OT: Game of Thrones

[Ski11585]

Anyone who posts over at TOS knows that I am a huge, huge fan of George R.R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire. They also know that I have very strong feelings about the show as an adaptation.

Well, my wife loves the show and at her request we've been rewatching parts of seasons 1-4 and all of season 5 in preparation for the season premier. All I can say is that I had managed to forget what a terrible job the show has done as an adaptation and how bad the show has gotten, on its own merits, in season 5. The internal logic and consistency of the show itself is increasingly absent, and the show continues to resort to sexist and misogynistic tropes in lieu of good storytelling.

I will watch season 6, but I expect it to continue its downward trend in quality and its descent into AU fanfiction. I have fully embraced the hate watching.

 

[BuffetParrothead]

Anyone who posts over at TOS knows that I am a huge, huge fan of George R.R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire. They also know that I have very strong feelings about the show as an adaptation.

Well, my wife loves the show and at her request we've been rewatching parts of seasons 1-4 and all of season 5 in preparation for the season premier. All I can say is that I had managed to forget what a terrible job the show has done as an adaptation and how bad the show has gotten, on its own merits, in season 5. The internal logic and consistency of the show itself is increasingly absent, and the show continues to resort to sexist and misogynistic tropes in lieu of good storytelling.

I will watch season 6, but I expect it to continue its downward trend in quality and its descent into AU fanfiction. I have fully embraced the hate watching.

 

[Ski11585]

Thanks for the thoughtful response!

 

[DruidTM]

If they bring back Snow and not Stoneheart or even both but with Snow first I'm done...they kinda screwed it all up really...

 

[Jeffburgh]

Not being a fiction book reader, I don't suffer the disillusion with the series that the book readers do.

Overall, I think it is a masterful series.

But, I did feel slippage in the last season.

 

[2lbTurtle]

Anyone who posts over at TOS knows that I am a huge, huge fan of George R.R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire. They also know that I have very strong feelings about the show as an adaptation.

Well, my wife loves the show and at her request we've been rewatching parts of seasons 1-4 and all of season 5 in preparation for the season premier. All I can say is that I had managed to forget what a terrible job the show has done as an adaptation and how bad the show has gotten, on its own merits, in season 5. The internal logic and consistency of the show itself is increasingly absent, and the show continues to resort to sexist and misogynistic tropes in lieu of good storytelling.

I will watch season 6, but I expect it to continue its downward trend in quality and its descent into AU fanfiction. I have fully embraced the hate watching.

I have always been mindful of the undertaking that any adaptation of ASOIAF would be. That being said, there was an 'offness' to last season and I enter the 'post source material' era of the show with a certain amount of anxiety...

 

[DruidTM]

That's another problem....post source?....If they actually tried to stick to source and quit dropping stuff they wouldn't be having this problem....no way should they be this far along...blame the show...not Martin for that ...

 

[Ski11585]

I suppose I'm just disappointed because each season the show runners appear to care less and less about trying. To actually adapt Martin's work. Instead of the Queenmaker plot we got that absolutely terrible Dorne storyline, for example.

Moreover, they have now shown that they don't actually understand Martin's characters or the themes he is trying to write. Yet when the show comes under criticism, they love to hide behind the books.

Just comparing them to Peter Jackson is illuminating. The GOT team and actors are very hostile to the books, while Jackson and the actors for LOTR were constantly reading and checking the source material while filming.

There is absolutely no way you can tell me ending last season with "Olly" is an improvement over thoughts of Arya and "Ghost."

 

[DruidTM]

Basically the only big thing Jackson left out of the LOTR trilogy was the scouring of the Shire... Basically the only season that actually followed a book in GOT was season 1....that's pretty bad... They managed to turn something as important as the Red Wedding into a random meaningless carnage with zero resolution... And they've done this numerous times... Worse tv only people are clamouring for a return of snow who died 15 mins ago...I could care less about his return after the Stoneheart nonsense....

 

[drunkinoakland]

Anyone who posts over at TOS knows that I am a huge, huge fan of George R.R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire. They also know that I have very strong feelings about the show as an adaptation.

Well, my wife loves the show and at her request we've been rewatching parts of seasons 1-4 and all of season 5 in preparation for the season premier. All I can say is that I had managed to forget what a terrible job the show has done as an adaptation and how bad the show has gotten, on its own merits, in season 5. The internal logic and consistency of the show itself is increasingly absent, and the show continues to resort to sexist and misogynistic tropes in lieu of good storytelling.

