OT. Pirates trade
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Horwitz batted .265 last year, that would put him tied for 3rd with highest batting average if we are using last year's pirates numbers. of course that says more about the pirates than it does him but in today's game, .265 isnt bad at all..
Think the pirates are actually pretty deep with starting pitching so i dont hate it. but yeah, it's a typical "pirates like" deal where it's not moving the needle much.
The bad news, well ortiz is young with a high WAR so i think they got the better end of the deal. and that's straight up, not including the two prospects we gave. i'll be honest though, i dont know much about them.
It does put the "reynolds to 1st base" rumors to bed.
Think the pirates are actually pretty deep with starting pitching so i dont hate it. but yeah, it's a typical "pirates like" deal where it's not moving the needle much.
The bad news, well ortiz is young with a high WAR so i think they got the better end of the deal. and that's straight up, not including the two prospects we gave. i'll be honest though, i dont know much about them.
It does put the "reynolds to 1st base" rumors to bed.
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They weren’t rumors. He was actually doing work at 1B. This would seem to indicate to that’s not going to happen for now.
Yeah. Thats kinda my view. While they have excess starting pitchers Ortiz is younger than this dude and appears to have some upside. I think they could have gotten more if they traded him in season
And yeah while this dudes average is Ok he really doesn’t move the needle in terms of providing a power bat at a power position.
So while not a horrible trade it’s not a very good one either. Also the dude was a 27 year old rookie (last year). So not sure how much upside he has
I happened to hear yesterday there were many who thought the Bucs would end up with another dying player and sign Rizzo. So relatively speaking (which we do a lot of with the team), this is good.
And should he break out even a little they have control. Better they risk this way than another Rowdy like Rizzo.
Still exhausting regardless. Always a lottery ticket.
I think the guy they got is better than you’re making him out to be.
The only thing that surprised me about the trade was the Pirates having to throw in 2 prospects to get it done. Ortiz at 25 years old and Horowitz at 26 look to me to have similar resumes w/r to what they’ve done so far and potential for the future. Surprised they needed to throw in a prospect let alone two to get it done.
Just another in a long line of bums brought in to play first base ..year after year…replace one piece of trash with another.
My Gosh, I couldnt stand that FPOS. Dude has a shitty attitude to go along with his awful play.
Uh... am I crazy, or is 27 years old and only one full season of MLB service a bit of a red flag?
Selected in the 24th round of the draft out of college (i.e. not some high school kid who was a late developer) and then not being called up until a handful of years later at a not-so-young age screams flash in the pan to me. I'd be very skeptical.
Edit: Not even a full season of MLB service. 367 career at-bats? Geez.
Maybe the thinking is that they've struck out on making reclamation projects out of enough guys with pedigree (Tabata, Milledge, Davis, Snyder, Clement, and many others), so now they'll move on to trying to find a cheap, late-blooming steal from the bargain bin. That's cute. He can be our first baseman and hit 18 dingers, while the real teams have someone there who hits as many as him, Reynolds, and Cruz will combine for. Go Bucs.
Selected in the 24th round of the draft out of college (i.e. not some high school kid who was a late developer) and then not being called up until a handful of years later at a not-so-young age screams flash in the pan to me. I'd be very skeptical.
Edit: Not even a full season of MLB service. 367 career at-bats? Geez.
Maybe the thinking is that they've struck out on making reclamation projects out of enough guys with pedigree (Tabata, Milledge, Davis, Snyder, Clement, and many others), so now they'll move on to trying to find a cheap, late-blooming steal from the bargain bin. That's cute. He can be our first baseman and hit 18 dingers, while the real teams have someone there who hits as many as him, Reynolds, and Cruz will combine for. Go Bucs.
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yeah, that jumped out at me too. very odd to say the least and to expect some kind of huge upside from someone already 27, well i wouldnt expect much upside. he is what he is,
Yeah, I can think of plenty of dues the Pirates have brought over the years who have held their own for half a season and then just looked awful. The MLB pitchers barely even have a book on this guy, yet.
