Preseason position grades

[kma0043]

Just to have some actual Pitt conversation on this board I figure I’d post a preseason position grade post and hopefully get some conversation going. Be interested in hearing others’ thoughts:

Quarterbacks: B
Yarnell seems to be a decent qb and Holstein adds some interesting potential.
Running Backs: B
Hammond and a lot of young potential at the position.
Wide Receivers: C+
Hard to know what Kenny Johnson will truly be. Will Mumpfield do ok in new system? Pretty thin, unproven position.
Offensive Line: B
Hopefully quick reads will reduce the pass protect pressure.
Tight Ends: B-
What is behind Bartholomew? And who knows if he will get targets.
Defensive Line: D+
The most concerning position on the team. Be interesting to see how much Edwards plays.
Linebackers: B
Loveless looked ok last year. Bass should see some more time and George is like 26 y/o.
Secondary: B+
Might be the deepest area on the team. Going to really need them to hang on to interceptable balls.
Kicker: B
Sauls is a decent collegiate kicker with a big leg.
Punter: F
Guaranteed to suck.

Looks forward to hearing from everyone!!
H2P

 

[TheWerewolfFromTwilight]

QB: C-
RB: B-
OL: C
TE: B-
WR: C-

DT: C-
DE: D
LB: B+
S: A-
CB: D

Sauls: A-
Whoever the punter is: F-

 

[cruzer]

QB: C+
RB: C+
OL: C
TE: C
WR: C-

DT: C-
DE: D
LB: B
S: A-
CB: C

Sauls: A-
Whoever the punter is: ???

 

[cashisking884]

Relative to the average ACC or P4 team? Or relative to another unit on Pitt?

Pick 6 Preview has Pitt at in the ACC:

QB 16
RB 13
WR-TE: 16
OL: 12
DL: 8
LB: 17
DB:7

Phil Steele is a little more positive and has it:

QB: 12
RB: 11
WR: 15
OL: 10
DL: 8
LB: 11
DB: 13

Could they be off here and there, sure. But very few of those rankings should be a B, and a few should be a D.

Unless the argument is no P4 team actually has a “D,” that’s reserved for G5 teams. And so the lowest a P4 unit can go is like a C. Then that makes more sense.

 

[Pittisit4me]

I'm starting to think our new offense could make us a better offense than our defense this year. I am really worried about stopping the run after what we did last year.

 

[KennyTheKangaroo]

The low ratings for yarnell are just lazy. All the dude has done is complete passes downfield and avoided turnovers. Over 9 yards per attempt in 60 pass attempts. If some guy at Ohio state did that, he would be hailed as the messiah.

 

[cashisking884]

The low ratings for yarnell are just lazy. All the dude has done is complete passes downfield and avoided turnovers. Over 9 yards per attempt in 60 pass attempts. If some guy at Ohio state did that, he would be hailed as the messiah.

Two of his 3 starts were against 2023 Boston College and something called Western Michigan.

F+ has 2022 W Michigan’s defense ranked 80th. 2023 Boston College 94th.

What would a bad QB’s numbers be against that level of defense?

 

[KennyTheKangaroo]

bro have you watched Pitt football? Phil jurkovic vs cinci? Villieux in his few starts? Slovis? Max browne? Ben dinucci?

 

[Zeldas Open Roof]

our running backs collectively, are not good. i kind of like hammond but that's about it. a small fcs caliber transfer and a former Dback for backups..

our leading Rusher wont have over 700 yards..

 

[cashisking884]

bro have you watched Pitt football? Phil jurkovic vs cinci? Villieux in his few starts? Slovis? Max browne? Ben dinucci?

Sure. And that is maybe justification for not giving him an F.

But you’re pointing to a small sample size. There are QBs that throw that number of passes in one single start.
And of that sample size, 2 of the defenses were the absolute worst tier of defenses it can possibly be.

And saying, “anybody giving him a low ranking is being lazy.”

We get he’s better than perhaps the worst QBs in all of college football (one of which apparently beat him out). But that doesn’t mean he isn’t a JAG either, right?

 

[Millerton]

Two of his 3 starts were against 2023 Boston College and something called Western Michigan.

F+ has 2022 W Michigan’s defense ranked 80th. 2023 Boston College 94th.

What would a bad QB’s numbers be against that level of defense?

That's all he played. He's new to it all as well. Let him start 6, 7, 8 games then you can really form an opinion. For a few games, I think he played pretty well.

