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OT: Pirates

I’m with you on your sentiment herein. Your example with Happ/ Niese was pretty close to a final breaking point for me. Don’t know why it wasn’t the ‘final’ breaking point but since I still casually follow them, and read/post in Pirate threads herein, it obviously wasn’t.

My non-Pirate friends tease me that I quit the Pirates over J.A. Happ lol. Never thought he'd be the hill I'd die on, especially after so many terrible years of Pirate baseball, but Jon Niese was really the last push that I needed to realize that Nutting truly didn't care about building an actual winner. Perhaps he'll luck into one some sunny day in the future, but it will be in spite of him if anything.
 
My non-Pirate friends tease me that I quit the Pirates over J.A. Happ lol. Never thought he'd be the hill I'd die on, especially after so many terrible years of Pirate baseball, but Jon Niese was really the last push that I needed to realize that Nutting truly didn't care about building an actual winner. Perhaps he'll luck into one some sunny day in the future, but it will be in spite of him if anything.
They’ve definitely unloaded better and bigger names because of $ but Happ may be the most recent and glaring example of not caring to maintain or add to a team that was competitive at the time. In other words, once you’re past the endless and repetitive cycle of rebuilding or just churning along in mediocrity and have a team that can compete for postseason play, spending the additional $ to take the next step and compete for a championship.
 
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My non-Pirate friends tease me that I quit the Pirates over J.A. Happ lol. Never thought he'd be the hill I'd die on, especially after so many terrible years of Pirate baseball, but Jon Niese was really the last push that I needed to realize that Nutting truly didn't care about building an actual winner. Perhaps he'll luck into one some sunny day in the future, but it will be in spite of him if anything.
The Pirates, aided and abetted by enough complicit media members, create the illusion of building a contender. Listen carefully to the broadcasters and the Zangrillis and Josh Taylors on The Fan. They dangle "the city view" from PNC Park as if it is something you can see only from inside the facility. Has that scenic landscape changed in 21 years, substantially? No. And neither have the Buccos.

And then they tease with the "hope" over here. Get giddy over the results from Class A and AA. Spin the modest developmental successes of the past into fool's gold. Taylor, who co-authors a preseason prospectus on the Pirates, is hardly impartial about the team.

I'm old enough to have lived through the high cotton of 1970-79 and 90-92 and relished the last sweet taste of success in 2013-15. I'm also old enough to know a con when I see one. Nutting is content to cash in as he will. My advice is to ignore them completely or enjoy them for the entertainment they provide. But keep your dreams realistic.
 
The Pirates, aided and abetted by enough complicit media members, create the illusion of building a contender. Listen carefully to the broadcasters and the Zangrillis and Josh Taylors on The Fan. They dangle "the city view" from PNC Park as if it is something you can see only from inside the facility. Has that scenic landscape changed in 21 years, substantially? No. And neither have the Buccos.

And then they tease with the "hope" over here. Get giddy over the results from Class A and AA. Spin the modest developmental successes of the past into fool's gold. Taylor, who co-authors a preseason prospectus on the Pirates, is hardly impartial about the team.

I'm old enough to have lived through the high cotton of 1970-79 and 90-92 and relished the last sweet taste of success in 2013-15. I'm also old enough to know a con when I see one. Nutting is content to cash in as he will. My advice is to ignore them completely or enjoy them for the entertainment they provide. But keep your dreams realistic.

I was at the last home Pirates playoff game prior to 2013. In between the Pirates making the playoffs I:

- completed grades 1-12;
- 4 years of college;
- 4 years in the military, 2 deployments; and
- 3 years in law school.

It was my entire youth spent waiting for the Pirates to be relevant again. And Nutting pissed it away at the literal first opportunity instead of just making the most modest offer of $12 million for Happ (they paid Niese $6 million so really they gutted their pitching to net $6 million). There's no need for me or any rational person to show loyalty to the Pirates. Like you said, it's fine to enjoy them but you have to accept that you're basically rooting for some WWF jobber that's taking on the Undertaker.
 
