i agree with this 1000% percent. umps/officials make mistakes, these are either parents volunteering or teenagers trying to make $20 bucks for games that the kids playing dont even care too much about once it's over.
Yea but if you increase pay, you'd get more people to do it. If you paid me $100 to go ref soccer or basketball for an hour, I'd do it.
Trying to figure out what cancel culture has to do with this topic of excess hostility in youth sports…..
Well said. I have to confess I’ve found myself getting caught up in it a little bit too. The soccer offsides call is a great example.
this is a masterpiece. First thing I thought of when I read the post you responded to.
Nobody that refs youth sports does it for the money. Really that applies to collegiate sports as well. It’s a side hustle doing something they love for nearly all of them.
It’s on the coaches too. They need to set the tone for the parents early, and enforce it. And they have to be forceful about it. It’s a tough ask when the parents all think they have the juice to say akd do what they want because they’re writing the checks. “We’re paying your salary.”
My oldest son was a hockey ref throughout high school. He passed the IIHF testing, went to camps and courses. He was into it, and was pretty good at it. He did mostly youth games and high school. He did some adult non-checking paired with a senior ref.
Youth Sports up to HS is a side hustle. A lot of younger guys doing college football are trying to work their way up to D1 and then professional. They start at D2 and D3 and work their way up. In many cases they work a HS game and then travel early Saturday morning to get to their college game. Yes - they have full time jobs, but there is a lot of time and travel involved.
I already stated that earlier in a post. It’s like anything else. You have to make it worthwhile by paying more money. Otherwise, you are going to keep getting young kids or old retirees that are past their prime.
Skating in the middle in a 3-man is one thing (and my favorite, personally) - don’t have to worry about offsides, icing, shagging pucks, face offs, etc since the lineys are doing all of that. But having to do the job of the referee and both linesmen? No thanks.
3 man is a luxury here in NZ. Only national league games get that. All club hockey is 2 man.
isn't being a riotous drunken Peaky Blinder wannabe part of that game's culture?
I think your logic is flawed. The money is just fine as I stated above. Most travel baseball umpires that work 14U and up make between $50 and $100 per game, depending on the quality of tournament. Something like a PBR, Bullpen or Perfect Game will be at the high end, maybe higher. But those jobs aren't easy to get. But there are many other well run tournament organizations that pay well. That is plenty of money for someone's side hustle. Especially a retiree who can umpire 4 games per day Thursday through Sunday (that is the typical time frame for 14U and up tournaments, although some of the bigger ones start on Wednesday and a few on Tuesday). $400 per day for 4 days = $1600.
How many kids play high-level travel baseball? 1%? For the other 99%, their games and sports are being reffed by people making $20-$30 per game.
Sounds like hockey has its act together. At least where you're at.
How many are or how many should be? From the population of kids that play organized baseball, I'd estimate that about 50% are and less than 10% should be. But the umpires at just about every level of "travel" baseball are making at least $50 per game.
Well, I was said "high level." The majority of these kids aren't playing high level travel baseball. Some tournament featuring 4 teams from EF, WM, TJ, and McKeesport isnt a high level tournament. There's just a few travel teams in each age group which are "high level." Beaver Valley, Outlaws, etc. Not even 1% of kids are playing at that level.How many are or how many should be? From the population of kids that play organized baseball, I'd estimate that about 50% are and less than 10% should be. But the umpires at just about every level of "travel" baseball are making at least $50 per game.
i guess it all depends on what your expectations should be. I don't have intimate knowledge of youth sports outside of baseball and football, but I'm guessing there are some similarities. If you are paying more than $1000 per season, you should expect that the officials are being paid more than $20 to $30 per game. Basically, if you are playing in a game where the official is being paid $30 or less per game, you are playing rec league no matter what the grifter that runs the club tries to tell you or no matter how far you traveled to play the game. You are being grifted.
