OT: Pirate Fans....the Prospects Thread.

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Let's go back to those halcyon days of 2014. The Pirates were in the midst of a 98 game winning season. Everything looked fantastic. However the Pirates were going to come up short again, losing out in a 1 game Wild Card game against Jake Arrieta and the Cubs. The Pirates with 98 wins, only 6 times in their long history have they won as many or more, played one game in the post season because they were in a division with the 100 win Cards and the 97 win Cubs.

But the Pirates system was "loaded". Help is on the way. Could they parlay some of this talent into a stud bat or a stud starter to put them over the top? No.

Let's look at those untouchable prospects now.

Alan Hansen. DFA'd. His best years were at Single A.
Tyler Glasnow. Biggest question mark. Right now looks like that classic AAAA pitcher. Will likely eventually turn into a reliever moreso than an ace starter. Untouchable, right?
Gregory Polanco. Is there anyone more disappointing? Maybe Glasnow. But at this point in his career, Andrew McCutcheon was establishing himself as a superstar. Polanco looks lost.
Austin Meadows. Hey, the next one, right? Maybe not.

Pretty much that package could have fetched a Chris Sale or a Giancarlo Stanton.

Nick Kingham. Not his fault, but arm problems have cost him.
Jameson Taillon. Looks like he is legit. We shall see, overcome injuries, cancer and bad luck. But he was a #2 overall. That is Ace material. Is he an "ace"?
Josh Bell. He and Taillon are the two from this list back then who look like they maybe above average MLB players.

Luis Heredia. Who?
Reese McGuire. Given away to Toronto to take all of Frankie Liriano's salary.
Harold Ramirez. See McGuire, Reese.
Adam Frazier. Okay, serviceable MLB 4th OF and utility player.

Baseball America's Top 10 Prospects from 2014 for your Buccos.
10 PROSPECTS. Gregory Polanco, of2. Jameson Taillon, rhp3. Tyler Glasnow, rhp4. Austin Meadows, of5. Nick Kingham, rhp6. Alen Hanson, ss7. Josh Bell, of8. Reese McGuire, c9. Harold Ramirez, of10. Luis Heredia, rhp

What is the moral here? Well aside from these guys either not being properly developed or just not that good in the first place, when you have a chance to win, when you are one of the best teams, you don't worry about 5 years down the road.

Sure this year was derailed by Kang and Marte. But that top 10, you could have traded all of them for one stud OF and one Ace SP and be no worse for wear as an organization. What does happen for sure, is that prospects have to eventually do one thing. Play. And by that they are exposed. So you have decide if you are going to win or risk that your "prospects" are better than what you have now. In most cases, since what you have won 98 games, the answer is a resounding "no".

 

[Gunga_Galunga]

Prospects are just that, prospects. Pirate fans should know by now that a majority of them will never pan out. Yet, so many people keep drinking the prospect kool aide as a reason why the buccos can't go out and get major league players when they had a chance to make a run.

Their business model is cheap payroll, be semi-competitive, and sell fans on the future. That's all they will ever be under Nutting.

Compare this to the Penguins who are in a win at all costs while we have some stars mode.

 

[WiseAndGlorious]

Why did Wlat refuse to get the ball to Fitz in the Tire Bowl?

 

[WiseAndGlorious]

Tom Brady was still available when the Steelers drafted Tee Martin.

 

[beiglepanther]

I'm still excited to see what Chad Hermansen does!!!!!

 

[Panther Holla]

Before the first Nutting Koolaid sipper shows up to point at The Future (That Never Comes), I agree with the OP. Buc farm system's output has been lackluster, and the Pirates are reluctant to fast-track anyone to the big league club, as many other orgs do. The cubs sign a kid in 2015 and stick him in the lineup in 2017; the Pirates age prospects in the casks of Altoona and Indy as if they were bottles of fine merlot.

If 2016 was a "bridge year", what is 2017? An alternate route?

 

[h2p_5150]

I'm really starting to wonder at this point what the issue is. Are the players being overrated by the "experts?" Are the pirates not doing enough to prepare the quality guys to transition to the majors? That farm system you listed above, that has produced 2 solid players (Jameson and Bell), one mediocre frustration (Polanco), some bench help (Frazier) and nothing else was one of the top 10 systems in the major leagues according to Baseball America.

 

[Trume322]

The Pirates are a business and have future expectations for their lineup. You can't plan for disaster like Marte and Kang. If we had the following lineup, not a person would complain.

