OT: Cruz vs Suwinsky (Pirates)

Fk_Pitt

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Baseball stats geeks, help me out. What’s the deal with this Jack Suwinsky dude? Why is there absolutely no hype that I see regarding this rookie player for the Pirates?

both he and Cruz are 24. Both players have the same amount of AB’s. Suwinsky hit another HR last night and has 2 more than Cruz.

Cruz has more RBI’s and is batting .230 while Suwinsky is batting .200.

what do the stats tell you guys? Why is one the most hyped player since Gregory Polanco, while the other might as well be Doug Frobel? Is it just because one is 6’5” and hits the ball hard? Does Suwinsky not hit the ball hard? Is the exit velocity what’s important to scouts and media here?


just wondering if this Suwinsky guy is considered someone who could be an important part of a rebuild and if winter ball and coaching can make him a better player?

is Cruz marketable and Suwinsky isn’t? Help me out here.
 

Duneaux Harm

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Baseball stats geeks, help me out. What’s the deal with this Jack Suwinsky dude? Why is there absolutely no hype that I see regarding this rookie player for the Pirates?

both he and Cruz are 24. Both players have the same amount of AB’s. Suwinsky hit another HR last night and has 2 more than Cruz.

Cruz has more RBI’s and is batting .230 while Suwinsky is batting .200.

what do the stats tell you guys? Why is one the most hyped player since Gregory Polanco, while the other might as well be Doug Frobel? Is it just because one is 6’5” and hits the ball hard? Does Suwinsky not hit the ball hard? Is the exit velocity what’s important to scouts and media here?


just wondering if this Suwinsky guy is considered someone who could be an important part of a rebuild and if winter ball and coaching can make him a better player?

is Cruz marketable and Suwinsky isn’t? Help me out here.
Go to Stathead.com and you can compare players to each other. My first amazement was that were actual stats created by people that Are nearly impossible to comprehend. Without in depth review of what each stat meant it appears to me that Cruz has deeper statistics that make him a better looking player than Suwinski. But I did not plug in Aaron Judge or Ohtani to see how the two Buccos compare to obvious superstars. My biggest reveal was baseball has really gotten away from me and no wonder people no longer watch if these are the stats that matter.
 
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CaptainMurphy

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Suwinski will be a big part of this team going forward, at least if they hope to be successful.

Cruz has had solid stats across the minors, positional flexibility, and is a big guy. His bat plays huge as a SS (remains to be seen if he sticks there long term). He protects to have natural power. He's also two years younger.

I think Cruz has a chance to be the Pirates' best player and an all star. Suwinski probably projects to be a starting OF but doesn't have the upside unless he can start hitting for average along with his power.

Both have a ways to go, obviously.
 
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I’ve watched very little of the Pirates this year, so take my opinion with a grain of salt. But I can see a few reasons why Cruz is hyped and Suwinski isn’t. First is their “tools”. Both have similar HR numbers but Cruz runs like a deer and has a big time arm. I would guess based upon his hard hit balls that are outs now they project him as a better potential hitter if he can correct his approach? Finally, he has more value because he can play SS and has tools to do it well. Even if they have the same production it is going to be easier to find an outfielder to do that that a SS. To put it another way, Cruz could end up in RF, but Suwinski isn’t going to play SS.
 
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Zeldas Open Roof

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both need to raise their avg by at least 40 points to get any attention outside of eternal optimist pirate fans..

good news, both are young and can already hit 30+ hrs over a full season.. Suwinski was on a tear in triple A, was batting over .350 but in a short range..

neither will ever bat for avg, i doubt either ever sniff .275 or higher but if they can hit 30 home runs and be near, 250 avg, i'll take that any day..
 

Fk_Pitt

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Cruz has had solid stats across the minors, positional flexibility, and is a big guy. His bat plays huge as a SS (remains to be seen if he sticks there long term). He protects to have natural power. He's also two years younger.
According to ESPN app, Cruz is 2 months younger, not 2 years younger. Both are 24 from what I can see.
 

4Mark_Marty

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Baseball stats geeks, help me out. What’s the deal with this Jack Suwinsky dude? Why is there absolutely no hype that I see regarding this rookie player for the Pirates?

both he and Cruz are 24. Both players have the same amount of AB’s. Suwinsky hit another HR last night and has 2 more than Cruz.

