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OT: Dwayne Casey of Raptors fired

pittman71

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Sep 3, 2014
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I remember stating on this board that it is better to be someone like Pitt basketball, who nobody expected to win, than someone like Virginia, who was expected to win, won a lot of games, then went out quickly in the postseason. That UVA's season would be considered a failure because of their quick exit, moreso than Pitt's season. And I was told by at least one poster that I didn't know what I was talking about.

Toronto won 59 games and their coach was awarded coach of the year, but fired their coach because they couldn't get past Cleveland. This validates my point.
 
I get your metaphor and I think it's pretty true for UVA.

The NBA is different in that there is an old argument (if you don't have Pop) that you want a certain amount of coaching turnover. Larry Bird has long said it's very hard for a pro coach to keep his players attention for more than three years. That's one reason the Celtics let Bill Fitch go and hired KC Jones, despite Fitch coaching them to a title. And I think Casey started to lose the respect/attention/whatever of Derozan especially, and their management decided instead of blowing up the roster, you replace the coach.

In college, this isn't an issue because the players come and go every 1-4 years anyway. The Raptors might have the same back-court for a decade.

Which is to say, if Toronto won 45 games, he would have been fired too.
 
I remember stating on this board that it is better to be someone like Pitt basketball, who nobody expected to win, than someone like Virginia, who was expected to win, won a lot of games, then went out quickly in the postseason. That UVA's season would be considered a failure because of their quick exit, moreso than Pitt's season. And I was told by at least one poster that I didn't know what I was talking about.

Toronto won 59 games and their coach was awarded coach of the year, but fired their coach because they couldn't get past Cleveland. This validates my point.

What happened with Toronto does not make your take a good one.

Why on earth would you rather have a terrible team than one that is good for 99% of the season? As a fan, I want to watch as many fun, enjoyable games as I can. That means wins. Not getting boatraced like Pitt.
 
What happened with Toronto does not make your take a good one.

Why on earth would you rather have a terrible team than one that is good for 99% of the season? As a fan, I want to watch as many fun, enjoyable games as I can. That means wins. Not getting boatraced like Pitt.

The point is Toronto and UVA's seasons are regarded as failures even though they were dominant most of the year. The more you win the more expectations there are, while there are no expectations for a bad team.
 
The point is Toronto and UVA's seasons are regarded as failures even though they were dominant most of the year. The more you win the more expectations there are, while there are no expectations for a bad team.
Ok, those teams were failures. Pitt basketball was still a bigger failure last season. Given the choice no one walking planet earth today would rather have Pitt's most recent season over Virginia's, other than masochists.
 
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I have no idea how Casey got the 1 seed with that team. I would compare his coaching almost to a Dixon. Average players (from NBA standpoint), no true stars, good defense, flame out early.
 
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I have no idea how Casey got the 1 seed with that team. I would compare his coaching almost to a Dixon. Average players (from NBA standpoint), no true stars, good defense, flame out early.

1) Lebron doesn't give two craps about the regular season.. he coasts and had a pretty terrible team all year.

2) Celtics lost Hayward, then Kyrie. They were in it when Kyrie was healthy, but fell out once he got hurt at the end of the year.

3) John Wall was hurt for basically half of the year.

4) The East sucks

5) Derozan and Lowry were healthy the whole year, Jonas had a tremendous year. Delon Wright, Van Vleet, OG Annunoby, and Poetl all had great years as players off of the bench. OG actually started halfway through the year with Norman Powell getting hurt and not performing.

Toronto has a ton of talent and the East sucks. I think Casey is a really good coach, but I don't blame them for firing him. I don't give him as much credit for finishing 1st either. That should be expected with that team/how horrible the conference is/injuries to other contenders.
 
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The Raptors were among the healthiest teams I've ever seen. Casey did a good job in the regular season but to be the first #1 team swept in 50 odd years is going to have a consequence.

That said, they do have an obvious roster problem, which is no one who can slow down Lebron at all. Obviously no one can stop him, but other teams have had guys (Paul Pierce, Andre Iguodala, Kawhi Leonard, even Boris Diaw) who could at least hold him in check for a quarter or two at a time.
 
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The east doesn't really suck anymore, at least not like it did in the first 15 years of this century.
 
