Pitt looked poor today losing to a not that good WVU team today. Cole generated little offense and the allowed a TD with 15 secs to go, losing 3-1. Lost both 149 and 157 in close matches. Holden Heller got himself pinned. That really decided the match. Luca looked pretty good winning close. Reece lost his match which ended the chance for Pitt. Match was essentially over by 197. WVU put out a sub against Nino and Pitt kept Pitzer on bench.
Pitt vs WVU
- Thread starter thom67
- Start date
WVU has seven ranked guys, so they're a pretty decent dual meet team, and they were going with Finnerty no matter what. Cooley got injured against Mac Stout at Midlands and wasn't going to wrestle. But, yeah, I agree with most of your points. It reminds me of what I posted this week when someone asked if Pitt could be a top-five team at NCAAs with Pitzer in the lineup. Part of my reply ...
“Cole is No. 1, but he's always going to be in really tight matches and that can go south in a hurry. Same with Micky.
The Hellers are hella fun to watch, but the go-for-broke style can also backfire.”
The Hellers are hella fun to watch, but the go-for-broke style can also backfire.”
It's just hard to tell what you're going to get out of some of them.The Steelers schedule comes out way in advance. There’s no reason to schedule this opposite of a Steelers home game.
Overall terrible match, but maybe it’s better that Cole lost and got that target and pressure off his back. hopefully he can open up a little bit or get his opponents to open up a bit so he can be offensive.
I think all Week 18 games are flex games. Could have been yesterday, today, tonight or Monday night. But I'd have still pushed for a different start time after it came out last week.
For as much as we want to put some blame on the Steelers game, that really shouldn't be an excuse for the Hellers. They shouldnt care at all.
But really, this match came down to Cole's loss. If he wins, its an 18-14 match going into 285. Can point to Holden's pin but even if he loses a decision, its a 7 point match going to 285. That was a 3 point swing from expected whereas Cole's was 6 points.
Every other decision loss besides Camacho could be chalked up to just losing a toss up match.
But really, this match came down to Cole's loss. If he wins, its an 18-14 match going into 285. Can point to Holden's pin but even if he loses a decision, its a 7 point match going to 285. That was a 3 point swing from expected whereas Cole's was 6 points.
Every other decision loss besides Camacho could be chalked up to just losing a toss up match.
That is correct, except no Monday night games in week 18. The two Saturday games were scheduled last Sunday evening, and the game times for all the games today were not determined until Monday, except the Cincinnati - Baltimore game, which didn't get a time until Tuesday.
So, interesting parallel here with track. I feel like a lot of coaches at the collegiate level have to decide how they're going to structure their teams: do you want to be a dual-meet team (ie: lots of depth, very good at all events) or a team win through individual placing team (ie: zone in on one event or group)? Because it seems like based on some of the commentary about this match, WVU might be a better dual-meet team whereas we've got more high-end talent and therefore a better NCAA team.
Pitt track, to the extent that you can call it an actual strategy, seems to go for the former and orients it around the 400 and the jumps. Do wrestling coaches have to think about it the same way?
Pitt track, to the extent that you can call it an actual strategy, seems to go for the former and orients it around the 400 and the jumps. Do wrestling coaches have to think about it the same way?
Yes. While the best team (PSU) is number 1 in dual and tournament there are teams who are top heavy and perform better in tournaments and well rounded teams that perform better in duals
It should be added that while Cael cares about duals he builds his teams for March and the season plan is to be peaking in March.
I am Happy if we are a top 20 dual meet team but in all honesty its how you finish that matters. How many AA we get in the tournament ultimately is what matters. It goes a long way to getting recruits that want the same, being top 20 team is not that important in recruiting.
At least until there is a dual meet championship as well. No real reason that there isnt one already.
It would be fun but when would you hold the championship and who would organize it, the NCAA is not going to hold two championships for one sport.