Cruz has more RBI’s and is batting .230 while Suwinsky is batting .200.

what do the stats tell you guys? Why is one the most hyped player since Gregory Polanco, while the other might as well be Doug Frobel? Is it just because one is 6’5” and hits the ball hard? Does Suwinsky not hit the ball hard? Is the exit velocity what’s important to scouts and media here?


just wondering if this Suwinsky guy is considered someone who could be an important part of a rebuild and if winter ball and coaching can make him a better player?

is Cruz marketable and Suwinsky isn’t? Help me out here.
Doug Frobel!! That's gold!!
 
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I just think it's a little more effortless with Cruz. If they're still even, stats-wise, in a few years then I assume they'll get similar praise. But right now they're both in the potential phase, and as someone mentioned... Cruz just has better tools. You'd probably expect him to pull ahead because of that.

Kind of funny that Pedro Alvarez couldn't find a home a few years ago. His stats were exactly what the game is now. Hell, he'd look like Tony Gwynn with that .249 average in his last full season.
 

Zeldas Open Roof

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Cruz is starting to take more walks, that's a good thing. with his frame and his swing, he'll never be a .300 hitter ever. But if somehow he can miraculously get that av up to .250-.260 in a few years and keep the power, i'll sign up for that in a heartbeat..

baby steps though, lets get to .240 in the next year or two and then worry about .260. that's probably his ceiling though as far as batting for average.. Hell, Reynolds is batting .260 now and he's three times the hitter as both of these guys..

i think days of good hitters batting .300 are gone. different times in baseball.. there are 12 MLB players batting over .300 right now. that's absurd..
 
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Cruz is starting to take more walks, that's a good thing. with his frame and his swing, he'll never be a .300 hitter ever. But if somehow he can miraculously get that av up to .250-.260 in a few years and keep the power, i'll sign up for that in a heartbeat..

baby steps though, lets get to .240 in the next year or two and then worry about .260. that's probably his ceiling though as far as batting for average.. Hell, Reynolds is batting .260 now and he's three times the hitter as both of these guys..

i think days of good hitters batting .300 are gone. different times in baseball.. there are 12 MLB players batting over .300 right now. that's absurd..

15 years ago, 40 guys hit at least .300.

I've always been against getting rid of the shifts, but maybe it will make baseball watchable again. Regardless of whether or not guys CAN do better to hit around them, they simply won't, so it doesn't mean much.

Baseball and basketball have both undergone transformations recently that make me not even want to turn the TV on until football season. It's home run/strikeout derby and a three-point shooting contest every game. Feels like the all-star break all season long.
 

jtownknowitall

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15 years ago, 40 guys hit at least .300.

I've always been against getting rid of the shifts, but maybe it will make baseball watchable again. Regardless of whether or not guys CAN do better to hit around them, they simply won't, so it doesn't mean much.

Baseball and basketball have both undergone transformations recently that make me not even want to turn the TV on until football season.
Football might be the dullest sport to watch anymore.
 
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Football might be the dullest sport to watch anymore.

I don't know about the dullest. But it seems like there are more bad teams this season than I can ever remember. In both college and the pros, almost anybody can beat anybody (within reason), and the play has been sloppy. Combine that with the insane amount of injuries that keep piling up, and yeah... hasn't been a great year to watch it. I cringe on almost every play that someone is going to need to be carted off. I don't know if it's these cover X defenses or what (not like they're a brand new concept), but it seems like there are more safeties/corners/linebackers coming from 15 yards away and colliding with the man who has the ball like two automobiles crashing head-on.
 

Zeldas Open Roof

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The NL home run leader has gone on a tear recently to raise his average to .219.
it's amazing how low batting averages are across the league.. but this one you just brought up is hilarious. Shwarber, right?


man, it wasnt that long ago were we all pulled our hair out on Pedro's batting average. .249 is pretty much what we HOPE Cruz can get to in a year or two..
 
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Fk_Pitt

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Football might be the dullest sport to watch anymore.
I don’t know what it is, but an NFL game still seems to have a good pace to it, yet I know people who don’t like all the timeouts. But watching that Pitt game the other night, with all of those stoppages, I can see why American football hasn’t caught on around the world. And baseball might as well forget it. If it’s not ingrained in any culture now, it’s not going to be.
 
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Fk_Pitt

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it's amazing how low batting averages are across the league.. but this one you just brought up is hilarious. Shwarber, right?


man, it wasnt that long ago were we all pulled our hair out on Pedro's batting average. .249 is pretty much what we HOPE Cruz can get to in a year or two..
That’s a good point. Maybe Pedro hit the bigs a decade too early. That’s a shame.
 