Harrison
Marte
Mccutchen
Kang
Bell
Polanco
Cervelli
Mercer
Cole

With our top 3 starting pitchers. We would be a very competitive team. That's a good business plan with a very cheap owner. It sucks their cheap. But you have to face reality. They're cheap.

Huntington does pretty good with a cheap owner. Of course, he could do better and the farm system has definitely underperformed.

 

[Las Panteras]

Tom Brady was still available when the Steelers drafted Tee Martin.

you sure?

I know Marc Bulger was.....because he went with the next pick

 

[Swervin27]

wait til our infield of the future pans out, then you'll see.. 2001 cant get here soon enough

3rd base_Ramirez
SS_Nunez
2nd Base-Hermanson
1st base- Ron Wright

 

[JoseLind13]

Paul Zeise does some great commentary on this topic often, if you get a chance to catch one of his rants on the Fan. The opportunities were right in front of the Pirates and the rent-a-player moves that Neil did make were mostly successful. With some more bargaining chips, you have to think they could have make a title run or at least pulled home a division crown to avoid the WC Game. Ironically, with Taillon's injury problems over those 3 years, he is probably the one name on the list that wouldn't have drawn much value and wouldn't have been traded. Of course, in typical Pirates' fashion, there was also some horrible luck. To have the 3 best team in all of MLB in the same division in 2015 was unbelievable. In a 7 game series, the Pirates probably would have been favored over anybody in the NL, including the Cards. For the Cubs and Pirates to play a 1-game set felt almost criminal to whomever lost and Arrieta was literally on one of the hottest steaks in MLB history, at the time.

I think all of us want them to spend more on the roster and feel they overvalue the prospects when the opportunity to win is now. It's a huge frustration all these years. Then again, it's a tough equation to crack in the current MLB economics... the core players of those winning teams were mostly homegrown farm talent or reclamation projects that they re-developed. A large market club like the Phillies show that foolish spending and trades can doom a club's future long-term. It's not as simple as spending wildly in free agency and selling off the farm. I don't know the right answer.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Paul Zeise does some great commentary on this topic often, if you get a chance to catch one of his rants on the Fan. The opportunities were right in front of the Pirates and the rent-a-player moves that Neil did make were mostly successful. With some more bargaining chips, you have to think they could have make a title run or at least pulled home a division crown to avoid the WC Game. Ironically, with Taillon's injury problems over those 3 years, he is probably the one name on the list that wouldn't have drawn much value and wouldn't have been traded. Of course, in typical Pirates' fashion, there was also some horrible luck. To have the 3 best team in all of MLB in the same division in 2015 was unbelievable. In a 7 game series, the Pirates probably would have been favored over anybody in the NL, including the Cards. For the Cubs and Pirates to play a 1-game set felt almost criminal to whomever lost and Arrieta was literally on one of the hottest steaks in MLB history, at the time.

I think all of us want them to spend more on the roster and feel they overvalue the prospects when the opportunity to win is now. It's a huge frustration all these years. Then again, it's a tough equation to crack in the current MLB economics... the core players of those winning teams were mostly homegrown farm talent or reclamation projects that they re-developed. A large market club like the Phillies show that foolish spending and trades can doom a club's future long-term. It's not as simple as spending wildly in free agency and selling off the farm. I don't know the right answer.

Yes I do. He is dead on in this matter.

And already you have someone crying the small market blues in this thread.

Let's look at KC. KC got good, ending a long embarrassing streak at the same time the Pirates did. In fairness, the Pirates were in a much better division. But in 2014, the Pirates lost to Madison Baumgartner and the SF Giants in a 1 game Wild Card game. The KC Royals lost to the Giants in the World Series. The Pirates had a good lineup, did really nothing to add to it. Made a nice deadline trade for JA Happ. The Royals, traded for Cueto, traded for Ben Zobrist, signed Alex Rios, OMG all that money, those prospects, those beautiful prospects......how could they, are they nuts? They are small market!

The Royals won it all. 2015 World Series Champs. So they mortgaged their future right? The Pirates window is still open while the Royals have closed. Right? Well last year the Royals finished 81-81. This year the Royals are 37-38. The Pirates? 78-83 last year. They are 35-42. So. Well.

Just all BS. The windows are short here. The Pirates organization would have been 10 times in a much better spot if they traded Glasnow, Meadows, Hansen, Polanco, Taillon, for Stanton and Sale in 2015. Because......you can always turn those two around into more prospects after you win something and they get further into their contracts.