If they can't even go out and get two $20-$25M (try not to laugh) position players to go with Skenes and company, then that's just pathetic.
Well maybe it still will? Afterall, after this trade the Pirates still need a 1st baseman.
Sure. If the dude sucks yea I can see it happening. But I’m guessing they plan on this new guy being their every day guy. But if not then it’s yet another potential setback as I’m assuming they won’t be pursuing an every day left fielder. If ever there was a time to try and go for it with Skenes this is it, but it’ll be nickel and diming with lottery tickets most likely and hoping everything aligns.
right now, you have this guy and hayes at 1st and 3rd. throw in palacios in right field and those are 3 spots where most MLB teams expect power and well, those 3 combined MIGHT get you 30 hrs.
I'm fine with rolling with those three guys at those spots.
... as long as we're talking about the Altoona Curve.
we have a "small ball" roster but dont implement that into the system. they could learn to take walks, bunt, hit and run, move players over in order to work with this type of player but they dont, instead they ask hitters who average 12-15 hrs to try and hit for power..
how many close games did we lose in the first 1/2 of the season when our staff was killing it? How many games could we have won by simply laying down a sac bunt or moving someone over from 2nd to 3rd with 1 out. i know it's boring and outdated but this style of ball could work and well is our only real shot to be honest..
yet i can count on one hand how many sac bunts we were successful at and god forbid someone hit a ground ball to the right side of the infield with a runner on 2nd, cant for the life of me remember that ever happening..
Well sure. But when he signs with whoever, come back and let us know if you think the Pirates would have spent as much as whatever number it ends up being. Here’s a hint in the meantime - no.
I don't even know what our approach is at the plate, to be honest. It seems like we take an awful lot of early-count strikes.
Many Pirate fans were very happy with Joey Bart's performance last season. Horwitz performed similarly.
yeah, same average, .265, i actually am a Joey bart fan, finally moving on from henry davis as catcher. who knows what you do with him.
i dont think it's a bad trade, just weird this dude is 27 and has 325 career ABs and we had to give not only Ortiz but 2 additional pitching prospects.
Yeah it’s NOT a bad trade just a meh trade
Also Bart was a great college player and the second overall Pick Comparing his potential to this guy is a bit of a stretch He’s also not a Kade Bell we at 6’2” and 238.
Also the Pirates only gave up Austin Strickland to get Bart. Yeah me too. Who the heck is Austin Strickland. Ha
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League minimum salary the next two years, that is what caught the Pirates eyes. He may have been their number one target this off season with those numbers($$)
Yeah, I'm having trouble making sense of this. Ortiz has pitched in 59 career games and has a sub 4.00 ERA. He's also 25 years old. Who wouldn't want a starting pitcher like that in their rotation? And we traded him for a platoon first baseman... and somehow threw in two lottery tickets that Nutting can possible claim as charitable deductions. I'll gladly eat crow if this dude ends up being the answer at first base for the next multiple years, but this just reeks of a desperate franchise throwing something at the wall.
I don’t know how much untapped potential this Horowitz has but he must be viewed with some value by MLB teams. Didn’t the Guardians trade their young 26-year old gold glove 2nd basemen Andres Gomez plus some prospect to Toronto earlier in the day for Horowitz before turning around and moving Horowitz to the Pirates for Ortiz. Obviously that was all in the works ahead of time.
Gomez is widely considered one of the best if not the best defensive 2nd baseman in baseball and is under contract for another 7 years. Seems like Toronto wanted that defensive upgrade at 2nd, Cleveland obviously wanted starting pitching help and, yeah, the Pirates wanted a 1B.
Horowitz is no Pete Alonso but he must be viewed somewhat positively to be a piece in trades involving Gomez and Ortiz.
Gomez is widely considered one of the best if not the best defensive 2nd baseman in baseball and is under contract for another 7 years. Seems like Toronto wanted that defensive upgrade at 2nd, Cleveland obviously wanted starting pitching help and, yeah, the Pirates wanted a 1B.
Horowitz is no Pete Alonso but he must be viewed somewhat positively to be a piece in trades involving Gomez and Ortiz.