Zeldas Open Roof

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I don't know about the dullest. But it seems like there are more bad teams this season than I can ever remember. In both college and the pros, almost anybody can beat anybody (within reason), and the play has been sloppy. Combine that with the insane amount of injuries that keep piling up, and yeah... hasn't been a great year to watch it. I cringe on almost every play that someone is going to need to be carted off. I don't know if it's these cover X defenses or what (not like they're a brand new concept), but it seems like there are more safeties/corners/linebackers coming from 15 yards away and colliding with the man who has the ball like two automobiles crashing head-on.
roster turnover with transfers is going to start to show with teams just looking sloppy in college. players coming and going, very few "sticking it out" for 3+ years to play as seniors. new systems, new players, new rosters, it will lead to sloppy games.
 

recruitsreadtheseboards

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That's just it. People are obsessed by batting average. The fact that Cruz has raised his average to around .230 is something. He is also reaching base more often. As I said months ago, Barry Bonds rookie season he batted .223 in an era where the average MLB hit .275-.280. He hit 116 HR's. So Cruz is batting .230 in an era where the average BA is .240. Plus Cruz nails homers to all fields, effortlessly. He runs like a deer. His arm is so good, I am surprised no one made him a pitch.

Suwinski is doing some nice things, but he is mostly a LH power hitter taking advantage of PNC's short RF.
 

recruitsreadtheseboards

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The most encouraging thing aside from Cruz is the emerging pitchers of Contreras, Ovieto and Ortiz (who got roughed up but is averaging over a K an inning and routinely hits 100). And also Mitch Keller has apparently settled into being a decent MLB pitcher.

This team absolutely needs to add an AJ Burnett type of Vet. Or Russell Martin. They need some veteran leadership.
 

Zeldas Open Roof

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That's just it. People are obsessed by batting average. The fact that Cruz has raised his average to around .230 is something. He is also reaching base more often. As I said months ago, Barry Bonds rookie season he batted .223 in an era where the average MLB hit .275-.280. He hit 116 HR's. So Cruz is batting .230 in an era where the average BA is .240. Plus Cruz nails homers to all fields, effortlessly. He runs like a deer. His arm is so good, I am surprised no one made him a pitch.

Suwinski is doing some nice things, but he is mostly a LH power hitter taking advantage of PNC's short RF.
i'd love some baseball nut to come on here and analyze his swing for us and see if higher avg's are in his future. Jack was batting .359 in Indy (AAA) but short stint for sure. looking at his season long batting averages in the minors, low. .250 - .260 range..

Cruz, im not an expert but dude is 6'7" so i'd imagine the bigger strike zone and his power will never lead to higher averages. BUT, he is taking walks, not swinging at garbage so pitchers will start having to pitch better to him, in theory at least..

of course as soon as i say this, last night they threw him 4 balls with bases loaded in a tie game in bottom of ninth..
 
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roster turnover with transfers is going to start to show with teams just looking sloppy in college. players coming and going, very few "sticking it out" for 3+ years to play as seniors. new systems, new players, new rosters, it will lead to sloppy games.

It's even in the pros. Like some many teams are just mired in this ball of mediocrity.

I don't understand why so many seem to treat the preseason differently now. Okay, you added a game and took a preseason game away. Don't you still want to get your starters some reps for at least a game and a half? But it's like we can't do that, because one tiny thing changed. We have to upend the whole system now. And I think there are also a lot more guys practicing a lot less now. Some of it is because less practice time has been mandated. But guys seem to get more exceptions than they used to. Like Ben not practicing on Wednesdays, etc.
 

CaptainMurphy

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The most encouraging thing aside from Cruz is the emerging pitchers of Contreras, Ovieto and Ortiz (who got roughed up but is averaging over a K an inning and routinely hits 100). And also Mitch Keller has apparently settled into being a decent MLB pitcher.

This team absolutely needs to add an AJ Burnett type of Vet. Or Russell Martin. They need some veteran leadership.

I agree on the rotation. 2023 needs to be the year the rotation comes together with guys like Priester waiting in the wings. It's surprising how quickly the rotation started looking like a point of strength given where the year started. I thought the hitting was going to be much further along after the Dodgers series.
 

wbrpanther

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Baseball stats geeks, help me out. What’s the deal with this Jack Suwinsky dude? Why is there absolutely no hype that I see regarding this rookie player for the Pirates?

both he and Cruz are 24. Both players have the same amount of AB’s. Suwinsky hit another HR last night and has 2 more than Cruz.