But then...the Pirates can't sell that false hope of "next year" and "the future".

 

[Trume322]

Yes I do. He is dead on in this matter.

And already you have someone crying the small market blues in this thread.

Let's look at KC. KC got good, ending a long embarrassing streak at the same time the Pirates did. In fairness, the Pirates were in a much better division. But in 2014, the Pirates lost to Madison Baumgartner and the SF Giants in a 1 game Wild Card game. The KC Royals lost to the Giants in the World Series. The Pirates had a good lineup, did really nothing to add to it. Made a nice deadline trade for JA Happ. The Royals, traded for Cueto, traded for Ben Zobrist, signed Alex Rios, OMG all that money, those prospects, those beautiful prospects......how could they, are they nuts? They are small market!

The Royals won it all. 2015 World Series Champs. So they mortgaged their future right? The Pirates window is still open while the Royals have closed. Right? Well last year the Royals finished 81-81. This year the Royals are 37-38. The Pirates? 78-83 last year. They are 35-42. So. Well.

Just all BS. The windows are short here. The Pirates organization would have been 10 times in a much better spot if they traded Glasnow, Meadows, Hansen, Polanco, Taillon, for Stanton and Sale in 2015. Because......you can always turn those two around into more prospects after you win something and they get further into their contracts.

But then...the Pirates can't sell that false hope of "next year" and "the future".

Do you think the 2015 Royals were better than the 2015 Pirates? I dont. They both are bad now (and we wouldn't be without terrible luck this year). The royals are going to be bad for a while because they gambled on one year (and won) but still took a huge risk.

We will be competing for at least the WC for years to come. Huntington is human, he's not a fortune teller.

The royals have an owner who isn't cheap. That's not our reality. Hate it all you want. But face reality.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Do you think the 2015 Royals were better than the 2015 Pirates? I dont. They both are bad now (and we wouldn't be without terrible luck this year). The royals are going to be bad for a while because they gambled on one year (and won) but still took a huge risk.

We will be competing for at least the WC for years to come. Huntington is human, he's not a fortune teller.

The royals have an owner who isn't cheap. That's not our reality. Hate it all you want. But face reality.

Doesn't matter. The Royals were in back to back WS's and won one. The Pirates may have been unfairly in the tough division, but that is your competition so you have to beat your competition.

And how on god's earth will the Pirates be competing for "AT LEAST (lol) the WC for years to come"? What the hell are you smoking? You're dumb. How are they going to do this?

 

[h2p_5150]

They might compete for the wild card the next few years but I don't know how you're so certain of it. This franchise has a lot of question marks right now. A lot of the players have high upside, but they have struggled to get there so far in their careers (except for Taillon.) Without major additions over the winter (which, uh, aren't coming) this is a team that, if a lot of things break right, wins 88 games or so. They just don't have much depth to withstand any injury or suspension, etc.

 

[Trume322]

Do you think this lineup is a playoff team?

Harrison
Marte
Mccutchen
Kang
Bell
Polanco
Cervelli
Mercer
Cole

Starting pitchers
Nova
Cole
Taillon
4th pitcher

That was the Pirates plan. They were unlucky, it's an impossible thing to plan for. If you don't think that's a playoff team, you know nothing about baseball.

I can see that some of you are very irrational though (calling someone you have never met names).

What happened to intelligent debate. Just crazy people yelling these days.

Name me one small market team that competes year after year? It doesn't happen. Baseball is a business, even though people try to act like it isn't. They have other goals than just winning, you would have to be a child to not see that. Baseball is not fair and other teams have way more money than us. On top of that, our owner is cheap (baseball is not fair).

Depth is certainly an issue. No team is perfect in baseball. No team. You have to have realistic expectations. No team can withstand major injury. No wonder some of you are so angry.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

Do you think this lineup is a playoff team?

Harrison
Marte
Mccutchen
Kang
Bell
Polanco
Cervelli
Mercer
Cole

Starting pitchers
Nova
Cole
Taillon
4th pitcher

That was the Pirates plan. They were unlucky, it's an impossible thing to plan for. If you don't think that's a playoff team, you know nothing about baseball.

I can see that some of you are very irrational though (calling someone you have never met names).

What happened to intelligent debate. Just crazy people yelling these days.

You said "at least for years to come". Care to explain??

