OT: Marte and the Pirates

[Fk_Pitt]

so first off, I’m a Marte fan. Now that it’s out of the way...

Why is it that people meet the criticism that he receives in Pittsburgh with such disdain? Why is a guy who is 30 and still struggles with the mental and fundamental part of the game beyond criticism?

I don’t know why people think Marte is treated unfairly, but in regards to the people who are frustrated with him, I think they are frustrated because he came here with more tools than the beloved Cutch, but he’s underachieved and will not have the success that McCutchen had. Maybe thats not fair? Maybe expectations were just too high? Maybe he has attention deficit disorder. And if he does, he should be credited for being as good as he is.

 

[maxxwell]

I don’t see the disdain. He seems to get a lot of criticism. Maybe you’ve hit on something with the mental side, Hurdle was suggesting something to that effect after the Monday gaffes. He is frustrating in that he clearly hasn’t realized his vast potential but he’s still a very good player. Bucs have a decision to make with him, although it needn’t be made this month. Not sure there is an adequate replacement for CF but if you’re not serious about contending I guess that doesn’t matter much.

 

[pittdan77]

so first off, I’m a Marte fan. Now that it’s out of the way...

Why is it that people meet the criticism that he receives in Pittsburgh with such disdain? Why is a guy who is 30 and still struggles with the mental and fundamental part of the game beyond criticism?

I don’t know why people think Marte is treated unfairly, but in regards to the people who are frustrated with him, I think they are frustrated because he came here with more tools than the beloved Cutch, but he’s underachieved and will not have the success that McCutchen had. Maybe thats not fair? Maybe expectations were just too high? Maybe he has attention deficit disorder. And if he does, he should be credited for being as good as he is.

It's one of the greatest of all Pittsburgh traditions. Remember Dave Parker and Bobby Bonilla? There's always that one guy. Sometimes it's Glenn Wilson and well deserved. But it's always someone.

 

[Fk_Pitt]

It's one of the greatest of all Pittsburgh traditions. Remember Dave Parker and Bobby Bonilla? There's always that one guy. Sometimes it's Glenn Wilson and well deserved. But it's always someone.

Yeah. Dave Parker actually popped into my head as I composed the thread. One of the first things I remember as a young pirate fan was the 5 year/5 million contract that Parker signed. He was I believe the first player to make $1 million per year. It was after that Pirate fans turned on him and he could not live up to expectations.

 

[pittdan77]

Yeah. Dave Parker actually popped into my head as I composed the thread. One of the first things I remember as a young pirate fan was the 5 year/5 million contract that Parker signed. He was I believe the first player to make $1 million per year. It was after that Pirate fans turned on him and he could not live up to expectations.

Yeah, Marge Schott had a similar opinion on that contract when he moved over to the Reds. Guy had idiots lobbing D-cells at him.

 

[Burgh15]

Marte is a solid player, but everyone wants him to be more, so anything below those expectations is going to result in criticism. Those who think he's treated unfairly may just realize who he is as a player. But for a guy who should be one of the stars in this city, I feel like I know nothing about him as a person.

 

[FreeportPanther]

Marte is a solid player, but everyone wants him to be more, so anything below those expectations is going to result in criticism. Those who think he's treated unfairly may just realize who he is as a player. But for a guy who should be one of the stars in this city, I feel like I know nothing about him as a person.

Part of it may be his education.
He is from the Dominican Republic, mother died when he was 9 years old, raised by his grandmother.
I doubt the school system in the Dominican is anything to crow about, so he could well have some learning disability type issues.
It is telling that after this long in the States, he still doesn't speak English.
From what I can see, he seems to have trouble concentrating or focusing. That would explain some of the bone headed plays in the field or on the bases. He seems to be better at the plate with discipline and lunging at those low outside pitches.

No doubting his physical skills. He's chiseled, has a plus arm and great speed for a CF.

He's built like Clemente in a way, but obviously nothing like him in performance and demeanor.
Still a very good ball player, just not a superstar which many hoped he would become.

