OT: Pirates

[TheWerewolfFromTwilight]

I thought there was a somewhat active Pirates thread on here already, but I can't find it, so I apologize if I'm duplicating something that already exists on the board. But where do we go with this #1 pick? Outfielder form LSU or pitcher from Tennessee?

Personally, I've about had my fill of sub-6' outfielders. But if we're trading Reynolds, well, there might be a vacancy at the inn. Tough call as of now. Just curious what the people who follow more than I do think.

 

[Dointhatrag]

Well Reynolds requested a trade and the response fromt he team was basically " that's nice, we will do what is best for the team and your statement plays no role into this. We were able to close the book a few weeks ago on the Kevin Newman first round draft pick.

Our big move was to pick up a 36 year old first baseman who hit .202 last year.

 

[Las Panteras]

I see where Jack Wilsons kid is #4 prospect this year and he's a shortstop. So in Buccoland, he checks two boxes. I mean.....havent the pirates drafted 433 middle infielders lately?

So sure, the Bucs will take him

Give me the pitcher from Tennessee. This team needs more arms

 

[pittdan77]

Isn't this where the Pirates skip over a bunch of guys and draft a catcher because he's going to be easier to sign?

 

[TheWerewolfFromTwilight]

Isn't this where the Pirates skip over a bunch of guys and draft a catcher because he's going to be easier to sign?

Psh, ain't no more of that now that they've instituted all this slotted value stuff. Although I'm still not 100% clear on how it works with only being able to devote X amounts of dollars to the first Y rounds. I just know the days of Bryan Bullington are behind us.

 

[NCanton Panther]

I thought there was a somewhat active Pirates thread on here already, but I can't find it, so I apologize if I'm duplicating something that already exists on the board. But where do we go with this #1 pick? Outfielder form LSU or pitcher from Tennessee?

Personally, I've about had my fill of sub-6' outfielders. But if we're trading Reynolds, well, there might be a vacancy at the inn. Tough call as of now. Just curious what the people who follow more than I do think.

That’s funny, they’ll have a vacancy in the OF because of trading Reynolds. Newsbreak, they have vacancies everywhere, unless you want to consider SS not a vacancy because of all the recent draft picks at that position. But then again, we know how all the prior SS draft picks worked out.

 

[MJG-90]

Isn't this where the Pirates skip over a bunch of guys and draft a catcher because he's going to be easier to sign?

The logic is that by signing the 5th or 6th best player for well under slot, they have extra money to sign players over slot who might be committed to college or whatever. The Pirates have spent what they are allowed to spend on the draft in recent years. That’s not the problem. The problem has been a combination of poor scouting, bad drafting and terrible development.

 

[Dan1911]

Pirates lost nine in the minor league portion of the rule 5 draft. Seems like a lot to lose. What's the purpose of trading good players for a lot of little.leaguers if you have to leave them unprotected?

 

[forbesfield]

Pirates lost nine in the minor league portion of the rule 5 draft. Seems like a lot to lose. What's the purpose of trading good players for a lot of little.leaguers if you have to leave them unprotected?

I saw that. Complete madness. Then when it was there turn to pick in the minor league phase, they picked up a couple of AAAA guys who've been in the majors, just to fill out the AAA roster. As usual, the Pirates are idiots at everything.

 

[sonofabit]

No generational talent available with the lucky lottery. Figures. Another Harper would have been nice. My guess is the centerfielder from Fla. And how about Quintana getting $26 mil from the Mets? Pays for players to come to PNC for a few months to improve their stock or resurrect their careers. And Taillon goes to the Cubs $15+mil/yr. Pirates will have to catch lightning in one year because they’ll never pony up to keep a team intact.

 

[sonofabit]

Padres committing over a $billion for their core players. Even the Red Sox can’t play in this man’s game. Tre Turner to the Phillies for what?..ridiculous money. Almost Saudi- like infusion of money into this madness.

 

[pittdan77]

The logic is that by signing the 5th or 6th best player for well under slot, they have extra money to sign players over slot who might be committed to college or whatever. The Pirates have spent what they are allowed to spend on the draft in recent years. That’s not the problem. The problem has been a combination of poor scouting, bad drafting and terrible development.

I have no idea how slotting works in MLB but as sure as I'm alive and breathing, the Pirates will not make a decision that involves winning.

 

[TheWerewolfFromTwilight]

Padres committing over a $billion for their core players. Even the Red Sox can’t play in this man’s game. Tre Turner to the Phillies for what?..ridiculous money. Almost Saudi- like infusion of money into this madness.