I might be wrong on the NCAA part according to some of the rumors from what should be credible people going around twitter right now
Im sure they are involved in a dual meet tournament not existing. It just seems really silly to even have dual meets, or at least have a team score, if they really dont mean anything at the end of the day. In the end, what does the Maryland or WVU losses mean to Pitt's season? Absolutely nothing
That is the problem with any individual sport that rewards a team title. The dual meet format works for travel and getting guys' matches but wrestling is only a team sport in March.
Should just blow it up then and use the format they used around covid where you have your main lineup and additional matches for the backups after. Might as well get everyone wrestling if its just to get matches
The biggest issue about a dual tournament is when you have it, wrestlers are going to balk at anything before the individual tournament and you are going to be hard pressed to get any of the top seniors who are transitioning to freestyle to take part.
Just not sure where you shoehorn it into the current schedule.
Do you have 2 conference tournaments?
When you actually sit down and think about it becomes harder to see it happening.
Just not sure where you shoehorn it into the current schedule.
Do you have 2 conference tournaments?
When you actually sit down and think about it becomes harder to see it happening.
If they had it the weekend after nationals, I dont see how it wouldnt work. Id also be surprised if seniors wouldnt want one more weekend of competition for their school. If they dont want that, then why did they ever compete in college in the first place? Just go straight to freestyle comp a la Aaron Pico and dont bother with the burden of collegiate folkstyle wrestling.
I think the format should be conference champs (dual record) with remaining teams filled out via top ranked dual teams to fill a 16 team, single elimination bracket. First two rounds on Saturday, final two on Sunday
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I am pretty sure it is a NCAA rule. There not 2 championships in one sport. Also many coaches are against having the dual meet championship. The big concern is when to have the dual meet championship. It doesn’t work unless it is early in the season. And no one wants a championship early in the season. It cannot be late in the season because of the NCAA team championships and conference championships.
If it were after the nationals, top wrestlers would not want to compete. They just finished a long demanding couple weeks of wrestling. They are beat up, many have injuries. Also wrestling fans will not go to that championship after spending thousands of dollars going to the team championships the week before. A lot of people do work and cannot travel 3 weeks in a row. There used to be a National Duals early in the season. Most years teams like Iowa and PSU would not attend. Attendance was poor.
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One idea I heard before was have a dual championship that adds points to the individual tournament. You wouldn’t be giving out 2 championships but this would give teams incentive to put their best lineups out there.
1st place in the team dual tournament adds 15 points to their team total in the individual tournament.
2nd place adds 12
3rd place adds 10
And so on.
1st place in the team dual tournament adds 15 points to their team total in the individual tournament.
2nd place adds 12
3rd place adds 10
And so on.
Not too many people arguing against a dual team championship. The problem when to have it?
Hey, everyone. It's been a crazy week, so I haven't been able to check in, but I did want to give my 2 cents.
I don't see a dual meet championship ever happening after the individual tournament. If you want to see what that tournament does to people, check out this gallery from when it was in Madison Square Garden: https://www.newyorker.com/culture/photo-booth/the-faces-of-college-wrestlers
And that's not even taking weight into consideration. These guys have been sucking weight for so long, extending the season by another week would be torture for some. Like Coach Gavin said about Micky Phillippi, he's been making a lighter weight than he did in high school for the past 7 years. Can't see a guy like him wanting to go another week, even if it is for the team.
The percentage of top guys missing from the team competition would be way higher than football players opting out of bowl games.
I think the biggest thing to understand is this: College wrestling is really, really hard. Mentally and physically. The season is already way too long. There's already a significant movement to switch to a single-semester sport, and I think it has to go that way. That's a big part of why we're seeing top guys skip competitions. Start it in January. Yeah, you'd still have to watch your weight during Christmas, but at least you could enjoy Thanksgiving. Plus, an NCAA tournament in April would get away from trying to compete with March Madness on TV, although baseball season would be starting, so ESPN might be more reluctant to air it.
With all of that being said, I am a big proponent of a duals title. I was fortunate enough to wrestle in the National Duals and it's one of the highlights of my career. I wasn't good enough to make the NCAA tournament, but I loved competing with my teammates on a big stage.