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The futility of the Pirates isn't all that unusual. I mean, look at Cleveland and their sports teams. I think what makes the Pirates unique is that they have managed to convince a certain segment of fans that they are trying and to hang in their because this time it's different. It would be fun to know what other fan bases have this sub-culture of believers when it's obvious nothing is changing. Maybe the Flyers?
 
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The futility of the Pirates isn't all that unusual. I mean, look at Cleveland and their sports teams. I think what makes the Pirates unique is that they have managed to convince a certain segment of fans that they are trying and to hang in their because this time it's different. It would be fun to know what other fan bases have this sub-culture of believers when it's obvious nothing is changing. Maybe the Flyers?
i dont know, i dont think too many pirate fans really think that. Nutting literally cant go to pirate fest because he fears for his safety.. im a pirate fan but i like baseball and im from pittsburgh. everyone says, "dont go, dont watch" but i like it and well, that's it. i like baseball so its either eat this crap or die of starvation.

but i disagree with your belief that there is a segment of pirate fans that believes in this ownership.. i'd bet if you interviewed every pirate fan, 95% would be for a new owner..
 
i dont know, i dont think too many pirate fans really think that. Nutting literally cant go to pirate fest because he fears for his safety.. im a pirate fan but i like baseball and im from pittsburgh. everyone says, "dont go, dont watch" but i like it and well, that's it. i like baseball so its either eat this crap or die of starvation.

but i disagree with your belief that there is a segment of pirate fans that believes in this ownership.. i'd bet if you interviewed every pirate fan, 95% would be for a new owner..
I'm going by my twitter feed. Incredible number of people rush to the team's defense over every dumb move.
 
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i dont know, i dont think too many pirate fans really think that. Nutting literally cant go to pirate fest because he fears for his safety.. im a pirate fan but i like baseball and im from pittsburgh. everyone says, "dont go, dont watch" but i like it and well, that's it. i like baseball so its either eat this crap or die of starvation.

but i disagree with your belief that there is a segment of pirate fans that believes in this ownership.. i'd bet if you interviewed every pirate fan, 95% would be for a new owner..

This is definitely my stance on things. I like baseball. I grew up a Pirates fan. My choices are to root for the Pirates or not watch. I'm not under any delusions that Nutting is suddenly going to turn into George Steinbrener. But that 98 win season is the most fun season I've had as a fan ever. Topping the 08-09 Pitt hoops squad.
 
The Pirates took a LH from New Jersey named Anthony Solometo. Their they go again. With the 37th pick, they managed to screw it up and select a kid that MLB.com had rated as the 17th best prospect in this draft. Bleeping Nutting at it again!
I’m confused. Coverage seemed to make a deal out of the Pirates getting 17th best rated prospect at the 37th pick. But what I just read is that their 4th pick at #72 is the 20th best rated prospect?
 
Yeah, they took two football commits (white/chandler) who dropped in the draft because of that. They are going to use the money saved from 1-1 to throw it at these guys to get them off of their football commitments.
 
I’m confused. Coverage seemed to make a deal out of the Pirates getting 17th best rated prospect at the 37th pick. But what I just read is that their 4th pick at #72 is the 20th best rated prospect?
Yes. And it depends on what service, but Baseball America (well respected) has the Pirates selecting 4 of the top 32 players with their first 4 picks. How does this happen? Some teams don't want to risk taking guys who have options like playing college football. But yeah, on MLB.com, the Pirates selected 3 of their top 20 prospects.

So if they sign all of these guys, it is one helluva haul!
 
Yes. And it depends on what service, but Baseball America (well respected) has the Pirates selecting 4 of the top 32 players with their first 4 picks. How does this happen? Some teams don't want to risk taking guys who have options like playing college football. But yeah, on MLB.com, the Pirates selected 3 of their top 20 prospects.

