OT: Pens n' at.

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

0-3. Zero points. 3 goals total. None for Sid or Geno. Sid without a point.

Too soon?

Well you go back to last year and they are 5-18 in their last 23. Those numbers have gotten coaches on teams with less expectations to be fired.

I am suspecting that if Johnston loses these next 2 games, he is gonzo. Personally he is making me long for the days of Dan Bylsma. Hell, long for the days of Kevin Constantine and Ivan Hlinka. Just a completely uninspired bunch.

It was a risk bringing an unknown quantity into a team that you imagine has strong personality and a will to do it their way, and their way only. And that is obvious. What is not obvious is a strong internal leadership. Or maybe there is, and that leadership doesn't trust or think this coach is qualified either.

Regardless of the next 2 games, I don't think Johnston lasts until Halloween.

 

[pbrad]

I'm surprised, Sid usually slumps in April.

 

[Bethlehemjohn]

They just completely suck right now.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

They just completely suck right now.

The problem is, they sucked at the end of last year too. And if you read my posts from last year, you know I am no way absolving Crosby and Malkin. In fact, I tweeted the other day the realization is just maybe these two aren't that good anymore. Still.......it is obvious that something, I mean these guys just aren't getting it done. And it is the same crap over and over again.

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

Fairly or unfairly, it doesn't matter what happens until the playoffs...or so I've been told.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Fairly or unfairly, it doesn't matter what happens until the playoffs...or so I've been told.

You have to make them for it to matter, right?

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

Yeah, I know. That's been my point for the past three years when people first started saying that idiotic statement.

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

The problem with Penguins fans and media is that door doesn't seem to swing both ways.

If the Pens were 3–0 and Crosby had five goals and nine points, and Malkin had three goals and seven points; nobody would be talking about the Stanley Cup or the Hart Trophy or the Jack Adams Award - and nor should they be. It would be obscenely early to be making any types of proclamations this early in such a long season.

However, they are 0–3 so we are going to talk about messed up team chemistry, not making the playoffs, firing the coach, etc.

I am just looking for some intellectual consistency. That does not seem unreasonable to me.

Pittsburgh has played three games and truthfully, they haven't been all that bad. Don't get me wrong, they have not played tremendously well. However, they are few bounces away from being at least 2–1.

I thought Niemi stole the Dallas game and Smith absolutely stole the Arizona game. Carey Price is generally considered to be the very best goaltender in the world and it's tough to beat him.

We play in a very difficult division - arguably the most competitive in the entire NHL - so three-game losing streaks are definitely something we would hope to avoid. However, I think Pittsburgh is going to be just fine, I really do.

Obviously, the two superstars need to ramp up their offensive production. Also, the defense must do a much better job of breaking out cleanly and the forwards need to quit turning the puck over in the neutral zone. I will live with that from the superstars and from the rookies like Plotnikov, but when I consistently see it from bottom six forwards it drives me crazy (I'm looking at you David Perron)!

If they can achieve those modest objectives, and that they can get a good goaltending and stay reasonably healthy, they are going to start to reel off a lot of wins. There are simply too good for it to go any other way.

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

As for the coaching situation, I think Johnston is okay. I don't think he is a great coach but I don't think he's a terrible coach by any means.

He definitely understands the X's and O's exceptionally well. I'm not sure he's a great fit for a professional locker room but he is very sound schematically - more so than his predecessor.

However, I always thought that the Bylsma criticisms were way over-the-top. That guy was/is a good coach. Perhaps his time here had run out – I think a good argument could be made for that. However, the people who insisted that he was a terrible hockey coach were way off base. That was obvious at the time and it is even more obvious in retrospect.

If you are looking for a villain, Ray Shero would be my choice. Again, he did too many good things for me to kill him too badly. However, his poor drafting record and his willingness to trade high round draft choices robbed the organization of its depth and we are still feeling that sting today.

I think it's a little weird that he doesn't get more criticism while Rutherford gets a lot of criticism.

 

[PittPoker]

All those concussions ruined Cosby - nothing like he used to be and it's only going to get worse.