 

[Dointhatrag]

He just seems t have bad judgement on the field from time to time, whether its trying to steal or stretch singles into doubles and fielding gaffes. Maybe its inherent or maybe its too much of the performance enhancing drugs he was suspended for. I like him but he gets less of a free pas after being suspended.

 

[FreeportPanther]

He just seems t have bad judgement on the field from time to time, whether its trying to steal or stretch singles into doubles and fielding gaffes. Maybe its inherent or maybe its too much of the performance enhancing drugs he was suspended for. I like him but he gets less of a free pas after being suspended.

Well one thing he's criticized for, he leads the team in grounding into double plays with 14.
Pretty weird for the fastest player on the team.
He's criticized for not going all out.
That's where I see a lack of concentration that comes across as dogging.

 

[rmf05]

It's one of the greatest of all Pittsburgh traditions. Remember Dave Parker and Bobby Bonilla? There's always that one guy. Sometimes it's Glenn Wilson and well deserved. But it's always someone.

Bobby Bonilla was beloved up until he and his agent admitted in public that he was not returning to the Pirates. That is when everyone started in with the booing. As for Parker. He signed that big deal the drew criticism from throughout the baseball world but it wasn't until his play tanked that it got bad. It also hurt that the team tanked around him as did the great Steeler teams just as tens of thousands were getting tossed out of the mills. On top of that, fans found out he and several other Bucs were coke heads in the drug trials. Man, were those ugly days.

 

[Zeldas Open Roof]

because he is an idiot. you guys are over thinking this. great athlete but brain dead. it's not changing, he's not gonna figure it out. this is a guy a few years ago that the pirates had to have manny sanguillen meet with to tell him to quit his off field antics (take that as you may).

he's a decent player, no more or no less. for every good play he makes, he'll make a bone headed one. it's why he never elevated his game to match his talents. it is what it is..

 

[NTOP]

He just seems t have bad judgement on the field from time to time, whether its trying to steal or stretch singles into doubles and fielding gaffes. Maybe its inherent or maybe its too much of the performance enhancing drugs he was suspended for. I like him but he gets less of a free pas after being suspended.

He's goofy, always clowning around. That doesn't bother me...the mental lapses do. Refusing a HBP??? Weird.
And Dickerson is horrible in left.

 

[FreeportPanther]

He's goofy, always clowning around. That doesn't bother me...the mental lapses do. Refusing a HBP??? Weird.
And Dickerson is horrible in left.

Gold glove LF last season.
Talk about a mental lapse!

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Well there ya go. Just as I predicted/feared/hoped....1-5 out of the gate. They are not contenders.

I know there are fanboys in the media and fans generally have been abused by this franchise but....it is time for a wake up and reality dose.

The Pirates will not go out on the market and pay $15M annual/$100 overall (this is on the low side) to get a starting pitcher in the offseason.

Do you trust this staff to rebound for next year? I sure don't. Where is the pitching going to come from?

Yeah, they will try and move Melky Cabrera, Corey Dickerson, Jordan Lyles, but they aren't getting big pieces for those guys.

Starling Marte and Felipe Vasquez value will never, ever be higher. And while they have club friendly contracts, that is also what makes them attractive, not just to contenders, but really any team.

Marte, he is the ultimate giveth and taketh away player. We have seen all of this, he is what he is, he ain't changing. But he is still a helluva player, and maybe on a better team, with more serious players, and better leadership (hi Clint "shower it off" Hurdle, I am looking at you)...he improves.

Then there is Vasquez. He is at the top his game and MLB relievers. He still has upside. He's a lefty. He is signed for 2 more years after this. But....relievers seem like they are fragile, in a moment they can lose it or have arm trouble. It would be so Pirate like to hold on to Vasquez and Vasquez blows out an elbow.

I'd move Vasquez to LAD for that catcher, Dustin May and another guy. I'd let the bidding for Marte to start immediately. There are alot of teams in it that Marte can upgrade their OF and lineup, and also he is not a rental. He should command some top talent.

It's time. They can't fence sit. One other thing, I'd get rid of everyone, but it is time for Hurdle and Searage to go.