I will watch season 6, but I expect it to continue its downward trend in quality and its descent into AU fanfiction. I have fully embraced the hate watching.

1. I've been hate watching the show since mid season 2. 1 was great, and 2 was good and now it is awful. i say this as someone who has never read the books.

2. Nothing dumber than "source material" fans who complain about every adaptation. If you don't like it, don't watch. Sorry, but it is true.

 

[ratking17]

I love the books and love the show. I don't need the books and show to align. Last season was not as strong but the episode with the king night walker might have been some of the best 15 minutes of that show. Chilling to see him raise the dead and then make eye contact with jon

 

[Ski11585]

1. I've been hate watching the show since mid season 2. 1 was great, and 2 was good and now it is awful. i say this as someone who has never read the books.

2. Nothing dumber than "source material" fans who complain about every adaptation. If you don't like it, don't watch. Sorry, but it is true.

I have no problem with making adaptation all changes. I have problems with terrible adaptational decisions and bad writing. GOT is far too often the latter.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

That's another problem....post source?....If they actually tried to stick to source and quit dropping stuff they wouldn't be having this problem....no way should they be this far along...blame the show...not Martin for that ...

If they actually tried to stick to the source material the same way that Jackson did with LOTR they would be just about ready to start the sixth season of what would be a 3,347 season series.

 

[Ski11585]

If they actually tried to stick to the source material the same way that Jackson did with LOTR they would be just about ready to start the sixth season of what would be a 3,347 season series.

Bogus. If they were concerned about paring down Martin's work they wouldn't add garbage plot lines that only exist in the show. Cut to cut, not to add bad original content.

 

[buckage]

1. I've been hate watching the show since mid season 2. 1 was great, and 2 was good and now it is awful. i say this as someone who has never read the books.

2. Nothing dumber than "source material" fans who complain about every adaptation. If you don't like it, don't watch. Sorry, but it is true.

Wait...#2 contradicts #1.

 

[drunkinoakland]

Wait...#2 contradicts #1.

Not at all. I've never read the books. And if I did, I wouldn't constantly complain about how the show was different or worse. Not just with GOT but with anything.

I still watch the show because the first few seasons got me invested in characters and frankly I'm interested to see what happens and since Martin is never going to finish the books, I need to see how the show eventually ends.

 

[DruidTM]

Wait...if you haven't read the books how can you know you wouldn't complain if you felt they've screwed up with the show? That makes no sense at all....because to be honest the feeling is pretty universal from the book readers camp that the show went way off the rails awhile ago...and as noted the changes don't improve it and the show ignores any of its own internal consistancy....with some parts being rubbish. I guess ignorance is bliss...but I doubt you would feel the same if you read the books. Its that bad. Aren't you one of the people that hated the Batman Superman film?... that storyline was better than anything all last season on GOT....I'm totally serious.

 

[SoufOaklin4Life]

Wait...if you haven't read the books how can you know you wouldn't complain if you felt they've screwed up with the show? That makes no sense at all....because to be honest the feeling is pretty universal from the book readers camp that the show went way off the rails awhile ago...and as noted the changes don't improve it and the show ignores any of its own internal consistancy....with some parts being rubbish. I guess ignorance is bliss...but I doubt you would feel the same if you read the books. Its that bad. Aren't you one of the people that hated the Batman Superman film?... that storyline was better than anything all last season on GOT....I'm totally serious.

Seems pretty simple to me...
He doesn't like the show based on the merit of the show itself.

He understands a show and a book are different things. Belly aching about how they were different is a waste of time because that's inherent.

You and I've had this same discussion.
Just enjoy the fantasy for what it is, entertainment... Or don't and tune out.

Raging about fictioN is pretty silly.

 

[DruidTM]

Actually raging isn't what I'm doing ....but if that's what you want to call it raging is fun...

I think you are missing my point ... It's a bit silly to say IF you read the books you wouldn't complain about the show IF in fact you've never read the books? Caprice?

It's light debate to me all in fun

 

[Ski11585]

Seems pretty simple to me...
He doesn't like the show based on the merit of the show itself.

He understands a show and a book are different things. Belly aching about how they were different is a waste of time because that's inherent.