Cruz has more RBI’s and is batting .230 while Suwinsky is batting .200.

what do the stats tell you guys? Why is one the most hyped player since Gregory Polanco, while the other might as well be Doug Frobel? Is it just because one is 6’5” and hits the ball hard? Does Suwinsky not hit the ball hard? Is the exit velocity what’s important to scouts and media here?


just wondering if this Suwinsky guy is considered someone who could be an important part of a rebuild and if winter ball and coaching can make him a better player?

is Cruz marketable and Suwinsky isn’t? Help me out here.
Cruz has a much larger upside with his tangible assets. Both are good young players and both need many more at bats to reach potential.
 

upj87

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15 years ago, 40 guys hit at least .300.

I've always been against getting rid of the shifts, but maybe it will make baseball watchable again. Regardless of whether or not guys CAN do better to hit around them, they simply won't, so it doesn't mean much.

Baseball and basketball have both undergone transformations recently that make me not even want to turn the TV on until football season. It's home run/strikeout derby and a three-point shooting contest every game. Feels like the all-star break all season long.
if guys could (or would) bunt they would bat .300 while at the same time making the shifts go away...
 

Fk_Pitt

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Cruz has a much larger upside with his tangible assets. Both are good young players and both need many more at bats to reach potential.
Glad you said both are good young players. I haven’t heard anyone talking about Suwinsky at any point this year. Yet it’s nothing but get the KY jelly out for Cruz.
 

CaptainMurphy

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Glad you said both are good young players. I haven’t heard anyone talking about Suwinsky at any point this year. Yet it’s nothing but get the KY jelly out for Cruz.

Well, Suwinski was garnering the same level of praise early on. And then he had that awful stretch where he looked lost which got him sent down for a month. I think that tempered expectations somewhat, though I think most people still think he's got a future as a starter on the team.
 
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wolf0717

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Cruz is starting to take more walks, that's a good thing. with his frame and his swing, he'll never be a .300 hitter ever. But if somehow he can miraculously get that av up to .250-.260 in a few years and keep the power, i'll sign up for that in a heartbeat..

baby steps though, lets get to .240 in the next year or two and then worry about .260. that's probably his ceiling though as far as batting for average.. Hell, Reynolds is batting .260 now and he's three times the hitter as both of these guys..

i think days of good hitters batting .300 are gone. different times in baseball.. there are 12 MLB players batting over .300 right now. that's absurd..
When they change the shift rule next season, there will be a lot more .300 hitters.
 
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Phillypanther2

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15 years ago, 40 guys hit at least .300.

I've always been against getting rid of the shifts, but maybe it will make baseball watchable again. Regardless of whether or not guys CAN do better to hit around them, they simply won't, so it doesn't mean much.

Baseball and basketball have both undergone transformations recently that make me not even want to turn the TV on until football season. It's home run/strikeout derby and a three-point shooting contest every game. Feels like the all-star break all season long.
Unfortunately you’re absolutely right.
 

gary2

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Baseball stats geeks, help me out. What’s the deal with this Jack Suwinsky dude? Why is there absolutely no hype that I see regarding this rookie player for the Pirates?

both he and Cruz are 24. Both players have the same amount of AB’s. Suwinsky hit another HR last night and has 2 more than Cruz.

Cruz has more RBI’s and is batting .230 while Suwinsky is batting .200.

what do the stats tell you guys? Why is one the most hyped player since Gregory Polanco, while the other might as well be Doug Frobel? Is it just because one is 6’5” and hits the ball hard? Does Suwinsky not hit the ball hard? Is the exit velocity what’s important to scouts and media here?


just wondering if this Suwinsky guy is considered someone who could be an important part of a rebuild and if winter ball and coaching can make him a better player?

is Cruz marketable and Suwinsky isn’t? Help me out here.
Suwinski is an infintely better defender at his position than Cruz. Suwinski is a much smarter player.

Cruz is a good bit faster. Both hit homeruns, Cruz long ones are longer. Both strike out a lot. Both are getting better about taking walks.

I think Suwinski hit for better average will in the minor leagues.
 

Section 509

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There both good prospects and suwinski reminds me of Reynolds in a way good defender, got some power and I think the average will get better with more experience
 

Zeldas Open Roof

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both Jack and O'neal should have over 30 HRs if they play a full season next year. i mean, i know their avg's suck but that's something.
 

Rupart33

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Suwinski is an infintely better defender at his position than Cruz. Suwinski is a much smarter player.

Cruz is a good bit faster. Both hit homeruns, Cruz long ones are longer. Both strike out a lot. Both are getting better about taking walks.

I think Suwinski hit for better average will in the minor leagues.
Suwinski 239 average in the minors, Cruz 275
 
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Hail412Pitt

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Don’t understand the talk about Cruz’s average. He’s got it up to .230 and he’s still a rookie. Walk rate improving. .250-.260 is not out of the question in the next few seasons, and neither is 40 HRs.
 
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