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OT: How do you fix the Penguins?

HailToPitt725

Head Coach
May 16, 2016
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Another disappointing early exit for the Penguins. Regardless of the fact that it was a wonky season and unusual ending, there’s a lot of soul searching that needs to be done.

How do they move forward and win one more with their “big three” (Crosby, Malkin, Guentzel)? What trades need to be made, players signed (or cut), and prospects called up? Do they need to move on from GMJR and/or Mike Sullivan, or can they stay and simply change strategy (more up-tempo, increased forecheck, etc.)?

Let me hear it. Perhaps we’ll get a much-needed shot in the arm on Monday with the Draft Lottery, but I’m not counting on it. What say you?
 
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yeah bro. Its all luck
I remember being about 27 and the NHL lost a season due to labor battles and the next season they started shoot - outs and they had a LOTTERY for the #1 pick , some thought we should not be involved but we had a chance at the kid named Sid. I screamed my head off wathcing the TV in my corner of the world cause I knew it would make my city great .
Monday is big.
 
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A - need a great new coach
B - need to discard the deadwood on the roster
C - need to get lucky with a couple new players
D - need to be healthy for the playoffs
 
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yeah bro. Its all luck
I remember being about 27 and the NHL lost a season due to labor battles and the next season they started shoot - outs and they had a LOTTERY for the #1 pick , some thought we should not be involved but we had a chance at the kid named Sid. I screamed my head off wathcing the TV in my corner of the world cause I knew it would make my city great .
Monday is big.
This kid is good, but he's not Sidney Crosby. Or Mario Lemieux. Or Jaromir Jagr. Or Geno Malkin. He would help alot though.
 
start the rebuild, team is no longer a cup contender. Trade Geno, Murray and Letang for the best you can get on draft picks. Cut ties with Sheary, Schultz, Johnson and Aston-Reese. load up on young giuys to go along with Sid, Jake, Marino and LaFreniere
 
start the rebuild, team is no longer a cup contender. Trade Geno, Murray and Letang for the best you can get on draft picks. Cut ties with Sheary, Schultz, Johnson and Aston-Reese. load up on young giuys to go along with Sid, Jake, Marino and LaFreniere
Curious, what’s your reasoning for trading Geno and Tanger? Murray I get because Jarry seems to be the guy and we’d lose one of them anyways in the expansion draft. But Malkin led the team in points and while Letang does have his moments, he was an All Star this season.

Is it because you think they can get peak return for those two now or do you think they’re just not a good fit here anymore?
 
Fire the goof Rutherford...
If they didn't tank... someone needs a hockey fight.
Things seem easy but you have to factor in the salary cap.
 
First off, as a Sabres fan I must tell you that your fan base is spoiled. I love talking anything regarding hockey. The Penguins have to realize that the Crosby chapter of their franchise is closing (if not closed), and 3 cups during that era is great! They may as well part ways with Malkin, Letang, and possibly Crosby in the near future and begin a rebuild for the next chapter of their history. Nothing to be ashamed of. Pens could collect a lot of prospects and pick for their veterans.
 
start the rebuild, team is no longer a cup contender. Trade Geno, Murray and Letang for the best you can get on draft picks. Cut ties with Sheary, Schultz, Johnson and Aston-Reese. load up on young giuys to go along with Sid, Jake, Marino and LaFreniere
When did they get LaFreniere?
 
I think the first thing I'd do if I was Rutherford is move on from Murray. Unfortunately, he hasn't been the same goaltender since his father passed away and I feel terribly for him in that regard. I also think it'll help Sullivan because he has a bias (for obvious reason) for Murray. It was clear that Jarry was better all year.

Second, I would not even consider bringing back Schultz, Sheary, McCann, or Marleau.

I would also consider trading Letang (for the right price) but I'm not sure if Sid would allow it. If they were able to trade him I'd take a look and try to go big with Taylor Hall because he doesn't seem like he wants anything to do with Arizona.
 
I think the first thing I'd do if I was Rutherford is move on from Murray. Unfortunately, he hasn't been the same goaltender since his father passed away and I feel terribly for him in that regard. I also think it'll help Sullivan because he has a bias (for obvious reason) for Murray. It was clear that Jarry was better all year.