 

[maxxwell]

A few responses: Marte can now speak respectable English, he did an interview earlier in the year without the interpreter and sounded decent. I think some of the DPs are a result of hitting the ball sharply, which he does frequently, although no doubt some are a result of not running hard enough. However he supposedly leads the Majors in infield hits over the last several years which reflects hustle, at least when a hit is on the line. I never heard of any off field antics and have no idea what that refers to.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

Marte can now speak respectable English

I was going to post that. He's just too self-conscious to speak English in public very often. As someone who spent time in Mexico while knowing a little bit of Spanish I get it completely. He's worried that if he talks he's going to accidentally say something stupid. So generally speaking he'd rather not take the chance.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

He is signed for 2 more years after this.

And his contract has two reasonable team options after that. So if he continues to pitch the way he has the past several seasons a team can have him on a good deal for four years, not two.

Which not only makes his trade value that much higher, but it also makes it that much less likely that he gets traded.

 

[HopeandChangeforAntoons]

I just think a lot of fans still compare him to the outsized expectation of the player that they hoped Marte the prospect would become. So in frustration, they fixate on his "lack of fundamentals", base running blunders and defensive lapses.

Of course, the defensive lapses are easier to remember than the catches his speed allows him to make.

The language barrier, also makes him an easier target, as opposed to Cutch who was such personality that fans were hesitant to criticize him as a player.

I think Marte’s biggest fault is that he is too aggressive in his approach at the plate. He swings at a high percentage of pitches out of the zone and doesn't draw walks. That is more acceptable for a power hitter, but for Marte, it makes his best asset - speed - less of an offensive weapon.

 

[Somerset Panther]

so first off, I’m a Marte fan. Now that it’s out of the way...

Why is it that people meet the criticism that he receives in Pittsburgh with such disdain? Why is a guy who is 30 and still struggles with the mental and fundamental part of the game beyond criticism?

I don’t know why people think Marte is treated unfairly, but in regards to the people who are frustrated with him, I think they are frustrated because he came here with more tools than the beloved Cutch, but he’s underachieved and will not have the success that McCutchen had. Maybe thats not fair? Maybe expectations were just too high? Maybe he has attention deficit disorder. And if he does, he should be credited for being as good as he is.

Marte has five tools. IMO he is physically superior to Cutch, but to
Me does not have the inner drive to be great. Swing at a ball no where near the plate, meh.....fail to hustle anywhere on the field....meh. Forget how many outs there are and run into an out...meh. I get the feeling baseball
Is not very important to him. He’s athletically gifted enough to be a good player without putting forth maximum effort some of the time. I think the most exciting play for the Pirates right now is Marte running for a triple or going first to home. Thrilling to see him turn on the jets. Hopefully he can raise his own standard and get close to his potential. He’s thirty now so he’s set in his way.

 

[FreeportPanther]

And his contract has two reasonable team options after that. So if he continues to pitch the way he has the past several seasons a team can have him on a good deal for four years, not two.

Which not only makes his trade value that much higher, but it also makes it that much less likely that he gets traded.

What value does he have to a team going nowhere?
His only value to this team at this time is to bring back multiple players with high upside.

 

[Fk_Pitt]

Marte has five tools. IMO he is physically superior to Cutch, but to
Me does not have the inner drive to be great. Swing at a ball no where near the plate, meh.....fail to hustle anywhere on the field....meh. Forget how many outs there are and run into an out...meh. I get the feeling baseball
Is not very important to him. He’s athletically gifted enough to be a good player without putting forth maximum effort some of the time. I think the most exciting play for the Pirates right now is Marte running for a triple or going first to home. Thrilling to see him turn on the jets. Hopefully he can raise his own standard and get close to his potential. He’s thirty now so he’s set in his way.

Heard during the broadcast the other day that he is like the 23rd most difficult player to strike out in the league. So his plate discipline may be an example of people being overly critical of him when it’s not warranted. But his fundamentals are what’s frustrating. Missing the cutoff man. Throwing to the wrong base. Forgetting how many outs there are. Not running out ground balls. These, at least to me are all fair criticisms. And this doesn’t even address a failed drug test.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

What value does he have to a team going nowhere?