So if they sign all of these guys, it is one helluva haul!
Yeah, it makes sense where they got em based on their college FB options.

Risky but will be great if they can sign them. I have no problem with the strategy.

From a PR standpoint, likely not a bad move by the Pirates. I can see the press heaping praise on them for ‘swinging for the fences’ and not giving them much negative blowback if they can’t get the signature.

my guess, the Penn State recruit may be the tougher of the 2 to sign.
 
Yeah, it makes sense where they got em based on their college FB options.

Risky but will be great if they can sign them. I have no problem with the strategy.

From a PR standpoint, likely not a bad move by the Pirates. I can see the press heaping praise on them for ‘swinging for the fences’ and not giving them much negative blowback if they can’t get the signature.

my guess, the Penn State recruit may be the tougher of the 2 to sign.
Based on some of the opinions here, PSU will just use the NIL to get a big donor to pay the difference.
 
Yes. And it depends on what service, but Baseball America (well respected) has the Pirates selecting 4 of the top 32 players with their first 4 picks. How does this happen? Some teams don't want to risk taking guys who have options like playing college football. But yeah, on MLB.com, the Pirates selected 3 of their top 20 prospects.

So if they sign all of these guys, it is one helluva haul!
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut occasionally.
I would wait about 5 years before I do any victory laps 🤣
 
Well it's easy to illustrate with the number one pick. The slot value of the number one pick is $8.4 million. The slot value of number two is $7.8 million, number three is $7.2 million, and so on. If you are one of potentially five guys who could be picked number one you could fall into a slot of anywhere from $8.4 million to $6.2 million. Or, like Jordan Lawler you could fall to six ($5.7 million), or like Kumar Rocker you could fall to ten ($4.7 million). So the Pirates go to the top guy they are looking at and ask him what it will take to sign him. If he says the full $8.4 million then the Pirates move on to the next guy, and that guy isn't going to get $8.4 million, or even close to it, from anyone else.

So maybe they went to Davis and he said he'd take $7.4 million. That saves the Pirates $1 million to spend on someone else, and it also ensures Davis that he is going to probably get more money, maybe even a lot more money, than he will if he just lets the chips fall where they may.

Since they went to a slotting system there is only one overall number one pick who did not give the team that drafted him a discount on the full slot value. Because the proverbial dollar in the hand is worth two in the bush. If Davis' people think that he could fall as far as 5th, then any dollars they get him over the slot value for being taken fifth is more money than what he would likely get if he just lets it play out.
terrific explanation!
 
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This is definitely my stance on things. I like baseball. I grew up a Pirates fan. My choices are to root for the Pirates or not watch. I'm not under any delusions that Nutting is suddenly going to turn into George Steinbrener. But that 98 win season is the most fun season I've had as a fan ever. Topping the 08-09 Pitt hoops squad.
My favorite is when Nutting says the payroll will increase once the attendance increases.:)
 
My favorite is when Nutting says the payroll will increase once the attendance increases.:)
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That catcher is going to look great in 5 to 6 years as a DH for the Yankees or Boston. There is none and never will be the gold at the end of the Nutbags rainbow
 
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That catcher is going to look great in 5 to 6 years as a DH for the Yankees or Boston. There is none and never will be the gold at the end of the Nutbags rainbow
Here’s what I don’t get about this narrative: It’s not about Nutting and it never was about Nutting.

Everyone already knows he won’t spend any money, so it’s on management to win with the group that comes up in the short time they’re here. That’s the only play you have as a small market team. There’s a reason why the Royals won the World Series in 2015 while the Pirates lost in the Wild Card. They never pulled the trigger on Price, Lester, or any of the other names they were tied to from 2013-15. They didn’t want to sell the farm because they were “thinking about the present and future,” but the fact is you only get one or two chances to win with a group before they sign elsewhere or are traded away. The future will stink either way once that window shuts, so why not go all-in?

Huntington failed to realize this, but Cherington’s overall resume and performance up to this point gives me hope he won’t make the same mistake when the time comes.
 