Cutch will be traded at deadline. Polanco is horrible. Marte is overrated. Cole will be gone in another year. Taillon is still unproven. Nova isn't exactly Kershaw. "4th pitcher", you mean like Ryan Vogelsong?

As far as this year, again I dunno. They are 7 games below .500. Does Kang and Marte put them 7 games over .500?

 

[Trume322]

You said "at least for years to come". Care to explain??

Cutch will be traded at deadline. Polanco is horrible. Marte is overrated. Cole will be gone in another year. Taillon is still unproven. Nova isn't exactly Kershaw. "4th pitcher", you mean like Ryan Vogelsong?

As far as this year, again I dunno. They are 7 games below .500. Does Kang and Marte put them 7 games over .500?

I see where you're coming from.

But, Marte was an all star last year and the best left fielder in the game. Give the guy some credit. Kang has always been one of our best hitters when playing. Mccutchen if traded will bring a ton of playes in (his OPS since moving out of the 3 is 1.300). Taillon was one of the best rookies in baseball last year. They won't let Cole walk away without restocking the farm. Nova has one of the best ERA's in baseball right now. These are all above average players that you are not giving any credit too.

Polanco has been a big disappointment. That sucks.

Our cheap team puts competitive teams out there the last few years except last year. And they told us it was a transition. We were unlucky this year, it's sports. That happens.

They have negotiated great contracts with above average players for years to come. The Pirates will be a team for a while that trades great players for prospects or reclamation projects. They don't have enough money to compete straight up with the Yankees and Dodgers of the world.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

I see where you're coming from.

But, Marte was an all star last year and the best left fielder in the game. Give the guy some credit. Kang has always been one of our best hitters when playing. Mccutchen if traded will bring a ton of playes in (his OPS since moving out of the 3 is 1.300). Taillon was one of the best rookies in baseball last year. They won't let Cole walk away without restocking the farm. Nova has one of the best ERA's in baseball right now. These are all above average players that you are not giving any credit too.

Polanco has been a big disappointment. That sucks.

Our cheap team puts competitive teams out there the last few years except last year. And they told us it was a transition. We were unlucky this year, it's sports. That happens.

They have negotiated great contracts with above average players for years to come. The Pirates will be a team for a while that trades great players for prospects or reclamation projects. They don't have enough money to compete straight up with the Yankees and Dodgers of the world.

Don't have to compete with them. Holy christ man, you are acting like the Pirates are sports model franchise. This city has two of them, unfortunately the Pirates are not one of them. Spending when you had 98 wins like KC or Cleveland. Remember, the ultimate goal is to WIN a championship, not merely be competitive or .500.

This franchise has not won a playoff series since 1979. I think the fanbase here deserves this. Bob Nutting is the 10th richest owner in MLB. They said they would raise payroll when the fans came out, they didn't really, now did they? They lied. Did it make sense throwing in 2 prospects to take Francisco Liriano's complete salary? It was supposed to give them "financial flexibility". Well? They didn't use it did they? It is all lies by this organization. Lies. Lies and Bullshit. For you to swallow them, well I have to question your intelligence or you are just a kid and don't quite understand this stuff yet.

I don't expect the Pirates to spend what the Yankees do. I don't expect the Pirates to give Garritt Cole $180-200 million which surely will happen. I do expect the Pirates when they win 98 games and 3/5's of their starting rotation is hitting free agency or retiring and no one in the system is yet ready, to at least sign JA Happ. Who incidentally was only the 13th most expensive free agent last year. I don't expect the Pirates to be that blinded with their own prospects that they forget to try and improve a 98 win team in a division with the Cubs and Cards that they act more concerned about 2020 than trying to win now.

 

[Trume322]

Don't have to compete with them. Holy christ man, you are acting like the Pirates are sports model franchise. This city has two of them, unfortunately the Pirates are not one of them. Spending when you had 98 wins like KC or Cleveland. Remember, the ultimate goal is to WIN a championship, not merely be competitive or .500.

This franchise has not won a playoff series since 1979. I think the fanbase here deserves this. Bob Nutting is the 10th richest owner in MLB. They said they would raise payroll when the fans came out, they didn't really, now did they? They lied. Did it make sense throwing in 2 prospects to take Francisco Liriano's complete salary? It was supposed to give them "financial flexibility". Well? They didn't use it did they? It is all lies by this organization. Lies. Lies and Bullshit. For you to swallow them, well I have to question your intelligence or you are just a kid and don't quite understand this stuff yet.

