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Ot: stillers: The End of an Era

Those first two games last season cannot be forgotten. A 33-3 loss to the Patriots and holding a lead versus Seattle, facing 3rd and 16 and the defense allowed Wilson to run a draw up the middle for 15 yards. Ran it on fourth, Victory Formation, ball game.

Yeah, the common theme was pretty much that we couldn't beat any team that was worth it's weight in salt. I mean, the 49ers turned it over like 18 times against us and we still couldn't beat them. At least two or three of them were completely unforced.

And then the Colts, who were 9-7 and our best win of the year (and I believe also playing with a backup QB), got absolutely robbed against us. There were some terrible calls made in that game. All in all, we really didn't do anything all that impressive last year other than be slightly less bad than a lot of bad teams.
 
2-14
5-11
5-11
7-9
9-7
2-14
6-10
5-11
Aren't you supposed to beat the bad teams? Beat the bad teams, and split with the good ones is usually what you hope for. Going back to free agent qbs, what about Kyle Allen? He was Washington's starter before he got hurt. Should be affordable, and would be worth bringing in to compete with Rudolph.
 
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I'm not a cap expert, but they have 2 must signs, Watt,and Hilton. Highsmith isn't Dupree, but he looks to be a solid starter. If Ben retires, you have to see what's available in free agency. You cannot go into a season with just Rudolph, and Dobbs as your qbs. In the draft, if you don't sign a QB, I think you have to take Mac Jones if he's there at 24. If not, if one of the elite tackles is there, you take him. If the elite tackles are gone, and Najee Harris is there, you have to take him. If you get your tackle in the first round, you take Trask in the second if he's there. If not, you take your running back. Third round take a center. After that, take the best player available that fills a need. Am I a bad guy if I hope Trey Sermon gets bruised ribs or something early in the game so that he might last into the third round for the Steelers, as they badly need a top level running back. If the Steelers do decide to wait a year before drafting a QB, which potential free agent QB would be your preference?

I love Hilton but I don’t know that he is a must sign. He and Sutton are both FAs. Both are more slot nickel guys so I don’t think they keep both. I’d prefer Hilton, but Sutton showed flashes. Given their cap problems I think they keep whoever will give them a discount.
 
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Tomlin wasted the better part of Ben's career. So many collapses and terrible playoff losses. Yeah, no losing seasons. So what?

How has it gone since losing the SB to Green Bay?
- Tebowed in OT
- lose 5 of the last 7 games and miss the playoffs
- open the season 2-6
- lose to 4 teams with losing records (two with only 2 win seasons), lose in first round to Baltimore
- Cincy gift of a playoff win
- started a season 4-5 but managed to make the AFC championship (best season in last 10 years)
- Absolute disaster of a playoff game after a 13 win season to Blake freaking Bortles.
- lose 4 of last 6 games and miss the playoffs
- lose 3 in a row to miss the playoffs (no Ben)
- lose 4 of the last 5 games after starting 11-0 and get humiliated by your little brother.

This isn't okay with all of the talent this club has had. Three straight years of terrible collapses and several awful playoff losses. Minority owners fought Tomlin's extension in 2019. I believe they were ultimately correct. Contract runs out next year but I don't know how you can afford to wait.
 
I see people talking about getting draft picks for letting Tomlin walk. I realize that is message board fodder, but what are the chances that would even be possible, assuming PGH lets him shop around? The Gruden and Belichick situations always get mentioned. But would any team really do that? I mean the Cowboys fleeced the Vikings for Herschel and Ditka sold the farm for Ricky. Does that mean any RB in the NFL would get close to that now?

Could it happen? Both Gruden and Belichick came into established rosters that had been built by other coaches, Dungy and Parcells / Carroll respectively. So any team giving up picks for Tomlin would be in a similar spot. No rebuilding team is giving away the future to hire him. (Okay, Dan Snyder might be that dumb.) A contender likely had their guy. So it would have to be a team that views the coach as that last piece. Miami? Minnesota maybe? Getting a single #1 isn’t enough value IMO. I don’t really see some team giving multiple picks. It just seems like teams are more inclined to hire younger coaches and at the same time value draft capital more now.
 
Madden’s comment about Tomlin losing to a coach that wasn’t even there was spot-on.

Has there ever been a coach that has done less with more?

