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The main problem with privatizing the sale of liquor is figuring out how privatizing will replace the $500,000,000 of profits that get deposited into PA Dept of Revenue each year. Hope and assume are not plans.

I hate government waste, but I am for the state store system because unlike a lot of government programs it is making money and supplying jobs for people. Some one is gonna make a ton of money selling booze, it isn't gonna be the grocery store stock worker getting $8 an hour to stock the booze aisle.
If someone is jealous of someone making $14 an hour and having benefits while their industry is making money for the state, all I can say is apply for a job when its open.
 
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I hate government waste, but I am for the state store system because unlike a lot of government programs it is making money and supplying jobs for people. Some one is gonna make a ton of money selling booze, it isn't gonna be the grocery store stock worker getting $8 an hour to stock the booze aisle.
If someone is jealous of someone making $14 an hour and having benefits while their industry is making money for the state, all I can say is apply for a job when its open.
The issue is that people who don't drink shouldn't have to pay (taxes) for the salaries of the people working in that industry.

There's very little additional overhead associated with selling any one category of items in a grocery store. Labor included.
 
The issue is that people who don't drink shouldn't have to pay (taxes) for the salaries of the people working in that industry.

The state stores are making a lot of money for the state, and the state uses the money to the benefit of all. If the stores were not making money I would say shut them down. The fact is the stores are making lots of money for the state and providing jobs as a bonus.
 
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I hate government waste, but I am for the state store system because unlike a lot of government programs it is making money and supplying jobs for people. Some one is gonna make a ton of money selling booze, it isn't gonna be the grocery store stock worker getting $8 an hour to stock the booze aisle.
If someone is jealous of someone making $14 an hour and having benefits while their industry is making money for the state, all I can say is apply for a job when its open.

I'm not jealous - I just think it's ridiculous that any of us should be paying for this. The PLCB is antiquated and rife with historical blunders. I have neighbors who are wine importers and the hoops the state makes them jump through is insane.

And btw - privatizing will most likely generate the same revenue.

https://www.commonwealthfoundation....ng-liquor-privatization-to-balance-the-budget
 
And btw - privatizing will most likely generate the same revenue

It may, but if you think it will replace the jobs for people, it won't be equivalent. Again it is making money and providing better jobs for people. I doubt the private sector will add as many jobs as are lost. Do you think grocery stores are gonna pay a stocker $12 an hour plus benefits? I don't judge things on ideology, I understand the argument, but as I stated it is making money and providing some better paying jobs for other Pennsylvanians.

I'm reminded of the idea of how much gambling would help the state coffers, some even suggesting real estate tax for school district may be eliminated. But that was just a ploy, a carrot thrown out so our Gov. Rendell 's buddies could get rich owning Casinos. The state could have run the Casino's or took a huge piece of the pie to get rid of tax, instead it really has changed little and the state income which is a regressive tax continues to climb.

By the way are you this upset about postal workers? I don't think you need a lot of skill to do their job, they are making more money with even better pensions/benefits.
 
It may, but if you think it will replace the jobs for people, it won't be equivalent. Again it is making money and providing better jobs for people. I doubt the private sector will add as many jobs as are lost. Do you think grocery stores are gonna pay a stocker $12 an hour plus benefits? I don't judge things on ideology, I understand the argument, but as I stated it is making money and providing some better paying jobs for other Pennsylvanians.

I'm reminded of the idea of how much gambling would help the state coffers, some even suggesting real estate tax for school district may be eliminated. But that was just a ploy, a carrot thrown out so our Gov. Rendell 's buddies could get rich owning Casinos. The state could have run the Casino's or took a huge piece of the pie to get rid of tax, instead it really has changed little and the state income which is a regressive tax continues to climb.

By the way are you this upset about postal workers? I don't think you need a lot of skill to do their job, they are making more money with even better pensions/benefits.

Of course they make money. They are selling an in-demand product for which they have a state mandated monopoly. How could you possibly not make money selling alcohol under those circumstances?

What would replace the state stores as an alternative would be businesses, both large and small. Businesses invest and spend in their own communities, and pay taxes.

If the higher wage and employee arguments are in play, why shouldn't PA take over and monopolize other profitable goods and services? Cigarette sales? Grocery? Computers? Mobile phone services? Why stop at alcohol, as according to some the state is doing it better than the private sector would?