The good thing is that a lot of these contracts include so many non-productive years. In 5 years, Judge will be on par with some journey who makes $5M/year. So some of these payroll numbers are just grossly inflated figures that compensate past performance.

 

[MJG-90]

I have no idea how slotting works in MLB but as sure as I'm alive and breathing, the Pirates will not make a decision that involves winning.

I agree. It’s depressing. I get being a small market team without a huge tv contract. But spend more money on scouting and development so at least we get to see a better roster every few years before those players demand trades.

 

[pittdan77]

I agree. It’s depressing. I get being a small market team without a huge tv contract. But spend more money on scouting and development so at least we get to see a better roster every few years before those players demand trades.

That part isn't even as frustrating as what happens when they are within reach. Refusing to take a shot at winning and upgrade a position or two when the club actually has a shot is the ultimate slap in the face. At best, the player taken will be exciting for everyone for a few years and we'll all have to sit by and watch the guy play out the club's control before moving somewhere decent. The franchise is toxic and I have to imagine that hearing the Pirates call your name in the draft feels like a waste of your early career.

 

[ratking17]

They are a joke. They spent the past couple days on social media bragging about having the #1 pick. Joke of a franchise

 

[h2p_5150]

I agree. It’s depressing. I get being a small market team without a huge tv contract. But spend more money on scouting and development so at least we get to see a better roster every few years before those players demand trades.

There is no such thing as a team without a huge TV contract. The national TV/streaming deal pays every team a ton of money every year. San Diego is not a large market by any stretch. Their owner cares about winning baseball games though. There are big market teams who don't try, and small market teams that spend big. It comes down to whether your team is owned by a profiteer or a rich guy who wants to win baseball games. The majority of teams are owned by guys who are happy to cash the easy money and invest the bare minimum.

 

[Pitt79]

Give me the pitcher from Tennessee. This team needs more arms

Stephen A. Smith said the Yankees need pitchers so, yeah, get a pitcher for the 2028 Yankees

 

[TheWerewolfFromTwilight]

There is no such thing as a team without a huge TV contract. The national TV/streaming deal pays every team a ton of money every year. San Diego is not a large market by any stretch. Their owner cares about winning baseball games though. There are big market teams who don't try, and small market teams that spend big. It comes down to whether your team is owned by a profiteer or a rich guy who wants to win baseball games. The majority of teams are owned by guys who are happy to cash the easy money and invest the bare minimum.

Yeah, I wanna say the Indians did a few things that put them in the red back when they were contenders in 2016 or whenever that was. Their owner just valued winning and was willing to dip into his personal funds to do so.

The best we can do here is buy out arbitration years for a select few players and then find reclamation projects off the scrap heap. I still think there's a formula to being able to win in our situation, if it's done right. But the margin for error is definitely much less.

 

[HailToPitt725]

They are a joke. They spent the past couple days on social media bragging about having the #1 pick. Joke of a franchise

I’m not going to defend the Pirates’ roster moves (or lack thereof), but pretty much every time across professional sports does that on social media after they win the draft lottery. They had the third-best odds and won the first overall pick; I think that’s cause to celebrate.

 

[HailToPitt725]

Yeah, I wanna say the Indians did a few things that put them in the red back when they were contenders in 2016 or whenever that was. Their owner just valued winning and was willing to dip into his personal funds to do so.

The best we can do here is buy out arbitration years for a select few players and then find reclamation projects off the scrap heap. I still think there's a formula to being able to win in our situation, if it's done right. But the margin for error is definitely much less.

While Dolan did spend more than what he normally did, what allowed them to take that next step was bringing on John Sherman as a minority partner. Once Sherman left the group to pursue buying the Royals, the payroll dipped again.

I believe the Guardians brought on another minority ownership group during the summer that has an option to purchase the team outright in a couple years, so that explains them handing out the Josh Bell contract. Expect their payroll to go up even more in the coming years. They came on because they want to renovate Progressive Field and develop the land around it; definitely a lot of layers to it.

Edit: unfortunately, it doesn’t seem like Nutting wants to bring on any significant partners.

 

[TheWerewolfFromTwilight]

While Dolan did spend more than what he normally did, what allowed them to take that next step was bringing on John Sherman as a minority partner. Once Sherman left the group to pursue buying the Royals, the payroll dipped again.

I believe the Guardians brought on another minority ownership group during the summer that has an option to purchase the team outright in a couple years, so that explains them handing out the Josh Bell contract. Expect their payroll to go up even more in the coming years. They came on because they want to renovate Progressive Field and develop the land around it; definitely a lot of layers to it.

I thought I remembered reading that signing Encarnacion the year after their WS run put them at a loss, but I could be totally off.