The east doesn't really suck anymore, at least not like it did in the first 15 years of this century.

Last year the east had a better record than the west for only the second time in 17 years. I think the west won about 52% I heard this year.

With Houston and GSW as probably the two best teams in the league, I think most will still give the edge to the west. Also the Nuggets finished with 46 wins and missed the playoffs, while the Heat managed a #6 seed with only 44 wins.
 
The east doesn't really suck anymore, at least not like it did in the first 15 years of this century.

The #1 team got swept.. Philly (a team that everyone thought was conference finals bound) got man handled by a depleted Celtics team. Lebron will give GSW and HOU everything he has, but he's the only person, and I mean person, that has a chance to win the finals from the East. No other team has a prayer. The East did have more depth, but the conference still sucks.
 
IMHO -- With Durant changing the equation at GSW (at least for another two years before salary breaks them up), Lebron's last chance to win a title is to go join a team like the Sixers that is better than Cleveland but still in the East. In fact, not sure any team except the Sixers would work in terms of cap space, roster quality, and conference.
 
Casey had every reason to get fired. How many times can you look your players in the eye and say this is the game plan and go out there and get kicked right in the face.

What happened to the Raptors regular season vs Playoffs is simple. The Raptors has a great year because their bench could stomp on opposing teams benches. Come playoff time the rotations shorten and for the most part the better players play 40 minutes a game.

The Celtics are ungodly right now and while they are depleted they still have the best Team in the east and that doesn’t mean the east sucks. Look at what they did to Philly and look at what they are doing to the Cavs right now up 18. Brad Stevens is something else
 
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Casey had every reason to get fired. How many times can you look your players in the eye and say this is the game plan and go out there and get kicked right in the face.

What happened to the Raptors regular season vs Playoffs is simple. The Raptors has a great year because their bench could stomp on opposing teams benches. Come playoff time the rotations shorten and for the most part the better players play 40 minutes a game.

The Celtics are ungodly right now and while they are depleted they still have the best Team in the east and that doesn’t mean the east sucks. Look at what they did to Philly and look at what they are doing to the Cavs right now up 18. Brad Stevens is something else

first off Boston has better players than Toronto. Second if anyone here can justify the firing of Casey then they had better justify Pitt getting rid of Wanny and Dixon.
 
The #1 team got swept.. Philly (a team that everyone thought was conference finals bound) got man handled by a depleted Celtics team. Lebron will give GSW and HOU everything he has, but he's the only person, and I mean person, that has a chance to win the finals from the East. No other team has a prayer. The East did have more depth, but the conference still sucks.
The Sixers got “manhandled”? Your credibility is lost with that statement alone.
 
The #1 team got swept.. Philly (a team that everyone thought was conference finals bound) got man handled by a depleted Celtics team. Lebron will give GSW and HOU everything he has, but he's the only person, and I mean person, that has a chance to win the finals from the East. No other team has a prayer. The East did have more depth, but the conference still sucks.
The Sixers got “manhandled”? Your credibility is lost with that statement alone.

How? They lost in 5 games.. please explain how they didn’t..
 
first off Boston has better players than Toronto. Second if anyone here can justify the firing of Casey then they had better justify Pitt getting rid of Wanny and Dixon.

Apples and oranges. The NBA by design is a high turnover coaching league where arguably the more important leaders are 1. your GM and 2. your star player. What Pitt did right or wrong with Wanny and Dixon is entirely unrelated to that.

That takes nothing away from Brad Stevens, for example, but Danny Ainge is the guy who in the last three years alone added Irving, Tatum, Rozier, Hayward, Horford, and Morris while also basically robbing my Sixers of another lottery pick.

They have the Kings 2019 pick, which could go as high as #1; they may get a Clippers pick; may get a Lakers pick; and definitely get one from Memphis. Those are all first round picks. Oh and they still own their own.
 
Apples and oranges. The NBA by design is a high turnover coaching league where arguably the more important leaders are 1. your GM and 2. your star player. What Pitt did right or wrong with Wanny and Dixon is entirely unrelated to that.