As to gambling in PA, I remember that coming to a vote, and Rendell campaigning on how it would greatly reduce the property tax burdens. That was such a load of it. How much tax relief have you PA residents seen from it?

And something I often wondered is how was it that University Beverage in Oakland could sell beer after hours when the other vendors all had to close? A case of Keystone Light after midnight was an absolute necessity on occasion, but how did they do that, and publicly advertise it as well?
 
If the higher wage and employee arguments are in play, why shouldn't PA take over and monopolize other profitable goods and services?

Because it is not already in place, I am not for these things normally, but when I found that it was making a profit, I said leave it alone.
 
The state stores are making a lot of money for the state, and the state uses the money to the benefit of all. If the stores were not making money I would say shut them down. The fact is the stores are making lots of money for the state and providing jobs as a bonus.


The state stores make the bulk of their money on the taxes they collect on the alcohol they sell. Unless you think that the taxes are going to go away if you privatize the system (and surely no one is naive enough to think that) the state will still make lots of money.
 
It may, but if you think it will replace the jobs for people, it won't be equivalent. Again it is making money and providing better jobs for people. I doubt the private sector will add as many jobs as are lost. Do you think grocery stores are gonna pay a stocker $12 an hour plus benefits? I don't judge things on ideology, I understand the argument, but as I stated it is making money and providing some better paying jobs for other Pennsylvanians.

I'm reminded of the idea of how much gambling would help the state coffers, some even suggesting real estate tax for school district may be eliminated. But that was just a ploy, a carrot thrown out so our Gov. Rendell 's buddies could get rich owning Casinos. The state could have run the Casino's or took a huge piece of the pie to get rid of tax, instead it really has changed little and the state income which is a regressive tax continues to climb.

By the way are you this upset about postal workers? I don't think you need a lot of skill to do their job, they are making more money with even better pensions/benefits.
You don't understand. The system isn't successful until it greatly increases the income for a few while reducing the quality of life for the majority. Never mind that it is profitable, contributes nearly $800million to schools and other social services, and provides consumers competitive pricing with other states.
 
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I'm reminded of the idea of how much gambling would help the state coffers, some even suggesting real estate tax for school district may be eliminated. But that was just a ploy, a carrot thrown out so our Gov. Rendell 's buddies could get rich owning Casinos. The state could have run the Casino's or took a huge piece of the pie to get rid of tax, instead it really has changed little and the state income which is a regressive tax continues to climb.


Pennsylvania took in around $1.5 billion in tax revenues from casinos in 2019. Yeah, that's a "B". If you don't think that's helping the state's coffers I don't know what to say.
 
Because it is not already in place, I am not for these things normally, but when I found that it was making a profit, I said leave it alone.

Of course it makes a profit. Even an organisation as incompetent as the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania cannot fail to turn a profit selling alcohol in a system where they hold a monopoly.
 
You don't understand. The system isn't successful until it greatly increases the income for a few while reducing the quality of life for the majority. Never mind that it is profitable, contributes nearly $800million to schools and other social services, and provides consumers competitive pricing with other states.

Pennsylvania should then take over all business and industry for the greater good. How about they start with healthcare?
 
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Pennsylvania should then take over all business and industry for the greater good. How about they start with healthcare?
I am actually open to the idea of a single-payer system. Polls show that satisfaction with healthcare from those on Medicare/Medicaid are usually on par or higher than for those on private healthcare. The administrative fees and actual cost of coverage is significantly less per person than private. So yeah, I'd be willing to listen. Especially at the end of every month when I see how much I'm paying in premiums for the people at my company.

But my point about the LCB is that its already here, it's profitable, it provides funds for schools and other public good, and the pricing to consumers is competitive with every state in its vicinity. If it was a complete failure then absolutely reform the system. But it is far from a failure.
 
I am actually open to the idea of a single-payer system. Polls show that satisfaction with healthcare from those on Medicare/Medicaid are usually on par or higher than for those on private healthcare. The administrative fees and actual cost of coverage is significantly less per person than private. So yeah, I'd be willing to listen. Especially at the end of every month when I see how much I'm paying in premiums for the people at my company.