 

[fullcourt67]

Just to have some actual Pitt conversation on this board I figure I’d post a preseason position grade post and hopefully get some conversation going. Be interested in hearing others’ thoughts:

Quarterbacks: B
Yarnell seems to be a decent qb and Holstein adds some interesting potential.
Running Backs: B
Hammond and a lot of young potential at the position.
Wide Receivers: C+
Hard to know what Kenny Johnson will truly be. Will Mumpfield do ok in new system? Pretty thin, unproven position.
Offensive Line: B
Hopefully quick reads will reduce the pass protect pressure.
Tight Ends: B-
What is behind Bartholomew? And who knows if he will get targets.
Defensive Line: D+
The most concerning position on the team. Be interesting to see how much Edwards plays.
Linebackers: B
Loveless looked ok last year. Bass should see some more time and George is like 26 y/o.
Secondary: B+
Might be the deepest area on the team. Going to really need them to hang on to interceptable balls.
Kicker: B
Sauls is a decent collegiate kicker with a big leg.
Punter: F
Guaranteed to suck.

Looks forward to hearing from everyone!!
H2P

They better be fast!

 

[Gunga_Galunga]

Relative to the average ACC or P4 team? Or relative to another unit on Pitt?

Pick 6 Preview has Pitt at in the ACC:

QB 16
RB 13
WR-TE: 16
OL: 12
DL: 8
LB: 17
DB:7

Phil Steele is a little more positive and has it:

QB: 12
RB: 11
WR: 15
OL: 10
DL: 8
LB: 11
DB: 13

Could they be off here and there, sure. But very few of those rankings should be a B, and a few should be a D.

Unless the argument is no P4 team actually has a “D,” that’s reserved for G5 teams. And so the lowest a P4 unit can go is like a C. Then that makes more sense.

That first set of numbers says I don't know anything about the Pitt football roster.

Steele's is better, while off on some it at least shows some knowledge of the team.

 

[cashisking884]

That first set of numbers says I don't know anything about the Pitt football roster.

why is that?

 

[cashisking884]

That's all he played. He's new to it all as well. Let him start 6, 7, 8 games then you can really form an opinion.

If the reports are to be believed, there’s a chance he might not start even one more game.

 

[Gunga_Galunga]

why is that?

Anyone putting the Pitt LB position last in the ACC has no idea what they're talking about. None.

It's understandable because there's no way these guys can know every team. It's also why these expert predictions aren't worth squat.

It's like Mandel's prediction. I bet he can't name 5 players on the Pitt team, or many of the other ACC teams.

 

[cashisking884]

Anyone putting the Pitt LB position last in the ACC has no idea what they're talking about. None.

It's understandable because there's no way these guys can know every team. It's also why these expert predictions aren't worth squat.

It's like Mandel's prediction. I bet he can't name 5 players on the Pitt team, or many of the other ACC teams.

Where should the LB core be in the ACC?

I’ll add that Athlon has it 15 in the ACC.

 

[Gunga_Galunga]

Where should the LB core be in the ACC?

I’ll add that Athlon has it 15 in the ACC.

Middle of the pack at worst, and certainly higher than the defensive line. I'll also venture the OL will be top half of the ACC.

These guys essentially throw darts. That's all it is.

 

[cashisking884]

Middle of the pack at worst, and certainly higher than the defensive line. I'll also venture the OL will be top half of the ACC.

These guys essentially throw darts. That's all it is.

OL was bad last year. If you want to argue the new scheme will help mitigate that, or the old scheme put a microscope to it, I can buy that.

But if you’re 119th in OL push, you suck. For whatever reason that might be.

 

[pittguy81]

OL was bad last year. If you want to argue the new scheme will help mitigate that, or the old scheme put a microscope to it, I can buy that.

But if you’re 119th in OL push, you suck. For whatever reason that might be.

And how, exactly do you rank OL Push?

 

[cashisking884]

And how, exactly do you rank OL Push?

it’s like looking at line yards per carry

 

[Gunga_Galunga]

OL was bad last year. If you want to argue the new scheme will help mitigate that, or the old scheme put a microscope to it, I can buy that.

But if you’re 119th in OL push, you suck. For whatever reason that might be.

The entire offense was bad last year. The OL also dealt with a ton of injuries from training camp throughout the year. The benefit was a lot of guys had to play who are in line to play this year.

