OT: "At the Heart of Gold" MSU, Nasser HBO documentary....

[pitt-girl]

Anyone else see this documentary on HBO yet? It's about Larry Nasser, the physician for Olympic gymnasts and a MSU professor who was convicted on decades long pedophile child abuse. I thought I knew everything about it, but watching this, it is shocking how MSU basically covered this up for many years.

Also shocking is that the legal system did not follow up with abuse complaints until someone came forward who was NOT an athlete, but a family friend. (Heart breaking story.)

An interesting quote late in the documentary from an abuse expert who said (paraphrasing) that although what people like Nasser and Sandusky did was undeniably horrific, what's almost worse are those who covered it up.

I put MSU in the same category as PSU now. Dead to me.

 

[McKee Place]

Is it really shocking, after learning about Penn State? From the cover up to the lack of any discipline?

It shows the hypocrisy in society foremost. Nobody truly cares. Because enough pressure would force officials to take effective disciplinary action.

And they suffer no lack of student applicants or recruits for their teams or appearances on national networks. Nike didn't drop either.

MSU basketball nearly won the NC. PSU football challenged for the playoff. Both have prospered better than ever, rather than the opposite.

Throw in UNC winning in basketball, and the message seems to be that schools that defy authorities and cover up heinous activities did the smart thing.

Of course, now that we've trashed "them", is also only fair to look in the mirror and realize Pitt highest paid employee almost certainly knew about these things at MSU. Participant? No. Directly involved? No. Knowledge? Surely. Kept quiet? Obviously.

You're engaged in a place as deeply as he was, you definitely know. You hear about it.

All of us at all our jobs may not have our hands in every aspect, but hear about things that are happening.

So many years, so many victims, so many employees that came and went over the years. It was really not that big a secret, just like it wasn't at Penn State. At Penn State, even the custodians knew. As did the adoring media, including and especially, Pgh media.

But even when the story does finally emerge, as we see, nothing really is done about it.

It's just that nobody truly cares, as I said above.

 

[Pantherrevival]

Anyone else see this documentary on HBO yet? It's about Larry Nasser, the physician for Olympic gymnasts and a MSU professor who was convicted on decades long pedophile child abuse. I thought I knew everything about it, but watching this, it is shocking how MSU basically covered this up for many years.

Also shocking is that the legal system did not follow up with abuse complaints until someone came forward who was NOT an athlete, but a family friend. (Heart breaking story.)

An interesting quote late in the documentary from an abuse expert who said (paraphrasing) that although what people like Nasser and Sandusky did was undeniably horrific, what's almost worse are those who covered it up.

I put MSU in the same category as PSU now. Dead to me.

While I'll always hate PSU more, those two aren't anywhere close to thes ame category. You have to put football hate aside for the sake of childrens safety.

• MSU had hundreds of credible victims over many years. These victims were students at the university. They made many direct reports to the university over the years, these reports were ignored and covered up for years.
  
• PSU had one report of horseplay witha non-student and a previous employee, and that report was sent outside the university to that charity that employed Sandusky, and was responsible for the kid. That report was ignored, and the charity and its employees have escaped unscathed. The notion of a coverup at PSU was laughed out of court.

The fact that Narduzzi was at MSU when this was going on is the #1 reason I don't like him. The sooner Pitt can part ways with him the better.

 

[wbrpanther]

Anyone else see this documentary on HBO yet? It's about Larry Nasser, the physician for Olympic gymnasts and a MSU professor who was convicted on decades long pedophile child abuse. I thought I knew everything about it, but watching this, it is shocking how MSU basically covered this up for many years.

Also shocking is that the legal system did not follow up with abuse complaints until someone came forward who was NOT an athlete, but a family friend. (Heart breaking story.)

An interesting quote late in the documentary from an abuse expert who said (paraphrasing) that although what people like Nasser and Sandusky did was undeniably horrific, what's almost worse are those who covered it up.

I put MSU in the same category as PSU now. Dead to me.

Thanks for the heads up. It is actually re-airing as I type [9 AM]. Set the VCR and off to church.

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

Yes, but Penn State’s reaction was way worse, which is the real reason why they received so much harsher treatment from the national media and really the nation at large.

One of the biggest misconceptions that many Penn State fans tend to have here is that it was always a “Penn State scandal.” That is definitely untrue. It was an evolving scandal.

It was initially a Jerry Sandusky scandal, just like the Michigan State thing was a Larry Nassar scandal. Now, you could certainly argue that other people at Michigan State owned some of the blame and I would absolutely agree with that. However, those people mostly left in disgrace.

However, as time wore on, it became clear through PENN STATE’S OWN INTERNAL REVIEW that Penn State’s institutional leadership had conspired to cover the child rapes. That’s when things really went haywire for them.

However, again, it wasn’t a Penn State scandal. At that point, it was seen as a failure of leadership. People had simply prioritized football success over the lives and well being of children.