I don't expect the Pirates to spend what the Yankees do. I don't expect the Pirates to give Garritt Cole $180-200 million which surely will happen. I do expect the Pirates when they win 98 games and 3/5's of their starting rotation is hitting free agency or retiring and no one in the system is yet ready, to at least sign JA Happ. Who incidentally was only the 13th most expensive free agent last year. I don't expect the Pirates to be that blinded with their own prospects that they forget to try and improve a 98 win team in a division with the Cubs and Cards that they act more concerned about 2020 than trying to win now.

They are so far from the model franchise its incredible. I have no idea why you would imply that from my statements. I just face reality.

The reality is the pirates are not in the business of pleasing fans. Thats why they don't! They are in the business of making money. Nuttings decisions reflect that.

The difference is, I'm a business man and I see that my home baseball team isn't run well. But I still am gonna root for them! Nutting owns them. It's business. He can do whatever he wants. I ****ing hate Nutting. You are way off on that.

They are wayyyy behind the Steelers and Penguins. Doesn't change the fact that I'm from Pittsburgh and my second favorite sport is baseball.

Businessmen and politicians lie. Welcome to capitalism.

 

[DiehardPanther]

Let's go back to those halcyon days of 2014. The Pirates were in the midst of a 98 game winning season. Everything looked fantastic. However the Pirates were going to come up short again, losing out in a 1 game Wild Card game against Jake Arrieta and the Cubs. The Pirates with 98 wins, only 6 times in their long history have they won as many or more, played one game in the post season because they were in a division with the 100 win Cards and the 97 win Cubs.

But the Pirates system was "loaded". Help is on the way. Could they parlay some of this talent into a stud bat or a stud starter to put them over the top? No.

Let's look at those untouchable prospects now.

Alan Hansen. DFA'd. His best years were at Single A.
Tyler Glasnow. Biggest question mark. Right now looks like that classic AAAA pitcher. Will likely eventually turn into a reliever moreso than an ace starter. Untouchable, right?
Gregory Polanco. Is there anyone more disappointing? Maybe Glasnow. But at this point in his career, Andrew McCutcheon was establishing himself as a superstar. Polanco looks lost.
Austin Meadows. Hey, the next one, right? Maybe not.

Pretty much that package could have fetched a Chris Sale or a Giancarlo Stanton.

Nick Kingham. Not his fault, but arm problems have cost him.
Jameson Taillon. Looks like he is legit. We shall see, overcome injuries, cancer and bad luck. But he was a #2 overall. That is Ace material. Is he an "ace"?
Josh Bell. He and Taillon are the two from this list back then who look like they maybe above average MLB players.

Luis Heredia. Who?
Reese McGuire. Given away to Toronto to take all of Frankie Liriano's salary.
Harold Ramirez. See McGuire, Reese.
Adam Frazier. Okay, serviceable MLB 4th OF and utility player.

Baseball America's Top 10 Prospects from 2014 for your Buccos.
10 PROSPECTS. Gregory Polanco, of2. Jameson Taillon, rhp3. Tyler Glasnow, rhp4. Austin Meadows, of5. Nick Kingham, rhp6. Alen Hanson, ss7. Josh Bell, of8. Reese McGuire, c9. Harold Ramirez, of10. Luis Heredia, rhp

What is the moral here? Well aside from these guys either not being properly developed or just not that good in the first place, when you have a chance to win, when you are one of the best teams, you don't worry about 5 years down the road.

Sure this year was derailed by Kang and Marte. But that top 10, you could have traded all of them for one stud OF and one Ace SP and be no worse for wear as an organization. What does happen for sure, is that prospects have to eventually do one thing. Play. And by that they are exposed. So you have decide if you are going to win or risk that your "prospects" are better than what you have now. In most cases, since what you have won 98 games, the answer is a resounding "no".

You are right. Good Points.

Cutch is only 30 or 31 years old. Unless they receive a lot in return, the Pirates would be fools for trading him now because Marte is no guarantee to play well and we have seen Polanco underperform. They should redo Cutch's contract and sign him up for 4 more years. Cutch is the face of the franchise and he already gave them a bargain in his last deal. Then Nutting needs to spend some of his billions to bring in another starting pitcher and another pitcher who can be a setup man in the bullpen.