But my point about the LCB is that its already here, it's profitable, it provides funds for schools and other public good, and the pricing to consumers is competitive with every state in its vicinity. If it was a complete failure then absolutely reform the system. But it is far from a failure.
I don't think you have a very good understanding of Medicare.
 
Pennsylvania took in around $1.5 billion in tax revenues from casinos in 2019. Yeah, that's a "B". If you don't think that's helping the state's coffers I don't know what to say.

Have our taxes been reduced, mine have only gone up. Do you know what the tax rate is on Casinos? I would be interested to know.
 
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I am actually open to the idea of a single-payer system. Polls show that satisfaction with healthcare from those on Medicare/Medicaid are usually on par or higher than for those on private healthcare. The administrative fees and actual cost of coverage is significantly less per person than private. So yeah, I'd be willing to listen. Especially at the end of every month when I see how much I'm paying in premiums for the people at my company.

But my point about the LCB is that its already here, it's profitable, it provides funds for schools and other public good, and the pricing to consumers is competitive with every state in its vicinity. If it was a complete failure then absolutely reform the system. But it is far from a failure.
LOL.

The wine prices have fallen more in line but that's mainly because they now allow deliveries from out of state. (But they still tightly control what they put on their shelves. Anyone who is privy to that process understands how arbitrary and borderline corrupt it can be.) But the Commonwealth holds the monopoly on everything else and the prices reflect that.

I don't want to give off the impression that I'm obsessed with alcohol or wine. Or the fact that their employees are unionized. Good for them. It's just my opinion that the Commonwealth absolutely should not be in the business of selling alcohol. It has been a very profitable venture though for many decades to many politicians and their supporters. It wields a lot of power. (Anyone remember the ridiculous contract Rendell awarded to an "associate" with no public RFPs for those grocery store dispensing machines that never worked?)

Our Commonwealth should be solely focused on running the state, not stores. In a free market with taxes, the profits will still be there, difference being it will be run by professionals, not politicians.
 
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Have our taxes been reduced, mine have only gone up. Do you know what the tax rate is on Casinos? I would be interested to know.
Not sure if you realize you're kind of making my argument.

I have no idea what the tax rate for casinos are, but if indeed your taxes have gone up, then it's the COMMONWEALTH and Harrisburg who are not distributing the profits correctly or as promised. But somehow you think these same people are doing a good job of owning and selling a huge business like alcohol?
 
FREE THE PA ST LIQUOR STORES! FREE THE PA ST LIQUOR STORES! FREE THE PA ST LIQUOR STORES!

How ridiculous having relatively high paid union employees with State benefits unload boxes, stock shelves, and check people out handing them a bag with a bottle or two in it.

A trained monkey could do all of those jobs probably better than some of the state employees.

In other states privately owned liquor stores have a owner, one or maybe two key employees who are fulltime with benefits the remainder are PT no benefits.

This is a classic! "I'm from the State government and have no idea how to run a business".

Do you pay everyone as much as possible???
 
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I joined my first online wine club last night. Thank you PA liquor store shut down. I was just interested and it may have been something I would have joined eventually, but I figured what the hell.
 
It's just my opinion that the Commonwealth absolutely should not be in the business of selling alcohol.
Not sure if you realize you're kind of making my argument.

Yes, I agree. I can not argue these points ,along ideological lines you are correct, government waste and corruption is a major problem. But remember this, even without State Stores, it is NOT a free market system, far from it...the government decides who gets to sell it and who does not....But yes, I must concede to dissonance between theory and practice on the issue which you are pointing out

But my point about the LCB is that its already here, it's profitable, it provides funds for schools and other public good, and the pricing to consumers is competitive with every state in its vicinity. If it was a complete failure then absolutely reform the system. But it is far from a failure.

Add in the fact that it is providing some better jobs for others I place it far down the list of priorities of governmental programs/duties that need fixed or streamlined, IMO.
 
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Yes, I agree. I can not argue these points ,along ideological lines you are correct, government waste and corruption is a major problem. But remember this, even without State Stores, it is NOT a free market system, far from it...the government decides who gets to sell it and who does not....But yes, I must concede to dissonance between theory and practice on the issue which you are pointing out



Add in the fact that it is providing some better jobs for others I place it far down the list of priorities of governmental programs/duties that need fixed or streamlined, IMO.
Well, it doesn't need to be fixed - it needs to be completely eliminated, but not sure it will ever happen since so many political careers are protected by it. It's such a waste and corrupt on top of it.