I miss Blysma.

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

I don't think it is concussions that ruined Cosby. I think it was something else that renders you unconscious that ruined Cosby.

I do agree that it is only going to get worse from here for that dude.

 

[Pittx9]

I'm surprised Johnston made it to November last year. I never really thought he was the guy they actually wanted. He's as good as gone IMO.

 

[CougarClaws]

As for the coaching situation, I think Johnston is okay. I don't think he is a great coach but I don't think he's a terrible coach by any means.

He definitely understands the X's and O's exceptionally well. I'm not sure he's a great fit for a professional locker room but he is very sound schematically - more so than his predecessor.

However, I always thought that the Bylsma criticisms were way over-the-top. That guy was/is a good coach. Perhaps his time here had run out – I think a good argument could be made for that. However, the people who insisted that he was a terrible hockey coach were way off base. That was obvious at the time and it is even more obvious in retrospect.

If you are looking for a villain, Ray Shero would be my choice. Again, he did too many good things for me to kill him too badly. However, his poor drafting record and his willingness to trade high round draft choices robbed the organization of its depth and we are still feeling that sting today.

I think it's a little weird that he doesn't get more criticism while Rutherford gets a lot of criticism.

Dr. I have to disagree with you on the Coaches. Bylsma was a mess from the day Fitzgerald quit coaching after the Cup win, and MJ is even worse. He is NOT a strong coach schematically, but actually quite the opposite, although Bylsma may have been worse in that department.

Coach has no feel for chemistry amongst his players, and no ability to counter team's effective responses to his system. Worse than that however, is the complete lack of accountability he has shown with key players such as Kunitz, who doesn't even try anymore. As long as poor performing vets like him are allowed to float around the rink without consequence, that locker room is poison.

We have two successful experienced head coaches in the org. Until one of them is given the reigns to this team and straightens out the core culture this team will continue to underperform.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

As for the coaching situation, I think Johnston is okay. I don't think he is a great coach but I don't think he's a terrible coach by any means.

He definitely understands the X's and O's exceptionally well. I'm not sure he's a great fit for a professional locker room but he is very sound schematically - more so than his predecessor.

However, I always thought that the Bylsma criticisms were way over-the-top. That guy was/is a good coach. Perhaps his time here had run out – I think a good argument could be made for that. However, the people who insisted that he was a terrible hockey coach were way off base. That was obvious at the time and it is even more obvious in retrospect.

If you are looking for a villain, Ray Shero would be my choice. Again, he did too many good things for me to kill him too badly. However, his poor drafting record and his willingness to trade high round draft choices robbed the organization of its depth and we are still feeling that sting today.

I think it's a little weird that he doesn't get more criticism while Rutherford gets a lot of criticism.

Agree with you on Shero. All of those "puck moving defensemen" and how we would be loaded and have so much that we can trade them for other chips, well where are all of these puck moving defensemen and where were all of these chips? The Hossa trade was brilliant. The Iginla trade was brilliant (if they used him right). The rest of the deadline deals were horrid. Especially Douglas Murray.

Anyways on to coaching. At this level, they ALL know X's and O's. Hell, the players know pretty much what to do. It is getting them to subordinate and play hard and go all in, and like Bylsma, we are not seeing this with MJ. Someone needs to say, "Sid you WILL play down low on the PP", "Geno, you WILL play on the half board." "Letang, you will play within yourself and not try and add a degree of difficulty" to the play. And "Sid, Chris Kunitz is a 36 year old 3rd liner now, you no longer are going to play with him on your wing" and move someone else there.

Someone needs to tell them to STOP gaining the zone then curling away looking always for a long cross ice pass or a trailer and take the effing puck on the net. Someone needs to have the guts to look at Rob Scuderi and say "Scuds, you are going to be our 7th dman,"

And someone needs to put some fear in the "room" not merely accepting that "I thought our effort was better" tonight after another loss.

 

[vegasgreed]

Last 63 games, Sid has zero points in 18 of them.

