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Sobering thoughts

Chairman Moe

Chairman Moe

All American
Nov 4, 2003
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Just around the corner from Paradise
Since I am posting this on the basketball board, I'll start with basketball. But this applies to all Pitt sports teams right now

My sobering thought is: where (which conference) could Pitt be competitive, and actually strive for a title? Now, or in the future? Certainly not in the ACC, based on what we've seen over the past decade. Not in the Big XII or SEC (which would never take Pitt, regardless). Maybe in the B1G, but doubtful. And the Big East has been restructured to be mostly Catholic schools and UConn

When you include our other major revenue producing sport - football - Pitt would also be mediocre at best in the Big XII, and less so in the B1G. And while the football program recently won an ACC championship, the league as it stands now will probably have better teams than Pitt on a year-in, year-out basis

Our Olympic sports teams are perhaps the best collectively that we've seen since I can recall. Volleyball, men's and women's soccer, gymnastics, wrestling, and swimming are performing better than BB and FB, and could likely be just as competitive in maybe all other major (P4) conferences save for the B1G. But Pitt's fan base is more connected to BB and FB, and the near misses in winning a National Championship in soccer and volleyball certainly stung

So, does this Pitt fan just "accept" its mediocrity in the two revenue sports and prefer they stay in the ACC? Might a move to a non P4 conference help? The MAC, for example? Or does moving down (for the sake of possibly being a conference winner, more often than not) seem desperate?

Unfortunately to many of us fans, the desire to have Pitt reestablish itself as a relevant program in BB and FB is real. But it ain't happening in the ACC
 
We won a football title just a few years ago, just as a reminder.

That said, our coaching budgets are in the upper tier of the ACC. We aren't getting what we pay for there in either major sport.

Player compensation is less clear, but I assume we're way less competitive there because it's more dependent on direct contributions from fans. It's hard to say where things will end up, but we certainly can afford to field a competitive basketball roster without having to find diamonds in the rough.

If we hired Rick Pitino a couple years ago, we'd be on our way to the tournament.

Money isn't the issue. Performance is. End of story.
 
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Money is a major issue.

Also in the world of mega conferences it’s that much harder to win a championship. I mean if every team were to cycle through and win one, it would take 17 years.

I’d rather play with our peers than drop down to win a championship. And let’s not pretend, if we won the mac most of you would just blow it off as “nothing”.
 
If Indiana can make a football playoff, I would like to think there is some hope. But making the CFP and NCAA field of 68 is likely the ceiling. The ability to actually do damage against the blue bloods in the playoff/tourney is non-existent. If they institute a true salary cap, maybe that can level things across the board, but then it comes to coaches salaries.
 
Go back to Big East and persuade BC and ‘Cuse to do the same. Add Army and Navy. And beg Penn State to join the conference by giving them a bigger share of revenues for the first three years. The Kenny post-grad year was an outlier and Whipple and Addison bolted right after that, leading the exodus that continues to this day. If we don’t do something soon, the revenue sports won’t produce nearly enough revenue.
 
Chairman Moe said:
Since I am posting this on the basketball board, I'll start with basketball. But this applies to all Pitt sports teams right now

My sobering thought is: where (which conference) could Pitt be competitive, and actually strive for a title? Now, or in the future? Certainly not in the ACC, based on what we've seen over the past decade. Not in the Big XII or SEC (which would never take Pitt, regardless). Maybe in the B1G, but doubtful. And the Big East has been restructured to be mostly Catholic schools and UConn

When you include our other major revenue producing sport - football - Pitt would also be mediocre at best in the Big XII, and less so in the B1G. And while the football program recently won an ACC championship, the league as it stands now will probably have better teams than Pitt on a year-in, year-out basis

Our Olympic sports teams are perhaps the best collectively that we've seen since I can recall. Volleyball, men's and women's soccer, gymnastics, wrestling, and swimming are performing better than BB and FB, and could likely be just as competitive in maybe all other major (P4) conferences save for the B1G. But Pitt's fan base is more connected to BB and FB, and the near misses in winning a National Championship in soccer and volleyball certainly stung

So, does this Pitt fan just "accept" its mediocrity in the two revenue sports and prefer they stay in the ACC? Might a move to a non P4 conference help? The MAC, for example? Or does moving down (for the sake of possibly being a conference winner, more often than not) seem desperate?

