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OT: How do you fix the Penguins?

goalieman said:
A lot of good stuff to think about in your posts guys....... some thoughts ......

- The last 2-3 years the teams that seemed to do the best had the best combination of speed, talent, physicality, structure and goaltending ....... I thought the Canadiens were faster then us, more physical, had better structure, and better goaltending ..... the only advantage that we had was talent and that alone was not nearly enough ..... we have to try and get better in some of those categories ...... by the way, I thought Julien did a great job coaching against the Pens ...... he knew that Crosby and Malkin's lines like to bring the puck into the offensive zone via the rush rather then dump and chase so he clogged the neutral zone to slow the rush down and had his big, and fairly mobile defensemen play very physical against our smaller wingers which got us off our game in the offensive zone ..... also our forecheck was not nearly effective enough ....... on the other end, Montreal got it in deep, and their forecheck was pretty effective especially against our 3rd line defense and they also effectively activated their defensemen in the offensive zone and we did not take advantage of that ....... when Lafferty was put in for McCann and didn't do well in Game 3, I thought the move Sullivan should have made in that game was keep McCann in as 3C and put Lafferty or Rodrigues in for Marleau ...... he could have also even considered scratching Sheary, putting Hornqvist on Sid's wing and Rodrigues on the 3rd line with McCann and Lafferty (that would have been a more physical and much faster 3rd line although less experienced).

- My main concerns about the Pens going into the Qualifying Round as I posted prior to the Canadiens series were the 3rd line forwards (along with depth at forward with Bjugstad and Simon out), 3rd line defense, and the power play ...... we were horrible in all those areas and it cost us big time (we weren't so good in some other areas as well .... our 1st two lines didn't score enough and our structure was not good enough, for example) ........ In addition, Guentzel and Dumoulin looked "rusty" coming back from injuries and weren't as effective as usual.

- IMO, we need to get bigger, faster, younger and play with more structure and intensity (like we did when Crosby was out during the regular season and won a lot of games) ...... we need a RW on Crosby's line, re-configure the 3rd line forwards (especially 3C) and 3rd defense pairing, and improve the power play ...... it's a complicated matter and how we do those things is above my pay grade, GMJR will have to figure it out ..... he will have to take into consideration the salary cap, what he has in the system already that might fill some of the holes, what improvement he feels players in the system can make before next season, what he has to give up in trades to get what he wants and how that affects the team, what to do with RFA's (they have 8) and UFA's (they have 3 and I expect all 3 to be gone ..... Schultz, Sheary, and Marleau) and whether he trades any core players (Crosby is untouchable, I don't expect Malkin to go anywhere because they need him and also because the return is unlikely to be good enough and besides they CAN'T trade Malkin unless he agrees because he has a full no movement clause in his contract and he likes it in Pittsburgh ..... Letang possibly could be traded but my gut feeling is that there is a 90-95% chance of him coming back although at some point we need to decrease his minutes a little bit probably by increasing Marino's a little ...... we have little depth on defense and Letang is still very good so I believe he will be back .... on the power play, we haven't adequately replaced Kessel on that first unit ...... Rust scored 9 PP goalies and 10 PP assists in the shortened regular season and playoffs combined so I might consider him on that 1st PP unit.

- As far as the goalies, both are RFA's and will demand a significant salary increase so they can't keep both goalies under the salary cap and of course even if they could, one will be dealt before the expansion draft after next season or be lost for nothing ...... with Murray's play over the last 3 seasons, his inconsistency, Jarry's improved play, potential bigger upside, and cheaper salary, I expect Murray to be dealt and Jarry and DeSmith likely to be the goalies next season although anything is possible ..... the media has already discussed the possibility of packaging Murray and Jack Johnson in a trade with an expected minimal return (maybe a mid to late round pick) ...... based on his performance the last 3 seasons, trading Murray alone is postulated to be worth a 2nd round pick and a prospect (but not a top prospect ...... maybe a 1st round pick is possible if a team really needs a goalie and believe a change in scenery and maybe a new goalie coach may rejuvenate Murray into a top goalie and I think that is possible) ...... Dr. VonYinzer is correct, Murray has had a problem for at least the last 2 seasons of poor positioning and playing too deep in the crease and why that wasn't changed at the start of this season is a puzzle to me ...... in the 2nd half of this season and playoffs he was playing better angles and positioning and it seemed to coincide with his overall improved performance ...... his movement hasn't been as precise either especially his power pushes ...... his post play has been a problem at times like in the 4th goal in Game 3 ...... IMO, his glove hand could be better but has improved ..... most of his problems are technical to me and thus should be correctable...... there are several ways to improve your glove hand (you can practice a lot of shots to the glove hand ..... you can play more aggressive angles and positioning ..... the deeper you play in the net the more open net there will be over the glove hand that you will have to cover and that is not good if your glove hand is a weakness, so playing out farther decreases the open net above the glove ..... you can change the position of your glove and also can change how you move your glove to catch the puck once the angle of the shot is seen .... the other thing that might help the glove hand is that there are different types of gloves with different angles of the pocket/web to the cuff (60/75/or 90 degree angles) and some are better suited for different goalies ...... by the way, had a goalie coach tell me at a clinic one time, that if the goalie is in the best angle and position on a shot, he/she will only need to move any part of their equipment at most 18" to make the save ...... illustrating how important angles/positioning/goalie movement is.

- It should be an interesting off season and we will have to see what GMJR comes up with ...... if the results are similar next season then I think Sullivan will be gone and Rutherford will likely "retire".
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Good post, agree with most of it. A few things I’ve been thinking of that goes along with your post,

• I have a gut feeling that McCann’s future with the team depends on how they feel about where Poulin’s at. I think he’s the most NHL-ready among him, Legare, and Joseph. If they think he still needs a year, I think they resign McCann.
• I think an interesting trade destination for Murray would be Colorado. They’ve been rumored to have interest in him in the past. Perhaps Murray, Johnson, and a draft pick would be enough to receive, say, Andre Burakovsky. That’d allow the Guentzel/Crosby/Rust line to reunite with a strong second line of Zucker/Malkin/Burakovsky.
• As for a 3C, I think an interesting trade partner would be the Sharks. If they were willing to trade the 15th pick (not sure I would), they could use that and perhaps Bjugstad to trade for Tomas Hertl. The reason why I think SJ would be interested in this is that they do not have a first round pick and may be close to starting a full rebuild.