 

[Twisted Pittster]

Johnston needs to go. He's the hockey version of John Russell. Let Tocchet or Jacques Martin have the reigns for the rest of the season. At that time re-evaluate, which includes having Rutherford move on and make way for Jason Botterill who can bring in (or maintain) the coach who will be "his guy".

 

[Pghfan]

Ridiculously boring system.. Hindsight is what it is but Disco dan's system was at least entertaining.. Id rather lose in the second or third round of the playoffs by a score of 6 to 5 than have to win the last game of the season to make playoffs, only to get shut out in first series because we cant score a goal to save our lives.. I am sure this guy's system works but not with this personnel..

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

Why do people assume that the struggles are all due to insubordination? I honestly don't understand that aspect of this discussion.

That is how this is always framed, that all of the players refuse to do what they're told.

That seems highly unlikely to me. Everyone wants to win and if you're not winning of course you're going to listen to outside advice.

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

My primary point is if things were going well and someone came on here gloating that Pittsburgh was 3–0 and predicting things like Hart Trophies and Stanley Cups, etc. people would lambaste him for being an idiot. It is way too soon for any of that garbage. However, the same is true on the other side of that exact same coin.

It goes without saying that this is the worst possible way for Pittsburgh to have begun its season. I think everyone well understands that there are probably five or six teams in the Metropolitan Division who are all vying for four spots and that the overwhelming likelihood is the team that gets left out is going to miss by one or two points.

However, I'm going to continue to tune in to their games just in case they can somehow overcome their slow start in the final 79 games of the regular season.

 

[pitt-girl]

0-3. Zero points. 3 goals total. None for Sid or Geno. Sid without a point.

Too soon?

Well you go back to last year and they are 5-18 in their last 23. Those numbers have gotten coaches on teams with less expectations to be fired.

I am suspecting that if Johnston loses these next 2 games, he is gonzo. Personally he is making me long for the days of Dan Bylsma. Hell, long for the days of Kevin Constantine and Ivan Hlinka. Just a completely uninspired bunch.

It was a risk bringing an unknown quantity into a team that you imagine has strong personality and a will to do it their way, and their way only. And that is obvious. What is not obvious is a strong internal leadership. Or maybe there is, and that leadership doesn't trust or think this coach is qualified either.

Regardless of the next 2 games, I don't think Johnston lasts until Halloween.

Recruits - refresh me here - didn't the Pens have some issues with HC selections when they signed Johnston?

 

[JohnnyGossamer]

I think it's fair... It's 3 games of 82. So long as the Pens qualify for the playoffs and manage to advance a round or two further than last season, the year's a success. Otherwise, they'll replace the HC and turnover's in order. Long season, same goes for the NBA and MLB.

 

[Pghfan]

Recruits - refresh me here - didn't the Pens have some issues with HC selections when they signed Johnston?

Ownership hired an assistant (Tocchet) before hiring a HC. an absolutely pathetic move btw..

 

[Pittx9]

Ownership hired an assistant (Tocchet) before hiring a HC. an absolutely pathetic move btw..

That's why I think they didn't really want Johnston. I think Tocchet will be head coach soon.

 

[pittdan77]

I know 0-3 is too early but the situation resembles a slow motion train wreck. This team is isn't going the right direction and nobody seems to have an answer that makes any sense. Starts with ownership. They've left themselves very little room to move and seem to be content with the notion that they've a playoff team that just can't get over the hump.

 

[WOODY92]