Really, the university did a great job in those weeks of identifying the problem and excising it from the institution. In other words, they did what any major company would do when it has a serious scandal – they separated the institution from their leadership.

However, it became a full blown “Penn State scandal” whenever their most insane fans and alumni acted like complete lunatics and showed almost no regard for the raped children while portraying their former football coach as the real victim.

The complete lack of empathy was stunning to most people and it horrified them. That’s when the wrath of the national media and really the nation at large came down on Penn State.

That was then further exacerbated by the fact that their fans continued to be defiant and essentially throw their proverbial middle finger up at everyone else, reasoning that everyone else was being jealous of them or trying to bring down a good man or whatever other insanity they were spewing.

Look, people are flawed and flawed people tend to do bad things. Unfortunately, there will be times when you hire the wrong person and he or she does something really terrible. And when you have children involved it becomes that much worse.

Penn State is not alone in exploiting and evaluating children. Look at all of the horrifying reports we’ve seen from the Catholic Church, other ministries, the Boy Scouts, hundreds of K – 12 school systems, etc.

Unfortunately, pedophiles are everywhere. They are in our neighborhoods, our grocery stores, our amusement parks, our swimming pooles, etc. They are always around and some of them are absolutely predatorial.

It is not even unique to Penn State that they were able to cover it up. As we’ve seen with many schools – not just Michigan State — these massive universities in these small towns have a ridiculous amount of power. These are company towns who have grown around the local massive sports industrial complex and they are not going to do anything to jeopardize their own economic livelihood.

However, what made the Penn State scandal so unique was that their fans simply refused to accept the obvious reality of their situation and responded in an amazingly defiant and tone deaf manner. That is why, in my view, they continue to languish here. They simply cannot accept reality.

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

As for hating Narduzzi because of what the gymnastics trainer did to little girls, I don’t know what sense that makes? I think that’s conflating multiple issues.

I wasn’t mad at Penn State‘s gymnastics coach because of what Jerry Sandusky did and I’m not willing to hold Michigan State’s former defensive coordinator responsible for what Larry Nasser did.

 

[McKee Place]

As for hating Narduzzi because of what the gymnastics trainer did to little girls, I don’t know what sense that makes? I think that’s conflating multiple issues.

I wasn’t mad at Penn State‘s gymnastics coach because of what Jerry Sandusky did and I’m not willing to hold Michigan State’s former defensive coordinator responsible for what Larry Nasser did.

Me neither. But the point is, in some small way, Pitt isn't without some hypocrisy of its own in these matters. We took no stand, symbolic as they may be, such as cancel series with PSU (as I continue to hold we should have done) or to part ways with Narduzzi for staying silent. The latter, for sure, I truly have no way to know with 100% certainty that it really is the case, so less certain about it.

It's why I certainly have railed on PSU over the years but I always take pains to note that Pitt's hands aren't totally clean. For financial reasons, we easily forsake our own principles. I went to the Pitt PSU games, I'm right (down) there with everyone else.

I'll add to the above, i don't have HBO so likely won't ever see this documentary, but is there anything at the end when the narrator or director or HBO president or such appears wth a dark screen and calls for vigorous disciplinary action against MSU? I am willing to bet it's a "no". Some will say, "that's not the place for that". Well, if we're really going to denounce this, make it a true deterrent to future occurrences, why not that place? If not that place, where else?

Calling attention to it in a doc makes for viewership and money for HBO but there's still no consequence to MSU. Just like continued stories on the PSU scandal. Absent that, to be brutally honest, what it does is give them free publicity. In a perverse way, it holds them up to be the Big Deal they profess themselves to be. They're "in the news", and recruits take notice (hearing nothing but "blah blah blah" for the actual details why). And their zealot fans double down on the "persecution" delusion and increase their donations.

"Negative" publicity without teeth can actually be positive.

If things like this should be stopped, demonization... with consequences... is needed.

 

[PITTsburghFAN]

Yes, but Penn State’s reaction was way worse, which is the real reason why they received so much harsher treatment from the national media and really the nation at large.

One of the biggest misconceptions that many Penn State fans tend to have here is that it was always a “Penn State scandal.” That is definitely untrue. It was an evolving scandal.

It was initially a Jerry Sandusky scandal, just like the Michigan State thing was a Larry Nassar scandal. Now, you could certainly argue that other people at Michigan State owned some of the blame and I would absolutely agree with that. However, those people mostly left in disgrace.

However, as time wore on, it became clear through PENN STATE’S OWN INTERNAL REVIEW that Penn State’s institutional leadership had conspired to cover the child rapes. That’s when things really went haywire for them.

However, again, it wasn’t a Penn State scandal. At that point, it was seen as a failure of leadership. People had simply prioritized football success over the lives and well being of children.

Really, the university did a great job in those weeks of identifying the problem and excising it from the institution. In other words, they did what any major company would do when it has a serious scandal – they separated the institution from their leadership.