So, a four line rotation could look like this

Guentzel/Crosby/Rust
Zucker/Malkin/Burakovsky
McCann or Poulin/Hertl/Hornqvist
Aston-Reese or Simon/Blueger/Tanev

As for rebuilding the third defensive pairing, I have no idea where to start on that. It’s above my pay grade. ;)
 
Wow. Holy Hell DocVonTolstoy!!!!

Anyways..............the 1st of the Pens problems is they went belly up the past two post seasons. I cannot disassociate the two playoff collapses. They lost the same way to the same type of team. So there are major infrastructure problems. The problem with this, and the result of this are as follows:
These were supposed to be the last years of the windows, and basically we have been as far from a cup run as teams who didn't make the post season tournament. Think about it, some more post season success, hell another cup, Murray's value is over the top, and maybe you are positioned to move one of the chips for big return without looking back. But...that did not happen. What did, has been a 1-9 run in their last 10 post season games, not one scoring over 3 goals. Okay, so what we know that, you keep repeating this. But the big problem leading to where we are are as follows:

1) The Pens (Rutherford) gave up A TON of assets to make deep playoff runs and they haven't, which has gutted their prospects. So in the effort to get "younger", the Pens are limited on how to do this. Jake Guentzel was a find indeed in rd 3. John Marino and Bryan Rust's were gift's that dropped into the Pens hands. That isn't always going to happen. There is ONE 1st and ONE 2nd rd pick right now in the system in Poulin and Legere. There were so many wasted assets on poor trades that just didn't make sense. So it is hard to "get younger" without trading. Or eventually they will, but it will take bottoming out.

2) The Pens, while spending to the cap and have ownership committed to winning (ie not Bob Nutting) are still somewhat of a medium market in hockey. They need post season home games to spend to the cap. They budget at least 1 round of home games as a break even point. Last year they had 2 home games, this year, zero. So they have essentially 2 out of at least an expected minimum of 6 home post season gates, so they may not even spend to the cap this year.

3) OK, you got rid of assistants, but you still have the Head Coach and GM. I have been hard on this since 2018, the GM and Coach often seem not to be in synch. The GM and goes out and makes moves, the coach doesn't use them. The result is the Shero:Bylsma:Iginla Postulate of "okay coach, here's your guy, figure out how to use him." Trading for Ryan Reaves, who I can't understand is more than good enough to be 4th liner on this team yet Sully wouldn't play him. That gave up a young bottom 6, affordable, effective Center in Oskar Sundquist and a #1. The acquisition of Derek Brassard who just didn't fit in here cost them a #1, a #2, Ian Cole, who weirdly the HC didn't like. The signing of Jack Johnson which was a curious fit from the start, so much that Sully didn't even start him in last year's playoffs and then this year, even worse he got as many minutes as Sid did in Game 4 against the Habs. The Zucker deal, which I liked, and still like, but the original deal was supposed to be Kessel, Jack Johnson to Minnesota for Zucker. When that fell through, Rutherford still pursued him, because likely the Guentzel injury and overpaid for him. Then there was the "Crankshaft" trade for Patrick Marleau for another 3rd rd pick on a team light on draft picks. Do you guys notice alot of implied and overt references to the Shero/Bylsma years at the end?? That is what this feels like.

4) So here we are........12 goals scored in their last 8 playoff games. The "core" now 33 or 34 years old. The same team bounced them in back to back playoff years. So what do you do? I have watched alot of these playoffs, especially the Eastern games with real interest. The games have been good. And the teams make me jealous of how they approach and play. On firing the assistant coaches Rutherford explained the team basically lacked fire and passion. The core is still here, the HC is still here, that is where the "leadership and passion" should be coming from. Not a Justin Schultz. Not a Jack Johnson. Not a Jared McCann. So how do things change? Can they change? Should we just resign our fate this is it? This is the end?

I don't know how this team competes in the Metro moving on. The thing is, the Pens don't have a 2021 1st rd pick at this point, so missing the playoffs next year is not an option. I know one thing, if I am ownership I am telling Jim Rutherford that "# 1 picks are now completely off the table" in any trade talks. The Pens remind me alot of the Rangers in the mid teens. Aging team, put together with the King, they made a run, but they weren't really Cup contenders, and in fact realized this, bit the bullet and finally not just held onto to #1 picks, but started accumulating high draft picks.

The rest of the Metro are getting better. I love the Hurricanes. I think the Blue Jackets now finally have learned to win in the post season and have a deep team. The Islanders have Barry Trotz and a deep, 4 line team. The Flyers have some nice talent and Carter Hart looks like the real deal. The Rangers are coming. I am still not sold on the Devils though, I think they were victims of having the #1 overall pick in years they weren't as strong as others, and well the Caps, I am sure the Caps will have new coaching by next year, but they are on the downward trend.

So what to do??
 
Rumors.................the Fan is reporting Evgeny Malkin suffered a severe elbow injury during the playoffs, so severe it will likely need surgery this offseason. So that might explain some of his issues. I still believe Sid was hurt, as evidenced he missed most of camp.
 
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Interesting stat line......

Vegas is 6-0
Fleury has a. 896 save %
Lehner has a .907 save %

Pens went 1-3 with Murray having a .914 and Jarry having a .927
Murray had a .906% save % last year in their sweep against the Isles.

Please, this is not meant to be a MM vs MAF debate, it is just meant to show how little offense the Pens have generated compared to other teams. I prefer a Cup winning goalie likely has a save % of around .920.......but even that with the Pens offense the past two years wouldn't have gotten it done.
 