The same as it is to every other team.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

And his contract has two reasonable team options after that. So if he continues to pitch the way he has the past several seasons a team can have him on a good deal for four years, not two.

Which not only makes his trade value that much higher, but it also makes it that much less likely that he gets traded.

Are you sure about that? I wouldn't think so. But an ace closer is much more valuable to a contender. However, closers have never been more valuable than in an age where starters never finish games.

 

[Delpanther]

Well there ya go. Just as I predicted/feared/hoped....1-5 out of the gate. They are not contenders.

I know there are fanboys in the media and fans generally have been abused by this franchise but....it is time for a wake up and reality dose.

The Pirates will not go out on the market and pay $15M annual/$100 overall (this is on the low side) to get a starting pitcher in the offseason.

Do you trust this staff to rebound for next year? I sure don't. Where is the pitching going to come from?

Yeah, they will try and move Melky Cabrera, Corey Dickerson, Jordan Lyles, but they aren't getting big pieces for those guys.

Starling Marte and Felipe Vasquez value will never, ever be higher. And while they have club friendly contracts, that is also what makes them attractive, not just to contenders, but really any team.

Marte, he is the ultimate giveth and taketh away player. We have seen all of this, he is what he is, he ain't changing. But he is still a helluva player, and maybe on a better team, with more serious players, and better leadership (hi Clint "shower it off" Hurdle, I am looking at you)...he improves.

Then there is Vasquez. He is at the top his game and MLB relievers. He still has upside. He's a lefty. He is signed for 2 more years after this. But....relievers seem like they are fragile, in a moment they can lose it or have arm trouble. It would be so Pirate like to hold on to Vasquez and Vasquez blows out an elbow.

I'd move Vasquez to LAD for that catcher, Dustin May and another guy. I'd let the bidding for Marte to start immediately. There are alot of teams in it that Marte can upgrade their OF and lineup, and also he is not a rental. He should command some top talent.

It's time. They can't fence sit. One other thing, I'd get rid of everyone, but it is time for Hurdle and Searage to go.

You do understand that the Pirates' model is to "pretend" to contend" and in that model you neither buy nor sell aggressively UNLESS you can save big money in doing so. The model dictates they sit on their hands, dumpster dive and play checkers with fringe players. That's it. I hope they lose every game!

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

You do understand that the Pirates' model is to "pretend" to contend" and in that model you neither buy nor sell aggressively UNLESS you can save big money in doing so. The model dictates they sit on their hands, dumpster dive and play checkers with fringe players. That's it. I hope they lose every game!

Yep. I completely understand. Not going to argue this.

 

[HopeandChangeforAntoons]

Heard during the broadcast the other day that he is like the 23rd most difficult player to strike out in the league. So his plate discipline may be an example of people being overly critical of him when it’s not warranted. But his fundamentals are what’s frustrating. Missing the cutoff man. Throwing to the wrong base. Forgetting how many outs there are. Not running out ground balls. These, at least to me are all fair criticisms. And this doesn’t even address a failed drug test.

I don't know the source of that info, but I doubt it. Marte doesn't have a terrible strike out rate, but even on his team Cabrera and Newman are much harder to K.

Besides, just because he isn't striking out that doesn't mean he doesn't swing at bad pitches. Marte is actually decent at getting contact on pitches out of the zone, but is it GOOD contact? He is one of the more heavily tilted groundball hitters in baseball. If he is doing that with pitches off the plate that he can't square, then it might be why he hits into so many double plays.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Marte's a really good player. I am not sure who is arguing against this. My point, he would be a valued piece to alot of teams that could command some good return.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

I am not sure people are grasping the difficult predicament this franchise is in. One, aside from the "Nutting's Cheap" crap (and yes that is true), to try and truly build a contender, and by this I mean a team contending for 95 wins, Division Championship and beyond, is really difficult for them. First off, Del is right, their goal seems to be an 81-82 win team, create the false illusion of a contender, hope for some things to break your way to get to 87 wins, hope others around you fall and contend for a WC spot. Seriously, that is the goal it seems and I believe has been stated by NH in the past.