However, it became a full blown “Penn State scandal” whenever their most insane fans and alumni acted like complete lunatics and showed almost no regard for the raped children while portraying their former football coach as the real victim.

The complete lack of empathy was stunning to most people and it horrified them. That’s when the wrath of the national media and really the nation at large came down on Penn State.

That was then further exacerbated by the fact that their fans continued to be defiant and essentially throw their proverbial middle finger up at everyone else, reasoning that everyone else was being jealous of them or trying to bring down a good man or whatever other insanity they were spewing.

Look, people are flawed and flawed people tend to do bad things. Unfortunately, there will be times when you hire the wrong person and he or she does something really terrible. And when you have children involved it becomes that much worse.

Penn State is not alone in exploiting and evaluating children. Look at all of the horrifying reports we’ve seen from the Catholic Church, other ministries, the Boy Scouts, hundreds of K – 12 school systems, etc.

Unfortunately, pedophiles are everywhere. They are in our neighborhoods, our grocery stores, our amusement parks, our swimming pooles, etc. They are always around and some of them are absolutely predatorial.

It is not even unique to Penn State that they were able to cover it up. As we’ve seen with many schools – not just Michigan State — these massive universities in these small towns have a ridiculous amount of power. These are company towns who have grown around the local massive sports industrial complex and they are not going to do anything to jeopardize their own economic livelihood.

However, what made the Penn State scandal so unique was that their fans simply refused to accept the obvious reality of their situation and responded in an amazingly defiant and tone deaf manner. That is why, in my view, they continue to languish here. They simply cannot accept reality.

 

[PittMan 72]

While I'll always hate PSU more, those two aren't anywhere close to thes ame category. You have to put football hate aside for the sake of childrens safety.

• MSU had hundreds of credible victims over many years. These victims were students at the university. They made many direct reports to the university over the years, these reports were ignored and covered up for years.
  
• PSU had one report of horseplay witha non-student and a previous employee, and that report was sent outside the university to that charity that employed Sandusky, and was responsible for the kid. That report was ignored, and the charity and its employees have escaped unscathed. The notion of a coverup at PSU was laughed out of court.

The fact that Narduzzi was at MSU when this was going on is the #1 reason I don't like him. The sooner Pitt can part ways with him the better.

Huh?

https://www.pennlive.com/news/2016/05/court_filing_says_joe_paterno.html

 

[PITTsburghFAN]

Good points Von Yinzer.

PSU's scandal is different in so many ways, but a couple of key ones:

* Foremost, to me, is that it occurred at an institution that for decades on end held itself morally superior to just about any entity. Success with honor / We Are!! / Penn State Material. All a bunch of crap. Phony pride, phony holier-than-thou

* As the good Dr points out - the fan base's response was stunning!! Refusing to believe anything was true, rioting, raging and lashing-out like cornered rats. So many of those alums have their identity so tied-up in their belonging to that weird "We Are" cult

* Right up until the end, the administration of the 3 Stooges conspired to hide what they knew, thought and planned. Little Timmy Curley had agreed - as part of his grand jury agreement - to relate to the jury what he'd discussed with GodPa when the four university leaders decided to turn-in Sandusky. Recall that suddenly GodPa said he didn't want it reported. Then, during the trial, Curley lied and said he couldn't remember. That infuriated Laura Ditka, the assitant AG.

Lastly, the most recent legal maneuver (Spanier having his sentence voided by a technicality): Every time they revisit this case in some way, the opportunity arises that the whole truth will be exposed - that GodPa and his crew conspired to hide the truth in an effort to protect his phony, holier-than-thou reputation. All the way back to the mid-70s! Five decades of deceit, and abetting of heinous crimes.

 

[88Pitt88]

DVY mentioned that people are flawed. This is a fact that cannot be denied. It really comes down to your moral code of ethics. Unfortunately, most people, when confronted by a situation like happened at either Pedophile St. or MSU, are going to toe the company line and not want to be the guy who blows the whistle.

For sake of argument, lets say Pat Narduzzi was fully aware of the situation at MSU. What are the consequences he faces should he come forth? Who among us, would take the kids side in these cases? You have to be grounded and raised with some incredible moral fiber. I am a catholic and have been going to church since I was old enough to remember. I do my best to live the life. I would hope that if I was presented with either situation, I would do the right thing, regardless of the consequences. That said, I know it would be tough to blow the whistle, but I would hope I was able to. It is so much easier to walk the other way, but, how do you hold Narduzzi responsible for what others did?

All I know is: Doing the right thing all the time can be extremely difficult. The pressures of life, really way on people and can cloud the decision making process. It is important to remember, People Are Flawed. In these cases, I am willing to bet that the vast majority of people are willing to compromise their principles.

 

[wbrpanther]

Huh?

https://www.pennlive.com/news/2016/05/court_filing_says_joe_paterno.html

Hard to imagine such an alternate reality like that can exist. Unless of course you are alive in today’s world.

