Pitt makes Top 25
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Four ACC teams in Top 25. We are ranked the lowest of the 4. Remember when we joined the ACC that some people were wondering whether we should even wrestle in it because the competition would be so weak? How times have changed. I think UNC is a better tournament team than a dual meet team because they have a few guys who can score a lot of points but not great depth. But, VT and N.C. State are very solid programs with both quality and depth.
I will admit that I thought that Pitt would walk through the ACC every year. At least we are turning the corner and building the program towards relevance. I think Coach Gavin and AD Lyke have us on the right path.
To put things in context there are 76 D1 wrestling teams vs 347 D1 basketball teams. Being ranked 25 in wrestling is like being ranked 115 in basketball. although progress is apparent, we have a long way to go which I do believe will happen
Very true the gap between the top 3 to 5 teams and rest of the top 25 is as wide as an ocean.
"Being ranked 25 is like being ranked 115 in basketball"
I'm not sure the 76 vs 347 is the statistic that makes for establishing context - for several reasons. First off, one needs to determine if we are talking dual meet or NCAA Championship.
A couple of points that suggest a flawed comparison to basketball:
One, maybe two, dominant basketball players will get a team into the top 25. That's why the "lottery Pick" phenomenon exists. One "lottery Pick in wrestling just fills one of ten spots in the lineup. In addition, that wrestling lottery pick success doesn't carry the remainder of the team. The lottery pick can average 30 PPG like a Stephan Curry, James Robinson, Dwayne Wade, Kevin Durant, etc in college and pros and give the team a well above average chance for team success. The wrestling lottery pick can pin every one of his guys and that may have very little effect on the teams success.
347 X 5 is 1735 starting slots in D1 basketball (2,082 if you throw in the sixth man). 76 X 10 is 760 starting slots in D1 wrestling. This implies the starting slots are more limited in wrestling and therefor, talent is much more concentrated and harder to climb the ranks. Talent is even more concentrated when one considers how the weight classes distil the talent even further (ie the 285 guy isn't competing at 125).
Now, one would have to know how many total kids are in the recruiting pool for both basketball and wrestling for the above analysis to be truly valid. Might basketball slots be more competitive because there are many more high schoolers playing basketball relative to the number of slots available? Or, are those 760 wrestling slots more competitive because FloNationals etc, weeds out the mediocre kids right away?
My long winded reply is simply to point out that basing the difficulty of a top 25 ranking on the total number of teams in the study is flawed.
And having stated the above...and deferring the other arguments...does anybody think there is significantly more variance between the top 3-5 and bottom 25 in football or basketball?
Finally, while I have no doubt Gavin and Co will return Pitt to a national team power, but when all is said and done...we are fortunate, our sport can allow for a Carelton Haselrig, because wrestling is at its foundation, a sport that honors individuals.
I'm not sure the 76 vs 347 is the statistic that makes for establishing context - for several reasons. First off, one needs to determine if we are talking dual meet or NCAA Championship.
A couple of points that suggest a flawed comparison to basketball:
One, maybe two, dominant basketball players will get a team into the top 25. That's why the "lottery Pick" phenomenon exists. One "lottery Pick in wrestling just fills one of ten spots in the lineup. In addition, that wrestling lottery pick success doesn't carry the remainder of the team. The lottery pick can average 30 PPG like a Stephan Curry, James Robinson, Dwayne Wade, Kevin Durant, etc in college and pros and give the team a well above average chance for team success. The wrestling lottery pick can pin every one of his guys and that may have very little effect on the teams success.
347 X 5 is 1735 starting slots in D1 basketball (2,082 if you throw in the sixth man). 76 X 10 is 760 starting slots in D1 wrestling. This implies the starting slots are more limited in wrestling and therefor, talent is much more concentrated and harder to climb the ranks. Talent is even more concentrated when one considers how the weight classes distil the talent even further (ie the 285 guy isn't competing at 125).
Now, one would have to know how many total kids are in the recruiting pool for both basketball and wrestling for the above analysis to be truly valid. Might basketball slots be more competitive because there are many more high schoolers playing basketball relative to the number of slots available? Or, are those 760 wrestling slots more competitive because FloNationals etc, weeds out the mediocre kids right away?
My long winded reply is simply to point out that basing the difficulty of a top 25 ranking on the total number of teams in the study is flawed.
And having stated the above...and deferring the other arguments...does anybody think there is significantly more variance between the top 3-5 and bottom 25 in football or basketball?
Finally, while I have no doubt Gavin and Co will return Pitt to a national team power, but when all is said and done...we are fortunate, our sport can allow for a Carelton Haselrig, because wrestling is at its foundation, a sport that honors individuals.
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Don’t understand this long explanation. Very simply it is easier to be in the top 25 competing against 75 other teams vs competing against 346 other teams. How something so simple generated such a rambling response, I don’t understand
Yea, I was too tired and maybe not as organized in my presentation but...
Because it is not so simple, and because I am reacting (OK... OK... overreacting) to how wrestling and wrestlers in general is traditionally viewed by the public. I would prefer wrestling people and people on this blog, to be careful not to be inclined to discount wrestling and Pitts emergence back in to national prominence. There are too many "sports experts" on ESPN/main stream sports, and athletic administrators concerned about revenue, that are already inclined to view wrestling as a secondary sport. Hell, even the money grubbers in the IOC thought wrestling was a second rate fringe sport and tried to get rid of wrestling in the Olympics.