But that is sort of like playing the lottery. The problem is, this franchise has been conning people for years, and their rhetoric is mostly BS. People are tired of it, and despite their hot streak, they still weren't filling the place. People are tired. So what do they do?

In addition, say they put Vasquez and Marte on the block, do you trust Huntington to make a good trade? Problem is, he is going to look for a quick fix, instead of shooting high, just like he did with Cole and Cutch. Especially Cole, he should have gotten at least one of Houston's best prospects, not merely ones closest to contribute.

On that note, they (Nutting) should fire the lot. But he is not going to do this between now and the end of the month. A new GM and staff may take a more long term look, look at getting the highest return instead of the most immediate. So really, maybe it is best to hold onto these two until this offseason. I would put Vasquez out there, just to see if someone "blows you away" with an offer. But perhaps, maybe it is best to dump Neal, Clint, Coonelly, Searage, etc....and start over this offseason.

 

[pittdan77]

Bobby Bonilla was beloved up until he and his agent admitted in public that he was not returning to the Pirates. That is when everyone started in with the booing. As for Parker. He signed that big deal the drew criticism from throughout the baseball world but it wasn't until his play tanked that it got bad. It also hurt that the team tanked around him as did the great Steeler teams just as tens of thousands were getting tossed out of the mills. On top of that, fans found out he and several other Bucs were coke heads in the drug trials. Man, were those ugly days.

Never said there weren't legitimate reasons, sometimes. But it is a great Pittsburgh tradition. Probably right up there with loving the Steelers backup QB until he actually plays.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

Are you sure about that? I wouldn't think so.

Am I sure about what? That his contract has two more years plus two team option years remaining? Yeah, I'm sure about that. Or the fact that he has two guaranteed years remaining at a (relatively) low salary and then two team option years after that again at relatively low salaries makes his trade value much higher? Again, I'm sure about that. Or the fact that his remaining contract actually makes him less likely to get traded? Again, I'm sure about that one too. Why? Because first off, the Pirates are under no real financial pressure to deal him, because his contract is so reasonable versus his production. Secondly, because the price for a player like him with a contract like his is going to be really, really high, there will be fewer teams willing to pay the price that the Pirates ought to be asking for. And thirdly, because his contract likely has four more seasons to go the Pirates can keep him this season and he would still have very high value in the off season this year. And at the trade deadline next year. And in the off season after next year. And at the trade deadline the year after that. And in the off season after that year. And at the trade deadline the season after that. And in the off season the year after that. And probably at the trade deadline the season after that too.

In other words, the contract makes it so that he is going to remain a valuable trade chip for several years to come. So you have a guy who is very valuable who is going to demand a large return that many teams won't be able to meet who will still retain almost all of that value if they wait until later to trade him. Seems pretty obvious that means that he is unlikely to be traded.

Note, not definitely won't be traded. Just less likely to be. If I were running the show I'd be soliciting offers, but people would know that if they didn't make a huge offer they might as well save their breath.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Am I sure about what? That his contract has two more years plus two team option years remaining? Yeah, I'm sure about that. Or the fact that he has two guaranteed years remaining at a (relatively) low salary and then two team option years after that again at relatively low salaries makes his trade value much higher? Again, I'm sure about that. Or the fact that his remaining contract actually makes him less likely to get traded? Again, I'm sure about that one too. Why? Because first off, the Pirates are under no real financial pressure to deal him, because his contract is so reasonable versus his production. Secondly, because the price for a player like him with a contract like his is going to be really, really high, there will be fewer teams willing to pay the price that the Pirates ought to be asking for. And thirdly, because his contract likely has four more seasons to go the Pirates can keep him this season and he would still have very high value in the off season this year. And at the trade deadline next year. And in the off season after next year. And at the trade deadline the year after that. And in the off season after that year. And at the trade deadline the season after that. And in the off season the year after that. And probably at the trade deadline the season after that too.