He was handed the keys to a Ferrari and has driven it into a lake. The last ten years with ben, AB, bell and the guys he has now, and nothing to show for it but some embarrassing losses to bad teams in the playoffs like Tebow and Jax


Cleveland is a good team, but they were depleted and hadn’t practiced and were on the road

Tomlin needs to move on.
 
I'm not a cap expert, but they have 2 must signs, Watt,and Hilton. Highsmith isn't Dupree, but he looks to be a solid starter. If Ben retires, you have to see what's available in free agency. You cannot go into a season with just Rudolph, and Dobbs as your qbs. In the draft, if you don't sign a QB, I think you have to take Mac Jones if he's there at 24. If not, if one of the elite tackles is there, you take him. If the elite tackles are gone, and Najee Harris is there, you have to take him. If you get your tackle in the first round, you take Trask in the second if he's there. If not, you take your running back. Third round take a center. After that, take the best player available that fills a need. Am I a bad guy if I hope Trey Sermon gets bruised ribs or something early in the game so that he might last into the third round for the Steelers, as they badly need a top level running back. If the Steelers do decide to wait a year before drafting a QB, which potential free agent QB would be your preference?
You nailed it. Watt and Hilton are absolute must signs. Honestly, the defense is well positioned for the next few years even without Dupree back. The Steelers are always looking at pass rush LBs in the draft so they will probably take someone with upside in the mid rounds and maybe a 6th or 7th rd corner, but the other picks need to be used at O-Line and RB. I don’t think this is the year to use high draft capital at QB. That is the 2022 Draft after you add an impact RB and remake the O-Line. You have to either ride Ben one more year or give Rudolph the reigns for 2021 in the event Ben retires.
 
Madden’s comment about Tomlin losing to a coach that wasn’t even there was spot-on.

Has there ever been a coach that has done less with more?

He was handed the keys to a Ferrari and has driven it into a lake. The last ten years with ben, AB, bell and the guys he has now, and nothing to show for it but some embarrassing losses to bad teams in the playoffs like Tebow and Jax


Cleveland is a good team, but they were depleted and hadn’t practiced and were on the road

Tomlin needs to move on.
Or perhaps it’s because actual in game coaching and midweek practice is overrated for pro athletes ?
 
I wasn't alive for Bradshaw so I can't say which of the two was Pittsburgh's all time best QB. Ben is certainly up there

IMO, Bradshaw by a lot, it was a different time of course, but the first 8-9 years of his career the receivers were fair game, you could hit them, knock them down, knock them off their routes, etc, and QB's were much less protected. Add in the fact that his HC did not like him at all and his accomplishments are even more impressive, whereas Ben has had a much smoother ride with the Coach, fans, and media. Noll played for Paul Brown and he wanted that approach from his QB i guess. I loved Bradshaw's game right away, a very powerful arm, could run, was big and strong (for his day), but Noll didn't like him at all, (Noll had the same blindspot when Marino came available and he did not want him), Noll started Joe Gilliam over Bradshaw at one point , which i thought was ridicules at the time Click here. Of course the "know-it-all, 40 years of losing in the NFL" Steelers fans gave TB a hard time early on just to make it more difficult....comparing Championships between the two is very easy too, Bradshaw doubled Ben, each had Super Bowl seasons(2 to 1) when the team was mostly responsible for their success, and both had SB seasons (2 to 1) in which they in which they acted as main contributors to the championship(s)

Of course both are HoFers , but I would draft Bradshaw over Ben every time.
 
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he went 8-8 last year with putrid qb play. i'm not saying i love tomlin at this point but that was pretty good, considering how bad mason and duck were.

So you think Tomlin would of never had any losing seasons since 2007 without Ben, it's Tomlin providing the winning records? I good look at the scores the last decade and find dozens of wins that would be losses without Ben.
 