Obviously as you can tell, it's as flash point for me. ;)
 
More than that. Wolf is beholden to his state employees. This isn't just about lobbyists and prudes.

The Commonwealth of PA should NOT be in the business of selling alcohol. I don't care what side of the aisle you identify with - this is ridiculous and has been for decades.


Of course historically this has been a very partisan issue in Pennsylvania. Both Governors Thornburg and Ridge tried very hard to privatize liquor sales in Pennsylvania...but met huge resistance from the Unions, MAD and most Democrats. The sale of liquor licenses to private interests for retail sale and closing the antiquated PA State Store system would raise a billion plus dollars for a cash strapped Commonwealth government. Hopefully one day it comes to pass. Hail to Pitt!
 
FREE THE PA ST LIQUOR STORES! FREE THE PA ST LIQUOR STORES! FREE THE PA ST LIQUOR STORES!

How ridiculous having relatively high paid union employees with State benefits unload boxes, stock shelves, and check people out handing them a bag with a bottle or two in it.

A trained monkey could do all of those jobs probably better than some of the state employees.

In other states privately owned liquor stores have a owner, one or maybe two key employees who are fulltime with benefits the remainder are PT no benefits.

This is a classic! "I'm from the State government and have no idea how to run a business".

Do you pay everyone as much as possible???
At least the monkeys could be trained to provide good customer service. You know knowledgeable about the product, provide good customer service.

I could make a long story, but I won’t. Tried to do a real estate transaction with a Wine and Sprit store the LCB had moved out of but still had 3 year lease. Started at the store level. I wish there was a monkey to deal with. Ended up with a Regional Manager who of course was too busy and overloaded to deal with the ability to get out of a dead lease and the expenses associated with it. Frustration was not the word.
 
The state stores make the bulk of their money on the taxes they collect on the alcohol they sell. Unless you think that the taxes are going to go away if you privatize the system (and surely no one is naive enough to think that) the state will still make lots of money.

The state stores still collect a tax for a flood that occurred over 100 years ago. That should tell you all you need to know about the PLCB.

The greatest argument against communism. Imagine if every business was state run and not just the liquor sales.
 
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I’m not a liquor drinker, but it has always perplexed me why it is so simple to buy beer, wine and spirits in other states, but not in PA. Do the beer distributors have a powerful lobby? Why is PA the only state in the country with liquor laws like this?

Exactly. The concept of "Liquor Stores" is weird. This has to be a long standing Dumbocratic program that someone is skimming money off of.

Only in Pennsylvania
 
PittLaw, nice to here from you.

Ridge tried very hard to privatize liquor sales in Pennsylvania..

Not to open a can of worms, again but .....
Ridge is on my list of all time worse politicians, for example,
on his way out he increased state pensions and to do so he needed votes so he increased teachers pensions from 75% to like 87.5% of average salary of top three years,(or something like this) which leads me to believe he didn't really care about tax payers at all but he wanted to load up some of his buddies with their own "monopoly" to sell liquor.....he spoke out of both sides of his mouth alot, imo
 
Exactly. The concept of "Liquor Stores" is weird. This has to be a long standing Dumbocratic program that someone is skimming money off of.

Only in Pennsylvania
LOL

Upon its creation, Governor Gifford Pinchot (R) stated that the purpose of the Board was to "discourage the purchase of alcoholic beverages by making it as inconvenient and expensive as possible."
 
LOL

Upon its creation, Governor Gifford Pinchot (R) stated that the purpose of the Board was to "discourage the purchase of alcoholic beverages by making it as inconvenient and expensive as possible."


Yeah, in PA it's never been just about the Democrats protecting their union backers. It's also been about Republicans who because of their religious beliefs feel that people shouldn't be allowed to drink alcohol at all, that it's the devil's drink. Back in the day those folks were the primary drivers of prohibition, and when prohibition ended they wanted to make people buying alcohol as difficult as possible. So they came up with the moronic system that we have today, that some people from both parties have tried to change (to some level of success) over the years and other people from both parties have fought tooth and nail to maintain the status quo.
 