Unfortunately to many of us fans, the desire to have Pitt reestablish itself as a relevant program in BB and FB is real. But it ain't happening in the ACC
Click to expand...
I don’t want relevant. Just give me one incredible year.
 
Pitt666 said:
If Indiana can make a football playoff, I would like to think there is some hope. But making the CFP and NCAA field of 68 is likely the ceiling. The ability to actually do damage against the blue bloods in the playoff/tourney is non-existent. If they institute a true salary cap, maybe that can level things across the board, but then it comes to coaches salaries.
Click to expand...
If the current playoff existed 3 football seasons ago, we would have made it. Hopefully we don't have to wait another 20 years for another conference championship this time, but there is legitimate hope there.

I still find last year's March madness snub to be the one of the most disappointing ends to a season as a fan. That team could have done a lot of damage in the tournament.

We can do it. The school provides more resources to its teams than other schools that significantly outperform us on a regular basis. Are we going to be Alabama football and Duke basketball rolled into one? No. But there's no reason for perpetual underperformance either.
 
ThePanthers said:
Money is a major issue.

Also in the world of mega conferences it’s that much harder to win a championship. I mean if every team were to cycle through and win one, it would take 17 years.

I’d rather play with our peers than drop down to win a championship. And let’s not pretend, if we won the mac most of you would just blow it off as “nothing”.
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How is money a major issue? Take a look at what Duzz and Capel are paid. Our facilities are above average still as far as I'm aware. Yet our results are well below average for a P4 school. Why is that?
 
AllegeneeGenacGenac said:
How is money a major issue? Take a look at what Duzz and Capel are paid. Our facilities are above average still as far as I'm aware. Yet our results are well below average for a P4 school. Why is that?
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NIL. That is what counts in the new landscape and we lag far behind. It's about buying players now, and we are shopping at Gabes.
 
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It’s straightforward…2 mediocre or worse HCs whose ex boss wouldn’t know a quality HC if one bit her on the tailend indiscriminately OVER extended their contracts the first time they showed a pulse ignoring years of other data clearly showing these guys had major flaws.
 
Rupart33 said:
NIL. That is what counts in the new landscape and we lag far behind. It's about buying players now, and we are shopping at Gabes.
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Not in basketball. We paid Lowe, Leggett, and Austin good money. And got decent (on paper) transfers in Corhen and Dunn, who are making something.

Its not expensive to compete in basketball. You need 3 players.
 
Agree Moe

Both programs needed stabilized and had 2 nice years

Both programs had great starts this year starting 3-0 in ACC and getting ranked

Both teams failed miserably in a road showdown for first place

Both teams lost heartbreaking games at home to playoff worthly Clemson teams

And both seasons essentially were ended with losses at home to poor UVa team and crashed and burned with the worst yet to come for basketball

Capel is a good man but he’s no coach unless he has Duke level talent
 
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Sean Miller Fan said:
Not in basketball. We paid Lowe, Leggett, and Austin good money. And got decent (on paper) transfers in Corhen and Dunn, who are making something.

Its not expensive to compete in basketball. You need 3 players.
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We're behind in all NIL, and it does matter in basketball. Have you not noticed all the players we miss on? You continually talk as if you know how much players are getting paid, and you have no idea. I do agree that it costs less than putting together a winning football team, but I think everyone realizes that. Combine our poor NIL with the bad talent evaluation, not to mention the coaching, and this is where we are.
 
Sean Miller Fan said:
Not in basketball. We paid Lowe, Leggett, and Austin good money. And got decent (on paper) transfers in Corhen and Dunn, who are making something.

Its not expensive to compete in basketball. You need 3 players.
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Pitt just doesn't have the correct person to judge the talent or coach the talent to perform upto their salary.
 