That takes nothing away from Brad Stevens, for example, but Danny Ainge is the guy who in the last three years alone added Irving, Tatum, Rozier, Hayward, Horford, and Morris while also basically robbing my Sixers of another lottery pick.

They have the Kings 2019 pick, which could go as high as #1; they may get a Clippers pick; may get a Lakers pick; and definitely get one from Memphis. Those are all first round picks. Oh and they still own their own.

so why wasn't the Toronto GM fired instead of Casey? Seems like Casey maximized the most wins out of that team as possible, when looking at their talent. You are basically making the point that Toronto should not have fired the coach but the GM for failing to put the right players on the roster to be able to at least slow down Lebron James.

Sixers basically were made to look like fools by Ainge, the most obvious is the Tatum/Fultz situation. Sixers number 1 pick doesn't even play in the series while Tatum not only plays but is probably the main reason for Boston taking down Philly.
 
so why wasn't the Toronto GM fired instead of Casey? Seems like Casey maximized the most wins out of that team as possible, when looking at their talent. You are basically making the point that Toronto should not have fired the coach but the GM for failing to put the right players on the roster to be able to at least slow down Lebron James.

I think Kyle Lowry saying it was a "wasted year" and that as a "leader of the team" he supports firing Casey shows why he had to go. You can't get swept and expect job security in the NBA, where there are a lot of hungry coaches ready to step in.

I think they'll go a different direction, for better or worse, with both players and the new coach to emphasize more pace and space/3 point shooting etc.

Right or wrong, owners do seem to trust GMs to make roster changes more than they trust coaches to make culture changes. There is a certain logic to that -- it's easier to trade a guy after all. But GMs get fired a lot too, it's both a players league and the owners have a lot of money invested in this stuff.
 
I remember stating on this board that it is better to be someone like Pitt basketball, who nobody expected to win, than someone like Virginia, who was expected to win, won a lot of games, then went out quickly in the postseason.
Unless you're Pitt women's softball, apparently.
 
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I remember stating on this board that it is better to be someone like Pitt basketball, who nobody expected to win, than someone like Virginia, who was expected to win, won a lot of games, then went out quickly in the postseason. That UVA's season would be considered a failure because of their quick exit, moreso than Pitt's season. And I was told by at least one poster that I didn't know what I was talking about.

Toronto won 59 games and their coach was awarded coach of the year, but fired their coach because they couldn't get past Cleveland. This validates my point.
I'm not sure I'm following your logic--you're saying it's "better" in some undefined way to be a bad team with low expectations that lives down to their billing than a very good team with high expectations that doesn't live up to expectations?

Pitt basketball has been both in the last 12 years, and I'll take the latter every time.

I think Toronto will rue the day they fired Casey. Last time I checked, they don't have Lebron James on their team, so I'm no sure how the expectation would be that they will beat Cleveland in the playoffs every year.
 
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I'm not sure I'm following your logic--you're saying it's "better" in some undefined way to be a bad team with low expectations that lives down to their billing than a very good team with high expectations that doesn't live up to expectations?

Pitt basketball has been both in the last 12 years, and I'll take the latter every time.

I think Toronto will rue the day they fired Casey. Last time I checked, they don't have Lebron James on their team, so I'm no sure how the expectation would be that they will beat Cleveland in the playoffs every year.

Your last paragraph is basically the point I was making. Casey was punished because of people's high expectations. Winning 59 games should be considered a successful season but it wasn't.
 
Your last paragraph is basically the point I was making. Casey was punished because of people's high expectations. Winning 59 games should be considered a successful season but it wasn't.

Winning 59 games is irrelevant to the Raptors ownership if they are swept in the second round. The NBA is about the playoffs.This isn't amateur athletics: there is no meaningful conference title trophy or banner to put up.

People trying to make this about Virginia or Pitt are just off track.
 
The point is Toronto and UVA's seasons are regarded as failures even though they were dominant most of the year. The more you win the more expectations there are, while there are no expectations for a bad team.

Yes, but 0-19 is truly a failure. Virginia and Toronto's seasons ended as disappointing, but hardly a fail.
 
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Yes, but 0-19 is truly a failure. Virginia and Toronto's seasons ended as disappointing, but hardly a fail.