 

[revampedpanthers]

Let's go back to those halcyon days of 2014. The Pirates were in the midst of a 98 game winning season. Everything looked fantastic. However the Pirates were going to come up short again, losing out in a 1 game Wild Card game against Jake Arrieta and the Cubs. The Pirates with 98 wins, only 6 times in their long history have they won as many or more, played one game in the post season because they were in a division with the 100 win Cards and the 97 win Cubs.

But the Pirates system was "loaded". Help is on the way. Could they parlay some of this talent into a stud bat or a stud starter to put them over the top? No.

Let's look at those untouchable prospects now.

Alan Hansen. DFA'd. His best years were at Single A.
Tyler Glasnow. Biggest question mark. Right now looks like that classic AAAA pitcher. Will likely eventually turn into a reliever moreso than an ace starter. Untouchable, right?
Gregory Polanco. Is there anyone more disappointing? Maybe Glasnow. But at this point in his career, Andrew McCutcheon was establishing himself as a superstar. Polanco looks lost.
Austin Meadows. Hey, the next one, right? Maybe not.

Pretty much that package could have fetched a Chris Sale or a Giancarlo Stanton.

Nick Kingham. Not his fault, but arm problems have cost him.
Jameson Taillon. Looks like he is legit. We shall see, overcome injuries, cancer and bad luck. But he was a #2 overall. That is Ace material. Is he an "ace"?
Josh Bell. He and Taillon are the two from this list back then who look like they maybe above average MLB players.

Luis Heredia. Who?
Reese McGuire. Given away to Toronto to take all of Frankie Liriano's salary.
Harold Ramirez. See McGuire, Reese.
Adam Frazier. Okay, serviceable MLB 4th OF and utility player.

Baseball America's Top 10 Prospects from 2014 for your Buccos.
10 PROSPECTS. Gregory Polanco, of2. Jameson Taillon, rhp3. Tyler Glasnow, rhp4. Austin Meadows, of5. Nick Kingham, rhp6. Alen Hanson, ss7. Josh Bell, of8. Reese McGuire, c9. Harold Ramirez, of10. Luis Heredia, rhp

What is the moral here? Well aside from these guys either not being properly developed or just not that good in the first place, when you have a chance to win, when you are one of the best teams, you don't worry about 5 years down the road.

Sure this year was derailed by Kang and Marte. But that top 10, you could have traded all of them for one stud OF and one Ace SP and be no worse for wear as an organization. What does happen for sure, is that prospects have to eventually do one thing. Play. And by that they are exposed. So you have decide if you are going to win or risk that your "prospects" are better than what you have now. In most cases, since what you have won 98 games, the answer is a resounding "no".

Overall I agree with your opinion that you make the trades needed to win when you have a chance. I think its a little early to give up on polanco and glasnow. Really if those two end up being solid Major league players that hit rate on %40 to %50 of the top 10 prospects being solid major league players is pretty much average! Which actually further's your point. Pick any major league teams to p10 prospects and half will end up actually being starters. If you can get a good major league pitcher or batter to put you over the top(especially if they are more than a 3 month pick up) you do it even if it cost you 2 top prospects as your really only giving up one future major league player.

 

[revampedpanthers]

As far as this year, again I dunno. They are 7 games below .500. Does Kang and Marte put them 7 games over .500?[/QUOTE]
Kang and Marte, assuming they would have had years like their top years, probably have them right around .500. Not losing Tallion for a few weeks and Cervelli for a short period maybe gives them two or 3 more wins. So if everyone stayed healthy for the first 80 games they might be 42-38. But almost no team stays completely healthy. Even if you count some of it as bad luck they aren't more than a .500 team.

 

[President Stache]

This is all Monday morning quarterbacking.

I agree in general though for sure.

Our best prospect we traded was Tito Polo, who was and is a stat monster, but we traded him and Tarpley for Nova, which at the time looked dumb as hell... as Nova was out of the Yankees plans and looked on a downward spiral. But Monday morning QBing the trade looks great.

There is no doubt the trades we made last year hurt moral of the team, but I agree with most all that the Pirates would have the same issues now due to Marte and Kang. Our main issue is our bench, which was a real strength, and the bullpen, which was a bigger strength, was both decimated with departures, and none of the prospects are ready to step in and make up for it.. I think pitching was better then too, but then again we had Jeff Locke then... so maybe its a push?

There is no certainty that trading prospects will get you a playoff. Knowing our management, we would have traded Meadows for Matt Garza or something.