Rupart33 said:
NIL. That is what counts in the new landscape and we lag far behind. It's about buying players now, and we are shopping at Gabes.
Click to expand...

We have a coach who is shopping at Nordstrom and being told he needs to go to Nordstrom Rack or Gabe's. He can't afford the talent he is recruiting.
 
AllegeneeGenacGenac said:
How is money a major issue? Take a look at what Duzz and Capel are paid. Our facilities are above average still as far as I'm aware. Yet our results are well below average for a P4 school. Why is that?
Click to expand...
Money is an issue because almost every SEC/B1G and a few B12/ACC athletic departments would never have made such bad unforced errors in overpaying for such obviously mediocre coaches and/or would be very able to cut loose such badly overmatched and overpaid coaches.

This Pitt situation is precisely where the money situation gets exposed.
 
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Rupart33 said:
We're behind in all NIL, and it does matter in basketball. Have you not noticed all the players we miss on? You continually talk as if you know how much players are getting paid, and you have no idea. I do agree that it costs less than putting together a winning football team, but I think everyone realizes that. Combine our poor NIL with the bad talent evaluation, not to mention the coaching, and this is where we are.
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So people who claim that we are competitive in NIL spending can't be correct because we don't know for sure how much players are getting.

Please share the data you have that allows you to be certain we aren't competitive then, because you must have something given comments like this one.
 
rmf05 said:
Money is an issue because almost every SEC/B1G and a few B12/ACC athletic departments would never have made such bad unforced errors in overpaying for such obviously mediocre coaches and/or would be very able to cut loose such badly overmatched and overpaid coaches.

This Pitt situation is precisely where the money situation gets exposed.
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Okay, that's an angle where I'd agree money is an issue. I have been looking at it solely from the school's financial commitment to athletics, which should be enough to produce better results than we've been seeing for the last decade.

I agree poor decisions have left us financially overcommitted to people who are underperforming, and we don't have the resources (hint: buyouts don't generally come from the school itself) to spend our way out of these mistakes.
 
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Lowe’s play has gone south in the last 10 games, he plays out of control, foul shooting ? Penetrating, loses the ball at times, not very good shooting 3’s total regression
 
AllegeneeGenacGenac said:
So people who claim that we are competitive in NIL spending can't be correct because we don't know for sure how much players are getting.

Please share the data you have that allows you to be certain we aren't competitive then, because you must have something given comments like this one.
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I don't have the payroll reports for Pitt basketball, and wouldn't share them on the internet if I did. I am basing this on the players we have vs the players we miss out on. As a fanbase we get excited about possibly bringing a player onboard but consistently miss out on the high level difference makers. (They type that our coach absolutely needs to have a chance to be competitive). This tells me we are not as competitive as we need to be in NIL. Our fanbase has historically lagged our peers in giving, so I don't believe we magically have created some competitive NIL situation. On top of that, our previous AD apparently didn't do much to push NIL which is likely one of many reasons she was let go.

Having said all that, I don't think $ is our biggest problem. A good coach who can evaluate talent would have us in a much better spot.
 
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Rupart33 said:
I don't have the payroll reports for Pitt basketball, and wouldn't share them on the internet if I did. I am basing this on the players we have vs the players we miss out on. As a fanbase we get excited about possibly bringing a player onboard but consistently miss out on the high level difference makers. (They type that our coach absolutely needs to have a chance to be competitive). This tells me we are not as competitive as we need to be in NIL. Our fanbase has historically lagged our peers in giving, so I don't believe we magically have created some competitive NIL situation. On top of that, our previous AD apparently didn't do much to push NIL which is likely one of many reasons she was let go.

Having said all that, I don't think $ is our biggest problem. A good coach who can evaluate talent would have us in a much better spot.
Click to expand...