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Excellent stuff, goalie man. There’s a lot to unpack there.

I first want to start with Pittsburgh’s need to attack off the rush because I think that impacted almost everything else.

Again, that brings me back to our offensive impotence on the blue line.

I don’t think that it is a case of the Crosby and Malkin lines refusing to dump the puck out of selfishness or stubbornness. That might be part of it, but another part of it is they know that there is no threat from the point even if they do retrieve the puck in to the corner.

What’s the point of dumping and chasing if there’s no one to cycle it to?

That means that Pittsburgh MUST attack off the rush because there are so few threats at the second level. That is also why, when Pittsburgh did dump and chase, Montreal just collapsed down on them in the corner. They were not at all afraid of the point shot.

As I said earlier, I just watch all these games in the bubble and you will see that a staple for every team is to get the puck into the corner, retrieve it, play it out to the point, and then look for a deflection or a rebound.

We don’t get enough of those compared to literally everyone else. It’s a glaring trouble spot to me.

Basically, our best (only?) hope to score on the back end is Letang and he is notoriously inaccurate with his shot.

Even if we just had one more guy back there who is remotely threatening to defenses, it would make an enormous difference. Marino might be that guy, but he first has to prove it.

This is also why again, it makes no sense to trade 58 because even if Marino is the guy that people think/hope he is, you still need another offensive threat back there to compete.

Hell, you still need another two or three offensive threats back there.

Where are the goals going to come from on that unit? Petterson? Dumoulin? Who?

Some always mistake this is some sort of undying love for Kris Letang. As if I am somehow blind to his shortcomings.

That’s completely wrong.

My insistence on keeping the team’s best defenseman is not born out of a love for Letang, it’s born out of the love for the Penguins.

Kris Letang is the very best defenseman in the history of the organization and he remains the team’s best defenseman.

So, no, I’m not trading away the team’s best defenseman whenever it is very clear the defense is the biggest problem spot on the team.

I said this before and I’ll say it again so that people understand it: Kris Letang had as many goals last year as the rest of the Penguins defensemen combined! They each had 15.

Now, if you take Marino’s six goals out of equation, that means that the other four defensemen combined for nine goals in the entire truncated season.

If you want to point to the number one trouble spot, there’s your answer.

Rutherford knows that as well, which is why he was so openly critical of Schultz, whom they were counting on to solve a lot of those issues.

Now, Rutherford did basically spare Jack Johnson (and by extension, himself) from criticism and JJ was arguably worse than Schultz.

There are no easy answers there but hopefully Joseph is ready to play and contribute. It would also be great if they could somehow luck into a prospect or two that no one is expecting to contribute. Otherwise, we’re probably looking at Ruhwedel or someone like that and honestly, that’s not quite good enough.
 
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Dr. von Yinzer said:
Excellent stuff, goalie man. There’s a lot to unpack there.

I first want to start with Pittsburgh’s need to attack off the rush because I think that impacted almost everything else.

Again, that brings me back to our offensive impotence on the blue line.

I don’t think that it is a case of the Crosby and Malkin lines refusing to dump the puck out of selfishness or stubbornness. That might be part of it, but another part of it is they know that there is no threat from the point even if they do retrieve the puck in to the corner.

What’s the point of dumping and chasing if there’s no one to cycle it to?

That means that Pittsburgh MUST attack off the rush because there are so few threats at the second level. That is also why, when Pittsburgh did dump and chase, Montreal just collapsed down on them in the corner. They were not at all afraid of the point shot.

As I said earlier, I just watch all these games in the bubble and you will see that a staple for every team is to get the puck into the corner, retrieve it, play it out to the point, and then look for a deflection or a rebound.

We don’t get enough of those compared to literally everyone else. It’s a glaring trouble spot to me.

Basically, our best (only?) hope to score on the back end is Letang and he is notoriously inaccurate with his shot.

Even if we just had one more guy back there who is remotely threatening to defenses, it would make an enormous difference. Marino might be that guy, but he first has to prove it.

This is also why again, it makes no sense to trade 58 because even if Marino is the guy that people think/hope he is, you still need another offensive threat back there to compete.

Hell, you still need another two or three offensive threats back there.

Where are the goals going to come from on that unit? Petterson? Dumoulin? Who?

Some always mistake this is some sort of undying love for Kris Letang. As if I am somehow blind to his shortcomings.

That’s completely wrong.

My insistence on keeping the team’s best defenseman is not born out of a love for Letang, it’s born out of the love for the Penguins.

Kris Letang is the very best defenseman in the history of the organization and he remains the team’s best defenseman.

So, no, I’m not trading away the team’s best defenseman whenever it is very clear the defense is the biggest problem spot on the team.

I said this before and I’ll say it again so that people understand it: Kris Letang had as many goals last year as the rest of the Penguins defensemen combined! They each had 15.

Now, if you take Marino’s six goals out of equation, that means that the other four defensemen combined for nine goals in the entire truncated season.

If you want to point to the number one trouble spot, there’s your answer.

Rutherford knows that as well, which is why he was so openly critical of Schultz, whom they were counting on to solve a lot of those issues.

Now, Rutherford did basically spare Jack Johnson (and by extension, himself) from criticism and JJ was arguably worse than Schultz.

There are no easy answers there but hopefully Joseph is ready to play and contribute. It would also be great if they could somehow luck into a prospect or two that no one is expecting to contribute. Otherwise, we’re probably looking at Ruhwedel or someone like that and honestly, that’s not quite good enough.
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Well when you surround Sid and Geno with 150lb wingers, how are you going to dump and retrieve pucks?
 
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Letang was a -2 in the playoffs this year and had a zero +/- for the season.

2019 playoffs, he was a -3.

For his career in the playoffs, he is only a plus 5.
So, this year (reg season) he was on the ice for as many goals against as for and in the playoffs was more likely to be scored on than score.