You and I've had this same discussion.
Just enjoy the fantasy for what it is, entertainment... Or don't and tune out.

Raging about fictioN is pretty silly.

We've argued about this before and memory tells me I shouldn't open up this can of worms again. But GOT is incredibly popular and a huge part of the cultural conversation right now. Yet, pop culture doesn't happen in a vacuum. When the show consistently falls back on sexist and misogynistic tropes, or senseless violence against women, it deserves to be criticized, not have those criticisms brushed away because it's just a fantasy show. Culture does not happen in a vacuum.

 

[DruidTM]

To add I just read yesterday that the show runners are taking characters back to the books.... At least to a degree ...and Stoneheart seems likely... Seems someone is listening to the complaining and responding after last season ....it can't hurt that Martin was vocal as well....

 

[SoufOaklin4Life]

We've argued about this before and memory tells me I shouldn't open up this can of worms again. But GOT is incredibly popular and a huge part of the cultural conversation right now. Yet, pop culture doesn't happen in a vacuum. When the show consistently falls back on sexist and misogynistic tropes, or senseless violence against women, it deserves to be criticized, not have those criticisms brushed away because it's just a fantasy show. Culture does not happen in a vacuum.

Anonymous criticism on a sports message board may as well happen in a vacuum.

I'd suggest perhaps the show is reflective of the CULTURE OF THE IMAGINARY TIME, not present day.
Deep breaths. But, I appreciate you'll watch and dissect rather than voting with your feet.

 

[HailtoPitt]

To be fair, the books go downhill after the first three as well.

 

[Ski11585]

Anonymous criticism on a sports message board may as well happen in a vacuum.

I'd suggest perhaps the show is reflective of the CULTURE OF THE IMAGINARY TIME, not present day.
Deep breaths. But, I appreciate you'll watch and dissect rather than voting with your feet.

Well, this criticism isn't just limited to sports message boards. And you're also making the assumption that I'm not doing anything outside this sports board to engage with GOT on a critical level. And as I said - to try and dismiss it as an "imaginary culture" is to stick your head in the sand. You're smarter than that, Souf. At least you certainly think so. Plenty of people, from critics to folks who engage in critical cultural analysis, have talked about the problematic aspects of the show.

To be fair, the books go downhill after the first three as well.

I respectfully disagree. The tone of the books certainly change, but the quality of writing and themes present in the text are far more powerful in AFfC and DwD. The first few texts are more traditionally action-packed fantasy works.

 

[HailtoPitt]

I respectfully disagree. The tone of the books certainly change, but the quality of writing and themes present in the text are far more powerful in AFfC and DwD. The first few texts are more traditionally action-packed fantasy works.

What would you call 4 and 5 if the first three are traditionally action packed fantasy works?

 

[Ski11585]

What would you call 4 and 5 if the first three are traditionally action packed fantasy works?

I think they're far more focused on the internal struggles of the POV characters and reflect Martin's strong ability to highlight issues of identity and leadership while drawing parallels between the various POV characters.

 

[HailtoPitt]

I think they're far more focused on the internal struggles of the POV characters and reflect Martin's strong ability to highlight issues of identity and leadership while drawing parallels between the various POV characters.

So in other words... BORING!

 

[Ski11585]

So in other words... BORING!

Yeah. No.

 

[drunkinoakland]

Wait...if you haven't read the books how can you know you wouldn't complain if you felt they've screwed up with the show? That makes no sense at all....because to be honest the feeling is pretty universal from the book readers camp that the show went way off the rails awhile ago...and as noted the changes don't improve it and the show ignores any of its own internal consistancy....with some parts being rubbish. I guess ignorance is bliss...but I doubt you would feel the same if you read the books. Its that bad. Aren't you one of the people that hated the Batman Superman film?... that storyline was better than anything all last season on GOT....I'm totally serious.

I'm saying if I hated the changes that much I'd probably stop watching the show. Or I'd at least watch it without complaining every 30 seconds.

 

[drunkinoakland]

We've argued about this before and memory tells me I shouldn't open up this can of worms again. But GOT is incredibly popular and a huge part of the cultural conversation right now. Yet, pop culture doesn't happen in a vacuum. When the show consistently falls back on sexist and misogynistic tropes, or senseless violence against women, it deserves to be criticized, not have those criticisms brushed away because it's just a fantasy show. Culture does not happen in a vacuum.