IMO, Bradshaw by a lot, it was a different time of course, but the first 8-9 years of his career the receivers were fair game, you could hit them, knock them down, knock them off their routes, etc, and QB's were much less protected. Add in the fact that his HC did not like him at all and his accomplishments are even more impressive, whereas Ben has had a much smoother ride with the Coach, fans, and media. Noll played for Paul Brown and he wanted that approach from his QB i guess. I loved Bradshaw's game right away, a very powerful arm, could run, was big and strong (for his day), but Noll didn't like him at all, (Noll had the same blindspot when Marino came available and he did not want him), Noll started Joe Gilliam over Bradshaw at one point , which i thought was ridicules at the time Click here. Of course the "know-it-all, 40 years of losing in the NFL" Steelers fans gave TB a hard time early on just to make it more difficult....comparing Championships between the two is very easy too, Bradshaw doubled Ben, each had Super Bowl seasons(2 to 1) when the team was mostly responsible for their success, and both had SB seasons (2 to 1) in which they in which they acted as main contributors to the championship(s)

Of course both are HoFers , but I would draft Bradshaw over Ben every time.
Ben by a lot, Ben would have 4-5 rings too if he had a team with a dozen hall of famers who weren't allowed to leave in free agency.
 
So you think Tomlin would of never had any losing seasons since 2007 without Ben, it's Tomlin providing the winning records? I good look at the scores the last decade and find dozens of wins that would be losses without Ben.

isn't that every NFL coach? you think payton would be in the playoffs every year w/out drew brees? look what happened to belichik this year.

i said in an earlier thread, i'm can't defend tomlin on much at this point. but i'll defend that it's a qb league, not HC league. and i can find plenty of crappy games by ben the last 10 years.
 
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So you think Tomlin would of never had any losing seasons since 2007 without Ben, it's Tomlin providing the winning records? I good look at the scores the last decade and find dozens of wins that would be losses without Ben.
I give you the New England without Brady
I bet belicheck don’t have championships without Brady
It’s a silly hypothetical game for nothing
 
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Who’s coaching tree is actually good?
I means Arians is still in the playoffs
Almost all the belichek head coaches have been fired

It’s a silly way to judge a coach

Arians was hired by Cowher and then promoted to OC by Tomlin. Tomlin subsequently got rid of him in one of the worst personnel moves he's made.

You'd be hard pressed to find another coach who has been around for 14 years who has less staff leave for better jobs. Not sure I can even name one. That speaks volumes.
 
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Tomlin wasted the better part of Ben's career. So many collapses and terrible playoff losses. Yeah, no losing seasons. So what?

How has it gone since losing the SB to Green Bay?
- Tebowed in OT
- lose 5 of the last 7 games and miss the playoffs
- open the season 2-6
- lose to 4 teams with losing records (two with only 2 win seasons), lose in first round to Baltimore
- Cincy gift of a playoff win
- started a season 4-5 but managed to make the AFC championship (best season in last 10 years)
- Absolute disaster of a playoff game after a 13 win season to Blake freaking Bortles.
- lose 4 of last 6 games and miss the playoffs
- lose 3 in a row to miss the playoffs (no Ben)
- lose 4 of the last 5 games after starting 11-0 and get humiliated by your little brother.

This isn't okay with all of the talent this club has had. Three straight years of terrible collapses and several awful playoff losses. Minority owners fought Tomlin's extension in 2019. I believe they were ultimately correct. Contract runs out next year but I don't know how you can afford to wait.

I agree with this. At some point you have to acknowledge that Tomlin was handed a franchise (and likely HOF) quarterback who was 25 and already won a superbowl. He took over good team and had pretty solid front office. He won one SB and lost another. I think he's a pretty average coach who landed in a great situation.
 
Do you see the comparison? Lampard is my favorite Chelsea legend of all time. He’s great in a news conference and I think he’s likely good in that locker room. Just like Tomlin. But he is outmatched tactically by other Managers. It’s painful to watch. Just like Tomlin. Both are good men that I admire in many ways.
And to address Soufs comment about Arians? Yeah he’s technically a part of the Tomlin tree...but might be the only example and not a real good one. He’s been around a lot of head coaches. And isn’t much of a product of Tomlin.
I do see the similarities and I think, like Tomlin, Lamps will get plenty of time. Lamps because in addition to what you said, he is Chelsea royalty and English royalty. He should have stuck around Derby County for a season or 2 more...continuing to learn the managing side of the game. He is proof you can have an owner like Abramovich that will throw absurd amounts of money around, but if you don't know how to manage, you'll be mediocre.
 
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Arians was hired by Cowher and then promoted to OC by Tomlin. Tomlin subsequently got rid of him in one of the worst personnel moves he's made.