In other words, the contract makes it so that he is going to remain a valuable trade chip for several years to come. So you have a guy who is very valuable who is going to demand a large return that many teams won't be able to meet who will still retain almost all of that value if they wait until later to trade him. Seems pretty obvious that means that he is unlikely to be traded.

Note, not definitely won't be traded. Just less likely to be. If I were running the show I'd be soliciting offers, but people would know that if they didn't make a huge offer they might as well save their breath.

Don't be a friggin snot. I just asked, wasn't questioning the savant on this board Rainman. I was under the assumption he was under control for 2 more years. I see has club options of $10M each for 2022 and 2023, which surprised me.

Still again, relievers are fickle. How many relievers are at the very top of their game for 5 years in a row? They come and go. I mean, maybe he is the next Chapman, maybe the next Rivera, but maybe the next Eric Gagne.

I am just saying, he could, should command alot in return. That being said, with that contract, he is also eminently tradeable this offseason too, and maybe it is best to wait to move him then, hopefully with another GM in charge.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

Don't be a friggin snot. I just asked, wasn't questioning the savant on this board Rainman.

You ask a semi-ambiguous question so I answer what I think your possible questions are, and that makes me a snot. Got it.

You're the best.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

That being said, with that contract, he is also eminently tradeable this offseason too, and maybe it is best to wait to move him then, hopefully with another GM in charge.

I really don't think the GM is the problem. I mean maybe a part of it, but no where near the whole problem or even the biggest part of the problem. I really think the reason that Huntington tries to get back "major league ready players" rather than the best prospects possible is because that's what the owner wants him to do. It keeps the team from bottoming out and it generally keeps the record looking respectable, so that if lightning does strike they can make the playoffs. If you're a 65 win team and lightning strikes and you win 72 no one cares.

As long as the owner wants the team run a certain way that's how it's going to be done no matter who the GM is. I'd like to see them (and I know you would too) get rid of the whole minor league development staff and completely overhaul that part of the business. But that's probably just a dream.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

You ask a semi-ambiguous question so I answer what I think your possible questions are, and that makes me a snot. Got it.

You're the best.

I just repeated the contract situation I heard, I wasn't trying to question you. I was surprised he was under control that long. That being said, you follow baseball enough to know how "fickle" relievers are.

 

[pittdan77]

Honestly, bickering about the moves the Pirates might make to possibly win something is futile. It's kind of amazing that anyone thinks it's a realistic possibility.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

That being said, you follow baseball enough to know how "fickle" relievers are.

I do. Which is why if it was me I would be listening to offers. But with the length of control the Pirates have it would have to be a really good offer for me to even seriously consider it.

And if nothing happens at the trade deadline I'd be listening again in the off season.

 

[maxxwell]

They have enough term control of both Marte and Vasquez that they don’t need to decide anything now, but if they don’t have a real shot next year they may want to be looking to trade in the off season. The Taillon and Williams injuries/fall offs have killed what little chance that existed this year.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

7.5 games back from the division, 6 games back with 10 teams ahead of them in the WC. This season is over. The store should be open. And while I would not be hasty to rid myself of Vasquez and Marte, I would let people know they can be had but have to be blown away.

This organization needs pitching desperately. The cupboard is bare outside of Mitch Keller. Pitching is expensive, a decent 3rd starter is going to cost you $15 mill/year. So......this might be the best route to get some.

 

[maxxwell]

Yes, I think we’re on the same page. They don’t have to trade either but certainly could if the offer is good enough. As to Marte I’d hate it personally as he’s my favorite Pirate but it really comes down to their intentions wrt him.

 

[FreeportPanther]

Yes, I think we’re on the same page. They don’t have to trade either but certainly could if the offer is good enough. As to Marte I’d hate it personally as he’s my favorite Pirate but it really comes down to their intentions wrt him.

Hint: Rooting for PIrates players is kind of like combat.
Don't get too attached to anyone because they likely won't be around too long if they are any good.