Here’s what I don’t get about this narrative: It’s not about Nutting and it never was about Nutting.

Everyone already knows he won’t spend any money, so it’s on management to win with the group that comes up in the short time they’re here. That’s the only play you have as a small market team. There’s a reason why the Royals won the World Series in 2015 while the Pirates lost in the Wild Card. They never pulled the trigger on Price, Lester, or any of the other names they were tied to from 2013-15. They didn’t want to sell the farm because they were “thinking about the present and future,” but the fact is you only get one or two chances to win with a group before they sign elsewhere or are traded away. The future will stink either way once that window shuts, so why not go all-in?

Huntington failed to realize this, but Cherington’s overall resume and performance up to this point gives me hope he won’t make the same mistake when the time comes.
And the Tampa owner never spends either, there’s a formula for management teams to win without the support of the owner. Draft and develop well, sell high on your players (Blake Snell, Chris Archer) and scout well enough to win your trades
 
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Early word is that next yrs draft has some "franchise" caliber prospects at the top. Ben will be adding another top prospect to the system with a top 3-5 pick. People are saying we'll have the best farm soon after the trade deadline and next yrs draft. The key now will be developing these guys. That's where NH team failed miserably. He built what people thought was a top 3 farm around 2013/14(glasnow, Polonco, Hanson, Tallion, Kingham etc..) and we all saw what that turned into.
 
And the Tampa owner never spends either, there’s a formula for management teams to win without the support of the owner. Draft and develop well, sell high on your players (Blake Snell, Chris Archer) and scout well enough to win your trades
KC had a payroll right at the league average when they won and Tampa didn't really build with the draft. Only five players on their roster came up through the system. They are doing a unique spin on things but it remains to be seen if it is sustainable or successful. Boston can go get a player. Tampa won't. That's usually the difference.
 
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Early word is that next yrs draft has some "franchise" caliber prospects at the top. Ben will be adding another top prospect to the system with a top 3-5 pick. People are saying we'll have the best farm soon after the trade deadline and next yrs draft. The key now will be developing these guys. That's where NH team failed miserably. He built what people thought was a top 3 farm around 2013/14(glasnow, Polonco, Hanson, Tallion, Kingham etc..) and we all saw what that turned into.
It would be nigh impossible for Cherington NOT to exceed the meager successes of Huntington and Littlefield. But Nutting the Frugal clenches the purse strings tightly. Jaded Buc fans seem to be avoiding the Best Ballpark in Baseball; I wonder what the weekend sales numbers were outside 412/724. I've been to a handful of games this year myself, but I am not in any rush to get down there.
 
Yeah, they took two football commits (white/chandler) who dropped in the draft because of that. They are going to use the money saved from 1-1 to throw it at these guys to get them off of their football commitments.
It looks like they may not be able to sign Lonnie White based on the bonus money they have left. I’m not an expert on this stuff, hopefully I’m wrong.
 
Goodbye Frazier!


Now, did I read that right? Frazier AND $1.4 million in cash for the proverbial "prospects"?
 
Goodbye Frazier!


Now, did I read that right? Frazier AND $1.4 million in cash for the proverbial "prospects"?
Hey! San Diego wanted $3 million.
 
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This is how it works when you are "rebuilding".
I guess they coveted the Venezuelan kid, and so did the Padres to an extent. That is what the $$ did, loosened them up.
The other two guys are ??, as are all prospects, but the OF has an OPS better than the Pirates best power prospect in their own farm system.
If he pans out, they traded a 29 year old Frazier for a 21 year old version with more years of control.

Stay tuned, Anderson and Rodriguez are on deck. Anderson is going to fetch more than people think because of his contract and the fact that he is a LH starter.

Now if they could only get rid of Kerplunko. I'm afraid he started this little surge too late.

The only thing left to do is to finish last in MLB again so they can load up in next year's draft too!
 