Relative failure versus absolute. Virginia being the first 1 seed to lose to a 16 seed is definitely still failure, even if it doesn't retroactively negate the good things they accomplished. The only difference is that there's no silver lining at all to 0-19.
 
Yes, but 0-19 is truly a failure. Virginia and Toronto's seasons ended as disappointing, but hardly a fail.

Not the same.

Toronto has been to the NBA playoffs, in a weak eastern conference for five straight years. And for the fifth straight time, they exited the playoffs before the finals. And for the third time in five years!!!,they were swept in an eastern series in four games.

Casey is 21-30 in the playoffs. That's his real record and why he was fired.

Bennett won't be fired because his expectations are different because college and pro basketball ain't the same thing!
 
Winning 59 games is irrelevant to the Raptors ownership if they are swept in the second round. The NBA is about the playoffs.This isn't amateur athletics: there is no meaningful conference title trophy or banner to put up.

People trying to make this about Virginia or Pitt are just off track.

This is the same logic used by people who want Mike Tomlin fired.
 
Not the same.

Toronto has been to the NBA playoffs, in a weak eastern conference for five straight years. And for the fifth straight time, they exited the playoffs before the finals. And for the third time in five years!!!,they were swept in an eastern series in four games.

Casey is 21-30 in the playoffs. That's his real record and why he was fired.

Bennett won't be fired because his expectations are different because college and pro basketball ain't the same thing!

Are you sure about that? What were the expectations for Pitt football and basketball at the time of Wanny and Dixon's removal? (uh that's right Dixon resigned, sorry).
 
Relative failure versus absolute. Virginia being the first 1 seed to lose to a 16 seed is definitely still failure, even if it doesn't retroactively negate the good things they accomplished. The only difference is that there's no silver lining at all to 0-19.
Failure was the expectation every season at UVA before Bennett got the job. Without his coaching and system, that same group of players would likely max out at a mid-ACC level. Now he has the UVA faithful expecting to play for NCAA championships very year. Until they can add a couple of sure-fire future NBA players to their mix, they will be a Sweet 16 level team at best most years.

Bennett is the best example in college basketball right now of getting the most out of the talent level of your roster. Dixon was another example for several years, until he changed his winning formula at Pitt. There are always some exceptions, but the postseason usually exposes the teams that have been outplaying their talent level all season.
 
Failure was the expectation every season at UVA before Bennett got the job. Without his coaching and system, that same group of players would likely max out at a mid-ACC level. Now he has the UVA faithful expecting to play for NCAA championships very year. Until they can add a couple of sure-fire future NBA players to their mix, they will be a Sweet 16 level team at best most years.

Bennett is the best example in college basketball right now of getting the most out of the talent level of your roster. Dixon was another example for several years, until he changed his winning formula at Pitt. There are always some exceptions, but the postseason usually exposes the teams that have been outplaying their talent level all season.

Yes, failure was the expectation prior to Bennett. Then Bennett elevated the program. Suddenly there are a different set of standards and the prior standard no longer matters. Ergo, Bennett failed. That failure isn't damning, nobody should advocate for him to be fired or anything like that, but once you get a #1 seed and lose to UMBC in the first round, the honeymoon is over. If a few years from now, Bennett hasn't improved his recruiting and they're still bombing out of the tournament with regularity, then he'll be on the hot seat and justifiably so in my opinion.
 
Yes, failure was the expectation prior to Bennett. Then Bennett elevated the program. Suddenly there are a different set of standards and the prior standard no longer matters. Ergo, Bennett failed. That failure isn't damning, nobody should advocate for him to be fired or anything like that, but once you get a #1 seed and lose to UMBC in the first round, the honeymoon is over. If a few years from now, Bennett hasn't improved his recruiting and they're still bombing out of the tournament with regularity, then he'll be on the hot seat and justifiably so in my opinion.

this isn't the first season UVA has underachieved in the tournament. He would already been on the hot seat in certain areas. I guess UVA has a more forgiving fanbase.
 