How is the violence against women sexist or senseless?

The setting of the show is in a fuedal society. The sexism and violence is an accurate portrayal of a fuedal society. Unfortunately.

 

[drunkinoakland]

Hey guys, this show I'm wat hin about slavery is so racist because it shows slaves.....

 

[Ski11585]

How is the violence against women sexist or senseless?

The setting of the show is in a fuedal society. The sexism and violence is an accurate portrayal of a fuedal society. Unfortunately.

I don't particularly have time to respond here to the extent I'd like, but I will say that the "accurate portrayal of society" response is absolute garbage. It's a terrible justification people trot out but is not consistently backed up by content on the show. Case in point is the fabricated character of Talisa. She is 100% anachronistic and the fact that her character exists and is portrayed in such a manner shows how little the show producers cared about "accurately portraying" a society.

 

[drunkinoakland]

I don't particularly have time to respond here to the extent I'd like, but I will say that the "accurate portrayal of society" response is absolute garbage. It's a terrible justification people trot out but is not consistently backed up by content on the show. Case in point is the fabricated character of Talisa. She is 100% anachronistic and the fact that her character exists and is portrayed in such a manner shows how little the show producers cared about "accurately portraying" a society.

No idea what you are talking about. As a matter of fact I don't even know if I saw the Red Wedding or season 3 to be honest so I have no idea what in the hell you are talking about.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

.it can't hurt that Martin was vocal as well....

Martin has been a big part of the show since day one, to the point that he has actually written the screenplay for several episodes. The notion that there was something major that has happened on the series up until this point that Martin was adamantly against is laughable on it's face. Martin has been on board with literally every major decision that the show runners have made, and has said so numerous times in the past.

The difference is that Martin has said since day one that he realizes that there is a difference between books and television shows so he understands that the television show couldn't be the same as the books, that there would have to be changes. You'd think that wouldn't be a hard concept for people to understand, but I guess not.

 

[Ski11585]

Martin has been a big part of the show since day one, to the point that he has actually written the screenplay for several episodes. The notion that there was something major that has happened on the series up until this point that Martin was adamantly against is laughable on it's face. Martin has been on board with literally every major decision that the show runners have made, and has said so numerous times in the past.

The difference is that Martin has said since day one that he realizes that there is a difference between books and television shows so he understands that the television show couldn't be the same as the books, that there would have to be changes. You'd think that wouldn't be a hard concept for people to understand, but I guess not.

Except anyone who regularly reads Martin's blog will note that he is A) far less quick to praise the show and B) far quicker to offer subtle criticisms of the show. He also did not write anything for season 5 and will not be writing anything for season 6. To claim he has "been on board with literally every major decision" is patently false.

 

[DruidTM]

Yeah this story ran like...everywhere last year...

http://www.idigitaltimes.com/game-thrones-george-rr-martin-wanted-lady-stoneheart-hbo-series-446290

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

Yeah this story ran like...everywhere last year...

http://www.idigitaltimes.com/game-thrones-george-rr-martin-wanted-lady-stoneheart-hbo-series-446290

Which, you know, kind of proves my point. Thanks.

"Martin recently told Entertainment Weekly he understands why the showrunners cut out some characters from the book."

"Martin may disagree with the HBO cutting out some of his favorite characters, but the writer has stated multiple times the show is the show and the books are the books."

 

[OmarLittle]

So in other words... BORING!

you want boring, read 173 pages of perrin walking through the woods..
(still my favorite series ever for those that know the reference)

 

[DruidTM]

Which, you know, kind of proves my point. Thanks.

"Martin recently told Entertainment Weekly he understands why the showrunners cut out some characters from the book."

"Martin may disagree with the HBO cutting out some of his favorite characters, but the writer has stated multiple times the show is the show and the books are the books."

And yet more recent articles claim they are going more "book accurate" this year...seems the complaints stung a bit.... Why the contempt for readers expressing their opinion in the first place? Believe it or not that's how it comes across... And it's not my fault people are too lazy to read and find out for them self what's missing?

 

[OmarLittle]

you just can't squeeze in Arya's entire journey for instance, but if someone online somewhere has just cut out her story (in the books) so far...read it. You will see although shes a favorite on the show, what a drastic difference it is and how much better it is to just read. The only reason i give a rats ass about the show is I think it might make martin write the books a little faster.