Second, I would not even consider bringing back Schultz, Sheary, McCann, or Marleau.

I would also consider trading Letang (for the right price) but I'm not sure if Sid would allow it. If they were able to trade him I'd take a look and try to go big with Taylor Hall because he doesn't seem like he wants anything to do with Arizona.
Would you consider re-signing McCann as a LW and not as a C? I don’t know how much he’d go for, though, so bringing him back as a 3rd line winger might not make a lot of sense.
 
My take on where this team is at right now: The Pens aren’t going to win the Stanley Cup in 2021. They’re probably not going to win it in 2022, either. However, I think after that the window might be slightly jarred open for us to make one more Stanley Cup run.

Here’s why I say this. For better or worse, we’re locked into the core group we have right now because of the money we’ve invested in them and the projected salary cap over the next few seasons. This consists of Sid/Geno/Jake/Rust/Zucker(Horny?) for the forwards and Tanger/Dumo/Marino/Pettersson on defense. This means that, barring a major trade, any improvement to this team will come from within.

Now, the goal every year should be to make the playoffs in hopes of winning the Stanley Cup, and I think they will the next two seasons. However, the ultimate big-picture goal should be to make sure the prospects/Baby Pens are ready to go for when that “last hurrah” comes, or at the very least determining who can be counted on to contribute towards this. This likely includes whoever we draft this year, whether it’s Laferniere or someone else at #15, and guys like Legare/Poulin/O’Connor/Bjorkqvist on offense and Joseph/Lee on defense.

I guess what I’m getting to is that IMO, the fate of the final Crosby/Malkin/Letang years will rely on the guys already here and prospects that have yet to come up. At the same time, we probably shouldn’t panic if improvement is not seen next season or the year after if there’s some growing pains while trying to break these guys in, at least not until the next wave of rookies are all here.

At the end of the day, I think they have one last gasp in them, and I will cherish every game they play until they ride into the sunset.
 
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Curious, what’s your reasoning for trading Geno and Tanger? Murray I get because Jarry seems to be the guy and we’d lose one of them anyways in the expansion draft. But Malkin led the team in points and while Letang does have his moments, he was an All Star this season.

Is it because you think they can get peak return for those two now or do you think they’re just not a good fit here anymore?

I think they're no longer a cup contender and, in order to facilitate a rebuild, these are two that would bring a return in either younger players and/or draft picks.

Mrs. Geno expressed a desire for him to be on a different team a couple months ago, likely destination is Florida
 
Would you consider re-signing McCann as a LW and not as a C? I don’t know how much he’d go for, though, so bringing him back as a 3rd line winger might not make a lot of sense.

I would not consider McCann at all. He had a hot start for the Pens last year when he was traded but hasn't done anything since.

There's a reason Vancouver and Florida moved on from him....
 
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Replace the middling, aging players
Eat JJs contract
Dont resign JS
Try to unload Bjug’s contract.
Trade the young defensemen that the coaches won’t play Like Riikola
Trade Letang—I await the venom from certain Letang apologists. Still has value and he lost a step. His playoff stats in recent years is bad.
Acquire young talent and do NOT trade any more 1st round draft picks.
Trade Murray for a pick or a player. Middling and not worth what it will cost to sign him.
 
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This past playoff. They were really out of sync, especially on the PP. Too many passes on Montreal sticks. The D including Doumalin played bad, especially Shultz. Sheary should not be on the team. Guentzel was not 100% he buries at least 3 goals before the injury. Malkin had the most shots but only a few were quality and he looked lazy at times. McCann shoots but can't hit the net and for his size is not physical. Horny works his ass off but gives away 20-30 pounds when in front of the net. Finally, and not to make an excuse but the ice favored the Canadians. The Pens never play well on bad ice. Even Crosby who was the best player out there had trouble with the bouncing puck. For some reason Montreal did not.
 
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How would I fix the Penguins? I’m so glad you asked.

My first order of business would be to not overreact as that is almost always a mistake.

However, I would definitely be open to anything short of trading Crosby. I think you always have to be open minded or you’re doing yourself a disservice.

Still, to trade away Malkin or Letang, I would have to get bowled over with an offer and I just don’t think that’s going to happen.