If this was all in the works ahead of time (which I agree with), wouldn't it be more like they traded Giminez for Oritz and some lotto picks?
... which makes it seem like the Pirates got the short of this this. If Giminez is considered fair trade value for Ortiz, then Horwitz certainly is not.
"Horowitz is no Pete Alonso but he must be viewed somewhat positively to be a piece in trades involving Giminez and Ortiz."
Almost seems like the Blue Jays and Guardians conspired into tricking the Pirates with this exact statement. "Hey, let's tell them Horwitz can be involved in a trade involving two young studs. They're dumb enough to not comprehend that it will be each of us ending up with one of the two studs in this trade, and they'll be left with a journeyman platoon guy."
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Gimenez is owed about $100 million. He has also had two very mediocre years at the plate.
Your take all sounds fine except that the Pirates didn’t need another primarily defense 2B, they already have other 2B not to mention a primarily defense 3B.
I’m not arguing the Pirates are right or big time winners in this, only that they obviously see more offensive potential in this guy than you or many others do. Time will tell.
Yeah, that’s why my response to Werewolf saying we should have just traded for Gomez instead of Horowitz that we didn’t need another primarily defense infielder m, how many of those do we have already.
Two issues with this:
1)Pirates are banking on 27 year old 5’10 1B with less than a year of big league experience
2) Even if that’s the guy they want, they need to negotiate better. They must suck at poker. Cleveland GM played them like fools. They should have told them Ortiz straight up is the deal, take it or leave it. Let them say no to a young power pitcher coming off a great season. I don't think the other 2 guys the Pirates threw in are anything to worry about, but why throw them in when you probably didn't need to, you just got out-negotiated.
1)Pirates are banking on 27 year old 5’10 1B with less than a year of big league experience
2) Even if that’s the guy they want, they need to negotiate better. They must suck at poker. Cleveland GM played them like fools. They should have told them Ortiz straight up is the deal, take it or leave it. Let them say no to a young power pitcher coming off a great season. I don't think the other 2 guys the Pirates threw in are anything to worry about, but why throw them in when you probably didn't need to, you just got out-negotiated.
They certainly still need someone to play first base against lefties.
Unless they are counting on a guy who couldn't hit them in the minors and hit .194/.272/.250 against them in the majors last year to suddenly figure it out at 27.
Color me skeptical.
That isn't even really close. Here are the salaries remaining on their two contracts:
Hayes
2025 $7 million
2026 $7 million
2027 $7 million
2028 $8 million
2029 $8 million
2030 $12 million team option
Gimenez
2025 $10.5 million
2026 $15.5 million
2027 $23.5 million
2028 $23.5 million
2029 $23.5 million
2030 $23 million team option
Those two contract are nothing at all alike. And just goes to show that when Pirates fans bitch about how much Hayes makes they are simply showing their ignorance of how much major league baseball players on real team that are actually trying to win make.
This is a very sad and typical move for the Buccos. It just shows you they are going to waste the Paul Skenes years without making an effort. They gave up a starting pitcher who was pretty decent for them last year. They also gave up 2 young arms who were rumored to both be top 20 prospects for the organization. In return they get a platoon 1st baseman that hit 12 homeruns, took a long time to break into the majors, and of course the Pirates maintain several years of control. It screams of Bob Nutsack cheapness and his unwillingness to go for a winner. Same old, same old. Pirate fans are masochists, their really is no hope here. Skenes probably can't wait to wear a different uniform. He is a winner misplaced with a franchise of losers!
I guess what I'm saying is that if there are two "proven commodities" in this trade, they are Ortiz and Giminez.
- The Blue Jays went from having none of them to having one of them
- The Guardians went from having one of them to having one of them
- The Pirates went from having one of them to having zero of them
Just sounds like yet another fleecing.
And maybe you could argue that Toronto lost when you factor in the financial perspective. But I'm talking about a strict personnel standpoint. Like, we just gave up a good 25-year-old starting pitcher to land a guy whose WAR was a half game better than Connor Joe's in a similar number of at-bats.
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