The rumor has always been that Cael didn't like the national duals and that's why it went away. I'm not sure if that's true or not. Having Nick Suriano get hurt in the PSU-Okie State match certainly didn't help its legacy. I think many top coaches would love to see it - or some format, such as the bonus points for the individual tournament - return. That's hard, though, if the biggest name in the sport fights it.
The great thing about duals is they're accessible to the general public. Only hard-core fans are going to an eight-hour tournament but if we truly want to "grow the sport" we need to focus on duals. You can attract a casual or maybe even a new fan with a two-hour dual.
I don't see a dual meet championship ever happening after the individual tournament. If you want to see what that tournament does to people, check out this gallery from when it was in Madison Square Garden: https://www.newyorker.com/culture/photo-booth/the-faces-of-college-wrestlers
And that's not even taking weight into consideration. These guys have been sucking weight for so long, extending the season by another week would be torture for some. Like Coach Gavin said about Micky Phillippi, he's been making a lighter weight than he did in high school for the past 7 years. Can't see a guy like him wanting to go another week, even if it is for the team.
The percentage of top guys missing from the team competition would be way higher than football players opting out of bowl games.
I think the biggest thing to understand is this: College wrestling is really, really hard. Mentally and physically. The season is already way too long. There's already a significant movement to switch to a single-semester sport, and I think it has to go that way. That's a big part of why we're seeing top guys skip competitions. Start it in January. Yeah, you'd still have to watch your weight during Christmas, but at least you could enjoy Thanksgiving. Plus, an NCAA tournament in April would get away from trying to compete with March Madness on TV, although baseball season would be starting, so ESPN might be more reluctant to air it.
With all of that being said, I am a big proponent of a duals title. I was fortunate enough to wrestle in the National Duals and it's one of the highlights of my career. I wasn't good enough to make the NCAA tournament, but I loved competing with my teammates on a big stage.
The rumor has always been that Cael didn't like the national duals and that's why it went away. I'm not sure if that's true or not. Having Nick Suriano get hurt in the PSU-Okie State match certainly didn't help its legacy. I think many top coaches would love to see it - or some format, such as the bonus points for the individual tournament - return. That's hard, though, if the biggest name in the sport fights it.
The great thing about duals is they're accessible to the general public. Only hard-core fans are going to an eight-hour tournament but if we truly want to "grow the sport" we need to focus on duals. You can attract a casual or maybe even a new fan with a two-hour dual.
While you arent wrong here, I have to add that most of these guys today are wrestling far fewer matches than they did a few years ago. How many college guys are wrestling 30-40 matches in a season right now? Not many. So I have to push back on the physical freshness angle. Plus, most of these guys wrestle year round now anyway.
I definitely agree about the grow the sport aspect. Some duals are downright thrilling. Would be even better if they actually meant something
Real Woods looking very good tonight, if he stays healthy Cole needs to be on the opposite of him come march
Everything is about the NCAA tournament. Does anyone think Kizhan Clarke cares about his loss to Cole in the dual last year? No. He beat him in the NCAA semis.
Three things have changed the mindset about the college season:
1. Penn State's success. Cael is the master of getting his guys ready for March, whatever it takes. They look fresh when they get to NCAAs in part because every practice isn't contested like it's the NCAA final. Contrast that with Iowa, which has that old-school mindset that every second of preparation is critical. The Hawkeyes often limp into March with big, bulky braces on nearly every wrestler. Given their success, Penn State is the model that most are going to emulate.
2. COVID. I had a college coach tell me last week that the shortened COVID season made wrestlers realize that they don't have to wrestle 40 matches a season. They feel better in March when they were fresher.
3. As you mentioned, they now wrestle year-round. It used to be that almost every college wrestler went all out from late November to early to mid-March, then took seven months off from competition. Now, summer wrestling is almost as important - if not more important - than the college season. If they have dreams of making a living as a wrestler, it's going to be in freestyle. Even with NIL deals, folkstyle isn't going to pay the bills or get them World or Olympic medals.