This is how it works when you are "rebuilding".
I guess they coveted the Venezuelan kid, and so did the Padres to an extent. That is what the $$ did, loosened them up.
The other two guys are ??, as are all prospects, but the OF has an OPS better than the Pirates best power prospect in their own farm system.
If he pans out, they traded a 29 year old Frazier for a 21 year old version with more years of control.

Stay tuned, Anderson and Rodriguez are on deck. Anderson is going to fetch more than people think because of his contract and the fact that he is a LH starter.

Now if they could only get rid of Kerplunko. I'm afraid he started this little surge too late.

The only thing left to do is to finish last in MLB again so they can load up in next year's draft too!
 
This is how it works when you are "rebuilding".
I guess they coveted the Venezuelan kid, and so did the Padres to an extent. That is what the $$ did, loosened them up.
The other two guys are ??, as are all prospects, but the OF has an OPS better than the Pirates best power prospect in their own farm system.
If he pans out, they traded a 29 year old Frazier for a 21 year old version with more years of control.

Stay tuned, Anderson and Rodriguez are on deck. Anderson is going to fetch more than people think because of his contract and the fact that he is a LH starter.

Now if they could only get rid of Kerplunko. I'm afraid he started this little surge too late.

The only thing left to do is to finish last in MLB again so they can load up in next year's draft too!

You are correct about Anderson. Those signings don't always pan out (Cahill) but this one certainly did.

And you never know about Polanco. Some team could be desperate enough to take a flyer. The return would be negligible but still...
 
Must be something about Wrigley Field????

"Smith lofted a fly ball towards center field and a waiting Alou. Bob Prince, deploying the "can of corn" metaphor that he used to describe fly balls bound for the leathery fate of an outfielder’s glove, informed the television audience, "Well, there goes 210 pounds of golden bantam." As reported by Charley Feeney in the next morning's Pittsburgh Post-Gazette:

Alou waved his arms signaling he had the ball under control. Blass leaped off the mound. The wind carried the ball toward the infield and Alou followed it. It seemed like a routine catch. Matty decided to one hand it.
The ball hit his glove and bounced out. Blass stood on the mound, seemingly in a daze. Smith, the tying run, was on second base and Ken Rudolph went in to run for him."

The Pirates went on to lose the game, and almost blew their precarious lead in the NL East!!!
 
You are correct about Anderson. Those signings don't always pan out (Cahill) but this one certainly did.

And you never know about Polanco. Some team could be desperate enough to take a flyer. The return would be negligible but still...
The biggest return would be to get that salary off the books.
 
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This is how it works when you are "rebuilding".
I guess they coveted the Venezuelan kid, and so did the Padres to an extent. That is what the $$ did, loosened them up.
The other two guys are ??, as are all prospects, but the OF has an OPS better than the Pirates best power prospect in their own farm system.
If he pans out, they traded a 29 year old Frazier for a 21 year old version with more years of control.

Stay tuned, Anderson and Rodriguez are on deck. Anderson is going to fetch more than people think because of his contract and the fact that he is a LH starter.

Now if they could only get rid of Kerplunko. I'm afraid he started this little surge too late.

The only thing left to do is to finish last in MLB again so they can load up in next year's draft too!
I don't know why this is so surprising for people. I don't know why this draws scorn and outrage. Frazier would be leaving after next year anyways, he is a good player, but not a difference maker. People say "well Nutting should sign him", but the thing is...even if there was a salary cap, you have to make decisions on who to sign and who to let go. That is why you hope to have a farm system to develop and replenish.

I mean, until MLB has a cap/floor/revenue sharing like the other leagues, this cycle of trying to build up for 3 year run then burn it down like most teams within our market range is modus operandi. The issue with Nutting, the legit complaint IMO, is not the "burning it down" but when you are in that 3 year window, you max your ability to win a title. That is when you spend outside of your comfort zone. That's when you make a trade for an Adam Frazier or god forbid, a Chris Archer in his prime....
 
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