or second vs picking, say, eleventh or twelfth.

That's unless there is a consensus stud at the top of the 2022 draft, I guess. But it might even apply then.
 
Before the season, I was thinking they need to suck this year and obtain a top three (or whatever) pick. But now I'm thinking it might actually be better if they're able to play way over their heads and have some guys put together some solid individual seasons. I think they'd get way more value trading away sought-after major league pieces than they would picking first or second vs picking, say, eleventh or twelfth.

That's unless there is a consensus stud at the top of the 2022 draft, I guess. But it might even apply then.
Hoping for both, actually! The Bucs are so dysfunctional they could pull it off!
 
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Before the season, I was thinking they need to suck this year and obtain a top three (or whatever) pick. But now I'm thinking it might actually be better if they're able to play way over their heads and have some guys put together some solid individual seasons. I think they'd get way more value trading away sought-after major league pieces than they would picking first or second vs picking, say, eleventh or twelfth.

That's unless there is a consensus stud at the top of the 2022 draft, I guess. But it might even apply then.
There is a consensus stud at the top of the 2022 draft.
 
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