You'd actually need to pay attention to the team to know this. I'm sure the experts simply looked at some obscure stat like OL push and went from there.

 

[BreakingPitt]

Those grades don't look soo good.

 

[cashisking884]

The entire offense was bad last year. The OL also dealt with a ton of injuries from training camp throughout the year. The benefit was a lot of guys had to play who are in line to play this year.

But the OL still wasn’t good.

You’re giving reasons as to why they weren’t good.

But I don’t see any reason as to why somebody should believe it will be some “plus” OL, and therefore evidence that national people don’t know what they are talking about.

 

[cashisking884]

Peak was talking on the pod today about how the NC State transfer OL has won the starting C position as of today. And Peak is surprised by this because Moore was the “anchor” of the OL.

Now maybe the NC State guy is really good. But he graded out as the third worst player on NC State’s team per PFF. 247 has him as a 84 as a college player (so bad). And NC State coaches didn’t let him play the second half of the season.

When guys that have objectively been bad throughout 3 years of college football and couldn’t start for an ACC team, are stepping on campus and taking the job from the “anchor” OL, that’s not the best evidence that rating the OL as a lower tier group is “lazy” and could only be from someone that doesn’t know anything about the team.

 

[Zeldas Open Roof]

im pretty high on our OL, especially the tackles. im down big time on our RBs, mediocre at very best. think hammond is a tough runner but not a guy that will "break a game" for you and well, nothing behind him..


high on our backers because of the reports from Chris, high on safeties too. dont see that "sack threat" from our DEs which scares me.. if our DEs cant get to the qb, that domino effect in this defense is staggering. might have to rely on our Backers to blitz alot more than they feel comfortable.

that 30% blitz rule from Narduzzi might have to change to a 40% rule.

 

[Gunga_Galunga]

But the OL still wasn’t good.

You’re giving reasons as to why they weren’t good.

But I don’t see any reason as to why somebody should believe it will be some “plus” OL, and therefore evidence that national people don’t know what they are talking about.

It was in the text you quoted.

Baer had to start 9 games as a RS freshman
Williams had to start 6 games as a true freshman
Moore had to start 9 games as a RS sophomore.

Jacoby is back from injury, at worst case is good depth. I don't know anything about kid from NC St other than he was hurt last year amd basically lost his starting job because of it. If he beats out Moore then I'll assume he's better and an upgrade. Maybe Moore slides to G or he's a backup.

The experts you're posting position rankings from couldn't name 2 starters on the Pitt OL.

 

[cashisking884]

It was in the text you quoted.

Baer had to start 9 games as a RS freshman
Williams had to start 6 games as a true freshman
Moore had to start 9 games as a RS sophomore.

Jacoby is back from injury, at worst case is good depth. I don't know anything about kid from NC St other than he was hurt last year amd basically lost his starting job because of it. If he beats out Moore then I'll assume he's better and an upgrade. Maybe Moore slides to G or he's a backup.

The experts you're posting position rankings from couldn't name 2 starters on the Pitt OL.

1. That’s why you think they sucked. I get it. Youth on the OL can cause problems.
But your argument is that only people that don’t know the team, would think they aren’t good. But you have only excused why they sucked. There’s not much to believe they are so good these experts are wrong.


2. You’re wrong about the NC State player. He was injured early to start the season. Missed one game. He recovered from the injury. Was put into the starting lineup. And even started for NC State at center, the position he walked on campus and one the job from one of the veterans you’re saying is good because of experience. And was apparently so bad at NC State they benched him. And never played him again. There’s no reason to pretend like an injury is why he was benched.

3. Steele has an entire write up on the Pitt OL. Detailing everything you’ve stated in this thread. Steele literally sits down with Narduzzi once a summer to get insight into the team.

 

[Gunga_Galunga]

1. That’s why you think they sucked. I get it. Youth on the OL can cause problems.
But your argument is that only people that don’t know the team, would think they aren’t good. But you have only excused why they sucked. There’s not much to believe they are so good these experts are wrong.


2. You’re wrong about the NC State player. He was injured early to start the season. Missed one game. He recovered from the injury. Was put into the starting lineup. And even started for NC State at center, the position he walked on campus and one the job from one of the veterans you’re saying is good because of experience. And was apparently so bad at NC State they benched him. And never played him again. There’s no reason to pretend like an injury is why he was benched.