As I said earlier this week in another thread, I don’t know who we are going to realistically bring in to replace either one of those guys with that would make us better in the short term?

I just don’t think that’s likely at all.

However, if Florida, for example, offers say, Barkov for Geno or Ekblad for Letang, sure, let’s do it!

However, do you think that’s likely? Me neither.

Take the players out of it and just look at their minutes and you are talking about replacing your number two center’s minutes and you’re number one defenseman’s minutes. Now, name for me a team that has done that and has immediately gotten better.

I’m sure it has happened in hockey history but I am not aware of such an instance.

If we trade either one of those guys, we might as well trade the other one too, because at that point, we are definitely into a full on rebuild, IMHO.
 
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Look, the Penguins lost in spectacular fashion, so I certainly understand everyone’s emotion. I also understand the thought process that when your core is all in their mid-30s, it might be time to shake things up. Finally, I understand the temptation to look for trends.

I get all of that – I really do. However, I just don’t agree with the conclusions some people are coming to. The nicest way I can say it is I simply think you’re wrong.

I think a MUCH more prudent approach would be to give greater weight to the much larger sample size of the regular season than the four-game sample size of the Montreal series or, for some, the eight game sample size of the Montreal and Islanders series.

I’m really not looking for production as much as I am opportunities. Again, with hockey, one’s relative production is sometimes a byproduct of fortune — both good and bad.

However, what you were looking for, and will you hire professional scouts to evaluate this thing rather than statisticians, is are they generating opportunities and limiting them at the other end?

In other words, is Geno still playing like a good number two center and is Letang still playing like a good top pairing defenseman?

The answer to those questions are obviously yes and yes. It’s not even debatable. Therefore, I am inclined to move on to reality-based solutions.
 
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As for what the Penguins can/should do that doesn’t involve euthanizing the entire enterprise, I think there are some options there.

The team’s biggest problem, by a mile, was their defense. That unit scored just 30 goals for the entire season and 15 of them came from Letang — the guy everyone wants to run out of town every year.

The way hockey is played today, you need to get production from your back end. It simply has to happen.

Just watch these games are being played in the bubble, I have watched 80% of them or so, and you see that cycling the puck to the point and having defensemen who can score from that position is a really big deal and we just don’t have that.

Justin Schultz was supposed to be that guy but his play fell off as much as any player I can ever remember. He was our number one defenseman in our 2017 playoff run and now, he’s not even among our six best defensemen.

Jack Johnson was somehow even worse.

Putting them together was a massive problem for the Pens. Johnson was on the ice for six of Montreal’s 10 goals in the series. Also, when you look at the larger sample size of the last two regular seasons, he was just as bad or worse. This was no anomaly, this is what Jack Johnson is and what he has always been.

The Pittsburgh is going to regret trading Calen Addison for a long time as he is EXACTLY what they need - A good, young, cheap, mobile, creative defenseman who can create offense from the blue line.

I really like Zucker and I’m glad he’s on our team. However, I would’ve rather kept that young defenseman than probably any other prospect in the system.

Pittsburgh has too many defenseman who are impotent offensively. They may need to move one of them. Obviously you keep Marino and Letang as they bring the qualities that we need. They are effective at both ends of the ice. Marino obviously had just six goals this year, but his contract is attractive and I think he has the opportunity to develop into a really good player.

Petterson and Dumoulin are non-factors on offense and I think we are probably going to have to eventually deal one of them.
 
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As for the forward lines, the third line was definitely the biggest problem. The fourth line obviously had a rough series against Montreal, but they had a pretty good year overall.

Marleau added absolutely nothing and McCann was frustratingly inconsistent all season long.

I think Bjugstadt still has a lot to offer, but I suspect he may be leaving as well. I think he or McCann are very strong candidates to be scooped up by Seattle. Teddy Blueger is another guy I could see the Kraken taking. He has become a pretty nice bottom six guy.

I understand the argument for trading Hornqvist (and his contract) and I’d be open to it. However, he is our one proven interior player. He has definitely lost a step and he’s not a player he once was, but I would be leery of losing him.