No leadership. It's been that way for a while. There may or may not be issues with the Johnston system, but when Sidney Crosby rolls into the first two games of the season and can't generate a shot it says more about Sidney Crosby than it does the system or coach. Sure it's early, but this isn't a new thing except for the fact the organization went out and got a sniper for Crosby's wing. There are no excuses. Blaming the system is an excuse. This isn't a case of a football team running the wishbone with a pure drop back passer as a starting QB. It's hockey. Yeah, systems play into what goes on, but if you play with no heart and don't compete it makes no difference what the system is. Regardless of how well Niemi played in Dallas, that game was a complete embarrassment. Beyond that, it's just more of the same. Kris Letang hasn't been able to run a power play for his entire career. What he brings to the table with skating ability he takes right back with reckless play and a complete inability to hit the net consistently with his shot and set anyone up on the power play. Rob Scuderi should've been dropped off in Johnstown two weeks ago regardless of the contract issues. They're soft, they don't compete and their captain has never shown an ability to lead the charge in an opposite direction of those two realities. When you hear him saying "our compete level has to be better" following game 1 of 82 at the beginning of his 11th season it should be an indication there are serious leadership issues. So they might get another coach fired. Good for them. Crosby may end up putting up nice stats again, but the focus shouldn't be on that and should instead be on the fact he hasn't led them to a meaningful win in a long, long, long time. Over the course of two different systems. Malkin hasn't been any better, but he isn't the face of the franchise. He isn't the guy dictating that a tired, old broken down Kunitz is still getting top six minutes. He wasn't the guy who wanted Iginla playing the wrong side of the ice on the wrong line a few seasons back. Sooner or later someone is going to have to let Crosby know that his way of doing things isn't working. I'm not holding my breath.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

My primary point is if things were going well and someone came on here gloating that Pittsburgh was 3–0 and predicting things like Hart Trophies and Stanley Cups, etc. people would lambaste him for being an idiot. It is way too soon for any of that garbage. However, the same is true on the other side of that exact same coin.

It goes without saying that this is the worst possible way for Pittsburgh to have begun its season. I think everyone well understands that there are probably five or six teams in the Metropolitan Division who are all vying for four spots and that the overwhelming likelihood is the team that gets left out is going to miss by one or two points.

However, I'm going to continue to tune in to their games just in case they can somehow overcome their slow start in the final 79 games of the regular season.

Doc, I hope you aren't referring to me. My hockey pedigree is at least as long and as deep as your's. Again, it is not why I just referred to 0-3 but the 5-18 record over the last 23. A lot of people are saying if "0-3" happened in January (meaning 3 losses in a row) that no one would be even contemplating this, but if that 3 loss streak was part of a 5-18 run, then absolutely people would be questioning if a coaching change needs to happen. Especially in hockey. ESPECIALLY with this franchise who has sold their soul (and future) to winning now, and can't waste a year having a coach trying to figure it out.

Again, please don't take this as another excuse for the stars underperforming, but the fact remains they are here to stay, the team is built completely around them (finally?) and while Ray Shero has done a lot of damage, no effing way this team should win 5 out of 23 games at any time. They didn't do that when Sid and Geno were both out.

They are lackluster, look disinterested, etc...and again I also think it is on the players as much as the coaches and on the previous personnel decisions, but a lot of the same questions and issues when HCDB was here, we still see now (power player personnel and positioning, over reliance on over the hill veterans over giving the young kids a shot, the stars not playing well and Beau Bennett being injured, etc...)

So.......hence my original post.

 

[Dr. von Yinzer]

Doc, I hope you aren't referring to me. My hockey pedigree is at least as long and as deep as your's. Again, it is not why I just referred to 0-3 but the 5-18 record over the last 23. A lot of people are saying if "0-3" happened in January (meaning 3 losses in a row) that no one would be even contemplating this, but if that 3 loss streak was part of a 5-18 run, then absolutely people would be questioning if a coaching change needs to happen. Especially in hockey. ESPECIALLY with this franchise who has sold their soul (and future) to winning now, and can't waste a year having a coach trying to figure it out.

Again, please don't take this as another excuse for the stars underperforming, but the fact remains they are here to stay, the team is built completely around them (finally?) and while Ray Shero has done a lot of damage, no effing way this team should win 5 out of 23 games at any time. They didn't do that when Sid and Geno were both out.

They are lackluster, look disinterested, etc...and again I also think it is on the players as much as the coaches and on the previous personnel decisions, but a lot of the same questions and issues when HCDB was here, we still see now (power player personnel and positioning, over reliance on over the hill veterans over giving the young kids a shot, the stars not playing well and Beau Bennett being injured, etc...)

So.......hence my original post.

No, I know you're a good hockey fan.