3. Steele has an entire write up on the Pitt OL. Detailing everything you’ve stated in this thread. Steele literally sits down with Narduzzi once a summer to get insight into the team.

You are the one that said the OL sucked. I said the entire offense was bad, and also pointed out the injuries forcing young guys to play early on the OL, which can help in future years.

The one know nothing you referenced had them 17th. It's cool, I understand he doesn't know anything and throws darts.

I also said I don't know anything about the NCSU transfer other than a few blurbs some reporter wrote. They happen to be the same blurbs you're referencing. If he beats out Moore then he's likely an upgrade.

In case you missed it, I actually said Steele's ratings were better in one of the posts above. He had them 10th, which is a lot better than 17th, and not far off from what I said. You're making my point with your talk about Steele and him knowing the team better.

So yeah, back to the original point.... Pick 6 Preview (whoever that is) doesn't know anything about the Pitt football team.

 

[cashisking884]

You are the one that said the OL sucked. I said the entire offense was bad, and also pointed out the injuries forcing young guys to play early on the OL, which can help in future years.

The one know nothing you referenced had them 17th. It's cool, I understand he doesn't know anything and throws darts.

I also said I don't know anything about the NCSU transfer other than a few blurbs some reporter wrote. They happen to be the same blurbs you're referencing. If he beats out Moore then he's likely an upgrade.

In case you missed it, I actually said Steele's ratings were better in one of the posts above. He had them 10th, which is a lot better than 17th, and not far off from what I said. You're making my point with your talk about Steele and him knowing the team better.

So yeah, back to the original point.... Pick 6 Preview (whoever that is) doesn't know anything about the Pitt football team.

This seems to be semantics.
“You’re saying the OL was bad.”
“I’m saying the entire offense was bad.”

What is the practical difference?

And I get it. A bad OL can get good with experience. It can also stay bad. Lots of teams return an OL with tons of experience that I would not want to trade units with.

And yes, if he beats out Moore he’s clearly an upgrade. But that’s not really the point. If he’s an upgrade, what does that say about the returning talent?
This isn’t that difficult of an argument to grasp. If arguably the worst player on NC State’s team beats out the experienced player on Pitt’s team, that is some evidence that maybe the the returning talent isn’t that talented, it’s just returning. Which is some evidence that the rankings that have Pitt as a bad OL, aren’t “lazy.” Or could be made by somebody that knows that they are talking about.

If you have the 10th OL in the conference, you don’t have a “plus” OL. So Steele is just slightly less wrong than the other person is what what you’re saying?

 

[Gunga_Galunga]

This seems to be semantics.
“You’re saying the OL was bad.”
“I’m saying the entire offense was bad.”

What is the practical difference?

And I get it. A bad OL can get good with experience. It can also stay bad. Lots of teams return an OL with tons of experience that I would not want to trade units with.

And yes, if he beats out Moore he’s clearly an upgrade. But that’s not really the point. If he’s an upgrade, what does that say about the returning talent?
This isn’t that difficult of an argument to grasp. If arguably the worst player on NC State’s team beats out the experienced player on Pitt’s team, that is some evidence that maybe the the returning talent isn’t that talented, it’s just returning. Which is some evidence that the rankings that have Pitt as a bad OL, aren’t “lazy.” Or could be made by somebody that knows that they are talking about.

If you have the 10th OL in the conference, you don’t have a “plus” OL. So Steele is just slightly less wrong than the other person is what what you’re saying?

The offense was a mess all year, and suffered from PJ who had a dead arm and turnover machine Veilleux. Hammond was hurt or in the doghouse. Offensive line was the only thing close to average on offense. And it was made up of young guys who were thrown in their earlier than expected.

What can you possibly know about Cooper other than some PFF grade that was assigned to him by who knows who? You bag on him for going to the bench after a few starts when the center returned, but the NC State center was a senior who ended up getting drafted. The kid who stepped in for him at G (when he was hurt) ended up being pretty good. NC State's had a good OL for years. I don't know if he's any good, and neither do you.

I guess we'll find out how good or bad they'll be.

 

[Pitt2009]

bro have you watched Pitt football? Phil jurkovic vs cinci? Villieux in his few starts? Slovis? Max browne? Ben dinucci?

Two of those guys are on NFL rosters.

 

[cashisking884]

The offense was a mess all year, and suffered from PJ who had a dead arm and turnover machine Veilleux. Hammond was hurt or in the doghouse. Offensive line was the only thing close to average on offense. And it was made up of young guys who were thrown in their earlier than expected.