 

[revampedpanthers]

Don't have to compete with them. Holy christ man, you are acting like the Pirates are sports model franchise. This city has two of them, unfortunately the Pirates are not one of them. Spending when you had 98 wins like KC or Cleveland. Remember, the ultimate goal is to WIN a championship, not merely be competitive or .500.

This franchise has not won a playoff series since 1979. I think the fanbase here deserves this. Bob Nutting is the 10th richest owner in MLB. They said they would raise payroll when the fans came out, they didn't really, now did they? They lied. Did it make sense throwing in 2 prospects to take Francisco Liriano's complete salary? It was supposed to give them "financial flexibility". Well? They didn't use it did they? It is all lies by this organization. Lies. Lies and Bullshit. For you to swallow them, well I have to question your intelligence or you are just a kid and don't quite understand this stuff yet.
I used to be a big baseball fan but honestly I just about gave it up. I pretty much tuned out on the pirates when they traded away prospects for cash(I could live with them being cheap and building through prospects but to then TURN AROUND AND SELL PROSPECTS FOR MONEY(Liriano deal) was to much to take.


I don't expect the Pirates to spend what the Yankees do. I don't expect the Pirates to give Garritt Cole $180-200 million which surely will happen. I do expect the Pirates when they win 98 games and 3/5's of their starting rotation is hitting free agency or retiring and no one in the system is yet ready, to at least sign JA Happ. Who incidentally was only the 13th most expensive free agent last year. I don't expect the Pirates to be that blinded with their own prospects that they forget to try and improve a 98 win team in a division with the Cubs and Cards that they act more concerned about 2020 than trying to win now.

Agree %100 I don't expect them to spend yankee money but I do expect that cheap bastard Nutting to at least spend close to what he is taking in. He isn't going to, so what can we as fans do? Don't give that cheap ass anymore of your money. Maybe then he will see that he can make just as much by spending a little more.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

You are right. Good Points.

Cutch is only 30 or 31 years old. Unless they receive a lot in return, the Pirates would be fools for trading him now because Marte is no guarantee to play well and we have seen Polanco underperform. They should redo Cutch's contract and sign him up for 4 more years. Cutch is the face of the franchise and he already gave them a bargain in his last deal. Then Nutting needs to spend some of his billions to bring in another starting pitcher and another pitcher who can be a setup man in the bullpen.

That's not what I said or implied. At all. I am all for trading Cutch, especially if his value is high. I do understand the realities of baseball. Look, Cutch was way underpaid (baseball wise) for the last 4-5 years, he is going to look to cash in, and as long as he keeps up what looks like a rejuvenation, he is going to get paid. Same with Cole, and I don't blame the Pirates for not going there. All we have to do is look at the Reds stuck with Joey Votto as the "face" of their franchise.

I am just saying, when the Pirates were playing in those WC games, when they won 98 games, they were immediately losing 3/5's of their rotation. They did absolutely nothing to address this. They needed a power hitting 1B. They did nothing here either. They got lucky with Kang, then unlucky. You play in the fringes and margins, well you get the good and the bad, sometimes at the same time.

But handing out big money, long term contracts to guys into their mid 30's is the epitome of stupidity for a franchise like the Pirates. So no.

 

[pittdan77]

We would be a very competitive team.

The Washington Capitals always field "very competitive" teams. So do the Cincinnati Bengals.

I don't think the Pirates are consistently close to either of those teams.

 

[Pittx9]

I think Glasnow and kuhl should both be relievers. Glasnow could get by with his limited arsenal if he was in the pen and kuhl just absolutely can not be in the rotation right now. 5 innings every start from a mediocre pitcher is flat out dragging the team down. Personally I'd rather have brault in the rotation right now.

 

[recruitsreadtheseboards]

I cannot believe Delpanther hasn't jumped all over the shill.

 

[DiehardPanther]

I think Glasnow and kuhl should both be relievers. Glasnow could get by with his limited arsenal if he was in the pen and kuhl just absolutely can not be in the rotation right now. 5 innings every start from a mediocre pitcher is flat out dragging the team down. Personally I'd rather have brault in the rotation right now.

I like the idea of Kuhl as a reliever. Glasnow is soft. He needs to toughen up, back hitters off the plate, work on his delivery so hitters cannot see the ball so easily, and not cave under pressure. He has some potential, but a lot of work to do.