Make whatever narrative you want, but Letang’s stats haven’t taken a dip, they fell off of a cliff.
He is not the same player.

Funny how people mentioned we can trade him later and recoup some trade capital.

Later is now here and now the argument is we probably couldn’t get that much for him.

Do you think because maybe he isn’t as good as he once was? Of our core, he’s the only one we can really trade with his limited trade clause while the others are anchored by full no trade clauses.

He’s a riverboat gambler who breaks even at best when on the ice.

No thanks.

let someone take his contract.
 
I have been watching my share of the hockey playoffs as well. I am very impressed with the Islanders' team as a whole. Additionally, I watched Montreal lose to the Flyers 1-0 last night. Each team has great young talent that as a Pittsburgh fan, I am quite jealous of. Not to mention, both teams have some good strong and mobile defenseman that can actually get the puck on the net.

We are so weak overall as a roster after our top two centers who apparently were not healthy during this playoff. It is no wonder we average around a goal and a half a game in our last 12 or 13 playoff games.

Our best grinder is our best player. That is pretty sad. We never replaced guys like Chris Kunitz or Ian Cole. These were strong and physical players who would wack you and had no fear. Tanev is a Kunitz type but doesn't have the scoring touch.

I have been critical of Sully, just beause the effort seemed like it wasn't there the last two playoffs. That said, as flawed as the roster has become, maybe I shouldn't lay it all on him. Despite lacking size and strength at the forward spots, that is not the teams biggest weakness. It is clearly our defense.

We really don't have any defenseman that can join a rush and have the speed to get back except Letang. The rest of the guys are more or less stay at home guys who try to play D without getting out of position. It is clear watching other teams that this isn't good enough anymore. We need a guy like Paul Coffey more than anything else. Since one of them come around every 25 years or so, I don't know what the hell this team can do.

I know this: We can make all kinds of trades for top six wingers and offensive players,but, until we address the lack of offense coming from our defenseman, we will continue to average 1 goal a game should we even make the playoffs next season. Even Syd and Geno, who are both generational players, need help from the back end if we expect to be competitive in the playoffs going forward.
 
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Dan1911 said:
Letang was a -2 in the playoffs this year and had a zero +/- for the season.

2019 playoffs, he was a -3.

For his career in the playoffs, he is only a plus 5.
So, this year (reg season) he was on the ice for as many goals against as for and in the playoffs was more likely to be scored on than score.

Make whatever narrative you want, but Letang’s stats haven’t taken a dip, they fell off of a cliff.
He is not the same player.

Funny how people mentioned we can trade him later and recoup some trade capital.

Later is now here and now the argument is we probably couldn’t get that much for him.

Do you think because maybe he isn’t as good as he once was? Of our core, he’s the only one we can really trade with his limited trade clause while the others are anchored by full no trade clauses.

He’s a riverboat gambler who breaks even at best when on the ice.

No thanks.

let someone take his contract.
Click to expand...
I’m with you
He’s a moveable piece and we don’t need equal value - we need his salary gone
 
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SoufOaklin4Life said:
I’m with you
He’s a moveable piece and we don’t need equal value - we need his salary gone
Click to expand...

I think Letang is done, and unfortunately everyone else probably knows that too. He's not worth much on the trade market because of his salary, unless the Pens eat some. I'd consider that if they got something in exchange. Otherwise he's a pure salary dump and won't bring much in return.
 
Do you need a lot of offense from your defensemen if you don’t give up many goals?

Play a solid defensive game, and we have enough offense. Run a sieve out there on defense and Crosby, Malkin, and Guentzel aren’t enough offense. So we need MORE offense? Is that how we won with Crosby out? No. Everyone agrees we played a disciplined system and tightened up. Now we need to bring in more wheeler-dealers on D? No. Just the opposite.

take JJ, JS and KL off the D and bring in defensive minded dmen with positive plus/minus numbers At a fraction of their cost and we’d be better off.

I think some people are looking at the problem from the wrong perspective.
 
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recruitsreadtheseboards said:
Well when you surround Sid and Geno with 150lb wingers, how are you going to dump and retrieve pucks?
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Yeah, but they actually did get to a lot of those loose pucks. Sheary in particular played a LOT better than people are portraying things, IMHO.

He is certainly not a great player but he’s not a bad player at all. I’d definitely bring him back at the right number.

Look, I’d love to have four or five 6-4/225 pound wingers who can skate and create and score. However, there are not many such animals out there and what is out there is generally unavailable and/or very expensive.

Again, you have to be able to activate your defensemen all over the ice so that opposing defenses can’t just collapse down onto the one or two threats.

I watched the Chicago/Vegas game last night and on the Hawks’ first goal, Olli Maatta, of all people, made a gorgeous pass from below the goal line. He has played VERY well for the Hawks.

We all know that Maatta isn’t exactly Bobby Orr, but can you imagine Dumoulin or Petterson making that play?

No chance.

We need more offense from our blue line. There’s just no doubt about that. Until we get that, nothing else we do is really going to mean anything.

However, don’t take my word for it. Just watch the games in the bubble. Watch how literally every single team remaining plays. It’s low to high, low to high, and more low to high.

Occasionally, they get something off transition but when they don’t, they are going low to high. We don’t ever go low to high because there’s nothing high to go to. That is definitely the team’s primary problem. It’s not their only problem, to be sure. However, it is very obviously the Penguins’ primary problem.

So, what are all the fans’ solution for that massive problem? Naturally, they want to trade away the one guy who has consistently produced from back there.

Okay, I’ll play. Who are we going to replace him with? He’s our best offensive defenseman, he’s our best defensive defenseman, he’s on the number one power-play and he’s on the number one penalty kill.

You know, because he sucks. It’s always your shittiest, most overrated defensemen who play the most minutes and in all of the critical situations. That’s just common sense.

So who are we going to replace him with?

(Crickets.)