Still, I've long said that instead of spending 50, 60, 70, 50, 40, 50 I would rather see the Pirates spend 20, 20, 20, 80, 100, 120 and be mindful of their windows. Nothing irks me more than when they go out and throw money at some vet who will allow them to win 62 games instead of 60. Not that Nutting would reinvest any savings in the team anyway.

 

[HailToPitt725]

I thought I remembered reading that signing Encarnacion the year after their WS run put them at a loss, but I could be totally off.

Still, I've long said that instead of spending 50, 60, 70, 50, 40, 50 I would rather see the Pirates spend 20, 20, 20, 80, 100, 120 and be mindful of their windows. Nothing irks me more than when they go out and throw money at some vet who will allow them to win 62 games instead of 60. Not that Nutting would reinvest any savings in the team anyway.

You’re correct. I think Sherman stayed on until 2019 or so when the Royals became available. And yes, I agree re: Nutting and the payroll. We don’t ask them to be some of the biggest spenders in the league, or even spend every year. Just be willing to spend what’s necessary to win when the time comes.

 

[Pitt79]

I thought I remembered reading that signing Encarnacion the year after their WS run put them at a loss, but I could be totally off.

Still, I've long said that instead of spending 50, 60, 70, 50, 40, 50 I would rather see the Pirates spend 20, 20, 20, 80, 100, 120 and be mindful of their windows. Nothing irks me more than when they go out and throw money at some vet who will allow them to win 62 games instead of 60. Not that Nutting would reinvest any savings in the team anyway.

That year they won 98 games, they should have spent right at that moment for 2-3 years and see what happens, and if they fail so what, drop all the salaries and go cheap after you try to capitalize on a good group of players.

 

[HailToPitt725]

That year they won 98 games, they should have spent right at that moment for 2-3 years and see what happens, and if they fail so what, drop all the salaries and go cheap after you try to capitalize on a good group of players.

Since we moved to KC in 2014, I’ll always compare the Pirates and the Royals in that 2015 season.

One team was hesitant to make big trades to put them over the edge, the other went all-in and sold the farm on players like Cueto and Zobrist. One team lost in the Wild Card, the other won the World Series.

Fans here aren’t too upset that they’ve stunk the past six years because they got something out of it. When your window of opportunity comes, you need to make the most of it!

 

[Panther Holla]

Netting’s penny pinching surely pervades every level of the organization down to the rookie leagues. He skimps on big league salaries. He hires a nonentity as manager and a bunch of no name assistants. His free agents are retreads, has beens or misfit toys. Isn‘t it logical to conclude that the scouting, analytics and player development groups are likewise done on the cheap?

 

[Dan1911]

Stockpiling lottery tickets only to give them away en masse at the rule 5 minor league draft is indefensible and speaks to there being no coherent plan.

 

[pittdan77]

Stockpiling lottery tickets only to give them away en masse at the rule 5 minor league draft is indefensible and speaks to there being no coherent plan.

Turning a profit is the only plan. The rest is there just to make things look good.

 

[forbesfield]

Stockpiling lottery tickets only to give them away en masse at the rule 5 minor league draft is indefensible and speaks to there being no coherent plan.

I cannot upvote this enough.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

Then when it was there turn to pick in the minor league phase, they picked up a couple of AAAA guys who've been in the majors, just to fill out the AAA roster. As usual, the Pirates are idiots at everything.

What do you think the guys that the Pirates lost are? Not one of those guys was on anyone's top 30 Pirates' prospect list. They lost a bunch of guys who have almost no chance to ever make the majors to teams who are looking to fill out there AA and AAA rosters.

They had open spots on their minor league roster, meaning that they could have protected several of those guys if they wanted to. They didn't think that any of them were worth it. We will eventually find out if they were right or not, but it's a lot more likely that they will be right and none of those guys will make the majors than they will be wrong and one of those guys turns out to be even a poor major leaguer.

 

[Dan1911]

They trade away talent to amass these guys. If they are worthless, maybe they should stop breaking $1 bills into four quarters.

 

[TempleBAPittMPA]

The second coming of Kevin Polcovich will arrive any day now.

 

[forbesfield]

What do you think the guys that the Pirates lost are? Not one of those guys was on anyone's top 30 Pirates' prospect list. They lost a bunch of guys who have almost no chance to ever make the majors to teams who are looking to fill out there AA and AAA rosters.

They had open spots on their minor league roster, meaning that they could have protected several of those guys if they wanted to. They didn't think that any of them were worth it. We will eventually find out if they were right or not, but it's a lot more likely that they will be right and none of those guys will make the majors than they will be wrong and one of those guys turns out to be even a poor major leaguer.