I think Johnson has to go and honestly, I would try to package him in a trade for Murray. I still think Murray is attractive enough for someone to take a shot at him. He’s a 26 year-old two-time Stanley Cup winning goaltender. How many of those are out there?

There will definitely be interest in him out there. I know he hasn’t played great for some time now, but he has won two Stanley Cups and I would think that many organizations probably see his issues as being fixable.

One issue that he has that drives me bananas is that he has a tendency to play way too deep in his net. That is something we should’ve been able to fix. Fixing his glove hand probably never going to happen but we can control where he holds his glove – which is often too low.

I wonder if Pittsburgh can tie Johnson to Murray and accept a lower return?

Normally, a starting goaltender would net you at least a first round pick and a good prospect. Maybe, we accept the pick alone or a lower round pick?

Honestly, if we could pull that off, I would definitely do it as I think the salary cap relief would be worth more than almost any prospect there.
 
How would I fix the Penguins? I’m so glad you asked.

My first order of business would be to not overreact as that is almost always a mistake.

However, I would definitely be open to anything short of trading Crosby. I think you always have to be open minded or you’re doing yourself a disservice.

Still, to trade away Malkin or Letang, I would have to get bowled over with an offer and I just don’t think that’s going to happen.

As I said earlier this week in another thread, I don’t know who we are going to realistically bring in to replace either one of those guys with that would make us better in the short term?

I just don’t think that’s likely at all.

However, if Florida, for example, offers say, Barkov for Geno or Ekblad for Letang, sure, let’s do it!

However, do you think that’s likely? Me neither.

Take the players out of it and just look at their minutes and you are talking about replacing your number two center’s minutes and you’re number one defenseman’s minutes. Now, name for me a team that has done that and has immediately gotten better.

I’m sure it has happened in hockey history but I am not aware of such an instance.

If we trade either one of those guys, we might as well trade the other one too, because at that point, we are definitely into a full on rebuild, IMHO.
Probably closest comparison would be the Oilers, but I get your point, which is why I’m keen on holding onto Malkin and Letang until “the wheels fall off.”
 
This team with "the core" will not win another cup. No size, diminishing speed, no grit and "the core" will not change the way they play. They're up against the wall financially, no flexixibilty to make significant changes. Who will take guys like Bjugstad, Johnson and Hornquist off your hands. Aston Reese (the next hiornquist) is a bust. Malkin and Letang will continue to lose value as the years pass. If the Pens keep them at this point, you're committing to holding them until there's no value left. What to do...
 
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Yeah, the ‘94 Rangers were the team that popped into my head. They had a lot of guys who had been great players, and who were still excellent players, but older. Mark Messier, for example, was 33 years-old in the Rags’ ‘94 Cup run. That’s how old Crosby is now.

However, even in that example, Brian Leetch was New York’s best player at that time and he was 25 years-old. Leetch deservedly won the Conn Smythe Trophy as playoff MVP.

Mike Richter, their all-star goalie, was 27 during his Stanley Cup winning performance.
 
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This team with "the core" will not win another cup. No size, diminishing speed, no grit and "the core" will not change the way they play. They're up against the wall financially, no flexixibilty to make significant changes. Who will take guys like Bjugstad, Johnson and Hornquist off your hands. Aston Reese (the next hiornquist) is a bust. Malkin and Letang will continue to lose value as the years pass. If the Pens keep them at this point, you're committing to holding them until there's no value left. What to do...

I think those are three different questions. Bjugstad has not been healthy during his time in Pittsburgh, but he has proven himself in this league and he definitely has value. Plus, he can play any of your top nine forward positions. That’s definitely valuable.

Hornqvist is another guy who will find a market. He’s one of the best net front presence guys in the entire league. He definitely still has value, which is why I fear he may be one of the first to go.

As for Johnson, well, you have a point there.

I don’t agree that Aston-Reese is a bust. He’s not Hornqvist, but who is? Name for me another player in the league who is as good around the net as Hornqvist?

Corey Perry is the only one I can think of around the league that is similar. He is now much slower than Hornqvist and he still had a market.

Perry has 11 goals over the past two seasons. Hornqvist has 35.