 

[McKee Place]

DVY mentioned that people are flawed. This is a fact that cannot be denied. It really comes down to your moral code of ethics. Unfortunately, most people, when confronted by a situation like happened at either Pedophile St. or MSU, are going to toe the company line and not want to be the guy who blows the whistle.

For sake of argument, lets say Pat Narduzzi was fully aware of the situation at MSU. What are the consequences he faces should he come forth? Who among us, would take the kids side in these cases? You have to be grounded and raised with some incredible moral fiber. I am a catholic and have been going to church since I was old enough to remember. I do my best to live the life. I would hope that if I was presented with either situation, I would do the right thing, regardless of the consequences. That said, I know it would be tough to blow the whistle, but I would hope I was able to. It is so much easier to walk the other way, but, how do you hold Narduzzi responsible for what others did?

All I know is: Doing the right thing all the time can be extremely difficult. The pressures of life, really way on people and can cloud the decision making process. It is important to remember, People Are Flawed. In these cases, I am willing to bet that the vast majority of people are willing to compromise their priciples.

It's almost understandable that those on the inside would cover up and deny.

But what do we attribute to those EXTERNALLY who have absolutely excused it? Including Pitt and Pitt fans?

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

What are Pitt fans covering up? I don’t understand your trying so hard to conflate the two groups.

O.J. Simpson killed his ex-wife and a waiter. He was guilty of murder. However, he ultimately got away with it. That doesn’t mean that every single person that he does business with for the rest of his life is somehow also complicit in that in those murders.

Yeah, OJ murdered Nicole and Ron Goldman, but what about the convenience store clerk who sold him the Kitcat? How does he sleep with himself at night?

It’s just a ludicrous stretch.

That is not to say that Pitt doesn’t have its own set of issues. I’m sure there are skeletons in everyone’s closet. However, nothing that happened at Penn State has anything to do with Pitt.

 

[McKee Place]

What are Pitt fans covering up? I don’t understand your trying so hard to conflate the two groups.

O.J. Simpson killed his ex-wife and a waiter. He was guilty of murder. However, he ultimately got away with it. That doesn’t mean that every single person that he does business with for the rest of his life is somehow also complicit in that in those murders.

Yeah, OJ murdered Nicole and Ron Goldman, but what about the convenience store clerk who sold him the Kitcat? How does he sleep with himself at night?

It’s just a ludicrous stretch.

That is not to say that Pitt doesn’t have its own set of issues. I’m sure there are skeletons in everyone’s closet. However, nothing that happened at Penn State has anything to do with Pitt.

At a minimum, Pitt should have cancelled the PSU football series.

And perhaps parted ways with Narduzzi. Though to be fair Im not as certain on this, his true knowledge isn't clear.

But the reprehensible nature of PSU is and was very clear.

It would have been small, but symbolic. Isn't the school all about progressivism, liberal, protecting of humanity?

It even wouldn't have been that much of a sacrifice. Playing PSU hasn't been a great thing for Pitt. Sold some tickets, ok. Mostly to their fans, who then dumped the rest on the secondary market and depressed their value. We won one of the games (barely). Got humiliated in the last two. Pretty certain to lose the last one. They aren't playing us again after that. What was the positive then?

Nardu isn't a bad coach, but an average one, and not too difficult to replace. Success is more about commitment from the school more than one guy anyway.

Instead, we're just as craven as everyone else on the outside, the NCAA, Big Ten, networks, sponsors etc, who have allowed this to occur, without imposing the least of meaningful ramifications on either school.

The original poster who boasts that MSU is dead to her ... as a Pitt and college sports customer and consumer, can she or all of us say it with a totally clear conscience? Would she boycott a final four basketball game of Pitt vs MSU in the future? Won't watch the Pitt-PSU game this fall? Wont watch ESPN or other networks showing MSU or PSU games? Won't buy Nike products?

Look deep, really deep, before condemnation.

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

I just think you’re painting with WAAAAY too broad of a brush. Why should Pitt fire its head football coach for something a Michigan State trainer did to gymnasts?

Should Pitt have canceled the Penn State series because of their deplorable behavior? I don’t think so, but I respect those who feel differently.

I think the institution itself ultimately did the right thing. They fired their school president, head of business ops and their AD. Just those moves in and of themselves would’ve been pretty powerful statements.

However, they also took the extraordinary step of firing their long time massively powerful football coach and they removed the statue glorifying him, despite the fact that a lot of very powerful people were mounting a heavy duty public relations campaign trying to pressure them into buckling.

Those are some pretty drastic measures and to just ignore them like they never happened is simply unfair to Penn State, IMHO.

Also, condemning the University of Pittsburgh, the entirety of the Big Ten, the rest of Penn State’s out of conference opponents, the student-athletes who choose to attend school there as well as their families, the student-athletes and their families who agree to compete against Penn State; as well as anyone who advertises at a Penn State football game, or anyone who attends a Penn State football game (home or road), as well as the television people who cover their events and the people who work for that station despite them covering Penn State games, and the news people who cover Penn State, it’s just all a bridge (or 12) too far for me.