Listen, we kept Lowe, Leggett, and Austin. Many programs lose their top guys. Capel indicated that Lowe and Leggett took a discount to stay but I doubt it was a significant discount. Those kids aren't going to turn down a million to play at Pitt for 500K. Based on reputable sources who have reported what other players are making, I think it's safe to say Lowe and Leggett are making 500K each. Austin and Corhen probably around 250K. Dunn, GDG, Cummings, Amsal, maybe around 100K. We are probably somewhere in the neighborhood of $2 million. That's enough. Again, WVU is paying 1 guy. I realize they are an outlier but all you need are 3 players. A point, a wing, a big. We paid a big who can't rebound at all. Say what you want about our offensive struggles but rebounding is why we aren't going to the NCAA Tournament. Even a guy like Gary McGhee on this team and we are probably 9-2 in the ACC.
 
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Islanderpanther said:
It’s straightforward…2 mediocre or worse HCs whose ex boss wouldn’t know a quality HC if one bit her on the tailend indiscriminately OVER extended their contracts the first time they showed a pulse ignoring years of other data clearly showing these guys had major flaws.
Click to expand...
So given the coaching situation, what's the new AD doing? Haven't heard from or seen him since his introduction a few months ago. I know he captured a 7 figure donation but has he actually been at the games? Interacting with fans? Certainly has not been interacting with the media
 
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SteelBowl70 said:
Agree Moe

Both programs needed stabilized and had 2 nice years

Both programs had great starts this year starting 3-0 in ACC and getting ranked

Both teams failed miserably in a road showdown for first place

Both teams lost heartbreaking games at home to playoff worthly Clemson teams

And both seasons essentially were ended with losses at home to poor UVa team and crashed and burned with the worst yet to come for basketball

Capel is a good man but he’s no coach unless he has Duke level talent
Click to expand...
There is a very eerie similarity to this years football and basketball teams in how the conference season began; the opponents who defeated each in a similar manner; and the probable outcome, now, for basketball. It's getting old and too predictable, but until both coaches finish their contracts, we fans are stuck with this
 
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Chairman Moe said:
So given the coaching situation, what's the new AD doing? Haven't heard from or seen him since his introduction a few months ago. I know he captured a 7 figure donation but has he actually been at the games? Interacting with fans? Certainly has not been interacting with the media
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I do see him at most games. He was there last night.
 
Sean Miller Fan said:
Listen, we kept Lowe, Leggett, and Austin. Many programs lose their top guys. Capel indicated that Lowe and Leggett took a discount to stay but I doubt it was a significant discount. Those kids aren't going to turn down a million to play at Pitt for 500K. Based on reputable sources who have reported what other players are making, I think it's safe to say Lowe and Leggett are making 500K each. Austin and Corhen probably around 250K. Dunn, GDG, Cummings, Amsal, maybe around 100K. We are probably somewhere in the neighborhood of $2 million. That's enough. Again, WVU is paying 1 guy. I realize they are an outlier but all you need are 3 players. A point, a wing, a big. We paid a big who can't rebound at all. Say what you want about our offensive struggles but rebounding is why we aren't going to the NCAA Tournament. Even a guy like Gary McGhee on this team and we are probably 9-2 in the ACC.
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I seriously wonder if Lowe stuck around "for less" in order to help get his buddy Corhen here? To me, that guy has been a horrible influence on the program, in addition to his poor on-court performances most nights. How different would this team look with a defensive/rebounding-minded big man? I'm sure we could have gotten one for the cost of bonehead.
 
Chairman Moe said:
So given the coaching situation, what's the new AD doing? Haven't heard from or seen him since his introduction a few months ago. I know he captured a 7 figure donation but has he actually been at the games? Interacting with fans? Certainly has not been interacting with the media
Click to expand...
Yea, Moe, he’s been nearly invisible. Bostic interviewed him the other day and stayed clear of any difficult questions. The new AD has some monumental challenges….trying to convince donors to dig deeper when the. 2 men’s sports programs are struggling . It would behoove him to let the University’s constituents what his goals are for men’s FB and hoops….maintaining radio silence during this period isn’t helpful, although I understand he wouldn’t want to make any rash, premature statements on coaching.
 