 

[DiehardPanther]

That's not what I said or implied. At all. I am all for trading Cutch, especially if his value is high. I do understand the realities of baseball. Look, Cutch was way underpaid (baseball wise) for the last 4-5 years, he is going to look to cash in, and as long as he keeps up what looks like a rejuvenation, he is going to get paid. Same with Cole, and I don't blame the Pirates for not going there. All we have to do is look at the Reds stuck with Joey Votto as the "face" of their franchise.

I am just saying, when the Pirates were playing in those WC games, when they won 98 games, they were immediately losing 3/5's of their rotation. They did absolutely nothing to address this. They needed a power hitting 1B. They did nothing here either. They got lucky with Kang, then unlucky. You play in the fringes and margins, well you get the good and the bad, sometimes at the same time.

But handing out big money, long term contracts to guys into their mid 30's is the epitome of stupidity for a franchise like the Pirates. So no.

You were right when you said the Pirates should have made a serious push a few years back, but wrong about trading Cutch. Marte is only two years younger than Cutch, and Marte is suspended for PED's. He is a far riskier gamble than Cutch. Polanco has been a huge disappointment. Frazier is a butcher in the OF. They are still in contention this year, and will be better next year.

 

[Pittx9]

You were right when you said the Pirates should have made a serious push a few years back, but wrong about trading Cutch. Marte is only two years younger than Cutch, and Marte is suspended for PED's. He is a far riskier gamble than Cutch. Polanco has been a huge disappointment. Frazier is a butcher in the OF. They are still in contention this year, and will be better next year.

I'm certainly glad we didn't trade cutch yet. The season would already be over had they. As for this deadline or the off season we will have to see, but so far keeping him has really paid off.

 

[DiehardPanther]

I'm certainly glad we didn't trade cutch yet. The season would already be over had they. As for this deadline or the off season we will have to see, but so far keeping him has really paid off.

Nutting is a cheapskate. But if they must cut salary from the budget, then trade Cervelli to free up cash. He has been hurt a ton and has a big number for the Pirates. Cutch is a good player, the face of the franchise, and not that old.

 

[Rugger]

Sammy Khalifa will be a game changer for us.

 

[Pittx9]

Nutting is a cheapskate. But if they must cut salary from the budget, then trade Cervelli to free up cash. He has been hurt a ton and has a big number for the Pirates. Cutch is a good player, the face of the franchise, and not that old.

Absolutely. I just can't stand that everyone is so ready for meadows, it is nowhere near a sure thing he will produce in the big leagues. Cervelli is certainly expendable though, everything you mentioned plus... Diaz looks like he should be a solid player. I would have no problem with him getting a look as the starting catcher these last few months of the season.

 

[Delpanther]

Do you think the 2015 Royals were better than the 2015 Pirates? I dont. They both are bad now (and we wouldn't be without terrible luck this year). The royals are going to be bad for a while because they gambled on one year (and won) but still took a huge risk.

We will be competing for at least the WC for years to come. Huntington is human, he's not a fortune teller.

The royals have an owner who isn't cheap. That's not our reality. Hate it all you want. But face reality.

The Pirates blow...they won't be competing for anything until Nutsack sells the team

 

[Delpanther]

I cannot believe Delpanther hasn't jumped all over the shill.

I've been following all of this with amusement. I had Nutsack's number years ago and advised all the yinzer bobblehead boys that they were being abused and taken advantage of. The Pirates are a joke and will remain so as long as that rube from WV owns the team.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

I think Glasnow and kuhl should both be relievers. Glasnow could get by with his limited arsenal if he was in the pen and kuhl just absolutely can not be in the rotation right now.

Kuhl's problem if he goes to the bullpen would be the same as it is as a starter. None of his pitches can get left handed batters out on a consistent basis. I agree they need to get Brault up here, but they ought to send Kuhl back to the minors with the sole mission of finding some pitch that will allow him to get lefties out. Until then he's a well below average pitcher, whether he starts or comes out of the pen.

 

[Pittx9]

Kuhl's problem if he goes to the bullpen would be the same as it is as a starter. None of his pitches can get left handed batters out on a consistent basis. I agree they need to get Brault up here, but they ought to send Kuhl back to the minors with the sole mission of finding some pitch that will allow him to get lefties out. Until then he's a well below average pitcher, whether he starts or comes out of the pen.

I just meant for the future, maybe he just isn't a starter. But I couldn't agree more, he absolutely 100% should be in AAA at the moment.

 

[Ski11585]

I cannot believe Delpanther hasn't jumped all over the shill.

Because you're approaching this from such an unbiased point of view.