What can you possibly know about Cooper other than some PFF grade that was assigned to him by who knows who?

I know the NC State coaches stopped putting him on the field. Not just stopped starting him, but stopped letting him touch grass for them.

I’m not arguing anything definitive can be taken from that. I’m simply saying it’s *some* evidence that he’s not a “plus” OL. And therefore, the fact that he has beaten out the returning anchor of the OL, is *some* evidence, even if not definitive, of the quality of the returning OL. And so maybe the two analytic guys that routinely have the two most accurate preview magazines, know *something.*

It’s just funny to me the idea that you have to really follow the team, to have great insight. Peak follows the team. Do you think he gives great rationale to his 8-5 (somehow predicting the result of a bowl game with an opponent he’s keeping unknown) prediction? He said just this week that he’s talking himself into certain positions based on what is basically vibes and feels. He substitutes “intriguing” for “unknown.”

It’s not exactly some well thought out reasoning you can only get from someone that is plugged into the team.

 

[Gunga_Galunga]

Based on Narduzzi's comments, it looks like Cooper will be the starting center and Moore is battling Jacoby at Guard. Always thought Jacoby was the most likely to be a backup behind either Cooper or Moore. Even if Jacoby starts, he might not hold that job long. He can backup G and OT.

It's possible that Cooper is better at center than guard, and also possible that Moore is a better guard than center. There weren't many options when Kradel went down last year and Moore stepped in.

I don't think anyone mistakes Peak for a talent evaluator or football prognosticator.

 

[Atch]

Just to have some actual Pitt conversation on this board I figure I’d post a preseason position grade post and hopefully get some conversation going. Be interested in hearing others’ thoughts:

Quarterbacks: B
Yarnell seems to be a decent qb and Holstein adds some interesting potential.
Running Backs: B
Hammond and a lot of young potential at the position.
Wide Receivers: C+
Hard to know what Kenny Johnson will truly be. Will Mumpfield do ok in new system? Pretty thin, unproven position.
Offensive Line: B
Hopefully quick reads will reduce the pass protect pressure.
Tight Ends: B-
What is behind Bartholomew? And who knows if he will get targets.
Defensive Line: D+
The most concerning position on the team. Be interesting to see how much Edwards plays.
Linebackers: B
Loveless looked ok last year. Bass should see some more time and George is like 26 y/o.
Secondary: B+
Might be the deepest area on the team. Going to really need them to hang on to interceptable balls.
Kicker: B
Sauls is a decent collegiate kicker with a big leg.
Punter: F
Guaranteed to suck.

Looks forward to hearing from everyone!!
H2P

Holstein adds interesting potential only because he came from Bama

 

[cashisking884]

I don't think anyone mistakes Peak for a talent evaluator or football prognosticator.

I wasn’t really picking on Peak either.

Listen to Bud Elliot’s summer school, and you quickly realize how optimistically delusional almost all beat writers are for these teams. Which makes sense, they are all fans.

Which is why the better takes tend to come from the disinterested national guys. Not the Finebaum types. But the Bill Connelly and Steele types.

 

[TheWerewolfFromTwilight]

From David Hale, who is plugged into the ACC rosters a lot more than anyone on this board:

QB 13
RB 11
WR 14
OL 11

DL 11
LB 14
DB 10
ST 12

So that ain't too good, lol. Linebacker seems a bit low, but I can't argue too much with most of the rest. We should have good safeties, but the huge question marks at CB kind of mitigate the overall DB grade, in my opinion. Nothing about the other six grades sticks out as completely off.

 

[cashisking884]

From David Hale, who is plugged into the ACC rosters a lot more than anyone on this board:

QB 13
RB 11
WR 14
OL 11

DL 11
LB 14
DB 10
ST 12

So that ain't too good, lol. Linebacker seems a bit low, but I can't argue too much with most of the rest. We should have good safeties, but the huge question marks at CB kind of mitigate the overall DB grade, in my opinion. Nothing about the other six grades sticks out as completely off.

Seems like most national guys at least agree that it’s a bottom tier OL. How bottom tier is the issue?

Steele and Hale have it close. Not good, but not the worst.

Pick 6 has it even lower. Which can probably be explained by his heavy use of analytics. If the computer tells him it’s bad, he’s going with the computer.