Yes, failure was the expectation prior to Bennett. Then Bennett elevated the program. Suddenly there are a different set of standards and the prior standard no longer matters. Ergo, Bennett failed. That failure isn't damning, nobody should advocate for him to be fired or anything like that, but once you get a #1 seed and lose to UMBC in the first round, the honeymoon is over. If a few years from now, Bennett hasn't improved his recruiting and they're still bombing out of the tournament with regularity, then he'll be on the hot seat and justifiably so in my opinion.
The trick box coaches like Bennett and Dixon in his heyday is that their systems win then a lot of games, but those systems aren’t attractive to the elite offensive players coming out of H.S.-so those teams are built mostly of grinders with the occasional Sam Young or Malcolm Brogdon that blossom into elite scorers.
 
The trick box coaches like Bennett and Dixon in his heyday find themselves in is that their systems win them a lot of games, but those systems aren’t attractive to the elite offensive players coming out of H.S.-so those teams are built mostly of tough, physical grinders that enjoy defend Ong and rebounding, with the occasional Sam Young or Malcolm Brogdon that blossom into elite scorers. Pitt and Virginia aren’t going to get the kids Kentucky, Duke, Kansas, Michigan State or UNC get. So the best thing those programs and coaches can do is stay the course and hope to get lucky with a couple of players that blossom into NBA first rounders in the same roster. See Bo Ryan and Wisconsin for example.

I’m not sure why in his last few years at Pitt Dixon decided to abandon the style that made him so successful, but it ended up starting us down the path to 0-19. Be who you are.
 
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This is the same logic used by people who want Mike Tomlin fired.

Tomlin is 8-7 in the playoffs and has been to two super bowls and won one.
Casey is 21-30 in the playoffs and has never been to a finals and has been swept three times in five years.

Not the same.

If Casey even made one NBA finals he would have kept his job. But he has owners who spend a LOT of money on that roster and have every right to expect more. It's not the same as Tomlin but even LESS in common with Dixon or Wanny, who should have zero expectation to win a national title because college athletics has hundreds of teams very unequally funded going after amateur athletes unlike the NBA. Apples and oranges, big time.
 
Tomlin is 8-7 in the playoffs and has been to two super bowls and won one.
Casey is 21-30 in the playoffs and has never been to a finals and has been swept three times in five years.

Not the same.

If Casey even made one NBA finals he would have kept his job. But he has owners who spend a LOT of money on that roster and have every right to expect more. It's not the same as Tomlin but even LESS in common with Dixon or Wanny, who should have zero expectation to win a national title because college athletics has hundreds of teams very unequally funded going after amateur athletes unlike the NBA. Apples and oranges, big time.

LOL first off the Steelers haven't won a Super Bowl since 2008. Secondly NOBODY claims that Toronto has overwhelming talent and should be in the NBA Finals each year. Like they do with Pittsburgh. Third every NBA team owner spends a lot of money on their rosters, expecting more? Winning 59 games is not more/better than the majority of NBA teams?

And if Pitt has zero expectations to win a national title why did fans and eventually the administration Dixon and Wanny out?
 
LOL first off the Steelers haven't won a Super Bowl since 2008. Secondly NOBODY claims that Toronto has overwhelming talent and should be in the NBA Finals each year. Like they do with Pittsburgh. Third every NBA team owner spends a lot of money on their rosters, expecting more? Winning 59 games is not more/better than the majority of NBA teams?

And if Pitt has zero expectations to win a national title why did fans and eventually the administration Dixon and Wanny out?

I think your problem is you don't understand the NBA so you're talking out of your ass with this metaphor and applying it to other leagues and even amateur athletics.

Firing coaches, even who won titles (Paul Westhead, Bill Fitch, Byron Scott) if they don't get along with the star players or have a couple of bad playoff years, is common. It's not primarily a coach's league. This thread is going no where so feel free to have the last word at me.
 
I think your problem is you don't understand the NBA so you're talking out of your ass with this metaphor and applying it to other leagues and even amateur athletics.

Firing coaches, even who won titles (Paul Westhead, Bill Fitch, Byron Scott) if they don't get along with the star players or have a couple of bad playoff years, is common.

And in the majority of cases those teams end up regretting their stupid moves. And the fact that you are going back to fking 1981 and 1982 to solidify your argument is a joke.

And I can easily cite a Lionel Hollins who like Casey was fired after leading his team to a franchise record in wins. Toronto will likely follow the same path that Memphis did after the firing.
 
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