Seriously, who are we going to replace him with?

(More crickets.)

We just need to get rid of him because he made a bad turnover against the Islanders in 2019 and (like everyone else) he occasionally makes stupid plays on the ice.

Once we get rid of him all of our troubles will go magically go away.

Unreal.

It’s just fantasyland nonsense that is not rooted in reality. I’m sorry, it just isn’t.

That was true in 2013 when people wrongly wanted to get rid of him because they didn’t see his value. They were also wrong in 2014, 2015, 2017, 2018 and 2019 too. They are still wrong today.

Who knows, maybe Marino will supplant Letang as our number one defenseman and Letang will be overpaid for his role?

That would be AWESOME!

However, are you willing to gamble everything on that bet now? Marino had six goals this year.

People want to trade away this guy every single off-season and then the next year he goes and leads us in minutes again, and again, and again, and again…

Because that’s what happens with shitty players. They always lead their team in ice time every single year.

Super logical.

It’s not unreasonable to be loathe to trade away a future Hall of Fame defenseman. The radical position is held by the people who, even after all these years and all this amazing success, still can’t see his value or simply refuse to acknowledge it. These num-nums always want to get rid of The best defenseman in the franchise history and who is by any reasonable measure still the best defenseman on the team with no plan whatsoever for how to replace him.

Awesome plan.
 
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Dr. von Yinzer said:
Yeah, but they actually did get to a lot of those loose pucks. Sheary in particular played a LOT better than people are portraying things, IMHO.

He is certainly not a great player but he’s not a bad player at all. I’d definitely bring him back at the right number.

Look, I’d love to have four or five 6-4/225 pound wingers who can skate and create and score. However, there are not many such animals out there and what is out there is generally unavailable and/or very expensive.

Again, you have to be able to activate your defensemen all over the ice so that opposing defenses can’t just collapse down onto the one or two threats.

I watched the Chicago/Vegas game last night and on the Hawks’ first goal, Olli Maatta, of all people, made a gorgeous pass from below the goal line. He has played VERY well for the Hawks.

We all know that Maatta isn’t exactly Bobby Orr, but can you imagine Dumoulin or Petterson making that play?

No chance.

We need more offense from our blue line. There’s just no doubt about that. Until we get that, nothing else we do is really going to mean anything.

However, don’t take my word for it. Just watch the games in the bubble. Watch how literally every single team remaining plays. It’s low to high, low to high, and more low to high.

Occasionally, they get something off transition but when they don’t, they are going low to high. We don’t ever go low to high because there’s nothing high to go to. That is definitely the team’s primary problem. It’s not their only problem, to be sure. However, it is very obviously the Penguins’ primary problem.

So, what are all the fans’ solution for that massive problem? Naturally, they want to trade away the one guy who has consistently produced from back there.

Okay, I’ll play. Who are we going to replace him with? He’s our best offensive defenseman, he’s our best defensive defenseman, he’s on the number one power-play and he’s on the number one penalty kill.

You know, because he sucks. It’s always your shittiest, most overrated defensemen who play the most minutes and in all of the critical situations. That’s just common sense.

So who are we going to replace him with?

(Crickets.)

Seriously, who are we going to replace him with?

(More crickets.)

We just need to get rid of him because he made a bad turnover against the Islanders in 2019 and (like everyone else) he occasionally makes stupid plays on the ice.

Once we get rid of him all of our troubles will go magically go away.

Unreal.

It’s just fantasyland nonsense that is not rooted in reality. I’m sorry, it just isn’t.

People want to trade away this guy every single off-season and then the next year he goes and leads us in minutes again, and again, and again, and again…

Because that’s what happens with shitty players. They always lead their team in ice time every single year.

Super logical.

It’s not unreasonable to be loathe to trade away a future Hall of Fame defenseman. The radical position is held by the people who, even after all these years and all this amazing success, still can’t see his value or simply refuse to acknowledge it. These num-nums always want to get rid of The best defenseman in the franchise history and who is by any reasonable measure still the best defenseman on the team with no plan whatsoever for how to replace him.

Awesome plan.
Click to expand...
Some of us simply see he’s not good enough for his salary

And he hasn’t been for years .
He’s the 12th highest paid defensemen in the nhl-
And he’s simply damaged goods

you don’t begin to get younger and deeper by clutching desperately to an expensive older player -
Because he was great 6 years ago .

schultz is also garbage in the same way
We’ve made some bad decisions with our defense pieces the last few years -
It’s time to rip the bandaid off

I mean jack Johnson stinks but he’s paid Relative to his pairing level
 
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Dr. von Yinzer said:
Yeah, but they actually did get to a lot of those loose pucks. Sheary in particular played a LOT better than people are portraying things, IMHO.

He is certainly not a great player but he’s not a bad player at all. I’d definitely bring him back at the right number.

Look, I’d love to have four or five 6-4/225 pound wingers who can skate and create and score. However, there are not many such animals out there and what is out there is generally unavailable and/or very expensive.

Again, you have to be able to activate your defensemen all over the ice so that opposing defenses can’t just collapse down onto the one or two threats.

I watched the Chicago/Vegas game last night and on the Hawks’ first goal, Olli Maatta, of all people, made a gorgeous pass from below the goal line. He has played VERY well for the Hawks.

We all know that Maatta isn’t exactly Bobby Orr, but can you imagine Dumoulin or Petterson making that play?

No chance.

We need more offense from our blue line. There’s just no doubt about that. Until we get that, nothing else we do is really going to mean anything.

However, don’t take my word for it. Just watch the games in the bubble. Watch how literally every single team remaining plays. It’s low to high, low to high, and more low to high.

Occasionally, they get something off transition but when they don’t, they are going low to high. We don’t ever go low to high because there’s nothing high to go to. That is definitely the team’s primary problem. It’s not their only problem, to be sure. However, it is very obviously the Penguins’ primary problem.

So, what are all the fans’ solution for that massive problem? Naturally, they want to trade away the one guy who has consistently produced from back there.