I’m just trying to make the point that you’re headed down to terribly slippery slope.

What happened at Penn State is ENTIRELY the responsibility and the fault of Penn State and it’s mostly former employees. I don’t agree that any school or student-athlete or coach or whomever who agrees to compete against them is somehow complicit in the raping of myriad teenage boys. I just think that’s a poorly conceived approach.

 

[McKee Place]

I just think you’re painting with WAAAAY too broad of a brush. Why should Pitt fire its head football coach for something a Michigan State trainer did to gymnasts?

Should Pitt have canceled the Penn State series because of their deplorable behavior? I don’t think so, but I respect those who feel differently.

I think the institution itself ultimately did the right thing. They fired their school president, head of business ops and their AD. Just those moves in a lot of them selves would’ve been pretty powerful statements. However, they also took the extraordinary step of firing their long time massively powerful football coach.

Those are some pretty drastic measures and to just ignore them like they never happened is simply unfair to Penn State, IMHO.

Also, condemning the University of Pittsburgh, the entirety of the Big Ten, the rest of Penn State’s out of conference opponents, the student-athletes who choose to attend school there as well as their families, the student-athletes and their families who agree to compete against Penn State; as well as anyone who advertises at a Penn State football game, or anyone who attends a Penn State football game (home or road), as well as the television people who cover their events and the people who work for that station despite them covering Penn State games, and the news people who cover Penn State, it’s just all a bridge (or 12) too far for me.

I’m just trying to make the point that you’re headed down to terribly slippery slope.

What happened at Penn State is ENTIRELY the responsibility and the fault of Penn State and it’s mostly former employees. I don’t agree that any school or student-athlete or coach or whomever who agrees to compete against them is somehow complicit in the raping of myriad teenage boys. I just think that’s a poorly conceived approach.

It is on them. But if truly interested in accountability and more importantly, deterrence for the future, then real, meaningful, painful ramifications needed to be imposed on both of them. Nothing was. They've actually prospered from it, in terms of athletic results. Those ramifications weren't going to come from within, they needed to come from the outside stakeholders involved. PSU and MSU are the perpetrators for sure, but the aftermath has been a very widespread failure.

I included myself in the ranks of the hypocrites. I would fail all of those ethical tests I presented to Pitt Girls original proclamation. I went to those PSU games. I'd watch a Pitt MSU hoops game. I suspect she would too, though. And that's the point. The documentaries are worthless without teeth. Where is the deterrence for the future?

 

[88Pitt88]

It's almost understandable that those on the inside would cover up and deny.

But what do we attribute to those EXTERNALLY who have absolutely excused it? Including Pitt and Pitt fans?

I don't think that Pitt or Pitt fans have excused this behavior. With the Duzz, he is given the benefit of the doubt. Like DVY, I don't think Duzz should be held accountable for he himself being a coach at the university where a dirtbag committed years of abuse against young ladies. To this point, I believe Pat Narduzzi has been a good model for this University and its players. I haven't heard anyone question his character, I surely am not going to judge him.

As for the Pedophile St. side of things, maybe we could have canceled our series with them. I don't think that was necessary to prove anything tho. The cult has done a great job of making that University look pathetic in the nations eye. Many Pitt fans like myself and others have labeled that school "the pedophile state university". They have to live with that even tho the football program never really suffered as a result.

 

[McKee Place]

I don't think that Pitt or Pitt fans have excused this behavior. With the Duzz, he is given the benefit of the doubt. Like DVY, I don't think Duzz should be held accountable for he himself being a coach at the university where a dirtbag committed years of abuse against young ladies. To this point, I believe Pat Narduzzi has been a good model for this University and its players. I haven't heard anyone question his character, I surely am not going to judge him.

As for the Pedophile St. side of things, maybe we could have canceled our series with them. I don't think that was necessary to prove anything tho. The cult has done a great job of making that University look pathetic in the nations eye. Many Pitt fans like myself and others have labeled that school "the pedophile state university". They have to live with that even tho the football program never really suffered as a result.

Fair enough. It's a reasonable stance

 

[pitt-girl]

I just think you’re painting with WAAAAY too broad of a brush. Why should Pitt fire its head football coach for something a Michigan State trainer did to gymnasts?

Should Pitt have canceled the Penn State series because of their deplorable behavior? I don’t think so, but I respect those who feel differently.

I think the institution itself ultimately did the right thing. They fired their school president, head of business ops and their AD. Just those moves in and of themselves would’ve been pretty powerful statements.

However, they also took the extraordinary step of firing their long time massively powerful football coach and they removed the statue glorifying him, despite the fact that a lot of very powerful people were mounting a heavy duty public relations campaign trying to pressure them into buckling.