You'd be hard pressed to find another coach who has been around for 14 years who has less staff leave for better jobs. Not sure I can even name one. That speaks volumes.
How many coaches have 9 10-win seasons?
 
And how many teams routinely lose to inferior teams in the playoffs? How many coaches are given a tremendous organization with amazing talent and can’t deliver a playoff win year after year?

Tomlin isthe ultimate moral victory coach. No losing seasons, many playoff visits, mostly failed playoff runs. Headscratching losses to awful teams every year.
 
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The only thing I would say is when have the Steelers ever actually gone through a rebuild. There were some periods where the future looked really grim (1991, 2000, 2013, 2019) and the Steelers got back to the top of the division and contending status very quickly thereafter. Sure, the team has some big salary cap decisions, but this organization has proven that it deserves a benefit of doubt and I’m sure they will work out of this one too. The only thing I will concede is that this is the first time that all three division rivals appear to be set at QB for the long haul. That part is concerning.

That's why I think maybe they need to look at a trade to accelerate the process. I think Watson is a pipe dream but someone like Darnold may fit very nicely on this team. Trubisky would be ideal but I don't think he's going anywhere at this point.
 
Mike McCarthy is one who also won a superbowl.
Also Tomlin did it in probably the toughest division in the NFL for most of his tenure. The AFC North has sent more wildcard teams to the playoffs during Tomlin's tenure than any other division in the league. It wasn't even close during his first 10 seasons with the Steelers when the division had 9 Wildcard teams (NFC North-7, NFC East-5, AFC East-3, everyone else-4).
 
That's why I think maybe they need to look at a trade to accelerate the process. I think Watson is a pipe dream but someone like Darnold may fit very nicely on this team. Trubisky would be ideal but I don't think he's going anywhere at this point.

I was going to like this and be in agreement until you threw out the name Trubisky. Darnold yes, Trubisky no thank you.
 
Also Tomlin did it in probably the toughest division in the NFL for most of his tenure. The AFC North has sent more wildcard teams to the playoffs during Tomlin's tenure than any other division in the league. It wasn't even close during his first 10 seasons with the Steelers when the division had 9 Wildcard teams (NFC North-7, NFC East-5, AFC East-3, everyone else-4).

Dude the AFC North Mystic is one of the most overrated conceptions in football. It was the Steelers and Ravens and that was it. The Browns were a complete joke, and the Bengals did just enough to sneak in only to do what they did best under Marvin Lewis.
 
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Dude the AFC North Mystic is one of the most overrated conceptions in football. It was the Steelers and Ravens and that was it. The Browns were a complete joke, and the Bengals did just enough to sneak in only to do what they did best under Marvin Lewis.
In the Bengals 6 playoff seasons over a 7-year span they went 40-19-1 outside of the AFC North.

edit: Guess which division has the most 9-win teams since Tomlin was hired...

AFC
East-24
North-30
South-27
West-22

NFC
East-24
North-24
South-24
West-23
 
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I love Hilton but I don’t know that he is a must sign. He and Sutton are both FAs. Both are more slot nickel guys so I don’t think they keep both. I’d prefer Hilton, but Sutton showed flashes. Given their cap problems I think they keep whoever will give them a discount.
If bens back keep the one that is cheapest. But if vens done i sign sutton and let hilton walk along with releasing haden. They need to cut toes with anyone who wont be around in 2 seasons and rebuild. Sutton is younger so i keep him. Rebuild the ol and dl this next two drafts and find a qb. After 2021 they should have a good bit of cap room if guys like ben and pouncey arent back next year
 
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Rebuilding is a baseball term used by garbage organizations to fool the dummies and dreamers amongst their fan bases. It has no meaning in the NFL.
 
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I was going to like this and be in agreement until you threw out the name Trubisky. Darnold yes, Trubisky no thank you.

It's a matter of cost. Higher upside with Darnold but also higher cost. Trubisky could be a very good QB but needs better coaching. I could see him being successful under a OC that could play to his talents. Definitely not the current Steelers OC.
 
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Mike McCarthy is one who also won a superbowl.

Should have won more but bad coaching cost them a few Superbowl appearances. I'm specifically thinking of the NFC championship game against Seattle in 2014. They had that game won but bad coaching (and a little bad officiating to boot) cost them that game. McCarthy was not a good coach come playoff time. He only got the one title because his QB had one of the greatest playoff runs ever.
 
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