Yeah, in PA it's never been just about the Democrats protecting their union backers. It's also been about Republicans who because of their religious beliefs feel that people shouldn't be allowed to drink alcohol at all, that it's the devil's drink. Back in the day those folks were the primary drivers of prohibition, and when prohibition ended they wanted to make people buying alcohol as difficult as possible. So they came up with the moronic system that we have today, that some people from both parties have tried to change (to some level of success) over the years and other people from both parties have fought tooth and nail to maintain the status quo.
Fair
 
Yeah and again the criticism at Wolfe, I mean he has moved and relaxed more restrictions than any 10 governors. The only problem I have, if beer depots are allowed open, then state stores should be also.

But Pre Wolfe, if you shut down the liquor stores, you essentially bring in Prohibition. Now? You can get beer/wine in grocery stores and places like Sheetz, and you can get online deliveries that was never allowed before.

Like anything, it is a bipartisan effort to our antiquated state store system.
 
The state stores are making a lot of money for the state, and the state uses the money to the benefit of all. If the stores were not making money I would say shut them down. The fact is the stores are making lots of money for the state and providing jobs as a bonus.

More than 80% of the revenue [when last studied] came from sales and liquor taxes, which would be collected and paid regardless of who makes the sale. Take a look at the bloated and over-paid State Store System and tell me this is an efficient and pro-consumer model? The stores themselves are generally nasty, not merchandised well, and have surly and unhelpful staff. I'm sure the State could operate grocery stores too which would generate jobs and money....but surely you recognize this is not a good idea?
PittLaw, nice to here from you.



Not to open a can of worms, again but .....
Ridge is on my list of all time worse politicians, for example,
on his way out he increased state pensions and to do so he needed votes so he increased teachers pensions from 75% to like 87.5% of average salary of top three years,(or something like this) which leads me to believe he didn't really care about tax payers at all but he wanted to load up some of his buddies with their own "monopoly" to sell liquor.....he spoke out of both sides of his mouth alot, imo


Of course this is ancient history, but your memory of it is slightly off. During the Ridge administration, there was an incentive offered to very senior teachers through PSEA and their Commonwealth backed retirement plan to incentivize senior teachers to retire. The public policy was that the most senior teachers are most highly paid...so by retiring, they would save school districts significant amounts of salary, while also opening up many new teaching positions to young teachers and recent grads looking for a teaching spot. Of course this plan was approved by the PA Legislature [in an overwhelming bipartisan way]...and many teachers retired under the plan. The percentage of retirement pay you quote is wrong [I know as I had family that retired under the plan], but I cannot seem to find the numbers on the Internet. Either way, to suggest that Ridge was corrupt is simply not accurate. Hail to Pitt!
 
More than 80% of the revenue [when last studied] came from sales and liquor taxes, which would be collected and paid regardless of who makes the sale. Take a look at the bloated and over-paid State Store System and tell me this is an efficient and pro-consumer model? The stores themselves are generally nasty, not merchandised well, and have surly and unhelpful staff. I'm sure the State could operate grocery stores too which would generate jobs and money....but surely you recognize this is not a good idea?



Of course this is ancient history, but your memory of it is slightly off. During the Ridge administration, there was an incentive offered to very senior teachers through PSEA and their Commonwealth backed retirement plan to incentivize senior teachers to retire. The public policy was that the most senior teachers are most highly paid...so by retiring, they would save school districts significant amounts of salary, while also opening up many new teaching positions to young teachers and recent grads looking for a teaching spot. Of course this plan was approved by the PA Legislature [in an overwhelming bipartisan way]...and many teachers retired under the plan. The percentage of retirement pay you quote is wrong [I know as I had family that retired under the plan], but I cannot seem to find the numbers on the Internet. Either way, to suggest that Ridge was corrupt is simply not accurate. Hail to Pitt!
A similar argument could be made for the bloated PA legislature, the largest such body in all the United States I believe.

Add in the salaries, pensions and travel costs of not only the state reps, but all their "crucial" aids and other employees and there would be plenty to be outraged about as well!

I do enjoy selective outrage. Guess it all depends on whose ox is getting gored!
 
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