Dude, they trade away real talent to get these people. And then they don't bother to protect them. Maybe they suck, maybe they don't, but they are allowed to protect 38. They protected 31. For no good reason. Except, maybe, that when these guys are claimed they get paid some small amount of money. But I'm sure you think that is just a coincidence.

 

[Joe the Panther Fan]

Dude, they trade away real talent to get these people. And then they don't bother to protect them. Maybe they suck, maybe they don't, but they are allowed to protect 38. They protected 31. For no good reason. Except, maybe, that when these guys are claimed they get paid some small amount of money. But I'm sure you think that is just a coincidence.

Dude, the Pirates lost 11 guys in the minor league phase of the rule five draft. The total number of those 11 players the Pirates acquired by trade was, hold on a second, let me count them up, hmm, well, that didn't take long. The total number is 0.

The Pirates did not trade away anyone for any of the 11 guys they lost. Not one.

But I'm sure you think that is just a coincidence.

There are so many things to rip on the Pirates for, there is no need to just make stuff up. Which is exactly what you just did.

They didn't protect those guys because they don't think that any of them will ever be a major league player. They may be wrong or they may be right, but if they are wrong it will be exceeding rare. Almost no one ever taken in the minor league portion of the rule five draft ever plays even one game in the majors. These guys are minor league filler. Nothing more.

 

[jtownknowitall]

Dude, the Pirates lost 11 guys in the minor league phase of the rule five draft. The total number of those 11 players the Pirates acquired by trade was, hold on a second, let me count them up, hmm, well, that didn't take long. The total number is 0.

The Pirates did not trade away anyone for any of the 11 guys they lost. Not one.

But I'm sure you think that is just a coincidence.

There are so many things to rip on the Pirates for, there is no need to just make stuff up. Which is exactly what you just did.

They didn't protect those guys because they don't think that any of them will ever be a major league player. They may be wrong or they may be right, but if they are wrong it will be exceeding rare. Almost no one ever taken in the minor league portion of the rule five draft ever plays even one game in the majors. These guys are minor league filler. Nothing more.

So they were bad draft picks?

 

[caleco's]

Here's an idea, trade that effin pick and rebuild the minor league system. They suck at drafting and don't want to pay out guaranteed to bonuses to top draft picks.....so dont do it and increase your odds by trading for proven players that can help the system. That puts them 2 -3 years ahead by taking kids that have those years of development already. They can't wait for 2-3 years for these kids to develop. THEY COULD GET 3 TO 4 STRONG PROSPECTS FOR THAT PICK

 

[forbesfield]

Dude, the Pirates lost 11 guys in the minor league phase of the rule five draft. The total number of those 11 players the Pirates acquired by trade was, hold on a second, let me count them up, hmm, well, that didn't take long. The total number is 0.

The Pirates did not trade away anyone for any of the 11 guys they lost. Not one.

But I'm sure you think that is just a coincidence.

There are so many things to rip on the Pirates for, there is no need to just make stuff up. Which is exactly what you just did.

They didn't protect those guys because they don't think that any of them will ever be a major league player. They may be wrong or they may be right, but if they are wrong it will be exceeding rare. Almost no one ever taken in the minor league portion of the rule five draft ever plays even one game in the majors. These guys are minor league filler. Nothing more.

Funny how teams that know what they are doing still want minor league filler from the Pirates. Who will still need to go out and get more minor league filler. Defend them if you must, but that's generally a fruitless exercise. Even Cherington admitted that he was surprised to lose so many of these guys.

 

[Dan1911]

Can't trade picks in baseball, if I remember correctly...unless that's a new thing.

 

[TheWerewolfFromTwilight]

Can't trade picks in baseball, if I remember correctly...unless that's a new thing.

They shouldn't trade it anyway, in my opinion. Baseball is pretty star-centric. You need to have at least 7-8 really good players. The difference between the rest doesn't matter as much - a young so-so player or a so-so veteran are fairly interchangeable. I'd get the pitched from Tennessee and be done with it.

 

[Rupart33]

Funny how teams that know what they are doing still want minor league filler from the Pirates. Who will still need to go out and get more minor league filler. Defend them if you must, but that's generally a fruitless exercise. Even Cherington admitted that he was surprised to lose so many of these guys.

The Pirates only protected 31 players as they thought they would be able to select enough to fill up the extra 7 slots. Instead, they apparently mis-read the landscape and ended up losing 11 and only taking 2. Only 2-3 seem to have major league potential, but still, not a good look for the Buccos. But really, who expects anything different from them?