Aston-Reese is what he is, an undrafted free agent who is a defensive specialist and a fourth liner. He is a REALLY outstanding defensive forward. Anyone who expected much more than that from a college signee with limited skating ability is probably asking for a bit too much.
 
I see teams like Boston, Philadelphia, and Chicago and they have rebuilt their rosters with young talent.

For example, look at all the good young players Boston has surrounded Bergeron, Chara, Marchand, and Krejci with.

Those guys are as old or older than the Penguins’ core. However, Boston has also added really talented pieces like Pasternak, and McAvoy, and Krug, and Carlo, and Karally and Grzelyck. That makes a really big difference!

Philadelphia went through a few rough years there but they landed a tremendous young goaltender and tons of excellent young defensemen and now they’re ready to roll.

Personally, I don’t think they are yet good enough to beat either Tampa or Boston in a seven game series, but I also think they’re going to have the opportunity to prove me wrong, which is a credit to them.

I have been against trading away our top prospects and draft picks for the last few years now, because I could see this train coming.

I was very upset about trading Addison this past year. I saw him as a window extender.

However, that’s water over the dam now and we need to make sure that we are continuing to draft and develop good players going forward.

No more credit card mentality.

I think we are closer to being excellent again than most seem to realize right now. However, we’re going to need those young prospects in the organization like Joseph and Poulin and Lagare to really step forward in the next 12-24 months.
 
I know a lot want to trade Malkin and Letang. I don't see it. Malkin is still good and carried this team when the roster was decimated with injuries. Letang, although frustrating at times, is still the best defenseman on the team. On top of that, I wouldn't think the Pens would get enough quality in return even though both are big time players.

I was good to see some assistant coaches move on and I wish they'd move on from Rutherford. The guy went away from what was successful in winning championships and just tinkers with the roster way too much. He's also handicapped the team with bad contracts such as Johnson and Tanev.

They need to do their best to remove some of the higher priced dead weight on the team and start the Jarry era.
 
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I guess I don’t see how a Hornqvist trade is very likely. He has a no-movement clause in his contract and would have to approve of any deal, meaning we’d have to get him to waive it. I think the likeliest deals are for Murray (potentially package Johnson with this as Dr vY mentioned) and Bjugstad, maybe even McCann as well (he’s a RFA, IIRC).

Agreed that one of the priorities should be defense, but the other big glaring hole is a 3C. If they keep McCann, he should be kept at LW.
 
Mike Sullivan is the guy who needs a pink slip. It is clear the team does not respond to him any longer. I know we are older and slower but we are no where near as poor as we played in our playoff series the last two seasons. This team has proven that it can rally around a new coach and system at least twice already. I don't know why they are so reluctant to move on from Sully.

Cutting all the assistants was a candy ass move. It hardly addresses the issues this team had. This team may not need a complete overhaul. It has issues, however. I think the biggest issue is the team needs a new man at the helm who can give this team the kick in the pants it needs to wake up and perform the way we know it can.
 
A lot of good stuff to think about in your posts guys....... some thoughts ......

- The last 2-3 years the teams that seemed to do the best had the best combination of speed, talent, physicality, structure and goaltending ....... I thought the Canadiens were faster then us, more physical, had better structure, and better goaltending ..... the only advantage that we had was talent and that alone was not nearly enough ..... we have to try and get better in some of those categories ...... by the way, I thought Julien did a great job coaching against the Pens ...... he knew that Crosby and Malkin's lines like to bring the puck into the offensive zone via the rush rather then dump and chase so he clogged the neutral zone to slow the rush down and had his big, and fairly mobile defensemen play very physical against our smaller wingers which got us off our game in the offensive zone ..... also our forecheck was not nearly effective enough ....... on the other end, Montreal got it in deep, and their forecheck was pretty effective especially against our 3rd line defense and they also effectively activated their defensemen in the offensive zone and we did not take advantage of that ....... when Lafferty was put in for McCann and didn't do well in Game 3, I thought the move Sullivan should have made in that game was keep McCann in as 3C and put Lafferty or Rodrigues in for Marleau ...... he could have also even considered scratching Sheary, putting Hornqvist on Sid's wing and Rodrigues on the 3rd line with McCann and Lafferty (that would have been a more physical and much faster 3rd line although less experienced).