Rupart33 said:
I don't have the payroll reports for Pitt basketball, and wouldn't share them on the internet if I did. I am basing this on the players we have vs the players we miss out on. As a fanbase we get excited about possibly bringing a player onboard but consistently miss out on the high level difference makers. (They type that our coach absolutely needs to have a chance to be competitive). This tells me we are not as competitive as we need to be in NIL. Our fanbase has historically lagged our peers in giving, so I don't believe we magically have created some competitive NIL situation. On top of that, our previous AD apparently didn't do much to push NIL which is likely one of many reasons she was let go.

Having said all that, I don't think $ is our biggest problem. A good coach who can evaluate talent would have us in a much better spot.
Click to expand...
So you don't know either, but are sure the people you disagree with are wrong. Okay.

We miss out on the high level difference makers for many reasons, and if a coach can't win without 5 5 stars in the starting lineup, he's not a good coach.

Many schools with smaller budgets (some with significantly lower budgets) consistently outperform us, and that has been the case before NIL was a thing. That's the core issue that needs to be resolved, though more money obviously wouldn't hurt either.
 
Sean Miller Fan said:
Listen, we kept Lowe, Leggett, and Austin. Many programs lose their top guys. Capel indicated that Lowe and Leggett took a discount to stay but I doubt it was a significant discount. Those kids aren't going to turn down a million to play at Pitt for 500K. Based on reputable sources who have reported what other players are making, I think it's safe to say Lowe and Leggett are making 500K each. Austin and Corhen probably around 250K. Dunn, GDG, Cummings, Amsal, maybe around 100K. We are probably somewhere in the neighborhood of $2 million. That's enough. Again, WVU is paying 1 guy. I realize they are an outlier but all you need are 3 players. A point, a wing, a big. We paid a big who can't rebound at all. Say what you want about our offensive struggles but rebounding is why we aren't going to the NCAA Tournament. Even a guy like Gary McGhee on this team and we are probably 9-2 in the ACC.
Click to expand...

They're all getting paid apparently. They're professionals. Expectations aren't being met. In the real world when someone is getting paid good money and expectations aren't being met, they are fired or their pay is cut.

It's not just rebounding that is lacking, which it obviously is. Our defense is like Swiss cheese or worse. It's horrible. Forget the offense, which is putrid. If you can't rebound or play defense, you're not going to win most games and won't make any post season tournaments.
 
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ThePanthers said:
Money is a major issue.

Also in the world of mega conferences it’s that much harder to win a championship. I mean if every team were to cycle through and win one, it would take 17 years.

I’d rather play with our peers than drop down to win a championship. And let’s not pretend, if we won the mac most of you would just blow it off as “nothing”.
Click to expand...
If we drop down, the athletic department budget isn't going to be $120m. Start by taking away the $50 million out of the budget you get from the ACC. Anyone that drops down in competition will have a subsequently reduced war chest so no one is guaranteed to win anything at any level. It is a stupid thought.
 
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CrazyPaco said:
If we drop down, the athletic department budget isn't going to be $120m. Start by taking away the $50 million out of the budget you get from the ACC. Anyone that drops down in competition will have a subsequently reduced war chest so no one is guaranteed to win anything at any level. It is a stupid thought.
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Agree. I feel pretty confident saying if we dropped to the MAC, neither our football team or basketball team would win that conference. We probably finish top 5, but, that is the best I could say.
 
Sean Miller Fan said:
Listen, we kept Lowe, Leggett, and Austin. Many programs lose their top guys. Capel indicated that Lowe and Leggett took a discount to stay but I doubt it was a significant discount. Those kids aren't going to turn down a million to play at Pitt for 500K. Based on reputable sources who have reported what other players are making, I think it's safe to say Lowe and Leggett are making 500K each. Austin and Corhen probably around 250K. Dunn, GDG, Cummings, Amsal, maybe around 100K. We are probably somewhere in the neighborhood of $2 million. That's enough. Again, WVU is paying 1 guy. I realize they are an outlier but all you need are 3 players. A point, a wing, a big. We paid a big who can't rebound at all. Say what you want about our offensive struggles but rebounding is why we aren't going to the NCAA Tournament. Even a guy like Gary McGhee on this team and we are probably 9-2 in the ACC.
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Post a link as to where you get those number$? :)
 
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