Those are some pretty drastic measures and to just ignore them like they never happened is simply unfair to Penn State, IMHO.

Also, condemning the University of Pittsburgh, the entirety of the Big Ten, the rest of Penn State’s out of conference opponents, the student-athletes who choose to attend school there as well as their families, the student-athletes and their families who agree to compete against Penn State; as well as anyone who advertises at a Penn State football game, or anyone who attends a Penn State football game (home or road), as well as the television people who cover their events and the people who work for that station despite them covering Penn State games, and the news people who cover Penn State, it’s just all a bridge (or 12) too far for me.

I’m just trying to make the point that you’re headed down to terribly slippery slope.

What happened at Penn State is ENTIRELY the responsibility and the fault of Penn State and it’s mostly former employees. I don’t agree that any school or student-athlete or coach or whomever who agrees to compete against them is somehow complicit in the raping of myriad teenage boys. I just think that’s a poorly conceived approach.

Dr. - you're on fire this morning. Great posts.

 

[pitt-girl]

At a minimum, Pitt should have cancelled the PSU football series.

And perhaps parted ways with Narduzzi. Though to be fair Im not as certain on this, his true knowledge isn't clear.

But the reprehensible nature of PSU is and was very clear.

It would have been small, but symbolic. Isn't the school all about progressivism, liberal, protecting of humanity?

It even wouldn't have been that much of a sacrifice. Playing PSU hasn't been a great thing for Pitt. Sold some tickets, ok. Mostly to their fans, who then dumped the rest on the secondary market and depressed their value. We won one of the games (barely). Got humiliated in the last two. Pretty certain to lose the last one. They aren't playing us again after that. What was the positive then?

Nardu isn't a bad coach, but an average one, and not too difficult to replace. Success is more about commitment from the school more than one guy anyway.

Instead, we're just as craven as everyone else on the outside, the NCAA, Big Ten, networks, sponsors etc, who have allowed this to occur, without imposing the least of meaningful ramifications on either school.

The original poster who boasts that MSU is dead to her ... as a Pitt and college sports customer and consumer, can she or all of us say it with a totally clear conscience? Would she boycott a final four basketball game of Pitt vs MSU in the future? Won't watch the Pitt-PSU game this fall? Wont watch ESPN or other networks showing MSU or PSU games? Won't buy Nike products?

Look deep, really deep, before condemnation.

I can condemn MSU without punishing Pitt.

Extrapolating your premise, if I was a CEO of a company, should I fire all MSU employees that were hired under my watch? Should I get up and leave a restaurant if the owner or server or bartender is an MSU grad? What about a neighbor? I mean if they graduated form MSU, should I cut off any relationship with them?

Slippery, slippery slope.

 

[pitt-girl]

Me neither. But the point is, in some small way, Pitt isn't without some hypocrisy of its own in these matters. We took no stand, symbolic as they may be, such as cancel series with PSU (as I continue to hold we should have done) or to part ways with Narduzzi for staying silent. The latter, for sure, I truly have no way to know with 100% certainty that it really is the case, so less certain about it.

It's why I certainly have railed on PSU over the years but I always take pains to note that Pitt's hands aren't totally clean. For financial reasons, we easily forsake our own principles. I went to the Pitt PSU games, I'm right (down) there with everyone else.

I'll add to the above, i don't have HBO so likely won't ever see this documentary, but is there anything at the end when the narrator or director or HBO president or such appears wth a dark screen and calls for vigorous disciplinary action against MSU? I am willing to bet it's a "no". Some will say, "that's not the place for that". Well, if we're really going to denounce this, make it a true deterrent to future occurrences, why not that place? If not that place, where else?

Calling attention to it in a doc makes for viewership and money for HBO but there's still no consequence to MSU. Just like continued stories on the PSU scandal. Absent that, to be brutally honest, what it does is give them free publicity. In a perverse way, it holds them up to be the Big Deal they profess themselves to be. They're "in the news", and recruits take notice (hearing nothing but "blah blah blah" for the actual details why). And their zealot fans double down on the "persecution" delusion and increase their donations.

"Negative" publicity without teeth can actually be positive.

If things like this should be stopped, demonization... with consequences... is needed.

"Calling attention to it in a doc makes for viewership and money for HBO but there's still no consequence to MSU."

The intent of good documentaries are to present a series of facts that allow the viewer to come up with their own conclusions.

Re: consequences, unfortunately that is life. I'm a Catholic and abhor what has been exposed about rampant pedophilia. But I still go to church. As it is for the thousands of PSU and MSU fans who continue supporting their school, regardless of their scandals. But for ME - I could never support them.

It's choices everyone makes.

 

[CrazyPaco]

I just think you’re painting with WAAAAY too broad of a brush. Why should Pitt fire its head football coach for something a Michigan State trainer did to gymnasts?

Should Pitt have canceled the Penn State series because of their deplorable behavior? I don’t think so, but I respect those who feel differently.