- My main concerns about the Pens going into the Qualifying Round as I posted prior to the Canadiens series were the 3rd line forwards (along with depth at forward with Bjugstad and Simon out), 3rd line defense, and the power play ...... we were horrible in all those areas and it cost us big time (we weren't so good in some other areas as well .... our 1st two lines didn't score enough and our structure was not good enough, for example) ........ In addition, Guentzel and Dumoulin looked "rusty" coming back from injuries and weren't as effective as usual.

- IMO, we need to get bigger, faster, younger and play with more structure and intensity (like we did when Crosby was out during the regular season and won a lot of games) ...... we need a RW on Crosby's line, re-configure the 3rd line forwards (especially 3C) and 3rd defense pairing, and improve the power play ...... it's a complicated matter and how we do those things is above my pay grade, GMJR will have to figure it out ..... he will have to take into consideration the salary cap, what he has in the system already that might fill some of the holes, what improvement he feels players in the system can make before next season, what he has to give up in trades to get what he wants and how that affects the team, what to do with RFA's (they have 8) and UFA's (they have 3 and I expect all 3 to be gone ..... Schultz, Sheary, and Marleau) and whether he trades any core players (Crosby is untouchable, I don't expect Malkin to go anywhere because they need him and also because the return is unlikely to be good enough and besides they CAN'T trade Malkin unless he agrees because he has a full no movement clause in his contract and he likes it in Pittsburgh ..... Letang possibly could be traded but my gut feeling is that there is a 90-95% chance of him coming back although at some point we need to decrease his minutes a little bit probably by increasing Marino's a little ...... we have little depth on defense and Letang is still very good so I believe he will be back .... on the power play, we haven't adequately replaced Kessel on that first unit ...... Rust scored 9 PP goalies and 10 PP assists in the shortened regular season and playoffs combined so I might consider him on that 1st PP unit.

- As far as the goalies, both are RFA's and will demand a significant salary increase so they can't keep both goalies under the salary cap and of course even if they could, one will be dealt before the expansion draft after next season or be lost for nothing ...... with Murray's play over the last 3 seasons, his inconsistency, Jarry's improved play, potential bigger upside, and cheaper salary, I expect Murray to be dealt and Jarry and DeSmith likely to be the goalies next season although anything is possible ..... the media has already discussed the possibility of packaging Murray and Jack Johnson in a trade with an expected minimal return (maybe a mid to late round pick) ...... based on his performance the last 3 seasons, trading Murray alone is postulated to be worth a 2nd round pick and a prospect (but not a top prospect ...... maybe a 1st round pick is possible if a team really needs a goalie and believe a change in scenery and maybe a new goalie coach may rejuvenate Murray into a top goalie and I think that is possible) ...... Dr. VonYinzer is correct, Murray has had a problem for at least the last 2 seasons of poor positioning and playing too deep in the crease and why that wasn't changed at the start of this season is a puzzle to me ...... in the 2nd half of this season and playoffs he was playing better angles and positioning and it seemed to coincide with his overall improved performance ...... his movement hasn't been as precise either especially his power pushes ...... his post play has been a problem at times like in the 4th goal in Game 3 ...... IMO, his glove hand could be better but has improved ..... most of his problems are technical to me and thus should theoretically be correctable...... there are several ways to improve your glove hand (you can practice a lot of shots to the glove hand ..... you can play more aggressive angles and positioning ..... the deeper you play in the net the more open net there will be over the glove hand that you will have to cover and that is not good if your glove hand is a weakness, so playing out farther decreases the open net above the glove ..... you can change the position of your glove and also can change how you move your glove to catch the puck once the angle of the shot is seen .... the other thing that might help the glove hand is that there are different types of gloves with different angles of the pocket/web to the cuff (60/75/or 90 degree angles) and some are better suited for different goalies ...... by the way, had a goalie coach tell me at a clinic one time, that if the goalie is in the best angle and position on a shot, he/she will only need to move any part of their equipment at most 18" to make the save ...... illustrating how important angles/positioning/goalie movement is.

- It should be an interesting off season and we will have to see what GMJR comes up with ...... if the results are similar next season then I think Sullivan will be gone and Rutherford will likely "retire".
 
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