If the MMA did anything well, it sure opened the eyes of the ignorant casual sports observer and talking head on TV, that maybe there is something special about those wrestler guys - those college guys kick the crap out of everyone!
So here is a thought experiment to consider:
Proposition: The NCAA passes a new Title 9-B. This time however, they state the schools can only save money by cutting basketball programs. The result is that basketball programs are cut in half.
Question: When the basketball talent gets redistributed, does that make it easier or more difficult to climb the top 20 ladder.
I suspect a lot of mediocre players lose their scholarships and the talent gets more concentrated in the remaining schools.
Fewer schools means the talent across all the remaining rosters is elevated, which in turn, creates more parity, and makes it harder to climb the top 20.
I would bet on the talent of the #25 team after 9-B law, would routinly beat the #25 team before the law. (The top 3-5 teams or so probably remain significantly above the remaining competition, but that’s another story)
While I admit there may be other factors to consider in my thought experiment, I hope it shows that just because there are fewer teams, does not automatically make the top 25 ranking in the sport of wrestling a second rate achievement.
Fewer teams in competition compared to the "revenue sports" does not translate to second rate athletes or second rate competition. Just look at what those athletes do on the world stage in freestyle competitions and across the world in the MMA.
As for Pitt...out of ten slots, Pitt has five guys in the top 17 - in Gavin and Co first full year!! It might have looked easy to us PA guys, because we are accustomed to that. In reality, that rapid rise is a testament to the quality of the university, the universities wrestling tradition, the talent pool in western PA, and now, having the right guy to develop the kids potential - not because it is inherently easy to get there.
Finally, I am open to other opinions and look forward to being educated.
Because it is not so simple, and because I am reacting (OK... OK... overreacting) to how wrestling and wrestlers in general is traditionally viewed by the public. I would prefer wrestling people and people on this blog, to be careful not to be inclined to discount wrestling and Pitts emergence back in to national prominence. There are too many "sports experts" on ESPN/main stream sports, and athletic administrators concerned about revenue, that are already inclined to view wrestling as a secondary sport. Hell, even the money grubbers in the IOC thought wrestling was a second rate fringe sport and tried to get rid of wrestling in the Olympics.
If the MMA did anything well, it sure opened the eyes of the ignorant casual sports observer and talking head on TV, that maybe there is something special about those wrestler guys - those college guys kick the crap out of everyone!
So here is a thought experiment to consider:
Proposition: The NCAA passes a new Title 9-B. This time however, they state the schools can only save money by cutting basketball programs. The result is that basketball programs are cut in half.
Question: When the basketball talent gets redistributed, does that make it easier or more difficult to climb the top 20 ladder.
I suspect a lot of mediocre players lose their scholarships and the talent gets more concentrated in the remaining schools.
Fewer schools means the talent across all the remaining rosters is elevated, which in turn, creates more parity, and makes it harder to climb the top 20.
I would bet on the talent of the #25 team after 9-B law, would routinly beat the #25 team before the law. (The top 3-5 teams or so probably remain significantly above the remaining competition, but that’s another story)
While I admit there may be other factors to consider in my thought experiment, I hope it shows that just because there are fewer teams, does not automatically make the top 25 ranking in the sport of wrestling a second rate achievement.
Fewer teams in competition compared to the "revenue sports" does not translate to second rate athletes or second rate competition. Just look at what those athletes do on the world stage in freestyle competitions and across the world in the MMA.
As for Pitt...out of ten slots, Pitt has five guys in the top 17 - in Gavin and Co first full year!! It might have looked easy to us PA guys, because we are accustomed to that. In reality, that rapid rise is a testament to the quality of the university, the universities wrestling tradition, the talent pool in western PA, and now, having the right guy to develop the kids potential - not because it is inherently easy to get there.
Finally, I am open to other opinions and look forward to being educated.
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My last comment on this topic.
I think the real measure to focus on is money. Compare dollars spent above and below the top 25 programs in basketball and wrestling.
I am sure wrestling has fewer programs committed financially to success, relative to basketball.
This is why boosters are so important. Even PSU's jump to national dominance, was due to a few people making large donations. Since the total dollars spent for wrestling is relatively small, the money from a large donation will go a very long way.
The RTC's - budgets outside the direct control of universities priorities (i.e. football and basketball) - are changing the landscape in this regard.
I think the real measure to focus on is money. Compare dollars spent above and below the top 25 programs in basketball and wrestling.
I am sure wrestling has fewer programs committed financially to success, relative to basketball.
This is why boosters are so important. Even PSU's jump to national dominance, was due to a few people making large donations. Since the total dollars spent for wrestling is relatively small, the money from a large donation will go a very long way.
The RTC's - budgets outside the direct control of universities priorities (i.e. football and basketball) - are changing the landscape in this regard.
All you have to do if you’re pitt is make a minimum investment in the program and you should be a perennial top 10 team. There’s 76 D1 schools and that includes the Edinboros and Clarions of the world.
So making top 25 in FB isn't a benchmark either since there are only like 113 programs if everything has to be measured against the number of D1 BB teams.
It's apples to oranges.
The gap between the top 5 and 25th is about 40 tournament points and 28-6 or 28-7 in a dual.
Pitt is trending in the right direction and should be competing for the ACC and with a shot at being in top 5 or 6 in a couple of years. Now if you have an expectation of making a run at a team title or heck even getting up there with Iowa, OSU, and PSU you will probably be waiting for a while and end up being disappointed.