I think the institution itself ultimately did the right thing. They fired their school president, head of business ops and their AD. Just those moves in and of themselves would’ve been pretty powerful statements.

However, they also took the extraordinary step of firing their long time massively powerful football coach and they removed the statue glorifying him, despite the fact that a lot of very powerful people were mounting a heavy duty public relations campaign trying to pressure them into buckling.

Those are some pretty drastic measures and to just ignore them like they never happened is simply unfair to Penn State, IMHO.

Also, condemning the University of Pittsburgh, the entirety of the Big Ten, the rest of Penn State’s out of conference opponents, the student-athletes who choose to attend school there as well as their families, the student-athletes and their families who agree to compete against Penn State; as well as anyone who advertises at a Penn State football game, or anyone who attends a Penn State football game (home or road), as well as the television people who cover their events and the people who work for that station despite them covering Penn State games, and the news people who cover Penn State, it’s just all a bridge (or 12) too far for me.

I’m just trying to make the point that you’re headed down to terribly slippery slope.

What happened at Penn State is ENTIRELY the responsibility and the fault of Penn State and it’s mostly former employees. I don’t agree that any school or student-athlete or coach or whomever who agrees to compete against them is somehow complicit in the raping of myriad teenage boys. I just think that’s a poorly conceived approach.

I agree with most of what you said, except about Penn State's response being adequate. Yes, they pushed out Paterno over the objections of the cult-like hero worshipers, but only after the national media pressure greatly intensified. This was a man with health problems and reduced mental faculties who had hung on too long and who administrators had unsuccessfully attempted to push out previously. They still waited until after he reached 409 even though PSU leadership had been well aware of what was going on and his role in it. They elevated complicit long-time assistants to take his place, retaining the key recruiters the whole way through the subsequent coaching regime, and insisted on playing out the season including participating in a meaningless bowl game. This doesn't even begin to explore how the program was painted as martyrs surviving some great persecution the following season that culminated in elevating that season among the undefeated ones listed inside Beaver.

Following Curley's removal, the athletic department leadership was transferred to a long-time board member, who soon had his interim tag removed. This even prompted the state auditor general to condemn it since, if it wasn't obvious, it gives the perception of insider influence and conflicting interests. But clearly, there was no urgency to cleaning out the rot in the athletic department.

But that wasn't the worst of it. What really was galling was how they handled the replacements on the administrative side after they fired Spanier, particularly in light of not just the child rape coverups, but the complete systemic failure of Title IX compliance. Elevating Erickson to take over, who had been at PSU since the 80s and in the administration since 1995, was a reasonable interim move in a crisis situation. What wasn't reasonable was that the interim tag was removed and that he stayed on for 3 years. A non-dysfunctional or non-insular institution with a coverup scandal of this magnitude would thoroughly cleaned house and brought in new, outside leadership (both institutionally AND athletically) with established and unassailable reputations for principled leadership and conduct. Clearly, however, the immediate and lingering focus remained on mitigating damage to the football program, and like-wise, to the university by securing vulnerable financial assets, legal maneuvering, and waging multiple multi-million dollar public relations campaigns. Their board continued to keep things in-house by effectively circling the wagons around their incestuous institutional leadership. When they did end up hiring the next president, they turned to a legacy faculty and dean embroiled in an athletic misconduct scandal at his current institution. It's not only tone deaf, it is absolutely revealing about how the institutional leadership actually viewed the systemic problems that allowed a decades long cover-up of child rape to take place. Yes, the highest profile positions were terminated under the intense light of the transient media scrutiny, but after that light dimmed, the pattern and urgency demonstrated in the subsequent leadership searches and decisions clearly shows where that university was and is.

 

[BFo8]

While I'll always hate PSU more, those two aren't anywhere close to thes ame category. You have to put football hate aside for the sake of childrens safety.

• MSU had hundreds of credible victims over many years. These victims were students at the university. They made many direct reports to the university over the years, these reports were ignored and covered up for years.
  
• PSU had one report of horseplay witha non-student and a previous employee, and that report was sent outside the university to that charity that employed Sandusky, and was responsible for the kid. That report was ignored, and the charity and its employees have escaped unscathed. The notion of a coverup at PSU was laughed out of court.

The fact that Narduzzi was at MSU when this was going on is the #1 reason I don't like him. The sooner Pitt can part ways with him the better.

Am I the only one who gets totally repulsed any time the word “horseplay” is used in conjunction with the Penn St incident?

 

[McKee Place]

I can condemn MSU without punishing Pitt.

Extrapolating your premise, if I was a CEO of a company, should I fire all MSU employees that were hired under my watch? Should I get up and leave a restaurant if the owner or server or bartender is an MSU grad? What about a neighbor? I mean if they graduated form MSU, should I cut off any relationship with them?

Slippery, slippery slope.

Yes, if they are really dead to you, as you say, you should do all those things.