There is NOTHING wrong with playing rec league, so please don't misunderstand me. But don't play rec league or rec level league and expect high quality, well paid officials and well run tournaments and games. It is like shopping at the Dollar General and expecting a Saks 5th Avenue experience. Or ordering a hot dog and expecting it to taste like prime rib. And that is from someone who loves hot dogs and Dollar General.
In our league, we had the cops called for a game of 7/8 year old rec league but it was an altercation between 2 coaches. I've seen a coach tossed from a 9/10 year old rec league. Believe me, rec parents and coaches are just as bad. But my guess is that a lot of this is when the "travel players" dont get a call when playing rec baseball. If you are a rec ump, you dont want to miss a call on 9 year old Johnny who plays Travel for West Mifflin and will someday play for the prestigious Point Park Pioneers after traveling the nation his whole childhood playing baseball
I'm a PIAA official and have officiated hundreds of football and basketball games. It's not that bad. You can't have rabbit ears.
man, that's just crazy to me.. i dont think you are lying, just dont see it at my kids games. Of course im the parent sitting in right field by myself with a 6 pack in the cooler so maybe it's going on and im just oblivious to it..
Mark_Marty, football or hoops? I'd be curious on the process to be a wpial football ref.. i think i would enjoy this once my kids get older and i have free time.
The only way to do that in youth sports is to pass the significant additional cost along to the participants. That's not going to fly. These leagues already struggle to keep coaches, pay for places to play, etc. Most parents feel that they're already spending way too much time and money on their kids' travel sports, with no end game to show for it for 98% of all players.
I have never seen worse parent behavior toward the refs, the kids playing, the coaches, or toward each other than I've witnessed at the handful of travel hockey games I've attended. Never.
Agree--90% of all travel leagues are just glorified rec teams with better uniforms and travel obligations. It's a cottage industry that has basically replaced community rec sports for any kid who wants to play his/her sport beyond elementary school level. To me, "high level" means the travel leagues that are the cream of the crop, the ones for the elite players that are future D1 college prospects. Every youth sport has its version of these leagues.
Not really. My kids play, well not baseball because they dont like it (thank God). I do think of all the "travel sports," baseball is by far the most absurd. Some dads get a team together and call them the Monsters or Vipers or Lightning or some other generic name and travel the tri state region playing 100 games/year so their kids can develop the necessary skills to play at Point Park or LaRoche one day.
Yep. Better uniforms and something for parents to do on the weekends. OK guys, this week, our team of players from only our small town will be traveling TWENTY MILES for a tournament comprised of players from other small towns.
so their kids can develop the necessary skills to play at Point Park or LaRoche one day.
It’s amazing how much you act like you know everything yet know so little.
Some of these teams exist to get kids games at a reduced cost and less travel. I suspect most parents know exactly what they are getting into.
I agree with the last part that most youth travel players wont make their HS team. However, I don't think its as hard to play D3 as you make it seem. To become a good D3 player/starter, yea, ok. But if you are an above average WPIAL player, you can make a D3 roster, for numbers if for no other reason
Go to PIAA.org. Under officials. You have to pass your clearances, pass the written test and join a chapter and attend 4 meetings a year. I love it. Eff the fans and coaches. It’s about the kids.
Getting over the hump the first year is key. You have to pass the test and then join a chapter. Paying for your uniform, shoes, equipment, and dues will cost you about $600. You will get games to work if you want, especially mid week (Middle School) and Saturday games (JV and Youth). You might even get some Friday night games as a fill-in. If you get with a good Friday Night crew, then you can make good friends and get good games if your R is liked by the assigners. Just to give you an idea of what a Friday night might look like for a new official. You have to be at the game site an hour and half to 2 hours before the game. Your R may want to meet and travel to the game together or meet there. You will probably get a smaller school, so u may very well have to travel an hour to get there. Your crew will do a pregame prep and talk with the coaches, inspect balls and then get out on the field to do pregame prep there before game. You are looking at about a 7 hour commitment to make about $75 for a Single A/AA game. I’d be happy to give you anymore insight if you are interested.
I’m guessing we either know each other or crossed paths with officials we worked with at some point.