Okay, I’ll play. Who are we going to replace him with? He’s our best offensive defenseman, he’s our best defensive defenseman, he’s on the number one power-play and he’s on the number one penalty kill.

You know, because he sucks. It’s always your shittiest, most overrated defensemen who play the most minutes and in all of the critical situations. That’s just common sense.

So who are we going to replace him with?

(Crickets.)

Seriously, who are we going to replace him with?

(More crickets.)

We just need to get rid of him because he made a bad turnover against the Islanders in 2019 and (like everyone else) he occasionally makes stupid plays on the ice.

Once we get rid of him all of our troubles will go magically go away.

Unreal.

It’s just fantasyland nonsense that is not rooted in reality. I’m sorry, it just isn’t.

That was true in 2013 when people wrongly wanted to get rid of him because they didn’t see his value. They were also wrong in 2014, 2015, 2017, 2018 and 2019 too. They are still wrong today.

Who knows, maybe Marino will supplant Letang as our number one defenseman and Letang will be overpaid for his role?

That would be AWESOME!

However, are you willing to gamble everything on that bet now? Marino had six goals this year.

People want to trade away this guy every single off-season and then the next year he goes and leads us in minutes again, and again, and again, and again…

Because that’s what happens with shitty players. They always lead their team in ice time every single year.

Super logical.

It’s not unreasonable to be loathe to trade away a future Hall of Fame defenseman. The radical position is held by the people who, even after all these years and all this amazing success, still can’t see his value or simply refuse to acknowledge it. These num-nums always want to get rid of The best defenseman in the franchise history and who is by any reasonable measure still the best defenseman on the team with no plan whatsoever for how to replace him.

Awesome plan.
Click to expand...
Reasonable comments. I would just add that when we did go low to high our guys do not get shots through or they simply miss the net. Not only that, but, when you watch these other games you see that there is always traffic in front of the net. We don't send people to the net with the exception of Hornqvuist. I can recall Price making many easy saves on the occasions that we did get shots on the net because we just don't get traffic in front of the goalie. We pretty much score off the rush and it is too hard to make a living playing that way because good playoff teams can clog it up and take away your speed.
 
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Pittisit4me said:
Reasonable comments. I would just add that when we did go low to high our guys do not get shots through or they simply miss the net. Not only that, but, when you watch these other games you see that there is always traffic in front of the net. We don't send people to the net with the exception of Hornqvuist. I can recall Price making many easy saves on the occasions that we did get shots on the net because we just don't get traffic in front of the goalie. We pretty much score off the rush and it is too hard to make a living playing that way because good playoff teams can clog it up and take away your speed.
Click to expand...

You made a good point ....... It doesn't matter in the NHL who is shooting from the point, the goalies are so good that if they see the puck, they will make the save a very high % of the time ...... you have to get traffic in front of the goalie to screen, deflect, or get goals off rebounds ...... Hornqvist is the one player we have that can do that ...... we need more players to get to the net ...... with our smaller wingers, that can be difficult ...... in Game 1 against Montreal, Sullivan/Recchi had Guentzel coming off major shoulder surgery as the player in front of the net on the power play ...... he almost got killed by those physical Canadiens defensemen and I think that was the last time Guentzel manned that position on the power play.
 
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Dr. von Yinzer said:
I see teams like Boston, Philadelphia, and Chicago and they have rebuilt their rosters with young talent.

For example, look at all the good young players Boston has surrounded Bergeron, Chara, Marchand, and Krejci with.

Those guys are as old or older than the Penguins’ core. However, Boston has also added really talented pieces like Pasternak, and McAvoy, and Krug, and Carlo, and Karally and Grzelyck. That makes a really big difference!

Philadelphia went through a few rough years there but they landed a tremendous young goaltender and tons of excellent young defensemen and now they’re ready to roll.

Personally, I don’t think they are yet good enough to beat either Tampa or Boston in a seven game series, but I also think they’re going to have the opportunity to prove me wrong, which is a credit to them.

I have been against trading away our top prospects and draft picks for the last few years now, because I could see this train coming.

I was very upset about trading Addison this past year. I saw him as a window extender.

However, that’s water over the dam now and we need to make sure that we are continuing to draft and develop good players going forward.

No more credit card mentality.

I think we are closer to being excellent again than most seem to realize right now. However, we’re going to need those young prospects in the organization like Joseph and Poulin and Lagare to really step forward in the next 12-24 months.
Click to expand...
The Pens have drafted too many foreign players that never materialized.

Read the scouting report on their top prospects. The vast majority of them are below average skaters.

There is no size or physicality in their drafts either.

Draft selection and development has been sorely lacking.

Sullivan (AND Sid) seem to like the Sheary and Simin types. Big mistake. Those are the players you don't want.
 
recruitsreadtheseboards said:
Well when you surround Sid and Geno with 150lb wingers, how are you going to dump and retrieve pucks?
Click to expand...
I often wondered what Malkin would look like playing with semi skilled, big, grinding wingers.

I envision lots of time in the offensive zone. Geno is a big, strong, physical presence. He can pick loose pucks and make quick decisions.
 
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The discussion on Letang is always interesting ...... these are just my opinions and I respect the opinions of others which may be different ...... He is not the same player as he was at 25 and I'm not adverse to trading him depending on the return, but I personally wouldn't get rid of him just as a salary dump ...... I think his value compared to his salary (7.25 million) is much better than Schultz (5.5 million) and Johnson (3.25 million), two third pairing defensemen who were bad (you could get two defensemen to take their place for under 1 million each) ...... those two should be dumped for both cap purposes and poor performance.