 

[pitt-girl]

Yes, if they are really dead to you, as you say, you should do all those things.

I completely disagree, but that's ok.

 

[McKee Place]

I completely disagree, but that's ok.

It's ok. I admitted I'm a hypocrite too.

Edit...I was just kidding about doing all those things you said. But condemnation with no consequences at all has done nothing to deter either of those schools, nor to deter future schools, to force them to do the right thing. And that's the real shame. The crimes that already happened can't be taken back, and even initial new crimes in the future are probably impossible to prevent ... but maybe, if schools knew they would pay a steep price for covering up and enabling them once aware of them, at least there might not be repeat offenders in the future.

 

[McKee Place]

Am I the only one who gets totally repulsed any time the word “horseplay” is used in conjunction with the Penn St incident?

That word definitely seems to have fallen out of use, not that I recall hearing it much before, but definitely not since the PSU scandal came to light. I think it's a word that now has too much queasy baggage associated with it. A number of heretofore innocent words have experienced that fate, usually due to political polarization or usurping for negative, insulting, hateful connotation. This time, for a particularly grotesque reason.

 

[pitt-girl]

It's ok. I admitted I'm a hypocrite too.

Edit...I was just kidding about doing all those things you said. But condemnation with no consequences at all has done nothing to deter either of those schools, nor to deter future schools, to force them to do the right thing. And that's the real shame. The crimes that already happened can't be taken back, and even initial new crimes in the future are probably impossible to prevent ... but maybe, if schools knew they would pay a steep price for covering up and enabling them once aware of them, at least there might not be repeat offenders in the future.

I might be a tad too optimistic, but I DO believe things have and are changing in terms of compliance in many areas - including protecting children. As much as I think the #METOO movement is dangerous when it comes to nuance, it has empowered those who feel at a disadvantage to speak up and be taken more seriously.

 

[McKee Place]

I might be a tad too optimistic, but I DO believe things have and are changing in terms of compliance in many areas - including protecting children. As much as I think the #METOO movement is dangerous when it comes to nuance, it has empowered those who feel at a disadvantage to speak up and be taken more seriously.

I hope your optimism is not unfounded. But from my vantage point, these situations have done little more than reinforce the instinct of these schools to gather the wagons, stay silent, and if exposed, deny, stonewall, lawyer up, and demonize the victims. And why wouldn't it? They were rewarded for reacting that way.

 

[pitt-girl]

I hope your optimism is not unfounded. But from my vantage point, these situations have done little more than reinforce the instinct of these schools to gather the wagons, stay silent, and if exposed, deny, stonewall, lawyer up, and demonize the victims. And why wouldn't it? They were rewarded for reacting that way.

Well I wouldn't say really bad press and a $500MM payout for gymnasts is any type of a "reward".

 

[DiehardPanther]

As for hating Narduzzi because of what the gymnastics trainer did to little girls, I don’t know what sense that makes? I think that’s conflating multiple issues.

I wasn’t mad at Penn State‘s gymnastics coach because of what Jerry Sandusky did and I’m not willing to hold Michigan State’s former defensive coordinator responsible for what Larry Nasser did.

That poster is a PS fan.

 

[Pantherrevival]

Huh?

https://www.pennlive.com/news/2016/05/court_filing_says_joe_paterno.html

Link is behind a paywall, so I can’t read it. Before it locked, I did see it had to do with the 70s accusers. I have no time for anyone who believes such nonsense.

 

[President Stache]

I can condemn MSU without punishing Pitt.

Extrapolating your premise, if I was a CEO of a company, should I fire all MSU employees that were hired under my watch? Should I get up and leave a restaurant if the owner or server or bartender is an MSU grad? What about a neighbor? I mean if they graduated form MSU, should I cut off any relationship with them?

Slippery, slippery slope.

It’s not a slippery slope, it’s pure idiocy.


Now do you not hire an assistant gymnastics coach of MSU? Yeah, I would think super thorough vetting would be required at least and most likely still say no

 

[McKee Place]

That poster is a PS fan.

If you mean me, you're wrong...

Penn State football is satanic and should no longer exist. That had to be enforced externally, however. They weren't going to discipline themselves. Everyone involved went Neville Chamberlain on them though. And now every school with similar situations follow the same tactic... cover up, enable, deny, obstruct, lawyer up, attack and threaten.

 

[HailToPitt1985]

Link is behind a paywall, so I can’t read it. Before it locked, I did see it had to do with the 70s accusers. I have no time for anyone who believes such nonsense.

What Sandusky and Paterno did with child rape goes all the way back to the 70's. It was happening then and it was covered up. Fortunately, Paterno is dead and burning in hell and Sandusky will hopefully be there soon with him. PSU football shouldn't even exist right now. The football program should have been demolished for at least a period of 10 years, probably more. That's why any win they get now is meaningless and is not a win at all. Even if they beat Pitt, we won because we aren't them.