If Letang's salary is high compared to his production it is not by a large amount and I say that because I don't believe his production has fallen off drastically like some of you do ..... he wasn't good in the 4 playoff games but how many were ....... if you use +/- as the metric to evaluate Letang, you probably have a 50% chance of being wrong as it is a flawed metric ....... if you look at Letang's advanced stats from the regular season, they are overall good and are in general comparable to his average yearly stats over his career ....... he isn't perfect and admittedly his major negative stat was too many giveaways but overall by advanced metrics he played well this past season ...... Letang may be the 12th highest paid defenseman today (one or two more will pass his salary next year), but he also was 14th in scoring for defensemen (44 points in 61 games) and 11 of the 13 ahead of him played in more games ..... if Letang would have scored two more points, he would have been in the top 10 for defensemen in scoring.

In today's game, a big thing is puck possession ..... in the other teams end ! ........ that means most teams look for defensemen who are good skating, mobile, puck movers (and it really helps if they are physical as well) (Sullivan's system doesn't work well without them) that can get the puck out of their end by retrieving pucks and skating or passing them up to the forwards quickly and who help keep it in the opponents end by pinching/activating whenever they need to .... they also need to get pucks on net from the point with traffic in front hopefully ...... if most of your defensemen are OK in the defensive zone but not good puck movers or not good playing in the offensive zone, you are going to be playing in your end more then otherwise and you will be stifling players like Crosby and Malkin ...... my point is that Letang even though I think he has lost half a step in speed is still our best puck moving D-man ...... (also, being good in the offensive zone is not necessarily measured by how many points a D-man scores) ..... if we trade Letang, we would have to bring in at least 1 top 4 D-man to replace him IMO or maybe 2 (if you wanted to maybe move Pettersson to the 3rd line to strengthen it).

As for getting rid of Letang to dump his salary that is easier said then done ...... the majority of teams are going to be tight with the salary cap next season making a trade for us to dump his salary more difficult (he also has a modified no trade and no movement clause) ..... if traded for draft picks, we will likely have to retain a not insignificant part of his salary ...... if traded for players to a team with cap problems, we will likely have to take close to his salary back in new players and we aren't going to be receiving a D-man as good as him in return from that team leaving our defense really weak without other trades/acquisitions as above.

Again, I'm not against trading Letang if it makes sense and is a good hockey trade...... me thinks it is going to be an interesting off season.
 
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Problems.................................

The Pens are no longer built for "play the right way" like they did in 2016 and 2017. For one, the stars have lost a step. I am not saying they are slow, but no longer is Sid and Letang blowing by people, and no longer is Geno dangling through defenders.

The wingers, are fast. But they aren't Pavel Bure. Guentzel, Rust, Zucker, Sheary all can skate, all are as collectively physical as a gnat. Guentzel's particular strengths is an IQ, the ability to hide and find spaces and the pounce on chances. Rust has rounded into a decent scoring threat on what looked like a sure fire bottom 6 forward. I like Zucker, he kind of combines a bit of Guentzel and a bit of Rush. Sheary just is overkill and likely won't be resigned.

What to do? Hornquist has something this team desperately needs, that net front presence and warrior mentality, but he doesn't skate well enough (in the "play the right way") for this style.

No Problem, plug in Sammy Poulin. Sure. He's a Left handed shot. As is Guentzel, as is Zucker (and Horny and Geno and Sid)....this not as big of a deal as on the blue line, but if you are looking to inject something into the power play, this is another LH shot on a team dominated by LH shots.

The bottom six are problematic. I thought maybe going into these playoffs this was rectified. I was wrong (and so were the Penguins). Jared McCann really disappointed me. And we can see why he has bounced around, he is a classic case of one of those players who has alot of tools, but no toolbox. I am not sure I offer him much more than a qualifying RFA offer. I like Blueger, he is what he is. Affordable. Zach Aston Reese completely disappointed me, in a time where we needed a 4th line to bang people around, they skated like it was the Saturday afternoon public skate at Market Square rink at Christmas time. Lafferty played on game in the playoffs, but he has the size and skating the Pens need on the bottom 6. I'd like them to at least for a month, play the big kid (Agnello) on the 4th line and see what can happen.

Nick Bjugstad is Lonnie Chisenhall at a $4.2 million cap hit. If you can move him, you must. I don't know what you can get, but while he is a big body who in his limited time here, did seem to do well cycling the puck in the offensive zone, again he just mis fits.

What I think the Pens need to do...............with the forwards.......
Sheary gone. I can't believe Doc Von Y thought he played well. He didn't, and everytime someone opened a door in the Scotiabank Center, the accompanying breeze blew Sheary down. I would look to see what Jason Zucker or Bryan Rust could bring in return. Both are more than serviceable players, but I think the Pens need to get bigger.

Got to find a legit 3rd line Center. That is one of the top priorities, someone with some grit. Jared McCann has failed in this role. I wouldn't be surprised if McCann is moved. Got to find a role for Lafferty and again Agnello. At least try them whenever a new season resumes. ZAR is now out, and maybe explains his issues. But jeez, these guys were out for 5 months, why all these injuries and surgeries surface now??

Next...Defense, Goaltending and Direction...
 
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OKay. Easy Part Justin Schultz, gone. Here's a classic case of a guy the Pens likely should have moved a year early than hang on to him and have him a year too late. And I am sure if they knew Marino was going to be so good, they likely would have done just that. But he's gone. No need for any more post mortem.

Jack Johnson, either a buy out or if they can package him in a deal, but he never fit on this team, I don't know what Rutherford was thinking. Everyone assumes that we signed JJ because he was best buddies with Crosby, but let's also remember Jim Rutherford drafted Jack Johnson 3rd overall in that draft. So I think Rutherford likes him, but I also think Rutherford's comments after this playoffs where he did not blame JJ, was nothing more than not trying to diminish his trade value.

The condundrum.....Kris Letang. I am not enamored with him as some of you are. I think he is past his prime, his comments after last year's sweep about not changing his game still resonates this post season. His hi risk/hi reward style, well the rewards are less while the risk is still the same. Again, a big problem I have was this post season was last post season. And it played out pretty much exactly the same. You all know the definition of insanity, right? Well wouldn't trotting out essentially the same core group be that? Letang would be easiest to move. I am not sure what you would get back, and with the cap and worse, tighter purse strings, maybe not as many teams are open to take on that salary. But you have to at least kick the tires on a potential deal.

Sometimes the best player in a trade, does not always make it the best acquisition. Mark Recchi was the best player in the Rick Tocchet trade, but that worked out well.

However, and again, with these last two years, the Pens clock is ticking. Letang and Geno only have 2 years left on current contract. Next year (2021) the Pens don't have a 1st rd pick so they have to make the playoffs. The choices in Letang trade are a) making a really good hockey trade and b) start the rebuild/retool. Well because of the draft pick situation, you can't do it, and making a hockey trade would be difficult, so the best bet is to keep Letang.

As far as goaltending, well Matt Murray is gone. He has been subpar, which is a shame because he could have commanded. It is just a question of how to trade Murray and who. There are enough teams (Oilers for example) looking for a goalie who has had post season success. Maybe Ottawa could start rebuilding with him. But again, as much as we bagged on Murray, His post season save % over these last 2 years would win some series provided his high octane, high paid offensive players would you know, score once in awhile.

The Pens are going to have "play a different way" now. I am not sure Sully can teach this. They need to play more like Columbus or the Isles, play almost a delay (trap) and attack ferociously off of turnovers. Again, I don't know if "the core" has this in their DNA. I do know coaching needs to take over. Simple things like telling Sid, you are playing down low on the PP and I don't want to hear it. Finding a RH shot for one timers on the half wall. Understanding net front presence.

I don't know when next season commences, but I see some changes, I see some struggles and I see Sullivan getting replaced mid season.
 
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recruitsreadtheseboards said:
Again, another example of coach and GM not being on the same page.
Click to expand...
Rutherford understands the need for energy, grit and physicality.

Each defensive pairing needs someone strong on the boards and in front of the net.

Sullivan wants "skill".

Skill gets frustrated. Want does not.
 
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SoufOaklin4Life said:
With another expansion -I think they have to protect Jarry .
I disagree they have to move Murray - but like you said - if you get a good return - he’s moveable with Jarry and desmith Proven commodities
Click to expand...

True they don't absolutely have to move Murray or Jarry this year and I would love to see them keep both as they are the two best goalies in our system and several teams now are using 2 goalies almost equally (a 1A and 1B situation) and that would also give us another year to make sure Jarry is the real deal ..... but the realty is they are both RFA's who are going to be due for significant raises this year and we probably won't be able to keep both under the salary cap and we will lose one for nothing in the expansion draft if we keep both past the trading deadline next season ...... if they feel that Jarry is their long term goalie, then the only way they keep both goalies next season IMO is if Murray signs a one year contract with a minimal raise and then moves on as an UFA the next season knowing he will likely be taken by Seattle in the expansion draft but as an UFA would have some nice leverage in contract negotiations ........ this may actually be a good scenario for him ....... as far as the Penguins, the team in it's present state would be exceedingly unlikely to win a Stanley Cup next season ..... there are several flaws with this team that need to be addressed without losing too many assets in the process ...... we have few assets to make changes and Murray is one of them ..... I think they will try to trade him in the off season, whether they end up making a deal or not remains to be seen.
 
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SoufOaklin4Life said:
He’ll get replaced because nhl coaches are always expendable
Click to expand...
True... look at the other two teams of the decade in the NHL -- LA and Chicago. Both Daryl Sutter and Joel Quenneville were cast aside just a few years after winning the last of multiple Cups. The same could happen to Sully as early as next year.
 
People get emotional about players who have been here a long time. If the Pens traded for Letang two or three years ago, people wouldn't care if he was traded.

This team needs major changes. There isn't much in the minors and the difference isn't going to come with recycled ham n eggers. You're going to have to deal guys that have some value to get value in return. Geno is also fair game since return would be high.
 
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Gunga_Galunga said:
People get emotional about players who have been here a long time. If the Pens traded for Letang two or three years ago, people wouldn't care if he was traded.

This team needs major changes. There isn't much in the minors and the difference isn't going to come with recycled ham n eggers. You're going to have to deal guys that have some value to get value in return. Geno is also fair game since return would be high.
Click to expand...
Agree
After these last two season swoons

It’s time to start moving any non-sid assets and restocking the shelves
 
SoufOaklin4Life said:
Agree
After these last two season swoons

It’s time to start moving any non-sid assets and restocking the shelves
Click to expand...
I would trade Sid. He has had too much say about the team (Simon, Sheary and Johnson) is getting old and is concussion prone. He would bring the greatest return.

Malkin is the better player. Brings the puck out of the defensive zone and can physically take over a game, if not left with whatever wingers Sid doesn't want on any particular day.

Team players better when one of them is out. Would like Geno play where he would like on the power play. You know - the position Sid claims.

Sid gets what he gets by out working people. That works in the regular season, not so much in the post season where everyone works.
 
gary2 said:
I would trade Sid. He has had too much say about the team (Simon, Sheary and Johnson) is getting old and is concussion prone. He would bring the greatest return.

Malkin is the better player. Brings the puck out of the defensive zone and can physically take over a game, if not left with whatever wingers Sid doesn't want on any particular day.

Team players better when one of them is out. Would like Geno play where he would like on the power play. You know - the position Sid claims.

Sid gets what he gets by out working people. That works in the regular season, not so much in the post season where everyone works.
Click to expand...
We very much disagree

Sid plays the full ice all the time
Malkin - prone to sulking and going brain dead .

and Malkin has almost always been given the higher quality wingers - Because he needs them
 
Souf

you mentioned keeping both goalies, an interesting idea, but I think the numbers just won’t work. using Desmith and Jarry and drafting their goalie of the future With a pick from trading MM’s rights could work. The rumor of Murray wanting 8mil and years is too much. Trading his rights could get us a nice young keeper for our developmental ranks.
 
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